Is There No Line We Will Not Cross?
Cold_NiTe
Join Date: 2003-09-15 Member: 20875Members
Join Date: 2003-09-15 Member: 20875Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Have we no shame, America?</div> Please read one or both of the following articles. The situation deals with the abduction of a supposed radical Islamic cleric residing in Italy by the CIA.
<u>Sources:</u>
<a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/25/AR2005062501127.html' target='_blank'>Article 1: Italians Detail Lavish CIA Operation</a>
<a href='http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/26/news/cia.php' target='_blank'>Article 2: Italian anger over U.S. terror tactics deepens rift</a>
My position in this matter is probably pretty obvious. I would like to see someone here try their very hardest to defend what has been done. After all, it's just a massive waste of taxmoney, a violation of what the U.S. stands for, and a change of tactics that forego the less expensive method of attempting to gather information from the suspect while collaborating with the local government. No wonder the Italian government is furious. You don't just waltz into another country and do something like this. Not without their knowledge, hell no. That is not only arrogant, but simply astounding. What could they possibly seek to gain by going through things in this manner? Is there something I'm not seeing; something so obvious that it would make perfect sense to ignore the host country like they did? I mean here's what I see; they could have easily set up a join operation to tap this guys phones, wire his house etc. to find out if there was any truth to this. What if the guy is innocent? What the hell are they going to do? Bury it? The Italian government isn't going to stand for that, I should hope. But this man's innocence isn't even the issue, whether he is or not, <i>regardless</i> of that fact, he still deserved to be found out in a just manner, rather than taken first and asked questions later. The manner in which his case was treated reeks of racism and prejudiced judgement. Show me a non-Islamic terrorist suspect who has been treated this way in recent times?
<u>Sources:</u>
<a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/25/AR2005062501127.html' target='_blank'>Article 1: Italians Detail Lavish CIA Operation</a>
<a href='http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/26/news/cia.php' target='_blank'>Article 2: Italian anger over U.S. terror tactics deepens rift</a>
My position in this matter is probably pretty obvious. I would like to see someone here try their very hardest to defend what has been done. After all, it's just a massive waste of taxmoney, a violation of what the U.S. stands for, and a change of tactics that forego the less expensive method of attempting to gather information from the suspect while collaborating with the local government. No wonder the Italian government is furious. You don't just waltz into another country and do something like this. Not without their knowledge, hell no. That is not only arrogant, but simply astounding. What could they possibly seek to gain by going through things in this manner? Is there something I'm not seeing; something so obvious that it would make perfect sense to ignore the host country like they did? I mean here's what I see; they could have easily set up a join operation to tap this guys phones, wire his house etc. to find out if there was any truth to this. What if the guy is innocent? What the hell are they going to do? Bury it? The Italian government isn't going to stand for that, I should hope. But this man's innocence isn't even the issue, whether he is or not, <i>regardless</i> of that fact, he still deserved to be found out in a just manner, rather than taken first and asked questions later. The manner in which his case was treated reeks of racism and prejudiced judgement. Show me a non-Islamic terrorist suspect who has been treated this way in recent times?
Comments
<span style='color:red'>Sirus: Serious discussion please <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--></span>
Oh yes i am serious when i say the only good thing I've ever seen related to the CIA was the American Dad TV series.
feel free to post something if you know of something positive the CIA has done.
When they found him innocent, they marooned him near the albanian border.
The German authorities were investigating the case, but Mr. Bush was on his trip to Germany at the time being, to normalize the relations after the Iraq debate, so it was not mentioned further.
1) We don't actually know yet whether the CIA was working alone or with Italian covert intelligence. That's part of the ongoing investigation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Opposition politicians in Rome have asked the parliamentary intelligence oversight committee to question Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu and Defense Minister Antonio Martino about whether they were aware of and had approved the operation, known in CIA parlance as an "extraordinary rendition." Cases that have come to light in the past have generally proceeded with the cooperation of local officials.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2) The CIA really blew the execution of this one, didn't they? You'd think real, honest-to-goodness spies would be a bit better at covering their tracks--but they were obviously treating their mission as a vacation. $42,000 in hotel costs? Those operatives ought to be fired, if nothing else.
Next, it's pretty obvious that the Italian police are being shunned by CIA operatives, and by their own intelligence agency.
Actually, this is typical. From my understanding, there may be things carried out by the FBI in our own country that local authorties will never know about. This is how certain "unscruplous" activities can go on without the population ever knowing about it.
So it always happens, if not here than in Italy or some other country. It's not really too big of a deal I guess. Thought it would suck to be kidnapped. But what can you do?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Opposition politicians in Rome have asked the parliamentary intelligence oversight committee to question Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu and Defense Minister Antonio Martino about whether they were aware of and had approved the operation, known in CIA parlance as an "extraordinary rendition." Cases that have come to light in the past have generally proceeded with the cooperation of local officials.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh good point. But still, wouldn't the Italian Government speak up for the CIA if it was a joint operation? Or would they abandon them to explain themselves.
The CIA hasn't officially admitted participation in this either. I'm not saying they didn't do it, just pointing out that they aren't going to officially admit it until/unless a CIA operative winds up in jail in Italy for the crime--and maybe not even then. Thats the whole idea of a "covert op". It's not public. =)
You don't think that if the Italians were involved the CIA wouldn't be making that a very salient point in their defense? Honestly, if this was joint operation the CIA would have held multiple press conferences to shift the blame by now.
How much do regular kidnappings cost? probably a bit more than this, with less chance of pulling it off.
You don't think that if the Italians were involved the CIA wouldn't be making that a very salient point in their defense? Honestly, if this was joint operation the CIA would have held multiple press conferences to shift the blame by now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The CIA isn't <i>making</i> a defense, because as I already mentioned, they haven't actually admitted involvement yet. They might be forced to admit involvement eventually, and then we might be able to draw some conclusions from their defense--but for the moment, its still officially a "covert op".
(Edit--Note that I'm speaking based on the situation at the time of the news articles put up by the original post. I have no idea if anything has changed since then.)
I mean, yea thats pretty bad, but as stated, this is nothing that any established nation government including Italy hasnt done before Im sure.
Even the Vatican (separate entity) has one of the worlds historically reknown intelligence sections.