hmm what about making chambers more expensive so that you'd be able to afford your last first chamber at about the same time second hive goes up, this might make aliens too weak in the early game thou
<!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Jun 15 2005, 04:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Jun 15 2005, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Please don't struggle so hard with finding solutions. The solutions are usually the easiest part of the equation, but we need to know how the game behaves first.
If you're not sure yet because you haven't played 3.0.4 enough, that's also a very valid reply. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well if this applies to my solution perhaps if my information is not trusted I can provide demos?
I always give reasons to back up my suggestions and those points are backed up by logic, however if this is not good enough I can show you game demos for interpretation.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Well reasoned suggestions are good. I was mainly pointing my fingers at the massive number of suggestions rather than explanations in this thread so far.
As explained over and over most of the problems occur after or just around hive2 as the massive increase in alien effectiveness overcome the Tech or default (lmg) firepower of the marines.
AA finishes at just around hive 2 so the marines do have access to greater firepower but most of the time they cannot afford to put these tools in the hands of the marines as their res flow usually drops sharply after hive 2.
A look at weapon cost maybe worth while. HMGs are effective enough for their cost so those should be left alone. A reduction in shotgun cost of some amount once AA has been reached should help the marines push out more firepower into the field. A more steady flow of SGs could be helpfull in reducing the overpowering midgame of the aliens and counteract the mini midgame powerhouses aka upgraded leaping skulks.
The second hive is the game breaker/maker, the game should be revolving around denying/securing the second hive.
But there are a few things that really make it too powerful:
Metabolize: It's ridiculous. With innate regen and meta (which is slightly faster than 2 seconds), you basically get regeneration as an inherent quality as a two hive fade. Not to mention it gives back adrenaline. It would be better if metabolize gave no energy at all (or even took away a minor amount) or gave half the health it does now, if you want it to give the same amount of energy.
When meta fades are out on the field, they hit and run (with focus) faster than you can load your clip and come back when you've got your pants down.
Slow/expensive marine tech: There are five essential components of the marine game: HMGs, shotguns, armor 1, PG tech, and the turret factory. Anything else is redundant (though you should at least get W1). The marine res game is tighter than Superman's spandex if you've got two teams that go toe to toe with each other. Getting enough res and then getting that res in time to research those five vital technologies is a challenge in 3.0.4. We took a step in the right direction by shortening the time of the AA by twenty seconds, but I think a cost reduction to 25 or maybe even 20 would level the playing field (earlier HMGs will make fading so much more difficult. An AA rush might be incredibly broken, though).
Leaping skulks: Leap skulks basically nullify marine's aim. Silence+focus leap skulks can be just as unfair as a celerity+focus fade. I'd like to see leap remain in game, but skulks can become just as effective fighters as fades can once the second hive is up.
The game is centered around denying or securing the second hive. But the marine side of the equation is ignored. The aliens have it fairly easy to defend a second hive with MCs, fades and lerks. You need to have marines with serious hardware and tech to force their hand (in a siege spot). The problem is that most marines won't have the res to afford that hardware and tech when the second hive is going up.
A possible solution could be making weapon costs tied to the arms lab. More upgrades means cheaper weapons. After all, the arms lab makes weapons and armor more efficient, why not make the weapon fabrication process more efficient as well?
What if focus dealt normal damage, but then did the rest of the damage over time?
Like a focus skulk bites you, deals 75, then the other 75 is drained into you as poisin over 3 seconds. Would be a lot more fun than just getting insta killed like you have now, and a skilled commander could beat the poisin with enough medpacks. Focus would still be an awesome ability, but just less powerful overall.
Also, change the grenades into napalm nades. TFC style or something. They suck right now!
I agree for the most part with what rapier said. The game is still slightly alien baised, but it really has alot to do with hitreg issues and whatnot still, servers with good hitreg hit pretty even, servers with poor hitreg end up wildly alien biased.
Biggest issues I see right now... 2nd hive dependance. Pub games are becoming all about the lockdown of hive 2, and competitive games about simply taking out the aliens before they REACH hive 2. once second hive is up the game quickly becomes a slippery slope for marines, a good team won't let marines take out thier hive once they can leap, meta, and bile. Leap is too powerful in the hands of a good player, meta heals too fast allowing fades near a hive to instantly get back into the action, and bile is too easy to use without showing your face much of the game in NS maps, and because of that, once a gorge starts biling it's often hard to do anything about it, short of wasting res on largely useless GLs, which we really don't want to do. Marines can't block bilebombs by standing in the way. Combined with the fact that teams use the second hive to get up thier second chamber, which is probably SC so fades skulks and lerks can drop JPs like no tommorrow with focus, second hive is too powerfull for aliens, and too big a loss if they can't get it. Second hive should not be the only focus of action in the game, currently it is.
The three chambers are also no where near balanced to eachother. Focus/SC is too nessicary to take out jetpacks which is throwing us into a set MC/SC/DC order. It isn't as bad as the old DC/MC/SC, as pubs still mix up a fair bit, MC seems to be VERY established as the first chamber, with DC now being largely useless. I blame the fact that, although DC's upgrade abilities are fairly balanced with the other chamber's abilities, it basicly has no innate advantage at all. Cloaking/scent is INCREADIBLY usefull, as is hive warp and high speed adren regen. An MC can have a fade fully adren'ed out faster then a DC can heal a skulk to full from red. DCs should have an innate chamber ability that helps in the early game again, otherwize they will always be left to last in favor of MCs and SCs which wildly help lifeforms in combat.
Hive based armor upgrades. In the field these things are basicly useless, but they are also nessicary to take down turtled up marines in pubs... Mostly because the onos is just WAY too useless. Hive based armor up's are just increasing hive 2 dependance.
Marine res flow is too tight. They could do with some cost reductions to offset the hundreds of res aliens save in upgrade costs. Cost reductions need to be applicable to items bought multiple times throughout the game, as this is a problem the whole game through, not just at the beginning or just at the end.
FFS make the nades like TFC grenades... by that I mean let you prime them while firing any other gun you want and throw them anytime you want. You press a button to prime the grenade, and can do whatever you want with your weapons, and you press another button to throw the nade (while the nade is primed have a small grenade icon on the side of the sceen). It would be real useful...
As long as you have to switch to them and go through the 10 second throw time they will suck...
Yeah, i'm starting to agree with the rest here. Game's fine before second hive (which should be even more so with the 3.0.5 hitboxes), but the sudden gap aliens make post second hive is gigantic and makes it unfairly hard to win for marines.
I remember a dev saying the 2hive issue is too big to be fixed in a small patch, but fact is the issue is too big to be ignored, long-term or short-term.
As others said, aliens suddenly get too many things, all at once.
I'm sure I don't need to explain what makes each of these things powerful, anyone here could make an essay of it. I'd like to add, though, that especially the combination of a second upgrade, metabolize, and 2nd hive armor makes fades <b> WAY</b> too powerful.
The moment the second hive goes up, aliens get all these goodies and marines will still be at wu2, au1, phase tech, and you better pray you clicked your advanced armory button sometime before the hive was up.
Result: Aliens wipe the floor with the marines, and the marines don't get to fight back until they get proto tech, which is needed to beat 2hive aliens. Even so, good alien teams will just not let it come to proto once the hive is up.
Everyone pours their early game resources into making sure it never comes to 2hives (for good reason), and no one will have proto tech the moment they need it.
Marines need end-game tech to beat mid-game aliens. Their mid-game tech (which consists of little more than HMGs and perhaps motion tracking) simply does not cut it against the things listed above.
Also can some of the people here stop pretending they're in the clanned section of I&S, they're asking what's wrong with the game, not to be reminded of how useless handgrenades are for the 5000th time.
Meta shouldn't give health. The adrenaline boost is a huge enough boost for fades who know how to use it. Maybe then teams would go for DCs as a second chamber rather than just saying "SC now."
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Jun 16 2005, 06:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Jun 16 2005, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Meta shouldn't give health. The adrenaline boost is a huge enough boost for fades who know how to use it. Maybe then teams would go for DCs as a second chamber rather than just saying "SC now." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> SC will still be needed for focus. focus is the only thing that makes dealing with JP manageable, and it helps against HA at least as much as cara or regen. Really, there is too much late game dependance on focus, expecially considering it's original intent was to make the early game more skulk friendly if the team went sensory first. Not to mention it is one of the most widely seen as unfair Co upgrades.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to add, though, that especially the combination of a second upgrade, metabolize, and 2nd hive armor makes fades WAY too powerful. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But none of these have changed significantly in 3.0. Fades at hive 2 are pretty much as combat effective as they were in beta5 ( with the exception of innate regen, the chamber order and sc provided sof, but I assume you were not including those for a reason ).
In NS 3.0, denial of the 2nd hive <b>should</b> be a game winner. If marines can lock down both hives or kill a building second hive they should have a significant advantage. WHat you are saying buggy is that failure to deny the second hive is a definate game loser, and we all agree tha this has to be rectified. If the aliens build hive2, then it should be a relatively equal match, with other factors such as res control, upgrades and rfk being important factors too.
3.0.x patches are released without any significnat playtesting because we simply edit balance.txt and regenerate the server binaries. As soon as we make functional changes to the code then we have to go through a QA cycle again. This delays the release of the 3.0.x patch and takes from 3.1 testing. So although your suggestions are welcome, you need to post them in I&S so they can be considered for 3.1.
3.0.5 should be number tweaks only. If we cannot bring balace to mid tech marines vs hive2 aliens then we have to make a decision to take the time to do a full 3.0.5 development cycle ( code changes -> pt testing with optional cm testing afterwards ) or simply wait until 3.1 to address the problems. Remember, there are gameplay changes in 3.1 that will require balance tweaks anyway, so we should avoid rewriting code in 3.0 because we'll most likely have to do it again in 3.1 anyway.
If only we could give up our day jobs and work on NS fulltime <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> So much to do, so little time but we'll get there <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
puzl, the 2nd hive has been a problem for a long time...
but where you say <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the aliens build hive2, then it should be a relatively equal match, with other factors such as res control, upgrades and rfk being important factors too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is true right now. The marines have to have proto tech, a good amount of nodes, and play smart to stand a chance against two hive aliens. I don't think it's balanced.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
That's why I used the word "should" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> We're aware of the current problems, and we've all been watching demos of 3.0.x competitive matches where your claim is fairly obvious. The idea of this topic is to survey the competitive players for opinions on what is wrong and why they are wrong.
The thing is though, if we make mid-tech vs hive 2 balanced, then proto vs hive 2 will be unbalanced and ye old HA/JP rush will be what needs attention.
So in 3.0.4
early tech vs 1 hive is close to balanced.
early tech vs hive 2 is as it should be. Aliens should dominate marines who haven't developed technology.
mid tech vs hive 2 is unbalanced. Marines with some ups, a few weapons and a good comm should be able to hold their own - skill and stragey shoud determine the outcome at this stage.
late ( proto ) tech vs hive 2 is about right.
anything vs 3 hives is about right too. There should be little or no chance of a marine team winning against 3 hives, unless they can kill a hive, in which case it reverts to one of the above stages.
Perhaps simply removing the armour bonus for hives would help, but that'll hurt the onos and the fade a lot, which is a very risky change to go straight to release with. I'd rather accept the current problems for the lifetime of 3.0 than risk making it *much* worse. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what I've written here, some of you know a lot more about NS balance than I do <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So, back on topic:
In 3.0.4 the mid-tech marine game is no match for hive2/2 chamber aliens. In particular leaping skulks do sustained damage to the marine team and the meta fade /celerity lerk control the development of the game and push the marines down the slippery slope that results from an inability to impliment the required recovery strategy ( aka "good luck taking down hive2 vs fades" )
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Jun 16 2005, 08:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Jun 16 2005, 08:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing is though, if we make mid-tech vs hive 2 balanced, then proto vs hive 2 will be unbalanced and ye old HA/JP rush will be what needs attention. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are options that have been mentioned that avoid this very problem.
Are you saying that proto tech should be pretty equivalent to mid marine tech? Because you just said that high proto tech should be on par with hive 2 but so should mid tech.
I think a fully teched marine team should not be on par with hive 3 aliens, but it should be better than hive 2 aliens.
However, Proto tech with a lack of Arms Lab tech and strategy should still fall to hive 2.
The proto rush should be weak without the support of the arms lab. Maybe make base HA lower, but give it more substantial increases with armor upgrades. This makes acid rocket or no acid rocket a big variable.
You should define which items/ups belong in each of these "tech levels"
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Jun 16 2005, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jun 16 2005, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Random thought: AA making shotguns cheaper. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> if this is done it may be a pain to rebalance meta... [may]
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited June 2005
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are you saying that proto tech should be pretty equivalent to mid marine tech? Because you just said that high proto tech should be on par with hive 2 but so should mid tech. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't recall saying that proto tech should be on par with mid marine tech, if you can quote the relevant sections I can clarify my position.
I agree that a proto rush should be weak without armslab upgrades, but it should be a viable but risky option.
I also agree that a fully teched marine team should be weaker than 3 hive aliens but stronger than 2 hive aliens. If marines face three hives, then they should be forced into a last ditch hive assaust to regain any chance of defeating the aliens.
Hive 2 is where the change needs to happen, and I think hive 2 is where most of disagreement is. We need to be careful when naming tech combinations that should be viable against hive2. If the number of hive2 counters are limited then these counters will quickly become the only options.
The important thing to do now is to ensure that we get 3.0.x to a stage where there is a 50/50 chance of each team winning. In 3.1 we can address the broader issues with more radical changes. But remember, the critical changes from beta5->3.0 can be listed on one hand. It takes a suprisingly small tweak in core gameplay variables to produce a very large shift in overall balance.
The other thing I should state at this point is that the above is my own personal viewpoint. I am not the game's designer, and I am certainly not the most experienced NS player on the dev team. If you think I'm am off the mark, feel free to point out where. I have thick skin <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The other thing I should state at this point is that the above is my own personal viewpoint. I am not the game's designer, and I am certainly not the most experienced NS player on the dev team. If you think I'm am off the mark, feel free to point out where. I have thick skin<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad somebody does, ever since being involved with the NS community I have seen Kleenex stock rise 25%.
Roffles.
And you are right about hive 2. Inefficent tech before it, too effective after it (based on marine tech/RTs at the time).
<!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 16 2005, 12:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 16 2005, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-coris+Jun 16 2005, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jun 16 2005, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Random thought: AA making shotguns cheaper. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> if this is done it may be a pain to rebalance meta... [may]
but yeah this is pretty cool idea <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> actally giving this a bit of a change, maybe higher level weapon upgrades could make shotguns cheaper, i.e 9 res at wep 1, 8 res at wep 2, 7 res at wep 3?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 16 2005, 06:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 16 2005, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 16 2005, 12:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 16 2005, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-coris+Jun 16 2005, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jun 16 2005, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Random thought: AA making shotguns cheaper. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> if this is done it may be a pain to rebalance meta... [may]
but yeah this is pretty cool idea <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> actally giving this a bit of a change, maybe higher level weapon upgrades could make shotguns cheaper, i.e 9 res at wep 1, 8 res at wep 2, 7 res at wep 3? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Anything that costs 5 res or more in NS costs a multiple of 5 res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->mid tech vs hive 2 is unbalanced. Marines with some ups, a few weapons and a good comm should be able to hold their own - skill and stragey shoud determine the outcome at this stage.
late ( proto ) tech vs hive 2 is about right.
anything vs 3 hives is about right too. There should be little or no chance of a marine team winning against 3 hives, unless they can kill a hive, in which case it reverts to one of the above stages<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what i was talking about ^^
Mid tech in unbalanced, and should be on par with hive 2, but proto tech is right where it should be currently?
I think that the common conception is that proto tech is needed to stand a chance against hive 2, but that it isn't really more powerful. It sounds like you want to bring mid tech to the level that proto tech is at now, but leave proto how it is.
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Jun 16 2005, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Jun 16 2005, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 16 2005, 06:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 16 2005, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 16 2005, 12:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 16 2005, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-coris+Jun 16 2005, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jun 16 2005, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Random thought: AA making shotguns cheaper. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> if this is done it may be a pain to rebalance meta... [may]
but yeah this is pretty cool idea <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> actally giving this a bit of a change, maybe higher level weapon upgrades could make shotguns cheaper, i.e 9 res at wep 1, 8 res at wep 2, 7 res at wep 3? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anything that costs 5 res or more in NS costs a multiple of 5 res.
Do you want to drop shotguns to 5? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose seven or eight would be ok since comms would face the choice whether to drop 4 sgs or 2 hmgs (well almost).
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Jun 16 2005, 01:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Jun 16 2005, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 16 2005, 06:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 16 2005, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 16 2005, 12:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 16 2005, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-coris+Jun 16 2005, 11:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jun 16 2005, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Random thought: AA making shotguns cheaper. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> if this is done it may be a pain to rebalance meta... [may]
but yeah this is pretty cool idea <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> actally giving this a bit of a change, maybe higher level weapon upgrades could make shotguns cheaper, i.e 9 res at wep 1, 8 res at wep 2, 7 res at wep 3? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anything that costs 5 res or more in NS costs a multiple of 5 res.
Do you want to drop shotguns to 5?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i don't understand you, are you saying that you can't code something to cost anything besides 1,2,3,4,5,10,15,20,25,30... res?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Yes. Or more precisely, marine shouldn't need full tech to beat hive2. The marines should be able to defer proto tech and have a resonable chance of defeating hive2 aliens.
Of course, there should also be a viable marine strategies that include early proto tech.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 16 2005, 08:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 16 2005, 08:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i don't understand you, are you saying that you can't code something to cost anything besides 1,2,3,4,5,10,15,20,25,30... res? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, but we want to avoid it. It's more of a usability/interface issue than programming/balancing. Just as important for us to consider that we aren't moving in a worse direction in those other fields when attempting to add balance.
<!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Jun 16 2005, 03:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Jun 16 2005, 03:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 16 2005, 08:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 16 2005, 08:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i don't understand you, are you saying that you can't code something to cost anything besides 1,2,3,4,5,10,15,20,25,30... res? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, but we want to avoid it. It's more of a usability/interface issue than programming/balancing. Just as important for us to consider that we aren't moving in a worse direction in those other fields when attempting to add balance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Get out of that mindset. Things that cost less then 15 need to be tweakable in terms of balance. The cost ratio between 5-10 and 10-15 is too steep for most things. Really, in any professional level RTS balanceing you need to reserve yourself to the fact that you may need to avoid round numbers. Balance > astetics.
I haven't read most of this thread but here are my thoughts.
Right now the game is fairly balanced when it comes to which side wins, but that doesn't necessarily mean everything in the game is balanced. Right now (still), the only option for marines is to block the aliens from a second hive, and they can achieve this a reasonable percentage of the time with rushing or sieging now that everyone has figured out this is the main strategic goal. The problem is this tends to railroad the games into similar outcomes every time: the game hinges on the battle for that second hive in every game, and this is where 95% of the games are won or lost. Previously proto tech alleviated this to some degree: a jetpack rush was a viable strat for example. With the recent buffs to sensory and free upgrades, though, jetpacks don't have enough longevity to fight against 2 hive aliens unless the marines already have map domination. To work against 2 hives, jetpacks would need a substantial armor or maneuverability boost, and that might bring them out of balance. Maybe make them weak to spores (double damage or they disable the jetpack altogether by clogging it) or some other specialized attack so that hordes of focus skulks can't take them down but the aliens still have a counter.
Comments
If you're not sure yet because you haven't played 3.0.4 enough, that's also a very valid reply. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well if this applies to my solution perhaps if my information is not trusted I can provide demos?
I always give reasons to back up my suggestions and those points are backed up by logic, however if this is not good enough I can show you game demos for interpretation.
AA finishes at just around hive 2 so the marines do have access to greater firepower but most of the time they cannot afford to put these tools in the hands of the marines as their res flow usually drops sharply after hive 2.
A look at weapon cost maybe worth while. HMGs are effective enough for their cost so those should be left alone. A reduction in shotgun cost of some amount once AA has been reached should help the marines push out more firepower into the field. A more steady flow of SGs could be helpfull in reducing the overpowering midgame of the aliens and counteract the mini midgame powerhouses aka upgraded leaping skulks.
But there are a few things that really make it too powerful:
Metabolize: It's ridiculous. With innate regen and meta (which is slightly faster than 2 seconds), you basically get regeneration as an inherent quality as a two hive fade. Not to mention it gives back adrenaline. It would be better if metabolize gave no energy at all (or even took away a minor amount) or gave half the health it does now, if you want it to give the same amount of energy.
When meta fades are out on the field, they hit and run (with focus) faster than you can load your clip and come back when you've got your pants down.
Slow/expensive marine tech: There are five essential components of the marine game: HMGs, shotguns, armor 1, PG tech, and the turret factory. Anything else is redundant (though you should at least get W1). The marine res game is tighter than Superman's spandex if you've got two teams that go toe to toe with each other. Getting enough res and then getting that res in time to research those five vital technologies is a challenge in 3.0.4. We took a step in the right direction by shortening the time of the AA by twenty seconds, but I think a cost reduction to 25 or maybe even 20 would level the playing field (earlier HMGs will make fading so much more difficult. An AA rush might be incredibly broken, though).
Leaping skulks: Leap skulks basically nullify marine's aim. Silence+focus leap skulks can be just as unfair as a celerity+focus fade. I'd like to see leap remain in game, but skulks can become just as effective fighters as fades can once the second hive is up.
The game is centered around denying or securing the second hive. But the marine side of the equation is ignored. The aliens have it fairly easy to defend a second hive with MCs, fades and lerks. You need to have marines with serious hardware and tech to force their hand (in a siege spot). The problem is that most marines won't have the res to afford that hardware and tech when the second hive is going up.
A possible solution could be making weapon costs tied to the arms lab. More upgrades means cheaper weapons. After all, the arms lab makes weapons and armor more efficient, why not make the weapon fabrication process more efficient as well?
Like a focus skulk bites you, deals 75, then the other 75 is drained into you as poisin over 3 seconds. Would be a lot more fun than just getting insta killed like you have now, and a skilled commander could beat the poisin with enough medpacks. Focus would still be an awesome ability, but just less powerful overall.
Also, change the grenades into napalm nades. TFC style or something. They suck right now!
Biggest issues I see right now... 2nd hive dependance. Pub games are becoming all about the lockdown of hive 2, and competitive games about simply taking out the aliens before they REACH hive 2. once second hive is up the game quickly becomes a slippery slope for marines, a good team won't let marines take out thier hive once they can leap, meta, and bile. Leap is too powerful in the hands of a good player, meta heals too fast allowing fades near a hive to instantly get back into the action, and bile is too easy to use without showing your face much of the game in NS maps, and because of that, once a gorge starts biling it's often hard to do anything about it, short of wasting res on largely useless GLs, which we really don't want to do. Marines can't block bilebombs by standing in the way. Combined with the fact that teams use the second hive to get up thier second chamber, which is probably SC so fades skulks and lerks can drop JPs like no tommorrow with focus, second hive is too powerfull for aliens, and too big a loss if they can't get it. Second hive should not be the only focus of action in the game, currently it is.
The three chambers are also no where near balanced to eachother. Focus/SC is too nessicary to take out jetpacks which is throwing us into a set MC/SC/DC order. It isn't as bad as the old DC/MC/SC, as pubs still mix up a fair bit, MC seems to be VERY established as the first chamber, with DC now being largely useless. I blame the fact that, although DC's upgrade abilities are fairly balanced with the other chamber's abilities, it basicly has no innate advantage at all. Cloaking/scent is INCREADIBLY usefull, as is hive warp and high speed adren regen. An MC can have a fade fully adren'ed out faster then a DC can heal a skulk to full from red. DCs should have an innate chamber ability that helps in the early game again, otherwize they will always be left to last in favor of MCs and SCs which wildly help lifeforms in combat.
Hive based armor upgrades. In the field these things are basicly useless, but they are also nessicary to take down turtled up marines in pubs... Mostly because the onos is just WAY too useless. Hive based armor up's are just increasing hive 2 dependance.
Marine res flow is too tight. They could do with some cost reductions to offset the hundreds of res aliens save in upgrade costs. Cost reductions need to be applicable to items bought multiple times throughout the game, as this is a problem the whole game through, not just at the beginning or just at the end.
As long as you have to switch to them and go through the 10 second throw time they will suck...
I remember a dev saying the 2hive issue is too big to be fixed in a small patch, but fact is the issue is too big to be ignored, long-term or short-term.
As others said, aliens suddenly get too many things, all at once.
- Second upgrade (SoF/Focus, or Regen/Cara)
- 2nd level hive armor
- Leap
- Umbra
- Metabolize
- Bilebomb
- Stomp
I'm sure I don't need to explain what makes each of these things powerful, anyone here could make an essay of it. I'd like to add, though, that especially the combination of a second upgrade, metabolize, and 2nd hive armor makes fades <b> WAY</b> too powerful.
The moment the second hive goes up, aliens get all these goodies and marines will still be at wu2, au1, phase tech, and you better pray you clicked your advanced armory button sometime before the hive was up.
Result: Aliens wipe the floor with the marines, and the marines don't get to fight back until they get proto tech, which is needed to beat 2hive aliens. Even so, good alien teams will just not let it come to proto once the hive is up.
Everyone pours their early game resources into making sure it never comes to 2hives (for good reason), and no one will have proto tech the moment they need it.
Marines need end-game tech to beat mid-game aliens. Their mid-game tech (which consists of little more than HMGs and perhaps motion tracking) simply does not cut it against the things listed above.
Also can some of the people here stop pretending they're in the clanned section of I&S, they're asking what's wrong with the game, not to be reminded of how useless handgrenades are for the 5000th time.
SC will still be needed for focus. focus is the only thing that makes dealing with JP manageable, and it helps against HA at least as much as cara or regen. Really, there is too much late game dependance on focus, expecially considering it's original intent was to make the early game more skulk friendly if the team went sensory first. Not to mention it is one of the most widely seen as unfair Co upgrades.
I'd like to add, though, that especially the combination of a second upgrade, metabolize, and 2nd hive armor makes fades WAY too powerful.
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But none of these have changed significantly in 3.0. Fades at hive 2 are pretty much as combat effective as they were in beta5 ( with the exception of innate regen, the chamber order and sc provided sof, but I assume you were not including those for a reason ).
In NS 3.0, denial of the 2nd hive <b>should</b> be a game winner. If marines can lock down both hives or kill a building second hive they should have a significant advantage. WHat you are saying buggy is that failure to deny the second hive is a definate game loser, and we all agree tha this has to be rectified. If the aliens build hive2, then it should be a relatively equal match, with other factors such as res control, upgrades and rfk being important factors too.
3.0.x patches are released without any significnat playtesting because we simply edit balance.txt and regenerate the server binaries. As soon as we make functional changes to the code then we have to go through a QA cycle again. This delays the release of the 3.0.x patch and takes from 3.1 testing. So although your suggestions are welcome, you need to post them in I&S so they can be considered for 3.1.
3.0.5 should be number tweaks only. If we cannot bring balace to mid tech marines vs hive2 aliens then we have to make a decision to take the time to do a full 3.0.5 development cycle ( code changes -> pt testing with optional cm testing afterwards ) or simply wait until 3.1 to address the problems. Remember, there are gameplay changes in 3.1 that will require balance tweaks anyway, so we should avoid rewriting code in 3.0 because we'll most likely have to do it again in 3.1 anyway.
If only we could give up our day jobs and work on NS fulltime <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> So much to do, so little time but we'll get there <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
but where you say
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the aliens build hive2, then it should be a relatively equal match, with other factors such as res control, upgrades and rfk being important factors too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is true right now. The marines have to have proto tech, a good amount of nodes, and play smart to stand a chance against two hive aliens. I don't think it's balanced.
The thing is though, if we make mid-tech vs hive 2 balanced, then proto vs hive 2 will be unbalanced and ye old HA/JP rush will be what needs attention.
So in 3.0.4
early tech vs 1 hive is close to balanced.
early tech vs hive 2 is as it should be. Aliens should dominate marines who haven't developed technology.
mid tech vs hive 2 is unbalanced. Marines with some ups, a few weapons and a good comm should be able to hold their own - skill and stragey shoud determine the outcome at this stage.
late ( proto ) tech vs hive 2 is about right.
anything vs 3 hives is about right too. There should be little or no chance of a marine team winning against 3 hives, unless they can kill a hive, in which case it reverts to one of the above stages.
Perhaps simply removing the armour bonus for hives would help, but that'll hurt the onos and the fade a lot, which is a very risky change to go straight to release with. I'd rather accept the current problems for the lifetime of 3.0 than risk making it *much* worse. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what I've written here, some of you know a lot more about NS balance than I do <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So, back on topic:
In 3.0.4 the mid-tech marine game is no match for hive2/2 chamber aliens. In particular leaping skulks do sustained damage to the marine team and the meta fade /celerity lerk control the development of the game and push the marines down the slippery slope that results from an inability to impliment the required recovery strategy ( aka "good luck taking down hive2 vs fades" )
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There are options that have been mentioned that avoid this very problem.
Are you saying that proto tech should be pretty equivalent to mid marine tech? Because you just said that high proto tech should be on par with hive 2 but so should mid tech.
I think a fully teched marine team should not be on par with hive 3 aliens, but it should be better than hive 2 aliens.
However, Proto tech with a lack of Arms Lab tech and strategy should still fall to hive 2.
The proto rush should be weak without the support of the arms lab. Maybe make base HA lower, but give it more substantial increases with armor upgrades. This makes acid rocket or no acid rocket a big variable.
You should define which items/ups belong in each of these "tech levels"
if this is done it may be a pain to rebalance meta... [may]
but yeah this is pretty cool idea
Are you saying that proto tech should be pretty equivalent to mid marine tech? Because you just said that high proto tech should be on par with hive 2 but so should mid tech.
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I don't recall saying that proto tech should be on par with mid marine tech, if you can quote the relevant sections I can clarify my position.
I agree that a proto rush should be weak without armslab upgrades, but it should be a viable but risky option.
I also agree that a fully teched marine team should be weaker than 3 hive aliens but stronger than 2 hive aliens. If marines face three hives, then they should be forced into a last ditch hive assaust to regain any chance of defeating the aliens.
Hive 2 is where the change needs to happen, and I think hive 2 is where most of disagreement is. We need to be careful when naming tech combinations that should be viable against hive2. If the number of hive2 counters are limited then these counters will quickly become the only options.
The important thing to do now is to ensure that we get 3.0.x to a stage where there is a 50/50 chance of each team winning. In 3.1 we can address the broader issues with more radical changes. But remember, the critical changes from beta5->3.0 can be listed on one hand. It takes a suprisingly small tweak in core gameplay variables to produce a very large shift in overall balance.
The other thing I should state at this point is that the above is my own personal viewpoint. I am not the game's designer, and I am certainly not the most experienced NS player on the dev team. If you think I'm am off the mark, feel free to point out where. I have thick skin <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm glad somebody does, ever since being involved with the NS community I have seen Kleenex stock rise 25%.
Roffles.
And you are right about hive 2. Inefficent tech before it, too effective after it (based on marine tech/RTs at the time).
if this is done it may be a pain to rebalance meta... [may]
but yeah this is pretty cool idea <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
actally giving this a bit of a change, maybe higher level weapon upgrades could make shotguns cheaper, i.e 9 res at wep 1, 8 res at wep 2, 7 res at wep 3?
if this is done it may be a pain to rebalance meta... [may]
but yeah this is pretty cool idea <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actally giving this a bit of a change, maybe higher level weapon upgrades could make shotguns cheaper, i.e 9 res at wep 1, 8 res at wep 2, 7 res at wep 3? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anything that costs 5 res or more in NS costs a multiple of 5 res.
Do you want to drop shotguns to 5?
late ( proto ) tech vs hive 2 is about right.
anything vs 3 hives is about right too. There should be little or no chance of a marine team winning against 3 hives, unless they can kill a hive, in which case it reverts to one of the above stages<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what i was talking about ^^
Mid tech in unbalanced, and should be on par with hive 2, but proto tech is right where it should be currently?
I think that the common conception is that proto tech is needed to stand a chance against hive 2, but that it isn't really more powerful. It sounds like you want to bring mid tech to the level that proto tech is at now, but leave proto how it is.
if this is done it may be a pain to rebalance meta... [may]
but yeah this is pretty cool idea <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actally giving this a bit of a change, maybe higher level weapon upgrades could make shotguns cheaper, i.e 9 res at wep 1, 8 res at wep 2, 7 res at wep 3? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anything that costs 5 res or more in NS costs a multiple of 5 res.
Do you want to drop shotguns to 5? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose seven or eight would be ok since comms would face the choice whether to drop 4 sgs or 2 hmgs (well almost).
if this is done it may be a pain to rebalance meta... [may]
but yeah this is pretty cool idea <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actally giving this a bit of a change, maybe higher level weapon upgrades could make shotguns cheaper, i.e 9 res at wep 1, 8 res at wep 2, 7 res at wep 3? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anything that costs 5 res or more in NS costs a multiple of 5 res.
Do you want to drop shotguns to 5?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't understand you, are you saying that you can't code something to cost anything besides 1,2,3,4,5,10,15,20,25,30... res?
Of course, there should also be a viable marine strategies that include early proto tech.
No, but we want to avoid it. It's more of a usability/interface issue than programming/balancing. Just as important for us to consider that we aren't moving in a worse direction in those other fields when attempting to add balance.
No, but we want to avoid it. It's more of a usability/interface issue than programming/balancing. Just as important for us to consider that we aren't moving in a worse direction in those other fields when attempting to add balance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get out of that mindset. Things that cost less then 15 need to be tweakable in terms of balance. The cost ratio between 5-10 and 10-15 is too steep for most things. Really, in any professional level RTS balanceing you need to reserve yourself to the fact that you may need to avoid round numbers. Balance > astetics.
Right now the game is fairly balanced when it comes to which side wins, but that doesn't necessarily mean everything in the game is balanced. Right now (still), the only option for marines is to block the aliens from a second hive, and they can achieve this a reasonable percentage of the time with rushing or sieging now that everyone has figured out this is the main strategic goal. The problem is this tends to railroad the games into similar outcomes every time: the game hinges on the battle for that second hive in every game, and this is where 95% of the games are won or lost. Previously proto tech alleviated this to some degree: a jetpack rush was a viable strat for example. With the recent buffs to sensory and free upgrades, though, jetpacks don't have enough longevity to fight against 2 hive aliens unless the marines already have map domination. To work against 2 hives, jetpacks would need a substantial armor or maneuverability boost, and that might bring them out of balance. Maybe make them weak to spores (double damage or they disable the jetpack altogether by clogging it) or some other specialized attack so that hordes of focus skulks can't take them down but the aliens still have a counter.