Imba, Imba, Imba! (long Post)
Ballisto
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Pre fade game, post fade game</div> I've seen complaining about extra +5 armor, and about fade imbalance, but I've never seen anything about the big picture.
The way I see it, there are two parts of any ns game: pre fade, and post fade.
Scroll to the end for a summary.
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Pre fade: the initial res war. You get the most gorges you see at a time, the most scrambled eggs, the relocations, the skulk rushes.
Judging from my experience on tactical gamer (teamwork community), marines have the advantage during this part. Eggs go down more easily than 2 marines building a res tower, and 2 marines to build a res tower are easier to replace than a gorge. A gorge and a skulk bodyguard still go down pretty easily.
Skulks also have no upgrades and no leap at this point. Marines have ranged weapons and take 3 bites to kill (you can't always get a para in).
Early game no-celerity-no-leap skulks have a hard time getting groups of marines out of big, open areas and long hallways (think cargo on tantith, think generator on nothing). Three marines who are smart enough to stay far from the door when they hear aliens can defend an area long enough to knife down an rt.
At this point aliens have an easier job saving rts (they get the warning, marines are vulnerable when knifing). Aliens are less vulnerable because they can hide behind the rt and in some cases escape easily (think station alpha on eclipse, or double res on tantith or rampage). Marine can rebuild rts much more easily though. It's even enough.
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Post fade: after the unkillable fade appears.
You know the unkillable fades that wreak havoc. The ones with 42-3 endgame scores. They make it impossible for 1-2 marine groups to do much and make it very hard for even an entire team to do anything.
Most importantly, he tips the balance in the res war. While marines and skulks are pretty even when battling over an rt (whether it's alien or marine), fades will crush a few marines sent in to save an rt. And they'll crush 2 marines knifing, even if one is covering. And unlike marines, when faced with a force he can't handle (3 lmgs, 2 shotguns) headed his way, he can run and immediately hit the other side of the map.
Fades DO die, whether from newbness, or from a smart marine doing a good block or a marine in the wrong place at the right time for a retreating fade. But if they do enough damage first, it often doesn't matter.
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Conclusion:
Now that I have those out of the way, I'd like to say that against a not stupid alien team, marines can only win by winning the early game res war. They might win it with a relocate (think cargo on tantith); they might win it by killing gorge eggs; they might win it by gunning down rts; they might win it by just being better shots and owning the skulks in the field.
Sneaky hiverushes do sometimes win games (hit one hive, hit the other --> ping of death), but they require a sneaky marine, a lot of luck, and no smart aliens who mention "it's too quiet" and then check the hives. Against an alien team with res, you'll see hives rebuilding right after they barely go down and LOTs of ocs up. If the aliens lose their second hive at the cost of all marine rts (with the fade surviving), they've won (as long as they can rebuild/build the other hive).
Sometimes marines win the res war so well that by the time the aliens get a fade, the marines have a map of rts, lots of shotguns, and solid upgrades to respond. They also have hmgs for every marine that make skulks useless.
Sometimes they even win the res war so well that they can electrify all their rts to make them skulkproof, and can focus on keeping the aliens at 1 hive to keep it that way (1 hive fades have a hard time killing an eleced rt without gorge support).
I have to mention 2 hives as well... that's another turning point. With a second hive, skulks are MUCH more effective against marines, and fades have healing at their fingertips in metabolize - they can be constantly harassing, they don't have to go back to the hive for a heal!
An alien team without a fade... well they're going to get owned. I've seen games won by lerks and good leap skulks alone. They carried out fade functions to win. Both can own a solo marine, both can run when they get in trouble.
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Conclusion conclusion:
The early (or not-so-early) good fade turns a slightly marine stacked reswar into a one sided one pretty quickly. After that point, the slippery slope begins, and marines can only recover with luck or brilliant comming and teamwork.
This is where ns needs work. Maybe slight combat tweaks, but I think the solution lies in the alien res system.
The way I see it, there are two parts of any ns game: pre fade, and post fade.
Scroll to the end for a summary.
----
Pre fade: the initial res war. You get the most gorges you see at a time, the most scrambled eggs, the relocations, the skulk rushes.
Judging from my experience on tactical gamer (teamwork community), marines have the advantage during this part. Eggs go down more easily than 2 marines building a res tower, and 2 marines to build a res tower are easier to replace than a gorge. A gorge and a skulk bodyguard still go down pretty easily.
Skulks also have no upgrades and no leap at this point. Marines have ranged weapons and take 3 bites to kill (you can't always get a para in).
Early game no-celerity-no-leap skulks have a hard time getting groups of marines out of big, open areas and long hallways (think cargo on tantith, think generator on nothing). Three marines who are smart enough to stay far from the door when they hear aliens can defend an area long enough to knife down an rt.
At this point aliens have an easier job saving rts (they get the warning, marines are vulnerable when knifing). Aliens are less vulnerable because they can hide behind the rt and in some cases escape easily (think station alpha on eclipse, or double res on tantith or rampage). Marine can rebuild rts much more easily though. It's even enough.
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Post fade: after the unkillable fade appears.
You know the unkillable fades that wreak havoc. The ones with 42-3 endgame scores. They make it impossible for 1-2 marine groups to do much and make it very hard for even an entire team to do anything.
Most importantly, he tips the balance in the res war. While marines and skulks are pretty even when battling over an rt (whether it's alien or marine), fades will crush a few marines sent in to save an rt. And they'll crush 2 marines knifing, even if one is covering. And unlike marines, when faced with a force he can't handle (3 lmgs, 2 shotguns) headed his way, he can run and immediately hit the other side of the map.
Fades DO die, whether from newbness, or from a smart marine doing a good block or a marine in the wrong place at the right time for a retreating fade. But if they do enough damage first, it often doesn't matter.
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Conclusion:
Now that I have those out of the way, I'd like to say that against a not stupid alien team, marines can only win by winning the early game res war. They might win it with a relocate (think cargo on tantith); they might win it by killing gorge eggs; they might win it by gunning down rts; they might win it by just being better shots and owning the skulks in the field.
Sneaky hiverushes do sometimes win games (hit one hive, hit the other --> ping of death), but they require a sneaky marine, a lot of luck, and no smart aliens who mention "it's too quiet" and then check the hives. Against an alien team with res, you'll see hives rebuilding right after they barely go down and LOTs of ocs up. If the aliens lose their second hive at the cost of all marine rts (with the fade surviving), they've won (as long as they can rebuild/build the other hive).
Sometimes marines win the res war so well that by the time the aliens get a fade, the marines have a map of rts, lots of shotguns, and solid upgrades to respond. They also have hmgs for every marine that make skulks useless.
Sometimes they even win the res war so well that they can electrify all their rts to make them skulkproof, and can focus on keeping the aliens at 1 hive to keep it that way (1 hive fades have a hard time killing an eleced rt without gorge support).
I have to mention 2 hives as well... that's another turning point. With a second hive, skulks are MUCH more effective against marines, and fades have healing at their fingertips in metabolize - they can be constantly harassing, they don't have to go back to the hive for a heal!
An alien team without a fade... well they're going to get owned. I've seen games won by lerks and good leap skulks alone. They carried out fade functions to win. Both can own a solo marine, both can run when they get in trouble.
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Conclusion conclusion:
The early (or not-so-early) good fade turns a slightly marine stacked reswar into a one sided one pretty quickly. After that point, the slippery slope begins, and marines can only recover with luck or brilliant comming and teamwork.
This is where ns needs work. Maybe slight combat tweaks, but I think the solution lies in the alien res system.
Comments
[On a Side Note]
In one scrim, I HMG'd one Fade, and as the other was escaping, I pistoled it to death. Made me happy, because it was versus a good team (although only a scrim).
A good 1 hive will cream those 2 lmg marines. He has the mobility to attack them whenever he wants to. If he's smart, he'll wait until they're reloading or attacking a skulk or a gorge or an rt. Or he can create a bad situation by blinking around, delivering a swipe and retreating (before they can move to block). The marines will be stuck with a fade at mostly full health and half a clip. Reload or not? Either way, they're in trouble. If one chases the fade, he'll kill that guy while they're split.
The fade will probably be hurt after the fight and will have to run to a gorge or hive. This is when you're most likely to kill a good fade - he's low on health, and you happen to be unexpectedly in between him and healing with a full lmg clip. I've killed the best fades on Tactical Gamer this way <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or he can hit targets everywhere and run when faced with marines. He's hard to kill if he runs!
One shotty and one marine (good ones who can block), and I might start placing bets.
One shotty and two marines (still good ones who can block)... I'd bet on the marines. But a good 1 hive fade wouldn't pick that fight unless it was near a hive or unless he caught them at a bad time (all out of ammo, from behind, etc.)
Nerfing fade damage might be nice, but I think the solution lies in tweaking the alien res system.
*EDIT: Neither side can retreat... just noticed that. A good fade won't get into a situation where he can't retreat. A good marine team CAN trap him (for instance, marines in the hallway after stability monitoring on caged to trap a fade running from aux gen. But if the marines are this coordinated, either they've won, or the fade and alien team are equally coordinated (i.e. gorge support and a skulk posse)*
So let's see, you've got 95 res in marine upgrades, the fade outnumbered 2-1, restricted to one chamber effect and can only use slash (since he's not allowed to run) and then you go to make the stunning pronouncement that the marines will win? Boy.. that's sure a shocker.. why don't you just specify the fade player can only touch the keyboard with his nose while you're at it?
However I'll agree, fades don't need a nerf. Fades need a skill adjustment so that lesser skilled players can work them well and then marines need a buff to compensate for the better average effectiveness of the fade.
So let's see, you've got 95 res in marine upgrades, the fade outnumbered 2-1, restricted to one chamber effect and can only use slash (since he's not allowed to run) and then you go to make the stunning pronouncement that the marines will win? Boy.. that's sure a shocker.. why don't you just specify the fade player can only touch the keyboard with his nose while you're at it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont think he meant that the fade has to walk to the marines, or not allowed to use blink in combat...
besides, theres 90 res on the fade as well?!
However I'll agree, fades don't need a nerf. Fades need a skill adjustment so that lesser skilled players can work them well and then marines need a buff to compensate for the better average effectiveness of the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh god no. fades dont need a skill adjustment. PEOPLE need a mindset adjustment; whining about stuff that you find too hard until its made easier isnt the way to play a video game. well, its definitely not fun at least.
A good 1 hive will cream those 2 lmg marines. He has the mobility to attack them whenever he wants to. If he's smart, he'll wait until they're reloading or attacking a skulk or a gorge or an rt. Or he can create a bad situation by blinking around, delivering a swipe and retreating (before they can move to block). The marines will be stuck with a fade at mostly full health and half a clip. Reload or not? Either way, they're in trouble. If one chases the fade, he'll kill that guy while they're split.
The fade will probably be hurt after the fight and will have to run to a gorge or hive. This is when you're most likely to kill a good fade - he's low on health, and you happen to be unexpectedly in between him and healing with a full lmg clip. I've killed the best fades on Tactical Gamer this way <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or he can hit targets everywhere and run when faced with marines. He's hard to kill if he runs!
One shotty and one marine (good ones who can block), and I might start placing bets.
One shotty and two marines (still good ones who can block)... I'd bet on the marines. But a good 1 hive fade wouldn't pick that fight unless it was near a hive or unless he caught them at a bad time (all out of ammo, from behind, etc.)
Nerfing fade damage might be nice, but I think the solution lies in tweaking the alien res system.
*EDIT: Neither side can retreat... just noticed that. A good fade won't get into a situation where he can't retreat. A good marine team CAN trap him (for instance, marines in the hallway after stability monitoring on caged to trap a fade running from aux gen. But if the marines are this coordinated, either they've won, or the fade and alien team are equally coordinated (i.e. gorge support and a skulk posse)* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know this is long, but please read it before you respond.
Two marines with 2w/1a upgrades with lmgs can take out any fade easily. I hate how everyone thinks you need a shotty to kill a fade. Plain fact of it is, you don't. If you know how to aim, you'll find fades to be incredibly fragile, the same way the lerk is. I haven't done the math in a while, but I think with weapons 3 a lone marine can kill a fade without reloading. This means almost every lmg and pistol shot hits, not very likely, but it could happen. With 2-3 marines there? The fade should be at red health every single time they come in the room.
People say "well then, nerf the fade." I have one question for you, how? Make them slower? They'll die. Lower their health? They'll die. Make them do less damage? They won't kill anything and be worthless. The fade hasn't changed at all in the shift from beta 5 to 3.0F. The fade wasn't as overpowered then, was it?
Now I know what the counterpoints are, so I'll just state them myself and save you the trouble.
a) No cost for upgrades so fades come faster due to skulk kills.
Well how about this. All that happened between 3.0F and beta 5 is that fades come ~1 minute sooner. This means that now marines need to kill fades using less res. To do this I'd say just get weapons 2. Thats pretty much all you need. If you don't want weapons 2, have your AA by the time, or slightly after, fades come out. Ask any pro fade, HMGs hurt like hell.
b) Fades shouldn't be able to take out groups of 5-6 marines by themselves.
No, they shouldn't. But thats not due to the fades being overpowered. Thats the marines not being concious of where they are on the map, the chokepoints nearby, the entrances to the room, and plain not being able to aim. Once they fade comes in, it should be able to just get to one marine before it dies. Not even hit the marine, just reach him. This is vanilla marines too.
An lmger can empty say 30 shots before the fade gets to him. 30 x 5 = 150. 150 x 10 = 1500 points of damage. Fades have 300 health, 150 armor (hive 1, 1 armor = 2 health). So Fades have a total of 600 health. Say half the bullets miss due to lag, registry, mouse dieing, whatever. Thats still 750 points of damage. More than enough to kill a fade.
c) The game shouln't be over when the alien team gets a fade.
It isn't. Not by a long shot. The game isn't over until the hives are dead, or the IPs are dead. Granted there are times that winning is a long shot, but having to deal with a fade isn't one of them. Think about it. In competative play, do you ever see a team just give up as soon as a fade kills someone? No. They can still win, even having to deal with the fade.
d) Marines shouldn't have to hit with every bullet in their clip to kill a fade.
They don't. 50 lmg bullets, do 500 damage total. A full pistol clip does 200 damage. Thats 700 damage, more than enough to kill a fade. And don't say that this requires almost every bullet to hit, this is just one marine. Two marines, 1400 damage. Three marines, 2100 damage. Each successive marine requires a huge reduction in the amount each player needs to hit to kill a fade.
Please note that all math was done with vanilla marines. Thats right, <b>Weapons 0</b> and marine can solo a fade without reloading. Guess I was wrong, eh?
Think about any RTS. How do they avoid the slippery slope at midgame? Simple - if you're losing at both units and expanding, you can take a gamble and tech up.
<b>You can't do that when you're aliens on NS.</b> Try to tech? Can't unless you have territory, which you obviously won't have since you're already losing the expansion front.
This is something that will never be addressed on NS, so the slippery slope is here to stay forever. Maybe NS:S (though I doubt it), NS2 (more likely), but not NS.
I see the same arguments that were made against the new lerk flight model being made here. So why hasn't the fade been touched then? We consider balance changes that impact the fade to be amongst the highest risk changes. If we accidently nerf or buff the fade too much then we will be much worse off. NS3 is what it is, and the fade is central to that. Sure there is always room for improvements, but we will have to choose the moment to do that very carefully.
Also, the dependency on the fade adds to the exhileration and excitement a fade player experiences. Knowing that your every move is critical to the team's victory is one way to get the Adrenaline pumping. I'm sure anyone who has been the sole fade defending against a siege would agree <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ( Remember Forlorn's cri frag vid where he defended a siege on caged? )
If anything is changed maybe it should be the cost, expecially if marines complain about the fact fades come a bit to early, but maybe even that change is not necceasy.
As many people have pointed out killing a fade doesn't take all that much, so my suggestion is, why not just look into ways to keep lagg from affecting hits registering and other issues that plague most of the alien models instead of nerfing them.
During college i play ns on a lan with a bunch of friends, and fades deffintally don't last as long when everyone has a ping of 2.
If anything is changed maybe it should be the cost, expecially if marines complain about the fact fades come a bit to early, but maybe even that change is not necceasy.
As many people have pointed out killing a fade doesn't take all that much, so my suggestion is, why not just look into ways to keep lagg from affecting hits registering and other issues that plague most of the alien models instead of nerfing them.
During college i play ns on a lan with a bunch of friends, and fades deffintally don't last as long when everyone has a ping of 2. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
One way would be to try to hinder people from using network settings that are highly detrimental to hit reg. Even if you're on a 56k modem you would be using something like cl_updaterate 20-30, cl_cmdrate 20-30, cl_rate 5000, rate 5000. People should not be able to choose settings below those that are required for 56k modems to be compatible with NS imho as they will allmost entirely consist of people who wish to reduce hitregistration against them.
I see the same arguments that were made against the new lerk flight model being made here. So why hasn't the fade been touched then? We consider balance changes that impact the fade to be amongst the highest risk changes. If we accidently nerf or buff the fade too much then we will be much worse off. NS3 is what it is, and the fade is central to that. Sure there is always room for improvements, but we will have to choose the moment to do that very carefully.
Also, the dependency on the fade adds to the exhileration and excitement a fade player experiences. Knowing that your every move is critical to the team's victory is one way to get the Adrenaline pumping. I'm sure anyone who has been the sole fade defending against a siege would agree <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ( Remember Forlorn's cri frag vid where he defended a siege on caged? ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good skulks are more important for a victory and a good lerk can tear up a marine team well enough to not need a fade until the marines get an adv armory. Yes, they are a core class but isnt everything? I personally think skulking is harder to learn an play but since you have to do it so much you get better it and fading is rarer (thus harder to master).
Well how about this. All that happened between 3.0F and beta 5 is that fades come ~1 minute sooner. This means that now marines need to kill fades using less res. To do this I'd say just get weapons 2. Thats pretty much all you need. If you don't want weapons 2, have your AA by the time, or slightly after, fades come out. Ask any pro fade, HMGs hurt like hell.
b) Fades shouldn't be able to take out groups of 5-6 marines by themselves.
No, they shouldn't. But thats not due to the fades being overpowered. Thats the marines not being concious of where they are on the map, the chokepoints nearby, the entrances to the room, and plain not being able to aim. Once they fade comes in, it should be able to just get to one marine before it dies. Not even hit the marine, just reach him. This is vanilla marines too.
An lmger can empty say 30 shots before the fade gets to him. 30 x 5 = 150. 150 x 10 = 1500 points of damage. Fades have 300 health, 150 armor (hive 1, 1 armor = 2 health). So Fades have a total of 600 health. Say half the bullets miss due to lag, registry, mouse dieing, whatever. Thats still 750 points of damage. More than enough to kill a fade.
c) The game shouln't be over when the alien team gets a fade.
It isn't. Not by a long shot. The game isn't over until the hives are dead, or the IPs are dead. Granted there are times that winning is a long shot, but having to deal with a fade isn't one of them. Think about it. In competative play, do you ever see a team just give up as soon as a fade kills someone? No. They can still win, even having to deal with the fade.
d) Marines shouldn't have to hit with every bullet in their clip to kill a fade.
They don't. 50 lmg bullets, do 500 damage total. A full pistol clip does 200 damage. Thats 700 damage, more than enough to kill a fade. And don't say that this requires almost every bullet to hit, this is just one marine. Two marines, 1400 damage. Three marines, 2100 damage. Each successive marine requires a huge reduction in the amount each player needs to hit to kill a fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry Golden, but your logic is highly flawed even if the numbers appear to be on your side.
Lets talk over it:
a) Yes, Fades come around one minute sooner, but i think you underestimate the res loss the rineteam has from this advance.
1 tick= 4 secs
60 secs = 15 tics
Since early game marines are domitnating currently they usually have around 4-5 Rts until fades show up
4-5Rts x 15 tics = thats 60 -75 res
Around the mark the fade occurs you need res very bady for the following (at least)
-Pg for assaulting second hive
-Weapons for actually killing the hive by force OR
-Siege weaponary
So if the fade comes just one minute early marines are not only short of 75 res at that time, no they also loose much more territory and rts, since they are not as good teched/equipped when they encounter the fade.
b)
I agree, but see it liket his:
5-6 Marines illusionary 6 = whole team INCLUDING Comm ; 5 = whole map clear for aliens to roam. Its ridiculous to think that you have 5-6 marines at one place, but EVEN THEN they need <b>3</b> Seconds to fire their 30 shots wich would kill the fade (if it hasn´t upgrades)
You clam that the fade would only have time to REACH one marine, well, maybe if he is walking.
But in real gameplay ns is incredibly fast paced. For example getting an up as alien need 2 secs and even that appears like a long time.
Normally the fade is in around 0,5 seconds in reach of the marine by blinking.
Taking an average reaction time of 0,3 for the marine combined with lag of 0,1 sec the fade has now taken 0,1secs bullets (thinking that marines didn´t have MT) wich is not availiable at the point fades apear if you want weapon ups.
Per fastswitch one swipe turn around and retreat. This takes assumingly another second that means the Fade has taken 1,1 seconds fire.
Assuming there are 5 marines each with a miss rate of 50% on a blinking fade (wich i find VERY optimistic) that means 10 bullets from each marine from wich 5 have hit, e.g the fade taking 25 bullets.
This brings your fade down to 225 HP and 63 Armor at hive 1 without ups.
Take in regen and the fade can be back after around 5 ticks of regeneration.
IF the marines had weapon up 2 at that time the fade would have survived with 210/45 a very reasonable amount of health from my gaming experience as a fade.
c) The game is over as soon as one team looses constantly area and has no changce to regain it by normal means.
This happens if a good fade appears to soon in marine game.
d)Oh great the marine may miss 4 pistol shots or 8 lmg rounds onto the fade (mind inert regen). But please also note that firing both weapons empty takes at least 7 seconds in wich the vanilla fade had more that enough time to kill your rine.
Infact in 7 seconds a good fade can kill at least two marines if not more.
More marines do not necessarily reduce the amount of hit since there is:
1) Bullet blocking (helping the fade and when you are crouching infornt of the first rine he gives a really good meatshield)
2) FF helping the fade to kill the rines if they got armor ups
So please don´t make such statements if you can´t bolster them with playing experience and don´t simply rely on numbers.
The fade IS overpowered and who thinks he isn´t probably thinks Bush is the best President the USA had ever, too!
As for the prospective attack group, 1 fade can easily deal with 2 lmg marines without fear of death. Unless the LMGers have perfect aim and zero response time, it will take less time for a fade to blink in, swipe 3 times, and blink out, repeat. Granted, if the marines are considerably decent, the fade will only manage to kill one, and have to come back for the second after healing, but that is an easy feat nonetheless.
Congratulations, guys.
So why can't we nerf metabolize?
If we just changed it that way that it didn´t give the fade adren but instead use some (like 5-10% of the bar), the hive 1 fade wouldn´t be touched, but the hive 2 and 3 fade would loose some of his manouverability (by blinking with interlinked meta) and wouldn´t be a nuisance as it is now (since he has to stay for healing longer or is vulnerable during that if he stays near the marines!
how in any way is the fade hard to learn and hard to master? I learnt fade in two weeks and now I'm a primary fade for knife. Before I learnt to fade I was the sucky permagorge-rt guy who sucked at killing things so yea