Not true Snidely, the vast majority of people meet friends because they are put in the same place with them, not because they just walked up to them and waved. I've got the odd friend from going out and pulling someone but in general it's all from school or work.
Yes so you get different ages at work but backgrounds at school can be just as varied. Meanwhile you said that you can leave work but not school. True but then I'm talking about training for society where you can't always leave because you dislike someone (and seriously, how many people can afford that luxury even at work). At school you are forced to spend time with a large mix of people, at least some of which you will almost certainly get on with if you try.
That's exactly why I'd never let my kids be home tutored, they'd miss out on too much.
Oh and since when have children put work ahead of having fun? I can think of very few people that didn't go to the parties during gcse and clubs/pubs during A-level.
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+Jun 10 2005, 08:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ Jun 10 2005, 08:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not true Snidely, the vast majority of people meet friends because they are put in the same place with them, not because they just walked up to them and waved. I've got the odd friend from going out and pulling someone but in general it's all from school or work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not as if each child would be chained up in their home if there were no schools. They could still meet through family contacts or hobbies. I'm not really talking about getting a girlfriend. Is it more likely that you'll meet someone you like when going to school? Quite possibly. It's not primarily a meeting place, though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes so you get different ages at work but backgrounds at school can be just as varied. Meanwhile you said that you can leave work but not school. True but then I'm talking about training for society where you can't always leave because you dislike someone (and seriously, how many people can afford that luxury even at work). At school you are forced to spend time with a large mix of people, at least some of which you will almost certainly get on with if you try.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's possible to get a good mix. Unlike work, however, you're not going to have any movement. You're going to have a few kids come and go due to leaving and death, sure, but by and large, if you stay at one school, you're going to be stuck with the same lot for years.
It may not be practical to leave a job due to jerks, but nevertheless, <i>it is an option</i>. In fact, it's more important to get along with people at work, because you might actually need them. If you can't work in a team at work, you're screwed. If you can't work in a team at school, you can still do okay for yourself. The largest part is individual assessment.
As for "training for society" - in order for that to be true, school life would have to be similar to real life. It isn't, for reasons I've given and more. (Restrictions on who you're lumped with, it's mandatory, can't do anything about authority, you pay them and not vice versa, etc. etc.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and since when have children put work ahead of having fun? I can think of very few people that didn't go to the parties during gcse and clubs/pubs during A-level.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Regardless, they're not supposed to put fun ahead of work. That's not what the school is looking for: a school will be more interested in a student getting an A and having a hard time, than a D and a fun time. Again, whether or not you socialise at school is irrelevant (but a nice bonus). Learning is the primary objective.
That's the entire point, all those restrictions, all those things that stop school being the same as 'real life' are exactly why school is such a good training ground. I know plenty of people who would quite happily have run away from people at the first sign that they aren't 'accepted' or disliked. They'd never step out of their house etc.
You say they'd meet people through hobbies and family but I can only think of one person I've ever met through family that I count as a friend (and him I rarely see) and hobbies? Hands up here who play computer games? All those that watch TV too. If I had no friends and didn't need to work then I'd have no reason to step outside the house at all except food and I wouldn't get too meet people other than those at lan parties (and would I actually go if I'd not had lots of experience meeting new people).
Besides, so your year doesnt change at school. That doesn't mean that you know everyone, there are plenty of people in the school I didn't talk to and it was only in the final year of exams that I was on speaking terms with everyone of my age. I didn't even start talking to the years below me at all and I only knew a few from the year above so I wouldn't say you are exactly limited in selection.
Of course you are right when you say it's more important to get on with others at work than at school and to be able to work in a team. As you say, it's vital in 'real life' but at school it's almost a bonus (a side quest <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->). That's exactly the point though, before you get in to a work situation you need to learn how to work with others and the vast majority of people do exactly that while at school. Football games in the playground, coursework, various after school activities etc, they are all part of the school life.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regardless, they're not supposed to put fun ahead of work. That's not what the school is looking for: a school will be more interested in a student getting an A and having a hard time, than a D and a fun time. Again, whether or not you socialise at school is irrelevant (but a nice bonus). Learning is the primary objective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that not the same in 'real life'? You could be a hardworking, productive member of society with no social skills whatsoever and be seen as a good (if lonely) person.
I think we are getting off topic now. My point is school is for more than an academic education, it is a place where you learn to be a member of society. A wide range of people and viewpoints gives you a tolerant, open mind that is capable of dealing with all that life can throw at it and gives you a basic grounding in common sense.
My dad grew up very poor and instead of making it through his wits in business like his brothers he studied his way through
A good man, and definitely capable of living by wits, as I myself attest to, however he is rather more disposed to responsible advice rather than letting me wing it
Such advice from childhood is holding me back. Although realistically perhaps I might not become a kickass famous dude, it'd be damn fine to live the life I want to free of all inhibitions
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Jun 10 2005, 10:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Jun 10 2005, 10:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and since when have children put work ahead of having fun? I can think of very few people that didn't go to the parties during gcse and clubs/pubs during A-level.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Regardless, they're not supposed to put fun ahead of work. That's not what the school is looking for: a school will be more interested in a student getting an A and having a hard time, than a D and a fun time. Again, whether or not you socialise at school is irrelevant (but a nice bonus). Learning is the primary objective. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hate to break it to ya, but you're wrong on that when it comes to college applications. Say a school is looking at two candidates. One is brilliant, studied for hours all through high school, always got 98 or higher in all his classes, perfect scores on every standardized test, etc. The other is a B student, but also did things he loved: varsity sports, student government, community service; he also comes across as a much stronger individual in his interview because he's used to talking in front of people, and he's comfortable with himself. Which student do you think had more fun in high school? Which do you think is going to get the acceptance letter?
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jun 15 2005, 12:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jun 15 2005, 12:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hate to break it to ya, but you're wrong on that when it comes to college applications. Say a school is looking at two candidates. One is brilliant, studied for hours all through high school, always got 98 or higher in all his classes, perfect scores on every standardized test, etc. The other is a B student, but also did things he loved: varsity sports, student government, community service; he also comes across as a much stronger individual in his interview because he's used to talking in front of people, and he's comfortable with himself. Which student do you think had more fun in high school? Which do you think is going to get the acceptance letter? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But a B is a good mark. 3 B's at A-Level will get you into most universities. You'll at least need 3 A's to get into Oxford or Cambridge. A fairer question is: will a C or D student who has done a lot of extracurricular activities get in ahead of an A student without? Not likely. At least, not over here. I have no idea what the American system is like.
The very fact that league tables exist indicate that schools are primarily about academics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think we are getting off topic now. My point is school is for more than an academic education, it is a place where you learn to be a member of society. A wide range of people and viewpoints gives you a tolerant, open mind that is capable of dealing with all that life can throw at it and gives you a basic grounding in common sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, my standpoint is that while the social element of school is a nice bonus, it's not the reason for them. You go to school to learn, but get to socialise, as opposed to going to school to socialise, but getting to learn. It's not as if we were a closed society before schools. As for the tolerant, open mind - tell that to the students at Columbine.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Jun 8 2005, 04:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Jun 8 2005, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for parents and children - if you are still living at home then obey your parents. They are supplying the roof - they are feeding - obey them... even if it means sitting through a church service or two. If you don't like that faith - that's your business... going to church isn't killing you... When you pay the bills - then you can sleep in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT! From the old school I am. Yours is not the reason why, yours is but to do or die. Just ... do ... what ... the rents ... tell ya. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Jun 15 2005, 11:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Jun 15 2005, 11:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The very fact that league tables exist indicate that schools are primarily about academics.
...
Well, my standpoint is that while the social element of school is a nice bonus, it's not the reason for them. You go to school to learn, but get to socialise, as opposed to going to school to socialise, but getting to learn. It's not as if we were a closed society before schools. As for the tolerant, open mind - tell that to the students at Columbine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If schools were shown as places to socialise and pick up a bit of knowledge then kids wouldn't work. They have to advertise school as a place of hardwork and discipline or the pupils would be nightmares.
"I might be failing the academics but I've got an A in partying!".
When you say columbine that doesn't prove me wrong. Just as school emphasises academic studies and yet pleny of people come away with fails and low grades, so it's the same with socialising. For every person that... 'owns' their year there is a potential trenchcoated psycho out there.
Comments
Yes so you get different ages at work but backgrounds at school can be just as varied. Meanwhile you said that you can leave work but not school. True but then I'm talking about training for society where you can't always leave because you dislike someone (and seriously, how many people can afford that luxury even at work). At school you are forced to spend time with a large mix of people, at least some of which you will almost certainly get on with if you try.
That's exactly why I'd never let my kids be home tutored, they'd miss out on too much.
Oh and since when have children put work ahead of having fun? I can think of very few people that didn't go to the parties during gcse and clubs/pubs during A-level.
It's not as if each child would be chained up in their home if there were no schools. They could still meet through family contacts or hobbies. I'm not really talking about getting a girlfriend. Is it more likely that you'll meet someone you like when going to school? Quite possibly. It's not primarily a meeting place, though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes so you get different ages at work but backgrounds at school can be just as varied. Meanwhile you said that you can leave work but not school. True but then I'm talking about training for society where you can't always leave because you dislike someone (and seriously, how many people can afford that luxury even at work). At school you are forced to spend time with a large mix of people, at least some of which you will almost certainly get on with if you try.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's possible to get a good mix. Unlike work, however, you're not going to have any movement. You're going to have a few kids come and go due to leaving and death, sure, but by and large, if you stay at one school, you're going to be stuck with the same lot for years.
It may not be practical to leave a job due to jerks, but nevertheless, <i>it is an option</i>. In fact, it's more important to get along with people at work, because you might actually need them. If you can't work in a team at work, you're screwed. If you can't work in a team at school, you can still do okay for yourself. The largest part is individual assessment.
As for "training for society" - in order for that to be true, school life would have to be similar to real life. It isn't, for reasons I've given and more. (Restrictions on who you're lumped with, it's mandatory, can't do anything about authority, you pay them and not vice versa, etc. etc.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and since when have children put work ahead of having fun? I can think of very few people that didn't go to the parties during gcse and clubs/pubs during A-level.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless, they're not supposed to put fun ahead of work. That's not what the school is looking for: a school will be more interested in a student getting an A and having a hard time, than a D and a fun time. Again, whether or not you socialise at school is irrelevant (but a nice bonus). Learning is the primary objective.
You say they'd meet people through hobbies and family but I can only think of one person I've ever met through family that I count as a friend (and him I rarely see) and hobbies? Hands up here who play computer games? All those that watch TV too. If I had no friends and didn't need to work then I'd have no reason to step outside the house at all except food and I wouldn't get too meet people other than those at lan parties (and would I actually go if I'd not had lots of experience meeting new people).
Besides, so your year doesnt change at school. That doesn't mean that you know everyone, there are plenty of people in the school I didn't talk to and it was only in the final year of exams that I was on speaking terms with everyone of my age. I didn't even start talking to the years below me at all and I only knew a few from the year above so I wouldn't say you are exactly limited in selection.
Of course you are right when you say it's more important to get on with others at work than at school and to be able to work in a team. As you say, it's vital in 'real life' but at school it's almost a bonus (a side quest <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->). That's exactly the point though, before you get in to a work situation you need to learn how to work with others and the vast majority of people do exactly that while at school. Football games in the playground, coursework, various after school activities etc, they are all part of the school life.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regardless, they're not supposed to put fun ahead of work. That's not what the school is looking for: a school will be more interested in a student getting an A and having a hard time, than a D and a fun time. Again, whether or not you socialise at school is irrelevant (but a nice bonus). Learning is the primary objective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that not the same in 'real life'? You could be a hardworking, productive member of society with no social skills whatsoever and be seen as a good (if lonely) person.
I think we are getting off topic now. My point is school is for more than an academic education, it is a place where you learn to be a member of society. A wide range of people and viewpoints gives you a tolerant, open mind that is capable of dealing with all that life can throw at it and gives you a basic grounding in common sense.
A good man, and definitely capable of living by wits, as I myself attest to, however he is rather more disposed to responsible advice rather than letting me wing it
Such advice from childhood is holding me back. Although realistically perhaps I might not become a kickass famous dude, it'd be damn fine to live the life I want to free of all inhibitions
Regardless, they're not supposed to put fun ahead of work. That's not what the school is looking for: a school will be more interested in a student getting an A and having a hard time, than a D and a fun time. Again, whether or not you socialise at school is irrelevant (but a nice bonus). Learning is the primary objective. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hate to break it to ya, but you're wrong on that when it comes to college applications. Say a school is looking at two candidates. One is brilliant, studied for hours all through high school, always got 98 or higher in all his classes, perfect scores on every standardized test, etc. The other is a B student, but also did things he loved: varsity sports, student government, community service; he also comes across as a much stronger individual in his interview because he's used to talking in front of people, and he's comfortable with himself. Which student do you think had more fun in high school? Which do you think is going to get the acceptance letter?
But a B is a good mark. 3 B's at A-Level will get you into most universities. You'll at least need 3 A's to get into Oxford or Cambridge. A fairer question is: will a C or D student who has done a lot of extracurricular activities get in ahead of an A student without? Not likely. At least, not over here. I have no idea what the American system is like.
The very fact that league tables exist indicate that schools are primarily about academics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think we are getting off topic now. My point is school is for more than an academic education, it is a place where you learn to be a member of society. A wide range of people and viewpoints gives you a tolerant, open mind that is capable of dealing with all that life can throw at it and gives you a basic grounding in common sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, my standpoint is that while the social element of school is a nice bonus, it's not the reason for them. You go to school to learn, but get to socialise, as opposed to going to school to socialise, but getting to learn. It's not as if we were a closed society before schools. As for the tolerant, open mind - tell that to the students at Columbine.
QFT! From the old school I am. Yours is not the reason why, yours is but to do or die. Just ... do ... what ... the rents ... tell ya. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
...
Well, my standpoint is that while the social element of school is a nice bonus, it's not the reason for them. You go to school to learn, but get to socialise, as opposed to going to school to socialise, but getting to learn. It's not as if we were a closed society before schools. As for the tolerant, open mind - tell that to the students at Columbine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If schools were shown as places to socialise and pick up a bit of knowledge then kids wouldn't work. They have to advertise school as a place of hardwork and discipline or the pupils would be nightmares.
"I might be failing the academics but I've got an A in partying!".
When you say columbine that doesn't prove me wrong. Just as school emphasises academic studies and yet pleny of people come away with fails and low grades, so it's the same with socialising. For every person that... 'owns' their year there is a potential trenchcoated psycho out there.