So This Two Hive Lockdown Shtuff.
typical_skeleton
Join Date: 2003-02-24 Member: 13944Members
Join Date: 2003-02-24 Member: 13944Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Is it a problem?</div> Has anyone noticed a serious increase in the number of two hive lockdowns?
It's almost as if every marine team has figured out how easy and viable this tactic is. I'd say about 70% of my pub games now involve a two hive lock.
A lot of pub alien teams don't seem to understand how important it is to prevent it, and it's been happening a lot more lately (in my experience). Seems that the marines "adapted" finally, and the result is a proliferation of two hive lockdowns.
Now I know they can be prevented with the tools the aliens have, but it's almost becoming problematic. It's hard enough to organize pub aliens as it is, and with this tacked on, well... it's pretty much GG at around four minutes.
One hive adren fades even have a hard time breaking these lockdowns (pubs, remember).
Anyone else notice this trend? Any thoughts?
It's almost as if every marine team has figured out how easy and viable this tactic is. I'd say about 70% of my pub games now involve a two hive lock.
A lot of pub alien teams don't seem to understand how important it is to prevent it, and it's been happening a lot more lately (in my experience). Seems that the marines "adapted" finally, and the result is a proliferation of two hive lockdowns.
Now I know they can be prevented with the tools the aliens have, but it's almost becoming problematic. It's hard enough to organize pub aliens as it is, and with this tacked on, well... it's pretty much GG at around four minutes.
One hive adren fades even have a hard time breaking these lockdowns (pubs, remember).
Anyone else notice this trend? Any thoughts?
Comments
Of course, that's not entirely accurate. Without the pg, it would be 65 res in two locations, and with the pg it would really be 80 in two locations, plus an additional 40 for the obs + phasetech. So...yeah, that's still a LOT.
Marines vs 2 Hive Aliens-->Marines win
unless they have JP/HA/a huge amount of Rts
2 Hives are teh win. Which is kind of sad because it really shortens the game a lot. If you arent able to prevent hive 2 and you dont have HA ready you loose...nearly everytime.
It's weird. And yes, retarded aliens lose games.. I've played with a lot of retarded aliens lately...
Of course with the increase in 2 hive lockdowns, there is an increase in alien wins after 2 hive lockdowns (i think even percentage-wise).
There has also been a rise in alien losses after 3 hives because of new the marine tech.
Anything is possible in a disorganized pub.
I can confirm your observation,
but I've mostly seen it on big pubs (>16 players)
just get someone to put up hive, not hard.
PWned
However, if aliens have DC and res control hive lockdowns are easily destroyed.
I've seen one hive redempt onos take down PG in "locked-down" hives in the blink of an eye. Sometimes marines have time to respond and sometimes they don't.
yea, but that was omega... big difference..., that may as well have been a pub <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With that out of the way, back on topic. Since this is the General Discussion forum, I'll say that two hive lockdowns are certainly a very viable and effective strategy for pubs. I've rarely played in a game where the aliens were able to come back from a two hive lockdown. In competative play on the other hand, two hive lockdowns are a rare occurrence. This is because most clans understand the immense value of a second hive and fight like small rabid animals in corners to keep it. Of course, if a two hive lockdown does come along, its very likely that the marines will win. The aliens still have a chance though.
Also, a complete lockdown of a hive doesn't have to involve turrets. You can spend 100 res and have: an electrified res node, a phase gate, an electrified tf. Pluse the 30 res it takes to get phase tech in the first place, and the 15 res for the base phase. This totals to 145 res. The advantage you have by electrifying instead of using turrets is immense. If you place your buildings right, you can have the entire phase gate be covered by 2 electrification fields. Unless the aliens have 2 hives already, or an onos with a gorge healing it, you're probably going to hold it. With the occasional marine strolling through, you're almost guarenteed to hold it.
Router, we won the FeX match with a two hive lockdown, true. But it wasn't the two hive lockdown that won us the game. We took down their res very early as well as had a marine spawn camp them for a good 2 minutes. After that it was just a matter of sieging the hive and accidentally blocking a vent with a siege that wasn't even needed 30 seconds from the end of the game and having them dispute that they could have won against fully upgraded jetpack HMGers with res nodes, higher lifeforms, and at most 3 movements.
Except now, with the increase in mc-first games, "near hive" and "far hive" don't mean nearly as much as they used to.
God forbid aliens adapt to a changing climate with smarter pub marines.
Seriously though, unless the scale of skill is tipped heavily towards the marines, I really dont see many two hive lock downs in any short length of time, and Im usually on the aliens when playing classic. One hive lock down in ten minutes, sure... two hive lock down in 4 minutes? Err? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
HOWEVER : if the aliens have the not-middle hive, that is, there is only one hive near them, a phasegate, or minor lockdown [mines, perhaps elec] is rather viable
take for example veil, if the aliens have pipe or sub, a phasegate at cargo before the aliens put up the hive can push back the second hive long enough to pull a win. however, if friendlyfire is on, and the aliens are coordinated with gorges for healing and such.. they can go around the middle hive.
honestly in pubs it's probably viable due to very little alien teamwork, but you'd have to hold the phasegates with 20 res each, at most i'd guesstimate
Except now, with the increase in mc-first games, "near hive" and "far hive" don't mean nearly as much as they used to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
friendly fire isn't on all pubs
with ff off a smart marine comm gets the phasegate, then either waits until seiges are done, or a ton of shotguns are in the hive to attack, if FF is off. mc won't do crap
HOWEVER : if the aliens have the not-middle hive, that is, there is only one hive near them, a phasegate, or minor lockdown [mines, perhaps elec] is rather viable
take for example veil, if the aliens have pipe or sub, a phasegate at cargo before the aliens put up the hive can push back the second hive long enough to pull a win. however, if friendlyfire is on, and the aliens are coordinated with gorges for healing and such.. they can go around the middle hive.
honestly in pubs it's probably viable due to very little alien teamwork, but you'd have to hold the phasegates with 20 res each, at most i'd guesstimate <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two hive lockdowns are effective no matter what hive they have. Just lock them both down and horde res for a heavy train. Only takes about 15 minutes to save enough res with 3 nodes (MS and one in each hive).
HOWEVER : if the aliens have the not-middle hive, that is, there is only one hive near them, a phasegate, or minor lockdown [mines, perhaps elec] is rather viable
take for example veil, if the aliens have pipe or sub, a phasegate at cargo before the aliens put up the hive can push back the second hive long enough to pull a win. however, if friendlyfire is on, and the aliens are coordinated with gorges for healing and such.. they can go around the middle hive.
honestly in pubs it's probably viable due to very little alien teamwork, but you'd have to hold the phasegates with 20 res each, at most i'd guesstimate <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two hive lockdowns are effective no matter what hive they have. Just lock them both down and horde res for a heavy train. Only takes about 15 minutes to save enough res with 3 nodes (MS and one in each hive). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed the point. If aliens have a far hive, then the other far hive doesn't need to be defended nearly as well as the middle hive. Compare that to when the aliens have the middle hive, where both hives have to be defended.
Rapier you're my hero. What servers do you reg on?
If you can get a two hive lockdown and keep it up, then you've won.
The problem is GETTING a two hive lockdown before the fades show up. If you're winning the res war (torn down theirs, covered the map in yours), then you could pull it off. But then the res would be better spent on sending a heavy train into an alien hive.
Better than a two hive lockdown is a MIDDLE HIVE LOCKDOWN. Marine start and the middle hive are at two opposite corners of a square, with the other two hives at the other corners. You control marine start, and if you can get the middle hive, you have 1) a large chunk of the map (you have the rts near both spots) and 2) cut the alien team in half. They have to avoid marines to get across the map to drop a hive or rt/respond to an rt under attack.
Even better is a relocation to a central spot such as cargo or mother interface - one where you get a hive AND split the alien team.
7 turrets = worthless against fade/onos/bile gorge. 7 turrets and an lmg marine = dead gorge, running fade. 7 turrets and an hmg marine = running onos. Turrets augment marine firepower, they don't replace it. But they back up a marine very nicely - they make it hard to reach a marine (physically) and dish out a little damage.
HOWEVER : if the aliens have the not-middle hive, that is, there is only one hive near them, a phasegate, or minor lockdown [mines, perhaps elec] is rather viable
take for example veil, if the aliens have pipe or sub, a phasegate at cargo before the aliens put up the hive can push back the second hive long enough to pull a win. however, if friendlyfire is on, and the aliens are coordinated with gorges for healing and such.. they can go around the middle hive.
honestly in pubs it's probably viable due to very little alien teamwork, but you'd have to hold the phasegates with 20 res each, at most i'd guesstimate <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two hive lockdowns are effective no matter what hive they have. Just lock them both down and horde res for a heavy train. Only takes about 15 minutes to save enough res with 3 nodes (MS and one in each hive). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed the point. If aliens have a far hive, then the other far hive doesn't need to be defended nearly as well as the middle hive. Compare that to when the aliens have the middle hive, where both hives have to be defended. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, friendly fire isn't on the servers I play on and the alien teams still manage to get the far hive up a large percentage of the time.
Let's look at small sizes from 6v6 up to 8v8. There are only a limited number of players available to do stuff like attack MS and take down RTs. Each player that is killed has a significant effect on the current map control. Skulk respawn speed is average.
Now look at massive services from 10v10 to 12v12. Very likely you'll find 2-3 skulks free to take down res nodes everytime, leaving the marine team very strapped for res. Skulks respawn very very fast. You'd likely need 3, even 4 IPs just to keep pace with ONE HIVE respawning.
Unless RTS, marines will block each others' fire. So skulks have an advantage against many marines. Lerk sporing will affect more marines and thus requires more meds to keep alive.
In short, if the marines DO NOT lockdown in uber big games, they will never have enough res to do the normal things you can do in scrims and still prevent a hive from coming up.
Without that secure PG, marines will never live long enough to get to an objective. My 2 res worth.
Nor do yours Golden. It should be painfully clear that any posts made in a forum are generally stated as that individual's opinion.
Nor do yours Golden. It should be painfully clear that any posts made in a forum are generally stated as that individual's opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
roloffle
The views expressed here are not necessarily shared by my genitals.
Granted, there are ways to take down a hive lockdown, but they require a fairly organized alien team (uncommon on public servers). Generally speaking, a competent marine commander with a 2-hive lockdown can't be overcome by a similarly-skilled alien team. And everyone knows what happens then - the aliens slowly lose their higher lifeforms trying to take back the hive, giving the marines tons of res from the kills, the marines start getting HA in addition to HMGs, GLs and jetpacks and then the alien F4'ing begins.
And for the record, I don't blame the people who F4 because there's no point wasting further time on a game that can not be won the vast majority of the time.
The NS developers absolutely MUST find a way to modify the game in such a way that a an average team (on either side) can still have a chance to overcome a slightly "above-average" team near the end of the game. The "last minute flip" if you will. And it should be possible without the better team making a mistake.
Now, I'm biased towards aliens because IMHO it's much tougher to play aliens, there is far less possibility of alien hax, and coordination is more challenging. This also means that aliens tend to lose more on public servers.
Two changes I'd love to see right now would be related to phase-gates, which I think are far too-powerful right now. The first would be to have a 3 or 4 second delay between phase-gate sends (allow it to recharge or something), so it's not possible to get your entire team to another location in only a few seconds. Alternately, require 2 people in-position to build a gate to help reduce the "ninja-PG" attack.
The second is similar, and that would be to prevent the use of a beacon/gate rush, so when a beacon happens, only DEAD players are revived at base. Living players would have to make their way back there on their own somehow.
Feel free to argue <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
MC and SC still aren't the best chambers for lockdown smashing, because they help skulks and lerks more then they help fades, which really are the only lifeform with enough health to take on the turrets a lockdown presents.
Had a game where marines locked CC in eclipse with around 6 turrets, with some marine help.
2 fades and a lerk tried to take it down but the marines knocked down their HP too fast. I gorged in the vent with an MC and adrenaline. I healed these 3 players faster than any DCs would and within a minute, with marines finally being distracted by a 3rd fade and recapping RTs, that they took down CC lockdown with continuous attacks.
The magic word, then, is teamwork.
Take a look in I&S forums though, there are some turret suggestions that are being considered.