<!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+May 11 2005, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ May 11 2005, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't understand why people keep saying that it's fine as long as the Marines have the res to accomplish this. I'd be pretty damn surprised if the Marines <i>didn't</i> have 4 res to block... It is worth 2 medpacks for CC blocks. 2 medpacks to take down 50 or 75 res? Hmm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What the hell are you talking about, ccs are 20 res, not 2
As long as a skulk can get through? So in the instance of fully teched HA/HMG I described earlier, as long as a SKULK can get through into cargo everything is ok.
There is nothing wrong with basically incapacitating higher life forms?
Excellent guys, keep it up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the comm has 40-60 res to block all entrances in a room you are in trouble anyway
Incapacitating? If a skulk can get by so can bile bomb, have a gorge bb the siege. Adapt <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> both teams had high res flow and we where constantly killing marine res. Aliens had 4+ res towers with onos', fades and as many lerks as needed. So no we where NOT in trouble. The marines had a better res flow when attempting to siege from cargo on their other attempts but we faught them off.
So GL's and JP HMG's against gorge who bile? Yeh thats going to work. They can adapt with welders too you know. If you render the onos useless where onos' seriously effect the outcome of a situation.. thats fine because you can bile bomb? what if the bile doesnt reach all the sieges?
And Duo about your fading thing - Yes its not impossible to get through the doorway but still there is a lot more chance of flipping up, especially when retreating from JP/HA HMG'ers. Our fades could get through but it wasnt a smooth process and that killed them.
If the cc's didnt get put down im confident the game would of had a different outcome, but more importantly it just removed the fun from the game as we had virtually no chance to defend the hive properly.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+May 12 2005, 03:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ May 12 2005, 03:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's at least one easy way to solve this, although it would reduce the amount of relocations possible to carry out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ghost structures would work better IMHO.
Duo I understand that yes it is possible for fades to get through but there's no way you're going to get in and out perfectly every time. Even the absolute best of you won't make it every time.
As a mc/sc fade, that one time you don't means that you're dead to a lvl 3 HMG.
I just don't think a game should have to come down to blocking with ccs.
Also, just as an added point, the clan that cc blocked had it done to them a couple of weeks ago and as I recall you weren't at all impressed, so now you've just totally done a u-turn?
<!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+May 11 2005, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ May 11 2005, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't understand why people keep saying that it's fine as long as the Marines have the res to accomplish this. I'd be pretty damn surprised if the Marines <i>didn't</i> have 4 res to block... It is worth 2 medpacks for CC blocks. 2 medpacks to take down 50 or 75 res? Hmm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> what?
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+May 12 2005, 05:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ May 12 2005, 05:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+May 12 2005, 03:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ May 12 2005, 03:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's at least one easy way to solve this, although it would reduce the amount of relocations possible to carry out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ghost structures would work better IMHO. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Give the man a cookie, that's what I was thinking as I was reading this.
They're just supposed to be projections anyways until they're built.
<!--QuoteBegin-gham+May 12 2005, 08:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gham @ May 12 2005, 08:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Duo I understand that yes it is possible for fades to get through but there's no way you're going to get in and out perfectly every time. Even the absolute best of you won't make it every time.
As a mc/sc fade, that one time you don't means that you're dead to a lvl 3 HMG.
I just don't think a game should have to come down to blocking with ccs.
Also, just as an added point, the clan that cc blocked had it done to them a couple of weeks ago and as I recall you weren't at all impressed, so now you've just totally done a u-turn?
Remember how you felt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You did it a couple a weeks ago, and now suddenly you make a full u-turn?
The arguement goes both ways.
Regardless, I'm not really bothered about this, for once I have no opinion on the matter...
I wasn't consulted before action was taken tjosan, I wouldn't be here against it if I supported it.
I'm totally with Grendel here, there should be a solution to stop it before it becomes too common in late game when marines cannot beat aliens any other way.
It would limit relocations but how often do you see them?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Duo about your fading thing - Yes its not impossible to get through the doorway but still there is a lot more chance of flipping up, especially when retreating from JP/HA HMG'ers. Our fades could get through but it wasnt a smooth process and that killed them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Practice more than. With the 2 years of conc maps under my belt I find it extremely easy to fly around and get through blocked doors.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Duo I understand that yes it is possible for fades to get through but there's no way you're going to get in and out perfectly every time. Even the absolute best of you won't make it every time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well there was this one time when we played Terror on Tanith and they did a double CC door block in Cargo. I was flying in and out pretty easily with just Focus.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, just as an added point, the clan that cc blocked had it done to them a couple of weeks ago and as I recall you weren't at all impressed, so now you've just totally done a u-turn?
Remember how you felt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tjosan disliking CC blocking has nothing to do with mine and buggeh's decision to CC block. I don't want to discuss the details of specific matches anyway, lets not play the what if the marine team hadn't blocked game or we could start changing the match from the very beginning and NOTHING would be the same.
Personally i've always felt that if the commander is smart enough and has enough res to do it then he can. It might be a net 4 res lose, but if an alien team allows a commander to hold enough to have a spare 20 res needed in the first place then fine, the marine team also has to be alert and able to react to the situation, i've seen plenty of failed block attempts. I've died as a fade to a block, i've never felt it was an exploit, i've always felt if the commander can do it then it's our fault for poor node pressure or i just give props to the comm for being on the ball.
You keep saying 4 rez per chair. and that is half true. While yes the net is, it costs him 4 rez. To purchase the Comm chair for awhile. he has to invest 20 rez into it. but chances are there are 2 or 3 doors, thus. your looking at 40-60 rez intital investment.
You keep arguring it cost 4 rez, which I think we all agree with, but its actualy 20 rez to purchase. and I think we all agree that 20-40 rez is alot to spend blocking doorways that any lifeform cept gorge and onos can get around.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
The main argument against structure blocking seems to be "it's not fair" or "it's not fun", which simply isn't good enough. This is competitive discussion, a more reasonable statement would be "It isn't balanced", followed by <i>why</i> it isn't balanced. My personal view is that structure blocking is balanced because of the resource, time, and precision required to make it work (try structure blocking in the middle of a hot firefight, it is <i>not</i> a simple issue of point and click to kill a fade with a CC). I also fail to see how that isn't a great example of a commander's fast thinking and adaptability. It punishes aliens for being too bold and not planning far enough ahead to recognize a threat. CC blocking may not be acceptable in public server play due to "it's not fair" or "it's not fun", but public server rules don't quite apply in competitive play. Remember what forum one is in before saying such a statement.
I also believe the standard CAL rules on the issue are fair. My reasoning for this is skulks are the size of lerks and +duck fades as far as the game is concerned, so if a skulk can fit, a +duck fade can fit. The only lifeform that gets jipped is the onos, and I think this is a fair tradeoff for choosing a lifeform with huge stats. It requires the onos to think before taking the leap. Onos balance is something that needs to be addressed at some point, as it really isn't effective except in certain niche situations, and is near useless at hive 1.
You're saying that it costs 40-60 res to block a room with CCs at all doorways. And yes, it does... but rarely is it required. If a fade is escaping in one doorway, suddenly blocking it off will <b>not give it enough time</b> to move to the other doorway; the Marines are, surprise, shooting the fade, and it would be unusual for it to be left with high health. Asking the aliens to keep the Marines' res down to less than 20 at all times is absolutely ridiculous.
Ya, cc blocking doesnt really effect skilled fades much. But they can make onos useless, since two cc can trap an onos in most hallways you can easly kill it or just keep it out of the way with 40 res(and no matter you say thats ****).
Same response the other thread about RT blocking. Do you guys honestly believe you want admins to decide whether one CC block or one rt block affected the game to a point where they may need to overturn a match for it?
Also, think about it this way. Most people do not know all the rules for a league. Making gameplay tactics illegal and legal will just confuse more and more people. There are enough people out there already that can't even install a config correctly. Do you guys honestly want to make it even more complicated by filling up a huge page of all the things that people can't do?
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
That wouldn't help most structure blocking, because it's done with marines nearby. Most competitive blocks are done with marines very close to the structure in order to take advantage of a trapped alien. Also, some of us see structure blocking as a viable tactic, stating that makes it seem as if the "problem dissapears" by implementing what you say, when in fact it would do the opposite for those of us that believe structure blocking should stay in.
One of the biggest problems that I personally have with CCs is that they can lie. IE, blocking the west tanith marine start doorway (MS side) with a CC, it looks like you can make it over the right corner (if the CC positions itself correctly), but you get stuck in an invisible pocket, and you can't blink over it. So you have to walk backward and try again, this time more to the left and center of the CC. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yes, that is the major problem I see with cc blocking, the stuck spots. CC block in certain areas, like in Ventilation on Hera causes Fades not only to be blocked, but to gett stuck inside structures and they are not able to get out of.
Blocking is hardly ever an issue with fades, even if someone happens to kill a fade with an CC block or whatever, i believe if they woulda had as much possibility to kill it without the block.
Regarding Onos's though, im strongly against blocking doorway's with CCs, 20 res that the CC costs, heck there cant really be a team that couldnt afford it, and basing on that it will only be dropped when theres a high possibility that the rines can shoot the Onos down, it really cant be a fair trade off to a 75 res lifeform in anyway.
1900 hp on onos 2600 hp with cara onos
one unupgraded lmg marine with pistol deals 700 dmg, 3 rines shoot all they got and heck knife the rest, it really aint that hard..
In my opinion dieing with a higher lifeform should be based on the aim on rine + your own movement skills/ goreing/stomping etc. NOT on how the comm times his CC block.
Oh and, these are rough figures only, just what i remember, could be wrong i guess, do correct me if so.
By the way, i forgot that possible change idea on those, couldnt you just set you cant place a CC in a doorway, too near to wall or something. I mean sure its always a semi good idea to place a CC against a wall. But nothing that id miss really.. It would at the same time remove those odditie relocs when someone "haves fun" in a vent or something toward that line..
Comments
It is worth 2 medpacks for CC blocks. 2 medpacks to take down 50 or 75 res? Hmm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What the hell are you talking about, ccs are 20 res, not 2
Basic maths is your friend.
As long as a skulk can get through? So in the instance of fully teched HA/HMG I described earlier, as long as a SKULK can get through into cargo everything is ok.
There is nothing wrong with basically incapacitating higher life forms?
Excellent guys, keep it up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the comm has 40-60 res to block all entrances in a room you are in trouble anyway
Incapacitating? If a skulk can get by so can bile bomb, have a gorge bb the siege. Adapt <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
both teams had high res flow and we where constantly killing marine res. Aliens had 4+ res towers with onos', fades and as many lerks as needed. So no we where NOT in trouble. The marines had a better res flow when attempting to siege from cargo on their other attempts but we faught them off.
So GL's and JP HMG's against gorge who bile? Yeh thats going to work. They can adapt with welders too you know. If you render the onos useless where onos' seriously effect the outcome of a situation.. thats fine because you can bile bomb? what if the bile doesnt reach all the sieges?
And Duo about your fading thing - Yes its not impossible to get through the doorway but still there is a lot more chance of flipping up, especially when retreating from JP/HA HMG'ers. Our fades could get through but it wasnt a smooth process and that killed them.
If the cc's didnt get put down im confident the game would of had a different outcome, but more importantly it just removed the fun from the game as we had virtually no chance to defend the hive properly.
Ghost structures would work better IMHO.
As a mc/sc fade, that one time you don't means that you're dead to a lvl 3 HMG.
I just don't think a game should have to come down to blocking with ccs.
Also, just as an added point, the clan that cc blocked had it done to them a couple of weeks ago and as I recall you weren't at all impressed, so now you've just totally done a u-turn?
Remember how you felt.
It is worth 2 medpacks for CC blocks. 2 medpacks to take down 50 or 75 res? Hmm. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
what?
Ghost structures would work better IMHO. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give the man a cookie, that's what I was thinking as I was reading this.
They're just supposed to be projections anyways until they're built.
As a mc/sc fade, that one time you don't means that you're dead to a lvl 3 HMG.
I just don't think a game should have to come down to blocking with ccs.
Also, just as an added point, the clan that cc blocked had it done to them a couple of weeks ago and as I recall you weren't at all impressed, so now you've just totally done a u-turn?
Remember how you felt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You did it a couple a weeks ago, and now suddenly you make a full u-turn?
The arguement goes both ways.
Regardless, I'm not really bothered about this, for once I have no opinion on the matter...
I'm totally with Grendel here, there should be a solution to stop it before it becomes too common in late game when marines cannot beat aliens any other way.
It would limit relocations but how often do you see them?
Practice more than. With the 2 years of conc maps under my belt I find it extremely easy to fly around and get through blocked doors.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Duo I understand that yes it is possible for fades to get through but there's no way you're going to get in and out perfectly every time. Even the absolute best of you won't make it every time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well there was this one time when we played Terror on Tanith and they did a double CC door block in Cargo. I was flying in and out pretty easily with just Focus.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, just as an added point, the clan that cc blocked had it done to them a couple of weeks ago and as I recall you weren't at all impressed, so now you've just totally done a u-turn?
Remember how you felt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Personally i've always felt that if the commander is smart enough and has enough res to do it then he can. It might be a net 4 res lose, but if an alien team allows a commander to hold enough to have a spare 20 res needed in the first place then fine, the marine team also has to be alert and able to react to the situation, i've seen plenty of failed block attempts. I've died as a fade to a block, i've never felt it was an exploit, i've always felt if the commander can do it then it's our fault for poor node pressure or i just give props to the comm for being on the ball.
shrug.
I wonder..
20 or even 40 res for a) a lot of extra time to build structures and b)a big increase in the chance to kill higher life forms.
You keep saying 4 rez per chair. and that is half true. While yes the net is, it costs him 4 rez. To purchase the Comm chair for awhile. he has to invest 20 rez into it. but chances are there are 2 or 3 doors, thus. your looking at 40-60 rez intital investment.
You keep arguring it cost 4 rez, which I think we all agree with, but its actualy 20 rez to purchase. and I think we all agree that 20-40 rez is alot to spend blocking doorways that any lifeform cept gorge and onos can get around.
I also believe the standard CAL rules on the issue are fair. My reasoning for this is skulks are the size of lerks and +duck fades as far as the game is concerned, so if a skulk can fit, a +duck fade can fit. The only lifeform that gets jipped is the onos, and I think this is a fair tradeoff for choosing a lifeform with huge stats. It requires the onos to think before taking the leap. Onos balance is something that needs to be addressed at some point, as it really isn't effective except in certain niche situations, and is near useless at hive 1.
If a fade is escaping in one doorway, suddenly blocking it off will <b>not give it enough time</b> to move to the other doorway; the Marines are, surprise, shooting the fade, and it would be unusual for it to be left with high health.
Asking the aliens to keep the Marines' res down to less than 20 at all times is absolutely ridiculous.
Also, think about it this way. Most people do not know all the rules for a league. Making gameplay tactics illegal and legal will just confuse more and more people. There are enough people out there already that can't even install a config correctly. Do you guys honestly want to make it even more complicated by filling up a huge page of all the things that people can't do?
Regarding Onos's though, im strongly against blocking doorway's with CCs, 20 res that the CC costs, heck there cant really be a team that couldnt afford it, and basing on that it will only be dropped when theres a high possibility that the rines can shoot the Onos down, it really cant be a fair trade off to a 75 res lifeform in anyway.
1900 hp on onos
2600 hp with cara onos
one unupgraded lmg marine with pistol deals 700 dmg, 3 rines shoot all they got and heck knife the rest, it really aint that hard..
In my opinion dieing with a higher lifeform should be based on the aim on rine + your own movement skills/ goreing/stomping etc. NOT on how the comm times his CC block.
Oh and, these are rough figures only, just what i remember, could be wrong i guess, do correct me if so.