Not being a competitive player, I'm curious as to why this is a big problem. I would think that competitive players would adapt quite easily to parasiting immediately before they start to bite, nullifying the armor buff. The siege buff doesn't seem large enough to make marines overpowered.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 28 2005, 03:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 28 2005, 03:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not being a competitive player, I'm curious as to why this is a big problem. I would think that competitive players would adapt quite easily to parasiting immediately before they start to bite, nullifying the armor buff. The siege buff doesn't seem large enough to make marines overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You me and inverted are the only non compeditive players on this thread. Get the picture now?
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 28 2005, 09:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 28 2005, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not being a competitive player, I'm curious as to why this is a big problem. I would think that competitive players would adapt quite easily to parasiting immediately before they start to bite, nullifying the armor buff. The siege buff doesn't seem large enough to make marines overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Show me where the <span style='color:orange'>competitive</span> (take note on spelling Swiftspear) players complain about the +5 armour increase.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Appeal to Authority is when the subject is not an expert in the field. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong actually, an argument should hold up without the support of a persons experience. If the logic is solid, why do you need to support them with your credentials?
You make a lot of sense in your critique of ns balance and gameplay, I just don't see why you have to remind people how good you are at the game. Those arguments would make just as much sense coming from someone who has never played the game, just as dumb ideas from skilled players are still dumb <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2005
I'm personally liking it a lot. Not only does it slightly help marines out, but it also adds a whole new skill aspect to skulking. Parabiting is the new word on the block, yo. Although it takes a short while to get used to, hitting the marines with a para just before you bite them is a really neat trick. Not to mention the fact that you can switch it around, and get heaps of parasite kills.
Siege change much needed, although sieges are still unwieldy, and adren gorges lock it down to a certain degree.
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Apr 28 2005, 04:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Apr 28 2005, 04:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just don't see why you have to remind people how good you are at the game. Those arguments would make just as much sense coming from someone who has never played the game, just as dumb ideas from skilled players are still dumb <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This isn't about who is better or who is hung better, this forum is for people that play COMPETITIVELY. This means that they understand how the game is played at the higher levels of play, and not just mentioning things they noticed in the last half a dozen games on some random pub server.
I personally don't care who posts here as I can just not read whatever they post but you can't expect people to listen to others that are practically playing a different game.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited April 2005
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This isn't about who is better or who is hung better, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that was my point. I still see constant mention of how well hung posters are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> this forum is for people that play COMPETITIVELY. This means that they understand how the game is played at the higher levels of play, and not just mentioning things they noticed in the last half a dozen games on some random pub server. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woah, where's this coming from? I wasn't commenting on that 'discussion'.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I personally don't care who posts here as I can just not read whatever they post but you can't expect people to listen to others that are practically playing a different game.
A healthy attitude. I find it really easy to skip over posts that don't interest me.
So why are some people so worried about a few UNCOMPETITIVE posts then? That's where I'm puzzled.
Anyway, I'm gonna step out of this conversation as it is going way off-topic and having never played competitive ns I'll refrain from commenting on the changelog.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+Apr 28 2005, 05:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ Apr 28 2005, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Appeal to Authority is when the subject is not an expert in the field. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong actually, an argument should hold up without the support of a persons experience. If the logic is solid, why do you need to support them with your credentials? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think I'll quote myself out of the thread on non-competitive players posting here:
<!--QuoteBegin-Myself+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Myself)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When talking about balance, there is no need for empirical evidence to back it up because we have similar experiences. If something is controversial, then evidence needs to be presented to confirm what was stated. The problem is that non-competitive players do not have the background to support prima facae evidence, and often are simply talking out of their rear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point in saying that was that a competitive player saying something based on experience is the equivalent of quoting a subject matter expert. Now when a non-competitive player does the same, they do not have the experience (and thus aren't an expert) to back that up, and therefore require empirical (actual, hard) evidence to back up their statements. This is often not the case at all.
<a href='http://datanation.com/fallacies/aa.htm' target='_blank'>Appeal to Authority</a>
<i>While sometimes it may be appropriate to cite an authority to support a point, often it is not. In particular, an appeal to authority is inappropriate if: (i) the person is not qualified to have an expert opinion on the subject</i>
Unless I suddenly have vision problems, this looks like it says an appeal to authority is only a logical fallacy when the person cited is "not qualified to have an expert opinion", therefore they can't be quoted in such a manner as evidence. Logic does not matter if the person lacks the experience to provide the information needed to fill in a logical argument, does it? How can you argue about something of which you know nothing?
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 28 2005, 03:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 28 2005, 03:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 28 2005, 03:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 28 2005, 03:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not being a competitive player, I'm curious as to why this is a big problem. I would think that competitive players would adapt quite easily to parasiting immediately before they start to bite, nullifying the armor buff. The siege buff doesn't seem large enough to make marines overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You me and inverted are the only non compeditive players on this thread. Get the picture now? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Inverted is a competitive player. He was in CAL Playoffs etc etc. Just because you don't know who he is don't just assume he's some random nub.
As for the patch... I quite like it. Adapting to it as one does. At least it keeps clans on their toes <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited April 2005
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While sometimes it may be appropriate to cite an authority to support a point, often it is not. In particular, an appeal to authority is inappropriate if: (i) the person is not qualified to have an expert opinion on the subject <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How convenient, you left out
<i> (ii) experts in the field disagree on this issue.</i>
I.E when the experts disagree you're wasting your time citing one of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unless I suddenly have vision problems, this looks like it says an appeal to authority is only a logical fallacy when the person cited is "not qualified to have an expert opinion", therefore they can't be quoted in such a manner as evidence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you think anything a clanners says is true. I.e. anyone who is 'qualified to have an expert opinion' can cite their authority and smack down any argument with it?
Now apart from your suspicious selection of supporting evidence, you also fail to invert a logical statement correctly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> an appeal to authority is inappropriate if: (i) the person is not qualified to have an expert opinion on the subject <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Does not</b> imply
an appeal to authority is appropriate if the person is qualified.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Logic does not matter if the person lacks the experience to provide the information needed to fill in a logical argument, does it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it is of paramount importance. If someone doesn't know what they are talking about they will probably be wrong. If someone stumbles on a great idea without truely understanding it but expresses it clearly are you saying the idea isn't valid? That it is in someway defective for not having being thought of by a subject matter expert?
At work, I'd be laughed at for citing my experience as a reason I was correct. My boss would demand that I produce reasoning and if possible evidence to support my design.
The wright brothers were laughed at by the experts of their day. Them being correct didn't make any of the other crazy men attempting to build flying machines correct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How can you argue about something of which you know nothing? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not saying that you can argue about something you know nothing of. I am arguing that knowing something of a subject does not make you right. Experts are wrong sometimes, they are right sometimes. There's nothing wrong with citing experience for an example of your point, but it is not a sieve for good and bad arguments.
<!--QuoteBegin-haymo+Apr 29 2005, 02:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (haymo @ Apr 29 2005, 02:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotty needs to learn that 1 parasite + 2 bites = kill.. So if you do what you usually do is parasite then ambush.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> haymo needs to learn how to read, I said that this change doesnt effect clan games as much, if at all because 1st clanners can get 3 bites on a rine, and 2nd clanners parasite more. However in pubs aliens usually find it hard enough gettin 2 bites.
<!--QuoteBegin-inverted+Apr 29 2005, 04:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (inverted @ Apr 29 2005, 04:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-haymo+Apr 29 2005, 02:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (haymo @ Apr 29 2005, 02:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotty needs to learn that 1 parasite + 2 bites = kill.. So if you do what you usually do is parasite then ambush.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> haymo needs to learn how to read, I said that this change doesnt effect clan games as much, if at all because 1st clanners can get 3 bites on a rine, and 2nd clanners parasite more. However in pubs aliens usually find it hard enough gettin 2 bites. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well... Seige helps too...
Also this change means every first encounter has to be a parasite encounter, even if the marines are in the process of wasting one of your res nodes.
<!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Apr 28 2005, 06:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Apr 28 2005, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Parabiting is the new word on the block, yo. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm just waiting for someone to make a script that does it...we all know they're coming
*edit* if someone does then send it to me so i can try it ^^
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 29 2005, 05:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 29 2005, 05:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-inverted+Apr 29 2005, 04:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (inverted @ Apr 29 2005, 04:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-haymo+Apr 29 2005, 02:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (haymo @ Apr 29 2005, 02:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotty needs to learn that 1 parasite + 2 bites = kill.. So if you do what you usually do is parasite then ambush.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> haymo needs to learn how to read, I said that this change doesnt effect clan games as much, if at all because 1st clanners can get 3 bites on a rine, and 2nd clanners parasite more. However in pubs aliens usually find it hard enough gettin 2 bites. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well... Seige helps too...
Also this change means every first encounter has to be a parasite encounter, even if the marines are in the process of wasting one of your res nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines always had armor 1 up by their second push anyway. The res tower defense situation hasn't changed terribly much.
The way I look at it is since the aliens have to parasite now (if they have a brain they will), it will cause more organization of the alien team thus actually benefiting them. The teams that didn't parasite before will probably parasite now, letting them actually organize much better.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cerebral+Apr 29 2005, 01:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cerebral @ Apr 29 2005, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Apr 28 2005, 06:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Apr 28 2005, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Parabiting is the new word on the block, yo. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm just waiting for someone to make a script that does it...we all know they're coming
*edit* if someone does then send it to me so i can try it ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I could be wrong, but I don't think you can switch between parasite and bite that fast.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I could be wrong, but I don't think you can switch between parasite and bite that fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It works just fine if you insert about 10 waits for 100 FPS before +attack.
Gonna be some scripty days ahead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But hey, if nothing else, parasiting someone helps all the rest of the alien team, since the marines got a little buff, the aliens have to work harder, but not as much as you may think.
If anything this just reduces the head-on assault tactic with aliens, which was at least in my understanding part of the whole idea of being alien....
I really dont understand why someone would be so eager to post about some pub rounds on competetive forum, Be it competetive player or not, but come on.. Pub players aint THAT quick to learn new tricks on new versions.. :o
<!--QuoteBegin-Ots+Apr 30 2005, 08:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ots @ Apr 30 2005, 08:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I really dont understand why someone would be so eager to post about some pub rounds on competetive forum, Be it competetive player or not, but come on.. Pub players aint THAT quick to learn new tricks on new versions.. :o
Good update devs, lookin better.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering, that there are much more pubbers than clanners chances are rather slim, that a clanner discovers a certain "trick" before a pubber <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Clanners are usually more organized and are eager to reproduce certain "tricks" or exploits once they have seen its effect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering, that there are much more pubbers than clanners chances are rather slim, that a clanner discovers a certain "trick" before a pubber wink-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Apr 30 2005, 02:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Apr 30 2005, 02:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Considering, that there are much more pubbers than clanners chances are rather slim, that a clanner discovers a certain "trick" before a pubber <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Clanners are usually more organized and are eager to reproduce certain "tricks" or exploits once they have seen its effect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> IIRC, 1.04 JP/HMG rush was forged by the clans. Pubbers adopted it.
From what I can tell, this is the way it's been and always will be. There may be more pubbers, but generally, they're not willing to try anything new. Clanners have an interest in finding the best strategies, and the fact that they play against other high calibre players mean that they have to optimise them. Not to mention that clanners generally read changelogs - there are people who still don't believe that the +5 armour change only affects a0 a great deal.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
You're bound to be wrong in one way or another the way you guys generalise "clanners and pubbers".
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Mustang+Apr 29 2005, 10:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mustang @ Apr 29 2005, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The way I look at it is since the aliens have to parasite now (if they have a brain they will), it will cause more organization of the alien team thus actually benefiting them. The teams that didn't parasite before will probably parasite now, letting them actually organize much better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT.
Games aren't about stats, they're about psychology.
<!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Apr 30 2005, 06:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Apr 30 2005, 06:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're bound to be wrong in one way or another the way you guys generalise "clanners and pubbers". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I guess so. I'd have thought there's more truth in competitive players trying out strats and passing the more successful ones to pubbers like myself (when they play in a pub game or talk about it on forums), than pubs passing wisdom to competitive players, though.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cerebral+Apr 29 2005, 01:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cerebral @ Apr 29 2005, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Apr 28 2005, 06:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Apr 28 2005, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Parabiting is the new word on the block, yo. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm just waiting for someone to make a script that does it...we all know they're coming
*edit* if someone does then send it to me so i can try it ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*all* repeat *all* scripts which were considered exploitative by the NS dev team (_special, wigglewalks etc) have been blocked. That is to say they DO NOT WORK AT ALL WITH THE CURRENT VERSION OF NS.
2)
Scripts do NOT directly make you play better. They do not:
Aim for you. Bhop for you. Let you see through walls. Kill skulks with 1 bullet.
They are a CUSTOMIZATION which some people use because of PERSONAL PREFERENCE. There is NO advantage in using a 3jump over mousewheel for bhopping, not a pistol script over a normal mouse button / mousewheel.
The ONLY reason some people play better with scripts was summed up a while ago by Forlorn, I can't find the exact quote but it is because these people have streamlined their controls more, which is a completely different concept.
3)
Pistol scripts (arguably the only 'exploitatious' script) are nowhere near as good as people think.
Let's go with your standard 2shot script, fires 1 shot when you click, 1 shot when you release. If you click too fast, it only fires 1 shot. That means that you're actually firing as if you do NOT use a script. You actually have to regulate the speed that you click your mouse in order to get the best rate of fire. Also, it does NOT break the RoF cap on the pistol. Yet another reason why it is not exploitatious.
Now, I will list the number of alternatives you have to using a pistol script which can give the EXACT SAME RESULT (faster pistol shooting) :
Clicking your mouse faster (i know loads of people who do this and shoot faster than I do with a 3shot script) Using an external key macro Using your mousewheel Using more than 1 mouse button bound to fire and bashing all of them at once.
To conclude : All exploitatious scripts have been removed from the game
Any player who plays better with scripts than without, does so because he has CUSTOMIZED and STREAMLINED his controls - and therefore is more comfortable with them.
To reiterate: THERE ARE NO EXPLOITATIOUS SCRIPTS IN THE GAME.,
Go Figure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
You me and inverted are the only non compeditive players on this thread. Get the picture now?
Show me where the <span style='color:orange'>competitive</span> (take note on spelling Swiftspear) players complain about the +5 armour increase.
Oh thats right they don't.
Appeal to Authority is when the subject is not an expert in the field.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong actually, an argument should hold up without the support of a persons experience. If the logic is solid, why do you need to support them with your
credentials?
You make a lot of sense in your critique of ns balance and gameplay, I just don't see why you have to remind people how good you are at the game. Those arguments would make just as much sense coming from someone who has never played the game, just as dumb ideas from skilled players are still dumb <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Siege change much needed, although sieges are still unwieldy, and adren gorges lock it down to a certain degree.
This isn't about who is better or who is hung better, this forum is for people that play COMPETITIVELY. This means that they understand how the game is played at the higher levels of play, and not just mentioning things they noticed in the last half a dozen games on some random pub server.
I personally don't care who posts here as I can just not read whatever they post but you can't expect people to listen to others that are practically playing a different game.
This isn't about who is better or who is hung better,
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that was my point. I still see constant mention of how well hung posters are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
this forum is for people that play COMPETITIVELY. This means that they understand how the game is played at the higher levels of play, and not just mentioning things they noticed in the last half a dozen games on some random pub server.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woah, where's this coming from? I wasn't commenting on that 'discussion'.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I personally don't care who posts here as I can just not read whatever they post but you can't expect people to listen to others that are practically playing a different game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A healthy attitude. I find it really easy to skip over posts that don't interest me.
So why are some people so worried about a few UNCOMPETITIVE posts then? That's where I'm puzzled.
Anyway, I'm gonna step out of this conversation as it is going way off-topic and having never played competitive ns I'll refrain from commenting on the changelog.
Appeal to Authority is when the subject is not an expert in the field.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong actually, an argument should hold up without the support of a persons experience. If the logic is solid, why do you need to support them with your
credentials?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I'll quote myself out of the thread on non-competitive players posting here:
<!--QuoteBegin-Myself+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Myself)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When talking about balance, there is no need for empirical evidence to back it up because we have similar experiences. If something is controversial, then evidence needs to be presented to confirm what was stated. The problem is that non-competitive players do not have the background to support prima facae evidence, and often are simply talking out of their rear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point in saying that was that a competitive player saying something based on experience is the equivalent of quoting a subject matter expert. Now when a non-competitive player does the same, they do not have the experience (and thus aren't an expert) to back that up, and therefore require empirical (actual, hard) evidence to back up their statements. This is often not the case at all.
<a href='http://datanation.com/fallacies/aa.htm' target='_blank'>Appeal to Authority</a>
<i>While sometimes it may be appropriate to cite an authority to
support a point, often it is not. In particular, an appeal to
authority is inappropriate if:
(i) the person is not qualified to have an expert
opinion on the subject</i>
Unless I suddenly have vision problems, this looks like it says an appeal to authority is only a logical fallacy when the person cited is "not qualified to have an expert opinion", therefore they can't be quoted in such a manner as evidence. Logic does not matter if the person lacks the experience to provide the information needed to fill in a logical argument, does it? How can you argue about something of which you know nothing?
You me and inverted are the only non compeditive players on this thread. Get the picture now? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Inverted is a competitive player. He was in CAL Playoffs etc etc. Just because you don't know who he is don't just assume he's some random nub.
As for the patch... I quite like it. Adapting to it as one does. At least it keeps clans on their toes <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So if you do what you usually do is parasite then ambush..
While sometimes it may be appropriate to cite an authority to
support a point, often it is not. In particular, an appeal to
authority is inappropriate if:
(i) the person is not qualified to have an expert
opinion on the subject
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How convenient, you left out
<i> (ii) experts in the field disagree on this issue.</i>
I.E when the experts disagree you're wasting your time citing one of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Unless I suddenly have vision problems, this looks like it says an appeal to authority is only a logical fallacy when the person cited is "not qualified to have an expert opinion", therefore they can't be quoted in such a manner as evidence.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you think anything a clanners says is true. I.e. anyone who is 'qualified to have an expert opinion' can cite their authority and smack down any argument with it?
Now apart from your suspicious selection of supporting evidence, you also fail to invert a logical statement correctly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
an appeal to authority is inappropriate if:
(i) the person is not qualified to have an expert
opinion on the subject
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Does not</b> imply
an appeal to authority is appropriate if the person is qualified.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Logic does not matter if the person lacks the experience to provide the information needed to fill in a logical argument, does it?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it is of paramount importance. If someone doesn't know what they are talking about they will probably be wrong. If someone stumbles on a great idea without truely understanding it but expresses it clearly are you saying the idea isn't valid? That it is in someway defective for not having being thought of by a subject matter expert?
At work, I'd be laughed at for citing my experience as a reason I was correct. My boss would demand that I produce reasoning and if possible evidence to support my design.
The wright brothers were laughed at by the experts of their day. Them being correct didn't make any of the other crazy men attempting to build flying machines correct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
How can you argue about something of which you know nothing?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not saying that you can argue about something you know nothing of. I am arguing that knowing something of a subject does not make you right. Experts are wrong sometimes, they are right sometimes. There's nothing wrong with citing experience for an example of your point, but it is not a sieve for good and bad arguments.
So if you do what you usually do is parasite then ambush.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
haymo needs to learn how to read, I said that this change doesnt effect clan games as much, if at all because 1st clanners can get 3 bites on a rine, and 2nd clanners parasite more. However in pubs aliens usually find it hard enough gettin 2 bites.
So if you do what you usually do is parasite then ambush.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haymo needs to learn how to read, I said that this change doesnt effect clan games as much, if at all because 1st clanners can get 3 bites on a rine, and 2nd clanners parasite more. However in pubs aliens usually find it hard enough gettin 2 bites. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... Seige helps too...
Also this change means every first encounter has to be a parasite encounter, even if the marines are in the process of wasting one of your res nodes.
I'm just waiting for someone to make a script that does it...we all know they're coming
*edit* if someone does then send it to me so i can try it ^^
So if you do what you usually do is parasite then ambush.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haymo needs to learn how to read, I said that this change doesnt effect clan games as much, if at all because 1st clanners can get 3 bites on a rine, and 2nd clanners parasite more. However in pubs aliens usually find it hard enough gettin 2 bites. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... Seige helps too...
Also this change means every first encounter has to be a parasite encounter, even if the marines are in the process of wasting one of your res nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines always had armor 1 up by their second push anyway. The res tower defense situation hasn't changed terribly much.
I'm just waiting for someone to make a script that does it...we all know they're coming
*edit* if someone does then send it to me so i can try it ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could be wrong, but I don't think you can switch between parasite and bite that fast.
It works just fine if you insert about 10 waits for 100 FPS before +attack.
Gonna be some scripty days ahead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But hey, if nothing else, parasiting someone helps all the rest of the alien team, since the marines got a little buff, the aliens have to work harder, but not as much as you may think.
If anything this just reduces the head-on assault tactic with aliens, which was at least in my understanding part of the whole idea of being alien....
Good update devs, lookin better..
Good update devs, lookin better.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering, that there are much more pubbers than clanners chances are rather slim, that a clanner discovers a certain "trick" before a pubber <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Clanners are usually more organized and are eager to reproduce certain "tricks" or exploits once they have seen its effect.
wrong.
Clanners are usually more organized and are eager to reproduce certain "tricks" or exploits once they have seen its effect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IIRC, 1.04 JP/HMG rush was forged by the clans. Pubbers adopted it.
From what I can tell, this is the way it's been and always will be. There may be more pubbers, but generally, they're not willing to try anything new. Clanners have an interest in finding the best strategies, and the fact that they play against other high calibre players mean that they have to optimise them. Not to mention that clanners generally read changelogs - there are people who still don't believe that the +5 armour change only affects a0 a great deal.
I know some may just play to kill, and not much else, but maybe some try new things on publics before taking them to the competition?
QFT.
Games aren't about stats, they're about psychology.
Yeah, I guess so. I'd have thought there's more truth in competitive players trying out strats and passing the more successful ones to pubbers like myself (when they play in a pub game or talk about it on forums), than pubs passing wisdom to competitive players, though.
I'm just waiting for someone to make a script that does it...we all know they're coming
*edit* if someone does then send it to me so i can try it ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm assuming you meant aim for you.
<!--QuoteBegin-SpaceJesus+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SpaceJesus)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1)
*all* repeat *all* scripts which were considered exploitative by the NS dev team (_special, wigglewalks etc) have been blocked. That is to say they DO NOT WORK AT ALL WITH THE CURRENT VERSION OF NS.
2)
Scripts do NOT directly make you play better. They do not:
Aim for you.
Bhop for you.
Let you see through walls.
Kill skulks with 1 bullet.
They are a CUSTOMIZATION which some people use because of PERSONAL PREFERENCE.
There is NO advantage in using a 3jump over mousewheel for bhopping, not a pistol script over a normal mouse button / mousewheel.
The ONLY reason some people play better with scripts was summed up a while ago by Forlorn, I can't find the exact quote but it is because these people have streamlined their controls more, which is a completely different concept.
3)
Pistol scripts (arguably the only 'exploitatious' script) are nowhere near as good as people think.
Let's go with your standard 2shot script, fires 1 shot when you click, 1 shot when you release.
If you click too fast, it only fires 1 shot. That means that you're actually firing as if you do NOT use a script. You actually have to regulate the speed that you click your mouse in order to get the best rate of fire.
Also, it does NOT break the RoF cap on the pistol. Yet another reason why it is not exploitatious.
Now, I will list the number of alternatives you have to using a pistol script which can give the EXACT SAME RESULT (faster pistol shooting) :
Clicking your mouse faster (i know loads of people who do this and shoot faster than I do with a 3shot script)
Using an external key macro
Using your mousewheel
Using more than 1 mouse button bound to fire and bashing all of them at once.
To conclude :
All exploitatious scripts have been removed from the game
Any player who plays better with scripts than without, does so because he has CUSTOMIZED and STREAMLINED his controls - and therefore is more comfortable with them.
To reiterate: THERE ARE NO EXPLOITATIOUS SCRIPTS IN THE GAME.,
Go Figure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->