I Kept My Mouth Shut About Seige

DarkhandDarkhand Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3012Members
<div class="IPBDescription">But now the patch is out</div> I just played a game against aliens on BAST (clan versus clan no n00bs) and everytime it came down to attack a hive we placed a seige and we won. The aliens couldn't stop us and we could always put down a siege.

Oh and I did I mention the seige we put next to the commanders chair? All it did was constantly fire at the resource node located on the other side of the swingy door. The aliens could never claim that node or cut us off strategically at that point. Unless of course they won the game. Cause the only way to kill that seige would have been to demonlish our whole base since there were turrets all over.

I think the resources have been slowed down a bit. But it's clearly not enough. We had enough to build 3 more seiges so even if they destroyed them all we could just kill them.

And don't give me the "destroy the turret factory" idea. Cause we always hid them all the way behind the turrets and had two factories in each room. And one or both were in a spot where you couldn't get a bile bomb angle on it.

And if you ever did manage to kill a seige we could build a new one within an instant.

I hear a few times "Extensive playtesting, no need for balancing" all this stuff. But you know what factor you guys didn't take into consideration? You might suck at FPS games and you might not think of plenty of cunning ways to abuse seemingly balanced weapons or buildables.

If you want to stand by the "Seige turrets are fine" and or "Resources are balanced" argument then so be it. But I want someone to tell me a working counter-strategy against seige turrets.

And if I don't believe you I'll challenge you all personally to a Marines Versus Aliens match. Dev team can be the Aliens and I'll get the clan I'm in to play the Marines. And feel free to make a demo of the game to prove your point.
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Comments

  • UGLJonUGLJon Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6940Members
    Nuclear bomb could take care of that. In short hand of that, try attacking your living brains out with some higher level aliens.
  • TabrisTabris Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4273Members
    If you are letting a seige get that close as an alien there is something wrong... I play with a competent alien team on liquitopia... guys i know... and as a team we havent been beaten yet.. we arent a clan yet.. but probably soon. If marines get that far into your hive and set up a base.. they deserve the match.
  • FlameboFlamebo Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1797Members
    edited November 2002
    Rofl I think the DEV team would OWN you guys hands down. Dont flatter yourself.
  • DarkhandDarkhand Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3012Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Tabris+Nov 7 2002, 02:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tabris @ Nov 7 2002, 02:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are letting a seige get that close as an alien there is something wrong... I play with a competent alien team on liquitopia... guys i know... and as a team we havent been beaten yet.. we arent a clan yet.. but probably soon. If marines get that far into your hive and set up a base.. they deserve the match.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And what about the Seige next to the command chair at bast? Did I let them put that there? or is it a freebie?
  • TabrisTabris Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4273Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Flamebo+Nov 7 2002, 02:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flamebo @ Nov 7 2002, 02:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rofl I think the DEV team would OWN you guys hands down. Dont flatter yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    hehe.. I didnt say we could beat the dev team.. i said we havent lost as that team.

    hehe.. though i agree that would be fun!
  • UGLJonUGLJon Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6940Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Tabris+Nov 6 2002, 09:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tabris @ Nov 6 2002, 09:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are letting a seige get that close as an alien there is something wrong... I play with a competent alien team on liquitopia... guys i know... and as a team we havent been beaten yet.. we arent a clan yet.. but probably soon. If marines get that far into your hive and set up a base.. they deserve the match.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The revolving doors on bast are right at the spawn. Adjacent to the revolving doors is a resource node. Put up a siege turret at base and that is always yours, or a null node.
  • nnynny Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7440Members
    edited November 2002
    Wow, one posting over :

    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=9205' target='_blank'>1.01 Makes Being A Commander Difficult Nowadays..</a>

    this guy is saying he can't expand for a minute without dying. You should play with him, he's got the good alien players. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • KenichiKenichi This is not a pie. Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
    It isnt hard to just plop a few seige tanks down here or there to dominate the buildings in a small section of the base. Like Dark said, we had one right by the CC.

    Also, no we aren't flattering ourself. We don't claim to be good. Dark didnt even say that. He just challenged a match. Personally i don't know if we would win but i think it would be a fun match regardless.

    Although seige turrets do probably not cost enough for their level of firepower. Like he said we had enough cash for 3 or 4 of them.
  • GravitonSurgeGravitonSurge Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6138Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Darkhand+Nov 7 2002, 02:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Darkhand @ Nov 7 2002, 02:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the resources have been slowed down a bit. But it's clearly not enough.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    ... Wow. I want that marine team then.
  • padijunpadijun Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3419Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Darkhand+Nov 6 2002, 05:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Darkhand @ Nov 6 2002, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And don't give me the "destroy the turret factory" idea. Cause we always hid them all the way behind the turrets and had two factories in each room. And one or both were in a spot where you couldn't get a bile bomb angle on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Wow, congratulations, you're the first team of marines to actually do that.
  • UnitUnit Join Date: 2002-08-26 Member: 1230Members
    I don't see the problem.....usually when marines have the money to spend on siege turrets, the aliens would have 2 hives, and what comes with 2 hives? Umbra Cloud and Fades...put those two together and u got a perfect turret-demolition crew.
  • KenichiKenichi This is not a pie. Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
    .Unit i agree completly. The other team didnt seem all there on certain tactics that should be common place. But when we are walking around in HMG + HA it pretty much made it impossible for them to even try that.
  • brkdncrbrkdncr Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7455Members
    As marines, we did that for one match, and won without any problems.

    The 2nd match, we tried the same thing, except it wasn't working.

    We put up a ROW of siege's, but still nothing. Finally, I got some heavy armor, and kept my lmg for mobility, and ran over there to see what was going on.

    DEFENSE CHAMBERS EVERYWHERE.

    One of the gorge's set up a NASTY layer of offense chambers at the airlock, and defense chambers. There were enough that it operated completely automatically, no gorge intervention was needed, and even heavy armor/gren couldn't get through that mess.

    That dang gorge did that to other rooms too, but we got there soon enough that we could eventually get through.

    Both sides of the the game were just random players, we only won because our commander was really really good, and gave up on that engine room/airlock mess by setting up defense and going around to the other side.
  • total_spaceship_guytotal_spaceship_guy Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7241Members
    <img src='http://www.geocities.com/hootkiller/untitled3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>


    seriously though, stop nit-picking
  • DarkhandDarkhand Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3012Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--.Unit+Nov 7 2002, 02:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (.Unit @ Nov 7 2002, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see the problem.....usually when marines have the money to spend on siege turrets, the aliens would have 2 hives, and what comes with 2 hives? Umbra Cloud and Fades...put those two together and u got a perfect turret-demolition crew.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah but turret demolition takes time. And since we had a phase gate at each base the second anything came under attack we warped there. And then with our firepower on top of the turrets that were left they would die.

    And then it would take them forever to save up again for another combo like that. And in the mean time us and our seige turrets would continually pound their hides into oblivion.
  • geldonyetichgeldonyetich Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2537Members
    edited November 2002
    The big problem with the siege cannon is there's no real way to defend against it. You have to attack and take it out. If it's behind a wall and involves crossing 25 marine sentry turrets to get there, too bad. The original poster brings up one good example of how the siege cannon can be abused.

    My thoughts:

    Perhaps give the aliens a means to "jam" siege cannons from being able to lock on and kill them. Perhaps sensory chambers or something less reliant on how many hives they have.

    Perhaps give the aliens an equivilent weapon. You siege them, they siege you. The main reason I like this is it gives aliens gridlocked in one hive against marine turrets a way out other than changing umbra to weapon #2. It works to turn the game around for marines, it can work for aliens.

    Perhaps make the siege cannon so weak it drops with a single chomp. Fire a few spikes from across the room with your Lerk and that siege cannon is temporarily off your back.
  • Sh0tSh0t Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3882Members
    i played a game today on doom brigade server and we actually came back as aliens after marines put a siege tower in two of our hive locations.

    you just have to work for it and try to be cunning. With the patch right now, i'd say there is a good chance to beat almost any hinderance if you pluck at it the right way. Killing the turrets factories at a distance is pretty easy if you can get an angle on it. def towers+gorger spraying heal can also help a fade or skulk melee a tower to deatht oo.


    just be resourceful.
  • KenichiKenichi This is not a pie. Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
    Sh0t yeah but you ignore what we said, we all had HMG + HA with phase portals to all main areas with turrets. At a moments notice 3 heavy armored death machines moved in for the kill.
  • Sh0tSh0t Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3882Members
    and in my game the marines had HA+HMG


    its possible, you just have to have a good tactic
  • Uh-OhUh-Oh Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6917Members
    The other day, I was playing on a public server on the alien side. Altough everyone was new and no one knew each other, we were REALLY working has a team. It was great! out of 12 aliens, we had 2 skulks that hid in the shadows at the ennemies exit (cloaked), we had 2 Lurks that were backing the 6 Fades we had with their clouds, and we had 2 gorges that were building and healing full time!
    I don't remember the name of the map but we had defence chambers placed at strategical points were we could heal our teammates through the walls so they could stay on the battlefield. The map was balanced and we possesed about has much ressources and territory as the marines. They had heavy weaponry and heavy armor, but we had fades.
    At some point, we really dominated them, and they were pushed back to their initial outpost. The marine commander simply put a siege turret inside his base and it was shooting through like 3 walls! We had buildings that were being blown to **obscenity** everywhere. I dunno if the siege turret is suppose to shoot through more then 2 walls thick, but that's just weird...
  • QuietMischief1QuietMischief1 Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7456Members
    Ok, check it out

    Darkhand is making us sound like God's or something

    Look, I have yet to see the Aliens lose on a patched server. Even in play testing, when I had the privledge to play with Silver.Fox and Grendel in game, the aliens just kept winning. So I had arranged this scrim for our clan right, and then boom, the patch releases. So the other clan realises and accepts the same as us we feel the Marine's got the shaft.

    So I don't know about my clan mates, but I went into this match picturing a loss, hell for the first 45 minutes I kept thinking we were dead.

    It did not go as clean cut as Darkhand says. We were all busting our **obscenity** to get anything done. Hell I thought it was all over when they got 2 fades with Bilebomb up in that mother effing vent that goes right into spawn, since we had welded it, only to have it get bitten back ground, SO MUCH FUN STUFF!

    But yea man, after the first 45 minutes, we had managed to get that double nozzle place with the water tunnel that drips, with phase gates for instant transportation, got a seige in that little dip down tunnel with the shoot away flooring panel by the Fire looking Engine Room, I mean it wasn't some easy win, I saw it as us busting our **obscenity**. I mean as we managed to capture Feedwater, we put up shop there two, got another phase gate.

    Anyway, it was a **obscenity** blast, and we even gave the other team some of our clan mates to fill their ranks since not all their people showed.
  • InfinitumInfinitum Anime Encyclopedia Join Date: 2002-08-08 Member: 1111Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--total spaceship guy+Nov 7 2002, 01:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (total spaceship guy @ Nov 7 2002, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><img src='http://www.geocities.com/hootkiller/untitled3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sif use PA pic
  • KenichiKenichi This is not a pie. Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
    I see no reaason the thread should die.
  • geldonyetichgeldonyetich Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2537Members
    It should die because there's an angry anime man picture. Isn't that reason enough?
  • SAUnknownSoldierSAUnknownSoldier Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2482Members
    I hear a lot of whining about siege cannons in the game since I play on the Kharaa team more often than Marines. I try to explain that it is one tool the enemy has, but not the only one. And if we are smart, we won't let them take too much advantage of it. The problem is that the Kharaa team usually lets things get too far before they can do anything about the situation.

    Tonight I was playing a match where we had our gorge at the 2nd hive for quite a while, protected by skulks travelling through to get to the Marine start point. After about 20 minutes we asked him what the hell he was doing since the Hive hadn't even started yet. He replied something to the effect that the Marines would be there any minute so there was no point in starting the Hive.

    Yes, the Marines had a turret farm started down the next corridor. But if the jerk had started the Hive when he was able to, we would've had umbra in plenty of time to defeat the turrets. Instead he screwed around for another 25 minutes, not building the Hive, and what do you know - right after we FINALLY convince him to build it, the Marines show up with their siege turret. That was the beginning of the end.

    Point being, if your gorges aren't enabling the rest of the team to get the turret killing weapons by just being bad gorges, then yes the turret farms (minifarms now with the patch <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) will take you out. But if you can just get the second hive built, it becomes almost trivial to take down these fortifications before they do you any major harm.
  • DarkhandDarkhand Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3012Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Infinitum+Nov 7 2002, 03:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Infinitum @ Nov 7 2002, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--total spaceship guy+Nov 7 2002, 01:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (total spaceship guy @ Nov 7 2002, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><img src='http://www.geocities.com/hootkiller/untitled3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sif use PA pic<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ya know for someoen who wants this thread to die I don't remember you actually saying one USEFUL thing towards your side of the argument <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • PhotonPhoton Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5842Members
    I think the siege cannon should have some sort of laser designator, so a marine had to go in to the hive or whatever and point some sort of device at the building and hold it there for the siege to hit....would make it less supernatural
  • HavicWindHavicWind Join Date: 2002-04-16 Member: 461Members
    The siege turret is FAR from unblanced. I play as alien all the time and I take out siege turrets constantly. Base under attack, k get out there and take out siege. Simple as that, and it's actually quite easy. Even seen a skull w/ cele who actually knows how to use it? I can very hard to take down when I'm on a role. Plus there will be least be 1 or 2 of my mates helping me. Siege is great for marines cuz it gives them an edge that they NEED. But any decent alien team can take down any amount of turrets unless backed up by a decent load of marines. So if a marine wanted to keep a turret farm outside a hive they would need to keep liek 3/4 of there team there till the hive was dead. And if the aliens have hive 2 (which they should at the time) then it will be a good match up <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Sieges aren't as powerful as ppl think.
  • MooMoo_the_SnowCowMooMoo_the_SnowCow Join Date: 2002-08-03 Member: 1057Members
    I only read the first post so if anyone allready said this... If you want to live when your hive is getting sieged just spam defence chambers around your hive and it wont die and they will just have a big waste of money sitting there. Once we even had the marines trapped in there base because we put 3 offensive turrets out side the door and spammed some defence chambers behind them and they had 3 sieges not one not two but three sieges!! And we didnt lose one turret so i dont think you can say that sieges are to unbalnced if you know how to use defensive chambers effectively not to mention just going out there and killing there factory.

    (many spelling errors, bad sentence structure but im in a hurry to write this)
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    Dark, I know a group of riled up playtesters who would love to show you the error of your ways. Swing by #nsscrim sometime and we'll see if we can't convince you. :)
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