Yeah like Reasa said, this is just sick. I'm not one of those militant vegetarian types and I certainly would not hesitate to kill animals for the same purpose it was done since milennia, but hell, would it be such a hard thing to kill them off properly before skinning them? I mean, its certainly not that hart to break a foxes neck, not that it would seriously harm the skinners overal productivity ...
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Apr 5 2005, 02:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Apr 5 2005, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Worry about animals when we've taken care of our own problems. The key word is <i>ANIMALS</i>. I don't know about you, but sentient life > animal life in my book. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We too are animals. And while I place human life above an animals life, I cannot do the same for suffering. Dying is the natural order, there is no avoiding it, some must die so that others can live. But there is no reason that any animal should need to suffer like this. Absolutely none. I place an animal's suffering on the same level as a human's, because it is the same. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> While I may not fully agree that an animal's needless suffering is quite equal to a human's needless suffering (If I had to save an animal or a human from what's happening in the video, I'd most likely go for the human first), I have to say that the fact that people actually do this takes away any right for them to live in my book. IMO they're fair game for me or anyone to take the law into their own hands and deal out some good old fashioned street justice.
I'm curious about something. Most of you seem to be condemn the suffering of these animals, and rightly so. Then you go on to condemn the men responsible for the actions as well, again perfectly understandable.
Today I was walking back to my dorm and there was this pigeon stuck in some of the wire netting that was put up yesterday to try and keep them from hanging around under the overhangs and making a rather large and unpleasant mess over our windows. If it doesn't manage to get itself out, or my pleas to the staff to get someone out to let it up, it will slowly starve to death.
Granted this isn't quite the same as being skinned alive, but then again, I'm not sure any of us is in a position to say which is worse...it looked like these foxes were beaten up pretty badly before hand, and shock does wonders for stopping pain, and its over quicker than starvation. Then again starvation doesn't involve having your skin pulled off. At any rate the point was not that pigeon desearves your pity as much as the foxes. but rather what got me thinking about this.
I was feeling some what bad about that pigeon, my responsibility for having that wire installed(small, I never complained about the pigeons, I like having birds around, but I was in the minority) and my inability to really do anything to help it. Its a good three stories up, and I don't have access to a ladder, and when I noticed around 6 everyone had gone home. And it reminded me of this thread.
So what I'm getting to in a long round about manner is; is it the suffering that is really bothering you, or the fact that another human could do such a thing? There are plenty of occasions when our actions indirectly cause needless suffering of animals. Can't think of an example quite so sensationalist as this Peta video (which without trying to diminish what it shows I hope you all realized was an extremly well produced propaganda film[opening with a close-up of the cute animals face for example made seeing it's skin getting ripped off that much worse] that gives you no context for the actions) but surely there are things that come close, probably ones that surpass this.
So, are if the needless suffering is caused accidentally, or more accurately, through carelessness, but is still the same amount of pain, is it as bad as this? If not, why not? In which case, is this thread not more about the human condition, our heart of darkness that we like to hide if you will, more than the suffering of a few animals in another part of the world, that we most likely can have no effect on one way or the other?
And like I began this I'm honestly curious what you have to say about this, rather than trying to trivialize the suffering these animals, or condemn any opinions thus far expressed. But please Actually think about it, in my opinion the right answer isn't going to be what first comes to mind, but what comes later, after honest reflection,
@Euoplocephalus I think what makes us most enraged by the video is the callous disregard that the people in the video displayed toward another living creature. It wouldn't require much additional effort to quickly and humanely kill the animals that were being skinned. With your pigeon example, there isn't a clear, direct relationship between humans and the pigeon, like there is in the video. People put netting up to discourage (but not harm) the pigeons, then the pigeon got stuck. No one wanted to harm the pigeon and it was mostly the fault of the pigeon that it got stuck (although it is difficult to put responsibility on the shoulders of a non-sentient creature). So, in that sense, it isn't necessarily the quantified suffering of an animal that bothers us, it's the actions of a human to cause that suffering that bothers us.
Those people are bastards for the WAY they did that
Why the hell do you skin something alive, except to BE cruel? No, pup a fricken .44 thru it's head, BAM, done and dead, THEN skin it, cook it, and use it ALL
Goddamn wastefull bastards... we ought to skin THEM alive and see how THEY like it...
it is my personal opinion that for every animal that is skinned in this fashion and lives (and yes, some DO live thru being skinned alive) I think that the person that buys this pelt should be REQUIRED to undergo skinning so that that poor animal might have a hide to protect themself.... after all, if they're going to wear animal fur, why do they need skin?
Also, if I recall, birds don't have pain receptors in the way humans / mammals do... *shrug* They can feel "pain" but not like we feel it
It is possible (if unlikely) that killing the animal first is somehow detrimental to the skin... as I said I doubt it.
That is... impressively shocking though. I'm rarely surprised by the depths a person will sink to and...
For all those shouting about hell, I'm sure if you were brought up in the same system they were you'd do it too. Is it disgusting? Yes. Am I defending them? Hell no. I'm simply saying that you could hunt down and kill each of those people and a) You'd be making the world a worse place, propagating the violence. b) It wouldn't solve anything, not even temporarily, it's human nature that needs fixing.
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Apr 12 2005, 11:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Apr 12 2005, 11:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, if I recall, birds don't have pain receptors in the way humans / mammals do... *shrug* They can feel "pain" but not like we feel it <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Two things on this. One, based of my experiences with birds (I love watching wild ones (though no ones that involve trips out of my way early in the morning. I'm not that insane), and have a pet parakeet), they can be easily as smart as mammals. Surely pain is to large extent a mental understanding that something is not right with your body. Just because their pain receptors might work differently (I've never heard of this, with fish, yes, not with birds...not saying its wrong, just haven't heard of it) doesn't mean that its any less horrific to them. They are also capable of not just physical pain, but emotional pain as well. A dove, will follow you if you've killed its mate, be obviously distressed, and never mate again. The pigeons would stand by their trapped friend outside the wire and try and reassure it by cooing. Surely if they can feel that, we can't possibly trivialize their pain over some physical difference they might have with us.
Second: My point was that it is not the suffering that bothers us, so much that another human can cause it. I suspect that to some degree you feel this way based off your vehement attack on these "bastards". It really doesn't matter what the birds feel or the mammals feel, it matters that human did it, whu that human did this, and how we feel about it.
Next, update on the pigeon. Well actually it turns out that there were several stuck under there. Most got out, but today when I went to class one of them was dead. To make it worse (for me) with in a few hours the maintenance people were there to remove it. Now they knew about it, I had complained, and I had heard them talking about other complaints, yet they didn't bother to come until the bird had died of slow starvation, and then suddenly they are their to remove the corpse to keep more people from complaining. Quite mad about it at the moment.
Anyways, back to the post. The clam at least agrees with me, and East brought up the point I was hoping to be able to make:<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it's human nature that needs fixing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel that while the suffering is horrible, clearly its the fact that another human is causing it that bothers us. Most of us don't get all choked up every time we see an animal that is dead, and probably suffered to some degree while dieing.
But why does it bother us so much that another human, that we will never meet, probably thousands of miles away from us, in another culture that probably has vastly different beliefs from our own, that none of us completely understand, is capable of doing this? I think its because deep down we know that this <i>is</i> human nature, and that we ourselves are capable of committing these horrific acts, if the circumstances in our lives were different. What bothers us most is not when something that has nothing to do with us happens, but when something dark in ourselves is brought up and put in our face.
Its not the suffering, its the guilt of knowing deep down in the bottom of your soul, that the people doing this is human, and you are human, and probably you are also capable of such acts. We call them inhumane, to try and separate those acts from ourselves. But how many of these inhuman atrocities have humans committed? From the dawn of man until today horrific acts have been perpetrated by humans; think of all the wars, the Genocides (I can personally think of a bunch with out ever trying:the Holocaust, the Aremainian genocide in WW1, Rwanda, Bosnia, the Darfur), the tortures, slavery and cruel acts perpetrated on other humans, let alone animals. Clearly we are progressing in that these things are no longer acceptable, but they still happen anyways. Why? Maybe what no one wants to admit is that being inhumane, is ultimately an integral part of what being human is.
This might be a good place to bring in the problem that drove Dostoevsky mad; If you could end all other human suffering, but the price was that somewhere someone would torture an innocent child in the basement everyday, could you do it? Is the suffering of one worth the happiness of billions? Is the greater good worth causing that suffering?
Well, actually, most of those people probably are bastards (born before marriage)
Anyway, I think they need to know what they are doing before they are allowed to do it
Seems fair enough, don't you think? Get skinned once, and you can skin as many animals as you like <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There's a lot of bullcrap roaming around these threads. I'm particularly **** off that people feel that women in some essence, DESERVE the beating they get simply because of choices they've made. A hell of a lot of times, the women in shelters had no idea their boyfriends (ASSUMING THE MEN WHO ABUSED THEM EVEN KNEW THEM) were like that.
I also like how certain animals' lives are weighed more than others.
On the video, though, I've seen a lot in my life in both my experiences in Libya and Iraq mainly, and it did take a lot for me to watch a few of the parts in there. I have no idea how somebody could find it humorous, but appearantly people do. I have to question the purpose for showing the film. As somebody mentioned, it's not something we can interfiere in, especially if that particular instant wasn't even within our country's borders. They would've probably even been better off writing an article, desribing the acts, location, and the people doing it. To me, it's a lot like the Nick Berg video that was roaming around online. It's not necessary to show the actual event, though it may create more of a 'shock effect' than an article would.
Women do have a choice if and when they start to get physically abused. You can't blame most of these battered women "for not helping themselves because they might not have known that beatings would have happned when they got together with their boyfriend or husband. Maybe some events <i>after</i> they got together, such as finacial issues, deaths, etcetera could have caused the beatings, and in that case you can't blam the woman, because she couldn't have predicted the future.
This skinning of the animals is very cruel and brutal. The way that those people treated those animals is utterly unacceptable. Despite me thinking this, there is nothing we can do about it and it will go on. Like I have said before, it is very cruel, but notice where the video came from...PETA. I know they want to get a point across, but I would lay money on the fact that they put the absolute worst parts in the video so that they can gain a sympathy vote.
And you, of course as a battered woman, or having experience with a great number of battered women, have full knowledge of the issue you're talking about.
These are the kinds of debates that just don't make any sense. We have a God-given (or evolved for you non-believers) sense of right and wrong and THIS is wrong. Why are we even debating it? Eh, why am I even debating it....
Update on the pigeons. Nothing was done, despite several complaints from several people, taken to a variety of sources. Most however did manage to find a way out. One didn't, and died.
The maitenace people who didn't do **** when they knew that the pigeons were there and alive, came with in a few hours to deal with the corpse....sigh
yeah...maybe thats not really enough of a reason to bump this. But the fact that no one bothered to discuss my last post on the other hand...well I suppose that actual serious, self searching philosphical discussion might beyond the scope of this forum....meh....
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+Apr 20 2005, 03:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ Apr 20 2005, 03:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well do you mean every day until the end of time? Till the end of humanity? Or till the end of that one innocents life? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The sense of it that I had was that there will always be one person suffering. Um its obivously something far and beyond any realistic occurance, so if its always the same or a sucession of innocents it doesn't really matter. Its more of a provocative way to think about what it means to be human, to suffer, etc, than anything close to an actual suggestion
Animals are automatons with a bit of emotion and a simple program. Humans are not, and if you want to hurt or kill someONE over it then your priorities are wrong. Bah, forget it. I agree that it's bad, but I don't hate the perps. Human nature does have a dark side, and I wonder why everyone is afraid to confront it? Some of us enjoy inflicting pain or killing, some are warped and believe it is right to do such things even if they don't get enjoyment out of it - and I hope I never meet any of them, but it's stupid to ignore an element of every human ever born.
BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Apr 20 2005, 07:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Apr 20 2005, 07:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Animals are automatons with a bit of emotion and a simple program. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's massively debatable. You could say the same thing about us, just on a larger scale.
And please, don't get me wrong, im the farthest thing from a PETA type. Im in the woods first weekend of every season.
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Apr 21 2005, 12:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Apr 21 2005, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Animals are automatons with a bit of emotion and a simple program. Humans are not... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for Untruth (imo etc), we are all souless machines and our lives are without purpose or meaning, there is no such thing as right and wrong and the whole idea of ethics is completely subjective. We aren't ignoring it, we have noticed it and now giving our opinion that it is disgusting.
Euoplocephalus: I ask because if it was forever and ever then while humanity ended their suffering would go on and eventually eclipse anything we could come up with...
However that is just me being pedantic. Would I take the 'bargain'? Yup. Would I volunteer for it? Yup. Would I change my mind after a fairly short space of time? Almost certainly.
BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
We have an existentialist. Beaut. "Soulless machine" is an ignorant thing to say. How could you have possibly exposed yourself to enough things to really determine if you have a soul?
How can you possibly say you have exposed yourself to enough things to determine that you <i>do</i> have a soul?
The question is as meaningless as 'does god exist' and in the end it is down to whichever you feel is most right. To me the idea, however distasteful, that there is no such things as souls, afterlives, 'conscious energy', gods etc makes so much more sense than the comforting yet ultimately daft idea that we are actually important.
In my opinion saying we have a soul is just as 'ignorant' as saying we don't, that is to say, it isn't at all. I do believe that accusing others of ignorance about something so metaphysical is strange though, kind of like saying someone is ignorant when they tell you that angels exist. In fact at least my position makes some kind of sense. If I told you I had an intangiable and invisable dragon living in my fridge that only I could see then how could you prove me wrong? Simple, you couldn't as there is nothing anyone could do to prove it either wrong or right. Would people call me insane? Probably, the idea is pretty stupid. Not quite as much as the idea that we somehow survive after we die and then <insert random belief here>. Can you prove yours? No, and yet you feel that my idea is the strange one...
BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
I disagree with his stance, being that it is close minded. Im 17, how the hell am I supposed to know if I have a soul or not? Do I even presume to take a stance? Nope. But his posistion has already decided itself.
You decide based on what you've done/been through so far. Your opinion isn't invalidated just because you're 17.
There really isn't much point talking about it. Opinions on things like this are formed and changed through experiences, not words. Following on from that, you can't really say that CMEast's perspective is ignorant or closeminded. It's merely a result of his experiences so far.
Thank you snidely. I don't consider it ignorant to take a stance in a matter like this. I don't believe in god, others do, neither party is ignorant. The only one I could consider ignorant is 'I don't care whether there is one or not' because they haven't thought about it in the slightest. The idea of a god is important, perhaps <i>the</i> most important idea people can have as it is discussing the foundation of... well everything. The whole universe, every thought and feeling you've ever had. Everything.
I find the idea of a soul to be linked with that idea and I just feel that there isn't one. I offer no proofs because there isn't one, I don't start a topic on it as it would be meaningless. I am far from close minded, I just don't like to sit on the fence, I can't help but think about things and, when I do, I often find myself taking a side.
Comments
Worry about animals when we've taken care of our own problems. The key word is <i>ANIMALS</i>. I don't know about you, but sentient life > animal life in my book. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We too are animals. And while I place human life above an animals life, I cannot do the same for suffering. Dying is the natural order, there is no avoiding it, some must die so that others can live. But there is no reason that any animal should need to suffer like this. Absolutely none. I place an animal's suffering on the same level as a human's, because it is the same. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I may not fully agree that an animal's needless suffering is quite equal to a human's needless suffering (If I had to save an animal or a human from what's happening in the video, I'd most likely go for the human first), I have to say that the fact that people actually do this takes away any right for them to live in my book. IMO they're fair game for me or anyone to take the law into their own hands and deal out some good old fashioned street justice.
Today I was walking back to my dorm and there was this pigeon stuck in some of the wire netting that was put up yesterday to try and keep them from hanging around under the overhangs and making a rather large and unpleasant mess over our windows. If it doesn't manage to get itself out, or my pleas to the staff to get someone out to let it up, it will slowly starve to death.
Granted this isn't quite the same as being skinned alive, but then again, I'm not sure any of us is in a position to say which is worse...it looked like these foxes were beaten up pretty badly before hand, and shock does wonders for stopping pain, and its over quicker than starvation. Then again starvation doesn't involve having your skin pulled off. At any rate the point was not that pigeon desearves your pity as much as the foxes. but rather what got me thinking about this.
I was feeling some what bad about that pigeon, my responsibility for having that wire installed(small, I never complained about the pigeons, I like having birds around, but I was in the minority) and my inability to really do anything to help it. Its a good three stories up, and I don't have access to a ladder, and when I noticed around 6 everyone had gone home. And it reminded me of this thread.
So what I'm getting to in a long round about manner is; is it the suffering that is really bothering you, or the fact that another human could do such a thing? There are plenty of occasions when our actions indirectly cause needless suffering of animals. Can't think of an example quite so sensationalist as this Peta video (which without trying to diminish what it shows I hope you all realized was an extremly well produced propaganda film[opening with a close-up of the cute animals face for example made seeing it's skin getting ripped off that much worse] that gives you no context for the actions) but surely there are things that come close, probably ones that surpass this.
So, are if the needless suffering is caused accidentally, or more accurately, through carelessness, but is still the same amount of pain, is it as bad as this? If not, why not? In which case, is this thread not more about the human condition, our heart of darkness that we like to hide if you will, more than the suffering of a few animals in another part of the world, that we most likely can have no effect on one way or the other?
And like I began this I'm honestly curious what you have to say about this, rather than trying to trivialize the suffering these animals, or condemn any opinions thus far expressed. But please Actually think about it, in my opinion the right answer isn't going to be what first comes to mind, but what comes later, after honest reflection,
I think what makes us most enraged by the video is the callous disregard that the people in the video displayed toward another living creature. It wouldn't require much additional effort to quickly and humanely kill the animals that were being skinned. With your pigeon example, there isn't a clear, direct relationship between humans and the pigeon, like there is in the video. People put netting up to discourage (but not harm) the pigeons, then the pigeon got stuck. No one wanted to harm the pigeon and it was mostly the fault of the pigeon that it got stuck (although it is difficult to put responsibility on the shoulders of a non-sentient creature). So, in that sense, it isn't necessarily the quantified suffering of an animal that bothers us, it's the actions of a human to cause that suffering that bothers us.
Those people are bastards for the WAY they did that
Why the hell do you skin something alive, except to BE cruel? No, pup a fricken .44 thru it's head, BAM, done and dead, THEN skin it, cook it, and use it ALL
Goddamn wastefull bastards... we ought to skin THEM alive and see how THEY like it...
it is my personal opinion that for every animal that is skinned in this fashion and lives (and yes, some DO live thru being skinned alive) I think that the person that buys this pelt should be REQUIRED to undergo skinning so that that poor animal might have a hide to protect themself.... after all, if they're going to wear animal fur, why do they need skin?
Also, if I recall, birds don't have pain receptors in the way humans / mammals do... *shrug* They can feel "pain" but not like we feel it
That is... impressively shocking though. I'm rarely surprised by the depths a person will sink to and...
For all those shouting about hell, I'm sure if you were brought up in the same system they were you'd do it too. Is it disgusting? Yes. Am I defending them? Hell no. I'm simply saying that you could hunt down and kill each of those people and a) You'd be making the world a worse place, propagating the violence. b) It wouldn't solve anything, not even temporarily, it's human nature that needs fixing.
Still I'm glad we're all well trained on here.
not for us to do... that... to...
And no, popping a .44 or .357 in that things head won't touch the pelt... just use a hollowpoint thru the eye socket...
Two things on this. One, based of my experiences with birds (I love watching wild ones (though no ones that involve trips out of my way early in the morning. I'm not that insane), and have a pet parakeet), they can be easily as smart as mammals. Surely pain is to large extent a mental understanding that something is not right with your body. Just because their pain receptors might work differently (I've never heard of this, with fish, yes, not with birds...not saying its wrong, just haven't heard of it) doesn't mean that its any less horrific to them. They are also capable of not just physical pain, but emotional pain as well. A dove, will follow you if you've killed its mate, be obviously distressed, and never mate again. The pigeons would stand by their trapped friend outside the wire and try and reassure it by cooing. Surely if they can feel that, we can't possibly trivialize their pain over some physical difference they might have with us.
Second: My point was that it is not the suffering that bothers us, so much that another human can cause it. I suspect that to some degree you feel this way based off your vehement attack on these "bastards". It really doesn't matter what the birds feel or the mammals feel, it matters that human did it, whu that human did this, and how we feel about it.
Next, update on the pigeon. Well actually it turns out that there were several stuck under there. Most got out, but today when I went to class one of them was dead. To make it worse (for me) with in a few hours the maintenance people were there to remove it. Now they knew about it, I had complained, and I had heard them talking about other complaints, yet they didn't bother to come until the bird had died of slow starvation, and then suddenly they are their to remove the corpse to keep more people from complaining. Quite mad about it at the moment.
Anyways, back to the post. The clam at least agrees with me, and East brought up the point I was hoping to be able to make:<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it's human nature that needs fixing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel that while the suffering is horrible, clearly its the fact that another human is causing it that bothers us. Most of us don't get all choked up every time we see an animal that is dead, and probably suffered to some degree while dieing.
But why does it bother us so much that another human, that we will never meet, probably thousands of miles away from us, in another culture that probably has vastly different beliefs from our own, that none of us completely understand, is capable of doing this? I think its because deep down we know that this <i>is</i> human nature, and that we ourselves are capable of committing these horrific acts, if the circumstances in our lives were different. What bothers us most is not when something that has nothing to do with us happens, but when something dark in ourselves is brought up and put in our face.
Its not the suffering, its the guilt of knowing deep down in the bottom of your soul, that the people doing this is human, and you are human, and probably you are also capable of such acts. We call them inhumane, to try and separate those acts from ourselves. But how many of these inhuman atrocities have humans committed? From the dawn of man until today horrific acts have been perpetrated by humans; think of all the wars, the Genocides (I can personally think of a bunch with out ever trying:the Holocaust, the Aremainian genocide in WW1, Rwanda, Bosnia, the Darfur), the tortures, slavery and cruel acts perpetrated on other humans, let alone animals. Clearly we are progressing in that these things are no longer acceptable, but they still happen anyways. Why? Maybe what no one wants to admit is that being inhumane, is ultimately an integral part of what being human is.
This might be a good place to bring in the problem that drove Dostoevsky mad; If you could end all other human suffering, but the price was that somewhere someone would torture an innocent child in the basement everyday, could you do it? Is the suffering of one worth the happiness of billions? Is the greater good worth causing that suffering?
Anyway, I think they need to know what they are doing before they are allowed to do it
Seems fair enough, don't you think? Get skinned once, and you can skin as many animals as you like <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I also like how certain animals' lives are weighed more than others.
On the video, though, I've seen a lot in my life in both my experiences in Libya and Iraq mainly, and it did take a lot for me to watch a few of the parts in there. I have no idea how somebody could find it humorous, but appearantly people do. I have to question the purpose for showing the film. As somebody mentioned, it's not something we can interfiere in, especially if that particular instant wasn't even within our country's borders. They would've probably even been better off writing an article, desribing the acts, location, and the people doing it. To me, it's a lot like the Nick Berg video that was roaming around online. It's not necessary to show the actual event, though it may create more of a 'shock effect' than an article would.
This skinning of the animals is very cruel and brutal. The way that those people treated those animals is utterly unacceptable. Despite me thinking this, there is nothing we can do about it and it will go on. Like I have said before, it is very cruel, but notice where the video came from...PETA. I know they want to get a point across, but I would lay money on the fact that they put the absolute worst parts in the video so that they can gain a sympathy vote.
~ DarkATi
The maitenace people who didn't do **** when they knew that the pigeons were there and alive, came with in a few hours to deal with the corpse....sigh
yeah...maybe thats not really enough of a reason to bump this. But the fact that no one bothered to discuss my last post on the other hand...well I suppose that actual serious, self searching philosphical discussion might beyond the scope of this forum....meh....
The sense of it that I had was that there will always be one person suffering. Um its obivously something far and beyond any realistic occurance, so if its always the same or a sucession of innocents it doesn't really matter. Its more of a provocative way to think about what it means to be human, to suffer, etc, than anything close to an actual suggestion
That's massively debatable. You could say the same thing about us, just on a larger scale.
And please, don't get me wrong, im the farthest thing from a PETA type. Im in the woods first weekend of every season.
Quoted for Untruth (imo etc), we are all souless machines and our lives are without purpose or meaning, there is no such thing as right and wrong and the whole idea of ethics is completely subjective. We aren't ignoring it, we have noticed it and now giving our opinion that it is disgusting.
Euoplocephalus: I ask because if it was forever and ever then while humanity ended their suffering would go on and eventually eclipse anything we could come up with...
However that is just me being pedantic. Would I take the 'bargain'? Yup. Would I volunteer for it? Yup. Would I change my mind after a fairly short space of time? Almost certainly.
The question is as meaningless as 'does god exist' and in the end it is down to whichever you feel is most right. To me the idea, however distasteful, that there is no such things as souls, afterlives, 'conscious energy', gods etc makes so much more sense than the comforting yet ultimately daft idea that we are actually important.
In my opinion saying we have a soul is just as 'ignorant' as saying we don't, that is to say, it isn't at all. I do believe that accusing others of ignorance about something so metaphysical is strange though, kind of like saying someone is ignorant when they tell you that angels exist. In fact at least my position makes some kind of sense. If I told you I had an intangiable and invisable dragon living in my fridge that only I could see then how could you prove me wrong? Simple, you couldn't as there is nothing anyone could do to prove it either wrong or right. Would people call me insane? Probably, the idea is pretty stupid. Not quite as much as the idea that we somehow survive after we die and then <insert random belief here>. Can you prove yours? No, and yet you feel that my idea is the strange one...
There really isn't much point talking about it. Opinions on things like this are formed and changed through experiences, not words. Following on from that, you can't really say that CMEast's perspective is ignorant or closeminded. It's merely a result of his experiences so far.
I find the idea of a soul to be linked with that idea and I just feel that there isn't one. I offer no proofs because there isn't one, I don't start a topic on it as it would be meaningless. I am far from close minded, I just don't like to sit on the fence, I can't help but think about things and, when I do, I often find myself taking a side.