Large Games, 13 Vs 13 Unbalances
GoldenShadow
Join Date: 2002-04-21 Member: 483Members
Join Date: 2002-04-21 Member: 483Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Late game stalemates always marine win</div> It is my opinion that if the marines get entrenched in an Onos unfriendly hive and get the HA and HMGs/GL, Aliens have no chance of winning. The problem is that when marines work together, they can kill anything that goes down the hallway before it gets to them. with a bunch of electric TFs and sieges in front of the heavies, the onos can't even get close enough to devour. The alien are able to keep the marines from leaving too, so you have yourself a stalemate. Eventually, the marines will kill the aliens by attrition and pushing forward with electric TFs and sieges until they get to the 2nd hive, then its GG.
Their whole team had heavy armor, HMG or GL, we had 5 Onos and gorge lerk supporting them with umbra and they would get stuck on the buildings while the marines tore them apart. We tried a movement rush to the hive and it failed twice. We got the phasegate down, but everyone died and the remaining marines simply built a new phase. wow, 5 onos, a hive gone, for what? a phasegate.
Aliens need some kind of mechanism that only affects large games. My idea was some kind of 'Horde' bonus when you are near another alien. So if the whole team is rushing the same spot, everyone would get a x13 bonus of whatever to help them win. It could make whatever upgrade chamber upgrade they have more effective for them. a celerity onos near 12 other aliens would be much faster. a carapace onos near 12 other alien could take a lot more damage. a regen onos would regen a lot faster, etc
The numbers aren't important right now and they bonuses don't even have to be that big to be noticable, if each alien around you adds 1 to your regen tick and you have 12 guys around you. you get +12 on top of your current regen. but if the other 12 guys have regen too, altogether, the group is getting an extra +144 health per tick .
The important thign is that the aliens have a mechanism so they are stronger the same way marines are stronger when they stay together. You might even want to have a min limit so that this effect doesn't even start until at least 4 aliens are grouped together
Their whole team had heavy armor, HMG or GL, we had 5 Onos and gorge lerk supporting them with umbra and they would get stuck on the buildings while the marines tore them apart. We tried a movement rush to the hive and it failed twice. We got the phasegate down, but everyone died and the remaining marines simply built a new phase. wow, 5 onos, a hive gone, for what? a phasegate.
Aliens need some kind of mechanism that only affects large games. My idea was some kind of 'Horde' bonus when you are near another alien. So if the whole team is rushing the same spot, everyone would get a x13 bonus of whatever to help them win. It could make whatever upgrade chamber upgrade they have more effective for them. a celerity onos near 12 other aliens would be much faster. a carapace onos near 12 other alien could take a lot more damage. a regen onos would regen a lot faster, etc
The numbers aren't important right now and they bonuses don't even have to be that big to be noticable, if each alien around you adds 1 to your regen tick and you have 12 guys around you. you get +12 on top of your current regen. but if the other 12 guys have regen too, altogether, the group is getting an extra +144 health per tick .
The important thign is that the aliens have a mechanism so they are stronger the same way marines are stronger when they stay together. You might even want to have a min limit so that this effect doesn't even start until at least 4 aliens are grouped together
Comments
I hate to be rude, but no sh*t Sherlock. NS is balanced around 6v6 - find a server closer to that size.
He said that its <i>balanced</i> around 6v6.
It would be nearly impossible to stop 11 oni and a lerk unmbra with that many hmgs.
It makes sense... but approach it from this angle...
When marines are stuck, say in a hive, with elec tf's, turrets, sieges, and heavy/hmg's EVERY SINGLE MARINE IS WORKING TOGETHER.....
This also consequently means you control the entire map.....
Now what happens here:
Ive stated before.... The entire marine team, due to thier proximity, is working together...
ALiens however.... do not....
Case 1: Frontal assault...
Get EVERY SINGLE ALIEN to go ONOS with CARAPACE, CELERITY,... thats 12 onos (have your best Fad'er go fade)
Line the onos up somewhere outside the hive, and have the fade start to go in.... as soon as he enter's, count to 5 then have 12 onos run in
The Fade blinks around and most likely dies.... but what he does is sap up a lot of the fire from the guns......
The 12 onos come in one at a time... im positive the first 3-5 will die before they reach the marines...... But then what happens? OH MY GOD... THE MARINES HAVE TO RELOAD??? At this point... the game is over.... the 6-8 surviving onos overrun while the marines scream and try to reload thier GL's, and Hmg's... and Quite simply... the game is over.......
13 Marines Trenched in... 13 Aliens ACTUALLY WORKING TOGETHER... marines dont stand a chance.....
Note: you may have to wait 3-5 minutes before attempting this assault... but they are turtled up remember...... just contain rather than attack... DONT GIVE THEM RFK and DONT LET THEM NINJA ANYTHING... just CONTAIN while you get onos's
Note 2: If there are JP's... bash down that armory/Arms lab as your top priority while they reload you will surely get both in that time fram with 6-8 surviving onos, from there... if 6-8 onos converge on the CC, itll go down in mere seconds.... remember all hell will be broken loose and the comm most likely will not drop another..... If he does who cares.... just bash whatever you can in thier base until you all die... Im assuming theoretically that even after thier second HMG clips are emptied... there will be 2-3 onos left alive....... Assuming not EVERY SINGLE HMG bullet lands.......
Third and final note: Ive done this sucessfully MULTIPLE TIMES on larger server's to end a 1-2 res marine turtle
Case 2: Divide and Conquer
Split up into two teams of 6... im guessing 2 onos, 2 fade, 2 lerk....
Have each fall back WELL BACK to each side of wherever the turtle is occuring..... Im talking NO ONE GOES NEAR TE MARINES... LET TEM COME OUT....
The marines main strength here is thier concentration of fire.... so why not let them out...
Turn it into a waiting game..... eventually they will get bored and the comm will order a large force OUT OF THIER BASE... leaving only a few defenders...
Whichever way they go... that group of aliens becomes the skirmishers, while the other group STAYS PUT AND DOESENT MOVE (NO MT VIEWING FOR THE COMM)
The skirmishers put up a fight with thier main intent on staying alive..... but steadily falling back....preferably towards a hive (lure the marines).... Now the marines are in the process of building a PG outside ur hive... there are now even less people in base as the comm sent a few more out to help....
This is when Team 2 strikes... pouring into the marines base probably just as they arrive at the siege location of the hive....at the same time Team 1 falls back INTO the hive....
Team 2's main target would be the armslab and th PG (in case they get the pG up we dont want 6 ha's phasing back now do we)
From there pick base apart........
Note: even with 2-3 HA in base defending it.. 2 onos, 2 fade's and 2 lerks should be able to take that fine
Note 2: The skirmish team should lose on purpose with main intention of feigning attacking... ur really luring them far enough away from thier base (and into a false sense of security) so just keep falling back slowly.....
Both of these ive done numerous times.... The absolute hardest thing to do is organize an endgame alien team to do this... but when it is done, it works, i will vouch for it repeatedly.....
The reason a marine turtle works so well is not only do they have concentration of firepower, but they are all working together due to thier proximity, wheras aliens are all like lets see if i can get a few more kills......
ALiens... ALter your mindset... and realize.. its 13V13.. not 13 marines verses just you... you ahve teammates.. work together...
WHO CARES IF U LEAD THE ONOS CHARGE AND ARE SLICED DOWN BY HMG FIRE... YOU STILL WIN THE GAME BECAUSE OTHERS GET THROUGH... SO YOU DONT GET THE GLORY OF A SUPRE HIGH KILL COUNT... TE GAME IS OVER.. AND WE CAN PLAY ANOTHER NOW... YAAY
Final note..... there are many variations of the above, and as many of you know ive done many of those as well... i tried to keep the above as generic as possible, but they will end marine turtles without any problems....
Good Luck Aliens....
The luck is for actually coaxing a pub alien team to work together....
~Jason
Its a good plan that would work, but certain maps are unfriendly to Onos, they have ladders and cramped hallways. add a bunch of marine buildings in the way is a recipe for failure. When you lose that many onos at one time, your whole team is gonna be skulks. If you fail to free up your third hive, you just gave the marines a big window to finish you off.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i have played a 10vs10 game and all aliens wnet onos for fun but we killed em all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> .The first one started dieing and started to retreat and blocked the others so there rush turned out to be a traffic jam.
midsized games: pretty balanced
big games: whoever gets an advantage the first few minutes wins.
Now the trend is 6v6 Kharaa dominance, 8v8 Kharaa dominance, and any bigger Kharaa dominance.
The new upgrades and good res flow in small games helps the Kharaa there.
In big games, the big suprise is that many skulks kill many marines much more easily than the other way round. Marine RTs go down faster with more skulks biting or more skulks willing to bite. And when fades come, it's not 1 or 2. It's 3 or 4.
Seems the only way to win in big games now is to lockdown the 2nd hive ASAP, capping RTs along the way for res. Tech up to weap 2 shotguns to hurt or kill fades, and meanwhile lockdown the other hive. After both hives are locked with elect and turrets and marines are roaming with L2 shotguns/hmgs, elect all nozzles in sight.
Not electing nozzles means they go down while marines are in the midst of an assault, and losing that assault = loss of RTs, loss of equipment lost at assault, which makes it impossible to win.
Last time I checked, gorgies don't last long.
Church is right here...
But marines turtled up in a hive can still take ages to defeat if they have full tech and ****... they can live off taht resnode and RFK for a long time.....
Let them out of the hive....
~Jason
Let them out of the hive.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't want to leave them alone. They'll just wait until they have enough res for a full HA train. You want to hit them before they can get res. Have everyone go onos except for 2 lerks who umbra. The marines won't have enough ammo to kill everyone, regardless of how well they can aim.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=89331' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=89331</a>
I came to the conclusion that aliens need to use their only advantage in large games, their huge starting res advantage. To do that, you'll want to get lots of early lerks to shut down the marines early and midgame, until you can get fades and a second hive.
Let them out of the hive.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't want to leave them alone. They'll just wait until they have enough res for a full HA train. You want to hit them before they can get res. Have everyone go onos except for 2 lerks who umbra. The marines won't have enough ammo to kill everyone, regardless of how well they can aim. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original poster assumes they already HAVE that full HA train....
And you have 9 nodes.... so ur gonna be fine having people go onos 2-3 at a time... while the rest just contain them in the hive.... its simple really....
And many have said i have a gift for organizing teams...... im now very good at it.. and people listen.... try it.... ull be amazed at how well it works...
Im not talking 13 eggs going onos...
Im talking those that GO onos dont freaking die (1900hp, just contain them with stomp no rushing until ur team is ready)
Also i dont really care id rather let them out of thier base and smash them from the other end.... s'more fun that way.... Rather than a 2 hour turtle with fully teched marines hiding behind turrets of dewm
Now ill try to further my argument.... Assume they do get that HA train... and they leave the hive and marchy marchy off somewhere to siege a hive... Assume they DO reach that hive... What happens now... You go destroy thier base..... Phase 1 is force the relocate.... Normally the game will be over right here....I guarantee the comm doesent have 200 spare res sitting around to construct a whole new base... and half ur team rushing his base defended by like 2 marines isnt gonna allow him to recycle a whole lot... You win.....
Personally i usually just do the onos rush... unless im feeling creative.... but both of them have a 100 percent sucess rate, as does any strat vs endgame marines.... Just mine does it faster.... which is better cuz i hate 2 hour turtles....
~Jason
Surprizingly enough a game balanced around 6v6 is not balanced for 13v13 play or 3v3 play! Who would have thunk it!
In a 13v13, hell, half the team can go lerk within a 2 minutes of game start I guarantee, and with all of them gassing, the comm will need to drop a LOT of meds (12 marines to drop for), meanwhile he also needs to spend 40 resources building 2 extra IPs just because the alien spawn rate goes up for FREE in bigger games and the marines need to keep trrops on the field. Add in the general alien buffs (like FREE upgrades. no more complaining the aliens have ot pay for it each time!) and the game is not balanced at all when there are competent aliens.
One way to start fixing this is to let marine res be scale-able as well!
Have marine starting res be 120 minimum, and for each player over 6, another 10 resources is added to the marine starting pool. So, a 13v13 would let the marines start with 190 res. Enough for 3 IPs (this will let the marines match and maybe overtake a bit the alien spawn rate), an arms lab, obs, armory, and still have 85 res left over for a few packs of mines, armor1, phase tech, and maybe one welder for a weldable. Then, the comm would have just enough res left to drop 2 RTs probably.
Given that in a 13v13 game, aliens get 325 resources to start with, it is only fair marines get more res as well to counter the MULTITUDES of higher lifeforms they must face, not to mention the ridiculous amount of medpacks the comm must spend (he's got a LOT of marines to med).
In a 13v13, hell, half the team can go lerk within a 2 minutes of game start I guarantee, and with all of them gassing, the comm will need to drop a LOT of meds (12 marines to drop for), meanwhile he also needs to spend 40 resources building 2 extra IPs just because the alien spawn rate goes up for FREE in bigger games and the marines need to keep trrops on the field. Add in the general alien buffs (like FREE upgrades. no more complaining the aliens have ot pay for it each time!) and the game is not balanced at all when there are competent aliens.
One way to start fixing this is to let marine res be scale-able as well!
Have marine starting res be 120 minimum, and for each player over 6, another 10 resources is added to the marine starting pool. So, a 13v13 would let the marines start with 190 res. Enough for 3 IPs (this will let the marines match and maybe overtake a bit the alien spawn rate), an arms lab, obs, armory, and still have 85 res left over for a few packs of mines, armor1, phase tech, and maybe one welder for a weldable. Then, the comm would have just enough res left to drop 2 RTs probably.
Given that in a 13v13 game, aliens get 325 resources to start with, it is only fair marines get more res as well to counter the MULTITUDES of higher lifeforms they must face, not to mention the ridiculous amount of medpacks the comm must spend (he's got a LOT of marines to med). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scaling the marine res hard number was the main goal for 3.02... for some reason it has been stated that manipulating that number is more work then it is worth, so they tweaked the structure costs instead. increasing/decreasing the structure costs as a variable are NOT a good idea.
Yes, because we'd love to see more hives being taken down by sneak PG's, and less through actual attacks in play.
Damn, where'd I put that [/sarcasm] tag again?
- Shockwave
Scale down instead of up, I hope? Up was in 1.04, and we all know how balanced the res flow was then...
Yes, because we'd love to see more hives being taken down by sneak PG's, and less through actual attacks in play.
Damn, where'd I put that [/sarcasm] tag again?
- Shockwave <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
With so many SCs, it's impossible to ninja a phase gate as it is. And hey, it's a very legitimate strategy. Should aliens not be allowed to sneak into MArine start when no one is around and proceed to take out the ObS and then quite a few marine sttructures? Ninja phasing is a part of the game. Otherwise why doesn't the commander just freakin TELL THE ALIENS WHERE HE IS GOING TO GO NEXT? Aliens are the defenders. The marines are the aggressors. Marines need to take any chance they get at getting past the defenses.
As people like to say lately...ADAPT FOR DIE!
As people like to say lately...ADAPT FOR DIE! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha Natural Selection diddnt fare you too well in the spelling department huh?? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Adapt or Die church...... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And hey, SDJason probably likes his PGs just as much as I do. How else can he do his Hand Grenade strat?