<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're right that illegal immigration is a security risk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we need a national ID.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're right that illegal immigration is a security risk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How would that help?
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't see why a terrorist can't entry the country legally, like most (if not all) of the 9/11 terrorists did. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The vast majority of Middle Easterners and Indians enter the country legally. I think it would have been far more odd for them to come illegally than legally.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 10:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're right that illegal immigration is a security risk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would that help? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To help weed out the immigrants everyone seems to get rid of. They don't have an ID, they can't get a job. If someone forges one, theyve forged a federal document. That would limit the ammount of immigrants able to get a job. Therefore, less incentive to come to US (jobs not as easy to get).
It would also help against terrorism. I forget the whole ideal behind it. I'll ask about it later.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 6 2005, 12:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 6 2005, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 10:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're right that illegal immigration is a security risk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would that help? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To help weed out the immigrants everyone seems to get rid of. They don't have an ID, they can't get a job. If someone forges one, theyve forged a federal document. That would limit the ammount of immigrants able to get a job. Therefore, less incentive to come to US (jobs not as easy to get).
It would also help against terrorism. I forget the whole ideal behind it. I'll ask about it later. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is an example of a situation where the solution is worse than the problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 6 2005, 01:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 6 2005, 01:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 6 2005, 12:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 6 2005, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 10:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're right that illegal immigration is a security risk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would that help? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To help weed out the immigrants everyone seems to get rid of. They don't have an ID, they can't get a job. If someone forges one, theyve forged a federal document. That would limit the ammount of immigrants able to get a job. Therefore, less incentive to come to US (jobs not as easy to get).
It would also help against terrorism. I forget the whole ideal behind it. I'll ask about it later. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is an example of a situation where the solution is worse than the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The next step is for the National ID to be surgically implanted into us. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're right that illegal immigration is a security risk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Government over here in the UK have dropped the idea for national identity cards, thank God. (At least for now.)
Doesn't Spain have an identity card system? I'm pretty sure they do. If so, it didn't help much when terrorists bombed Madrid.
I hear people say they are bad, but they never say why except that "OMG!!!!11!!!one!!1! Big Brother!" I want a valid reason why. All I can think of is good things.
You could combine the National ID with drivers license or whatever.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Apr 6 2005, 12:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Apr 6 2005, 12:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because it's more bureaucracy that doesn't really help solve any problems. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So identity theft (which includes credit card fraud) and illegal immigrants are not important problems? Interesting world you live in.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 6 2005, 08:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 6 2005, 08:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Apr 6 2005, 12:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Apr 6 2005, 12:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because it's more bureaucracy that doesn't really help solve any problems. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So identity theft (which includes credit card fraud) and illegal immigrants are not important problems? Interesting world you live in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> People steal social security numbers. People commit credit card fraud. How would a national ID be any different in preventing identity theft?
Also, illegal aliens can find forged national IDs, just like they can find other forged documents.
National ID cards would be a bad idea for America, not only would they get stolen and forged, but people would forget them when needed yada yada we all know it would be a mess.
Honestly the more I think about it the more I think that a defensive wall manned by soldiers is really the best thing we could do to solve this problem.
Not only would it prevent illegal aliens from getting into the country, but it would also prevent terrorists from sneaking in that way, which we all know hundreds could be as I type this. (Necessary exaggeration)
It would cost allot, but I wasn't joking when I suggested we pay Mexican workers to build it. Money is money to them and I doubt they would care much. Having no shortage of cheap labor would certainly drive down the cost.
As for the cost, it would be expensive, however no more expensive then the invasion of Iraq, in fact it would probably cost less. Over time it would eventually pay for itself once you factor in the money being saved on welfare, hospital bills, deportation costs etc.
To be fair we could increase our quota of Mexican immigrants allowed to come into the country legally and perhaps speed up the process.
I can see only benefits for the nation if this were done, maybe it’s just me?
Immigrants coming into this nation HELP our economy, it doesn't hurt it.
Christ, new people = new consumers = new jobs created = stronger economy.
Oh, and if you say crap like "money flowing out of the country", please realize that ALL OF A NATION'S CURRENCY INEVITABLY COME BACK IN THE FORM OF DEMAND FOR THAT NATION'S GOODS.
The cost of the wall between Israel and Palestine is about $1m/km. If you take that and apply that to the border between Mexico and the US, then it's about $3.22 billion dollars. Note that this is a very rough estimate.
This is quite interesting: <a href='http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"There are great misperceptions that immigrants are a drain on our economy, but many studies have confirmed that the opposite is true. Even undocumented workers - commonly referred to as 'illegal' contribute more than their fair share to our great country." (Alan Greenspan Federal Reserve Board chairman, congressional testimony, July 2001.) ... Alan Greenspan informed Congress that <b>immigrants, including undocumented workers, in essence donate $27 billion to state and local economies. This is the difference between what they pay in taxes ($70 billion) and what they use in services ($43 billion).</b> In Illinois alone, he testified, "Illegal workers pay $547 million in taxes yearly, compared to $238 million in services used." This is a net "profit" for Illinois of $309 million. This phenomenon is the norm, not the exception, in states where undocumented workers pay taxes. Indeed, rather than take money from, undocumented workers donate money to the American economy and thus to Americans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess this statement is wrong, reasa: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the cost, it would be expensive, however no more expensive then the invasion of Iraq, in fact it would probably cost less. Over time it would eventually pay for itself once you factor in the money being saved on welfare, hospital bills, deportation costs etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only benefit that I can see of your proposal would be to prevent terrorists from coming into the US through the Mexican border. However, if you consider the thousands of miles of coastline and Canadian border that we'd have to protect (if you saw Fahrenheit 9/11, you'll have seen the story about the Oregonian state cop who had to oversee several hundred miles of coastline by himself) and the fact that terrorists have come into the US legally (the 9/11 terrorists), you'll see that the wall won't hinder them much.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 7 2005, 02:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 7 2005, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The cost of the wall between Israel and Palestine is about $1m/km. If you take that and apply that to the border between Mexico and the US, then it's about $3.22 billion dollars. Note that this is a very rough estimate.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Best 3.22 billion we would ever spend. Cut back on some of the pork barrel projects that are absolutely worthless and we'll have more then enough money to go around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is quite interesting: <a href='http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"There are great misperceptions that immigrants are a drain on our economy, but many studies have confirmed that the opposite is true. Even undocumented workers - commonly referred to as 'illegal' contribute more than their fair share to our great country." (Alan Greenspan Federal Reserve Board chairman, congressional testimony, July 2001.) ... Alan Greenspan informed Congress that <b>immigrants, including undocumented workers, in essence donate $27 billion to state and local economies. This is the difference between what they pay in taxes ($70 billion) and what they use in services ($43 billion).</b> In Illinois alone, he testified, "Illegal workers pay $547 million in taxes yearly, compared to $238 million in services used." This is a net "profit" for Illinois of $309 million. This phenomenon is the norm, not the exception, in states where undocumented workers pay taxes. Indeed, rather than take money from, undocumented workers donate money to the American economy and thus to Americans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is interesting; I wonder where all the money goes? I mean according to this we should be rolling in cash. If they "more then pay for themselves" then why have so many hospitals had to close down near the border, why don't they see the money? Greenspan is also a questionable source of information for you to be citing seeing as he is a big fan of Bush's Social Security reform, which I would assume you don't agree with.
That article is nice but it doesn’t really say where all this extra cash--illegal cash--is going. "The economy" is a pretty broad statement, where as I can tell you exactly where the illegals are sucking money and services from, I would expect you to tell me exactly where they are putting money and resources back in...apparently more so then they take, as you say.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only benefit that I can see of your proposal would be to prevent terrorists from coming into the US through the Mexican border. However, if you consider the thousands of miles of coastline and Canadian border that we'd have to protect (if you saw Fahrenheit 9/11, you'll have seen the story about the Oregonian state cop who had to oversee several hundred miles of coastline by himself) and the fact that terrorists have come into the US legally (the 9/11 terrorists), you'll see that the wall won't hinder them much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the added security is a fairly large bonus in itself not to be brushed off lightly, but the other benefits you see as questionable, many others will agree with. It would put a nice dent in the drug trade I would imagine, but that is not its intended goal.
It is to stop illegal immigrants from coming into America. What is the point of even being born a US citizen? The term means nothing today. Unless you want to be president (and who knows that could change soon) you can do anything you want in America as an illegal that and American citizen can. We are devaluing ourselves, our laws, and our nation.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Apr 7 2005, 06:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Apr 7 2005, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 7 2005, 02:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 7 2005, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The cost of the wall between Israel and Palestine is about $1m/km. If you take that and apply that to the border between Mexico and the US, then it's about $3.22 billion dollars. Note that this is a very rough estimate.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Best 3.22 billion we would ever spend. Cut back on some of the pork barrel projects that are absolutely worthless and we'll have more then enough money to go around. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Mmm...Irony. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is quite interesting: <a href='http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"There are great misperceptions that immigrants are a drain on our economy, but many studies have confirmed that the opposite is true. Even undocumented workers - commonly referred to as 'illegal' contribute more than their fair share to our great country." (Alan Greenspan Federal Reserve Board chairman, congressional testimony, July 2001.) ... Alan Greenspan informed Congress that <b>immigrants, including undocumented workers, in essence donate $27 billion to state and local economies. This is the difference between what they pay in taxes ($70 billion) and what they use in services ($43 billion).</b> In Illinois alone, he testified, "Illegal workers pay $547 million in taxes yearly, compared to $238 million in services used." This is a net "profit" for Illinois of $309 million. This phenomenon is the norm, not the exception, in states where undocumented workers pay taxes. Indeed, rather than take money from, undocumented workers donate money to the American economy and thus to Americans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is interesting; I wonder where all the money goes? I mean according to this we should be rolling in cash. If they "more then pay for themselves" then why have so many hospitals had to close down near the border, why don't they see the money? Greenspan is also a questionable source of information for you to be citing seeing as he is a big fan of Bush's Social Security reform, which I would assume you don't agree with.
That article is nice but it doesn’t really say where all this extra cash--illegal cash--is going. "The economy" is a pretty broad statement, where as I can tell you exactly where the illegals are sucking money and services from, I would expect you to tell me exactly where they are putting money and resources back in...apparently more so then they take, as you say.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As much as I don't like some of his policies, I still think he's a reputable source for raw information.
The cash is going to taxes, like the article said. I would assume that the hospitals close down because we have a private, not public, health institution, but hospitals are still required to take people who can't pay, if they have emergencies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only benefit that I can see of your proposal would be to prevent terrorists from coming into the US through the Mexican border. However, if you consider the thousands of miles of coastline and Canadian border that we'd have to protect (if you saw Fahrenheit 9/11, you'll have seen the story about the Oregonian state cop who had to oversee several hundred miles of coastline by himself) and the fact that terrorists have come into the US legally (the 9/11 terrorists), you'll see that the wall won't hinder them much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the added security is a fairly large bonus in itself not to be brushed off lightly, but the other benefits you see as questionable, many others will agree with. It would put a nice dent in the drug trade I would imagine, but that is not its intended goal.
It is to stop illegal immigrants from coming into America. What is the point of even being born a US citizen? The term means nothing today. Unless you want to be president (and who knows that could change soon) you can do anything you want in America as an illegal that and American citizen can. We are devaluing ourselves, our laws, and our nation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It would put a big dent in the drug trade, but I don't think it would put a big dent in terrorism, at all. Like I said, we've still got a huge border with Canada and two huge coastlines, that have to be guarded. As for your statements about the value of American citizenship and the devaluation of America, that's just crap. Mexican immigrants devalue American society just as much as your ancestors did (and mine did), when they first came over here. America is a country full of immigrants. If anything, Mexican immigrants <i>add</i> value to society.
You're coming dangerously close to racism here, reasa. American culture isn't necessarily better than Mexican culture and Americans don't deserve to live in a first world country any more than Mexicans do.
Also, I just realized that if we suddenly allowed more immigrants to come in, legally, then reasa's nightmare would come true. We'd have to give them government services.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 7 2005, 07:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 7 2005, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, I just realized that if we suddenly allowed more immigrants to come in, legally, then reasa's nightmare would come true. We'd have to give them government services. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh were headed down the road of economic ruin as it is, so sure, why not just put the bullet through our national brain now.
Immigration quotas are different for every region, that hardly seems fair does it? It seems like a matter of respect to me!
Raise the quotas. A lot. Immigrants don't hurt the US, rather, they provide a mainstay of industriousness and fortitude in a country of ever increasing complacency and stagnation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
By the way, the whole "security" thing is nonsense. The Chinese didn't even build their wall to keep people out. They built it to discourage raiders. A wall made it harder for them to escape with spoils.
Apart from the laughable suggestion that every single person on a wall that size is going to be willing to refuse bribes, there's also the fact that you've got an awful lot of coastline round the rest of America. You honestly think that immigrants and terrorists can't catch a boat?
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 8 2005, 04:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 8 2005, 04:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You honestly think that immigrants and terrorists can't catch a boat? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's pretty true. Asian illegal immigrants are more than willing to pack themselves like sardines in a boat and nearly die on their way coming here. I can't really hate people who go that far...
But laws are laws and you don't go breaking them when you have an alternative.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 6 2005, 01:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 6 2005, 01:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 6 2005, 12:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 6 2005, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 10:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're right that illegal immigration is a security risk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would that help? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To help weed out the immigrants everyone seems to get rid of. They don't have an ID, they can't get a job. If someone forges one, theyve forged a federal document. That would limit the ammount of immigrants able to get a job. Therefore, less incentive to come to US (jobs not as easy to get).
It would also help against terrorism. I forget the whole ideal behind it. I'll ask about it later. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is an example of a situation where the solution is worse than the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Note that we already have a national ID - SSN - which is legally required for employment. Does that stop undocumented immigrants from getting jobs?
<!--QuoteBegin-meep+Apr 9 2005, 05:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (meep @ Apr 9 2005, 05:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 6 2005, 01:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 6 2005, 01:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 6 2005, 12:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 6 2005, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 10:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheDestroyer+Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheDestroyer @ Apr 5 2005, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 5 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're right that illegal immigration is a security risk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would that help? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To help weed out the immigrants everyone seems to get rid of. They don't have an ID, they can't get a job. If someone forges one, theyve forged a federal document. That would limit the ammount of immigrants able to get a job. Therefore, less incentive to come to US (jobs not as easy to get).
It would also help against terrorism. I forget the whole ideal behind it. I'll ask about it later. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is an example of a situation where the solution is worse than the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Note that we already have a national ID - SSN - which is legally required for employment. Does that stop undocumented immigrants from getting jobs? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps the employers are just as much of an issue. But tightening the vise on them would cause no end of pain on all parties.
I honestly see no reason to be angry at immigrants acquiring jobs and doing them for less pay and longer hours. If anything, we should demand that they be educated and equalize their pay, rather than yelling at them for not being educated. I've been saying this again and again, but they must be Naturalized. And this process of de-marginalizing via socialization must start with the first generation of immigrants. The next generation's behaviour is simply an outcome of the first's.
I'm not trying to pretend that it's an easy fix either. You can't honestly go and teach each and every immigrant the do's and do not's. The only solution is some sort of centralized approach, where immigrants can be trusted to come of their own will. I guess that sounds crazy but, plenty of immigrants come to special "pick-up areas" to go to their manual labor related day jobs, so they know their own needs. The government just needs to convince them that they "need" this.
Comments
Which is why we need a national ID.
Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would that help?
The vast majority of Middle Easterners and Indians enter the country legally. I think it would have been far more odd for them to come illegally than legally.
Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would that help? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To help weed out the immigrants everyone seems to get rid of. They don't have an ID, they can't get a job. If someone forges one, theyve forged a federal document. That would limit the ammount of immigrants able to get a job. Therefore, less incentive to come to US (jobs not as easy to get).
It would also help against terrorism. I forget the whole ideal behind it. I'll ask about it later.
Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would that help? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To help weed out the immigrants everyone seems to get rid of. They don't have an ID, they can't get a job. If someone forges one, theyve forged a federal document. That would limit the ammount of immigrants able to get a job. Therefore, less incentive to come to US (jobs not as easy to get).
It would also help against terrorism. I forget the whole ideal behind it. I'll ask about it later. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is an example of a situation where the solution is worse than the problem.
Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would that help? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To help weed out the immigrants everyone seems to get rid of. They don't have an ID, they can't get a job. If someone forges one, theyve forged a federal document. That would limit the ammount of immigrants able to get a job. Therefore, less incentive to come to US (jobs not as easy to get).
It would also help against terrorism. I forget the whole ideal behind it. I'll ask about it later. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is an example of a situation where the solution is worse than the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The next step is for the National ID to be surgically implanted into us. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Government over here in the UK have dropped the idea for national identity cards, thank God. (At least for now.)
Doesn't Spain have an identity card system? I'm pretty sure they do. If so, it didn't help much when terrorists bombed Madrid.
I hear people say they are bad, but they never say why except that "OMG!!!!11!!!one!!1! Big Brother!" I want a valid reason why. All I can think of is good things.
You could combine the National ID with drivers license or whatever.
So identity theft (which includes credit card fraud) and illegal immigrants are not important problems? Interesting world you live in.
So identity theft (which includes credit card fraud) and illegal immigrants are not important problems? Interesting world you live in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
People steal social security numbers. People commit credit card fraud. How would a national ID be any different in preventing identity theft?
Also, illegal aliens can find forged national IDs, just like they can find other forged documents.
When it comes down to it, I'd rather the money is used to help someone (illegal immigrant or no) than get swallowed up in ID cards.
Honestly the more I think about it the more I think that a defensive wall manned by soldiers is really the best thing we could do to solve this problem.
Not only would it prevent illegal aliens from getting into the country, but it would also prevent terrorists from sneaking in that way, which we all know hundreds could be as I type this. (Necessary exaggeration)
It would cost allot, but I wasn't joking when I suggested we pay Mexican workers to build it. Money is money to them and I doubt they would care much.
Having no shortage of cheap labor would certainly drive down the cost.
As for the cost, it would be expensive, however no more expensive then the invasion of Iraq, in fact it would probably cost less.
Over time it would eventually pay for itself once you factor in the money being saved on welfare, hospital bills, deportation costs etc.
To be fair we could increase our quota of Mexican immigrants allowed to come into the country legally and perhaps speed up the process.
I can see only benefits for the nation if this were done, maybe it’s just me?
Immigrants coming into this nation HELP our economy, it doesn't hurt it.
Christ, new people = new consumers = new jobs created = stronger economy.
Oh, and if you say crap like "money flowing out of the country", please realize that ALL OF A NATION'S CURRENCY INEVITABLY COME BACK IN THE FORM OF DEMAND FOR THAT NATION'S GOODS.
This is quite interesting:
<a href='http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"There are great misperceptions that immigrants are a drain on our economy, but many studies have confirmed that the opposite is true. Even undocumented workers - commonly referred to as 'illegal' contribute more than their fair share to our great country." (Alan Greenspan Federal Reserve Board chairman, congressional testimony, July 2001.)
...
Alan Greenspan informed Congress that <b>immigrants, including undocumented workers, in essence donate $27 billion to state and local economies. This is the difference between what they pay in taxes ($70 billion) and what they use in services ($43 billion).</b> In Illinois alone, he testified, "Illegal workers pay $547 million in taxes yearly, compared to $238 million in services used." This is a net "profit" for Illinois of $309 million. This phenomenon is the norm, not the exception, in states where undocumented workers pay taxes. Indeed, rather than take money from, undocumented workers donate money to the American economy and thus to Americans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess this statement is wrong, reasa:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the cost, it would be expensive, however no more expensive then the invasion of Iraq, in fact it would probably cost less.
Over time it would eventually pay for itself once you factor in the money being saved on welfare, hospital bills, deportation costs etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only benefit that I can see of your proposal would be to prevent terrorists from coming into the US through the Mexican border. However, if you consider the thousands of miles of coastline and Canadian border that we'd have to protect (if you saw Fahrenheit 9/11, you'll have seen the story about the Oregonian state cop who had to oversee several hundred miles of coastline by himself) and the fact that terrorists have come into the US legally (the 9/11 terrorists), you'll see that the wall won't hinder them much.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best 3.22 billion we would ever spend. Cut back on some of the pork barrel projects that are absolutely worthless and we'll have more then enough money to go around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is quite interesting:
<a href='http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"There are great misperceptions that immigrants are a drain on our economy, but many studies have confirmed that the opposite is true. Even undocumented workers - commonly referred to as 'illegal' contribute more than their fair share to our great country." (Alan Greenspan Federal Reserve Board chairman, congressional testimony, July 2001.)
...
Alan Greenspan informed Congress that <b>immigrants, including undocumented workers, in essence donate $27 billion to state and local economies. This is the difference between what they pay in taxes ($70 billion) and what they use in services ($43 billion).</b> In Illinois alone, he testified, "Illegal workers pay $547 million in taxes yearly, compared to $238 million in services used." This is a net "profit" for Illinois of $309 million. This phenomenon is the norm, not the exception, in states where undocumented workers pay taxes. Indeed, rather than take money from, undocumented workers donate money to the American economy and thus to Americans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is interesting; I wonder where all the money goes? I mean according to this we should be rolling in cash. If they "more then pay for themselves" then why have so many hospitals had to close down near the border, why don't they see the money? Greenspan is also a questionable source of information for you to be citing seeing as he is a big fan of Bush's Social Security reform, which I would assume you don't agree with.
That article is nice but it doesn’t really say where all this extra cash--illegal cash--is going. "The economy" is a pretty broad statement, where as I can tell you exactly where the illegals are sucking money and services from, I would expect you to tell me exactly where they are putting money and resources back in...apparently more so then they take, as you say.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only benefit that I can see of your proposal would be to prevent terrorists from coming into the US through the Mexican border. However, if you consider the thousands of miles of coastline and Canadian border that we'd have to protect (if you saw Fahrenheit 9/11, you'll have seen the story about the Oregonian state cop who had to oversee several hundred miles of coastline by himself) and the fact that terrorists have come into the US legally (the 9/11 terrorists), you'll see that the wall won't hinder them much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the added security is a fairly large bonus in itself not to be brushed off lightly, but the other benefits you see as questionable, many others will agree with.
It would put a nice dent in the drug trade I would imagine, but that is not its intended goal.
It is to stop illegal immigrants from coming into America. What is the point of even being born a US citizen? The term means nothing today. Unless you want to be president (and who knows that could change soon) you can do anything you want in America as an illegal that and American citizen can. We are devaluing ourselves, our laws, and our nation.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best 3.22 billion we would ever spend. Cut back on some of the pork barrel projects that are absolutely worthless and we'll have more then enough money to go around.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmm...Irony.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is quite interesting:
<a href='http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"There are great misperceptions that immigrants are a drain on our economy, but many studies have confirmed that the opposite is true. Even undocumented workers - commonly referred to as 'illegal' contribute more than their fair share to our great country." (Alan Greenspan Federal Reserve Board chairman, congressional testimony, July 2001.)
...
Alan Greenspan informed Congress that <b>immigrants, including undocumented workers, in essence donate $27 billion to state and local economies. This is the difference between what they pay in taxes ($70 billion) and what they use in services ($43 billion).</b> In Illinois alone, he testified, "Illegal workers pay $547 million in taxes yearly, compared to $238 million in services used." This is a net "profit" for Illinois of $309 million. This phenomenon is the norm, not the exception, in states where undocumented workers pay taxes. Indeed, rather than take money from, undocumented workers donate money to the American economy and thus to Americans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is interesting; I wonder where all the money goes? I mean according to this we should be rolling in cash. If they "more then pay for themselves" then why have so many hospitals had to close down near the border, why don't they see the money? Greenspan is also a questionable source of information for you to be citing seeing as he is a big fan of Bush's Social Security reform, which I would assume you don't agree with.
That article is nice but it doesn’t really say where all this extra cash--illegal cash--is going. "The economy" is a pretty broad statement, where as I can tell you exactly where the illegals are sucking money and services from, I would expect you to tell me exactly where they are putting money and resources back in...apparently more so then they take, as you say.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as I don't like some of his policies, I still think he's a reputable source for raw information.
The cash is going to taxes, like the article said. I would assume that the hospitals close down because we have a private, not public, health institution, but hospitals are still required to take people who can't pay, if they have emergencies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only benefit that I can see of your proposal would be to prevent terrorists from coming into the US through the Mexican border. However, if you consider the thousands of miles of coastline and Canadian border that we'd have to protect (if you saw Fahrenheit 9/11, you'll have seen the story about the Oregonian state cop who had to oversee several hundred miles of coastline by himself) and the fact that terrorists have come into the US legally (the 9/11 terrorists), you'll see that the wall won't hinder them much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the added security is a fairly large bonus in itself not to be brushed off lightly, but the other benefits you see as questionable, many others will agree with.
It would put a nice dent in the drug trade I would imagine, but that is not its intended goal.
It is to stop illegal immigrants from coming into America. What is the point of even being born a US citizen? The term means nothing today. Unless you want to be president (and who knows that could change soon) you can do anything you want in America as an illegal that and American citizen can. We are devaluing ourselves, our laws, and our nation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would put a big dent in the drug trade, but I don't think it would put a big dent in terrorism, at all. Like I said, we've still got a huge border with Canada and two huge coastlines, that have to be guarded. As for your statements about the value of American citizenship and the devaluation of America, that's just crap. Mexican immigrants devalue American society just as much as your ancestors did (and mine did), when they first came over here. America is a country full of immigrants. If anything, Mexican immigrants <i>add</i> value to society.
You're coming dangerously close to racism here, reasa. American culture isn't necessarily better than Mexican culture and Americans don't deserve to live in a first world country any more than Mexicans do.
Heh were headed down the road of economic ruin as it is, so sure, why not just put the bullet through our national brain now.
Immigration quotas are different for every region, that hardly seems fair does it? It seems like a matter of respect to me!
Raise the quotas. A lot. Immigrants don't hurt the US, rather, they provide a mainstay of industriousness and fortitude in a country of ever increasing complacency and stagnation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
Apart from the laughable suggestion that every single person on a wall that size is going to be willing to refuse bribes, there's also the fact that you've got an awful lot of coastline round the rest of America. You honestly think that immigrants and terrorists can't catch a boat?
That's pretty true. Asian illegal immigrants are more than willing to pack themselves like sardines in a boat and nearly die on their way coming here. I can't really hate people who go that far...
But laws are laws and you don't go breaking them when you have an alternative.
Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would that help? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To help weed out the immigrants everyone seems to get rid of. They don't have an ID, they can't get a job. If someone forges one, theyve forged a federal document. That would limit the ammount of immigrants able to get a job. Therefore, less incentive to come to US (jobs not as easy to get).
It would also help against terrorism. I forget the whole ideal behind it. I'll ask about it later. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is an example of a situation where the solution is worse than the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note that we already have a national ID - SSN - which is legally required for employment. Does that stop undocumented immigrants from getting jobs?
Which is why we need a national ID. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would that help? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To help weed out the immigrants everyone seems to get rid of. They don't have an ID, they can't get a job. If someone forges one, theyve forged a federal document. That would limit the ammount of immigrants able to get a job. Therefore, less incentive to come to US (jobs not as easy to get).
It would also help against terrorism. I forget the whole ideal behind it. I'll ask about it later. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is an example of a situation where the solution is worse than the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note that we already have a national ID - SSN - which is legally required for employment. Does that stop undocumented immigrants from getting jobs? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps the employers are just as much of an issue. But tightening the vise on them would cause no end of pain on all parties.
I honestly see no reason to be angry at immigrants acquiring jobs and doing them for less pay and longer hours. If anything, we should demand that they be educated and equalize their pay, rather than yelling at them for not being educated. I've been saying this again and again, but they must be Naturalized. And this process of de-marginalizing via socialization must start with the first generation of immigrants. The next generation's behaviour is simply an outcome of the first's.
I'm not trying to pretend that it's an easy fix either. You can't honestly go and teach each and every immigrant the do's and do not's. The only solution is some sort of centralized approach, where immigrants can be trusted to come of their own will. I guess that sounds crazy but, plenty of immigrants come to special "pick-up areas" to go to their manual labor related day jobs, so they know their own needs. The government just needs to convince them that they "need" this.