My Rant Version 1.0 F

SquishyOne · March 2005

<div class="IPBDescription">1.05 coming to a town near you. Someday!</div> It's about the fact that every testing phase since 1.04 has been mishandled and unorganized. It's about the fact that the devs don't seem to understand that the clanners really do know things they don't about ns balance. It's about the clanners who don't remember that they were pubbers once and the Pubbers who don't know that clanners are still pubbers.

Maybe it has changed since I was booted from the pt program but from what i've heard it hasn't one bit. Few games with not enough people to test it appropriately in them when you do get one scheduled. The constie program I heard was also disorganized few and far between and mostly combat.

The devs keep saying adapt adapt..... News flash the game mechanics havn't changed in any significant way. Nothing new was added. Things were strengthened and weakened. The players who play 2+ hours a day of b5 adapted within the first friggin night. It's b5 with skulks who can run around semi invisible and where your bullets dont reg. Took a long time to figure out eh? Oversimplified yes? But it takes no new thinking. NONE.

The hitboxs are broken. Maybe it isn't the hitboxs themselves but some lag/server issues but when you things you shoot don't die most players don't care exactly what is wrong they just want it fixed. No clanner is bitching about the distance of the shotgun they just want the bullets the fire pointblank to actually register.

I'm tired of seeing clanners pick on people because they are either better at ns or see the person say something dumb. I would much rather see them try to educate them.

I am just as tired of seeing pubbers flame clanner after clanner when they point out balance problems.

And I am really tired of having people go omg look its a clanner don't listen to him he's just a whiner who thinks he knows everything.

Just because you have some preconceived pos notion that they're **** doesn't mean that some guy who has put in hundreds of more hours than you and played at a much higher level is wrong.

The devs are just as friggin arrogant in their own way insisting that they know thing we dont. Are you kidding me? I am more than willing to admit I'm wrong about something but when I make an arguement on this board all I see is flames and devs going, How could you know that? OR giving some really sketchy crap answer. IF I AM WRONG WHY DONT YOU TELL ME WHY? The devs don't even play this game anymore and yet they insist on how right they are. An hour every 3 days is less than most pubbers.

I'm tired of little <span style='color:red'>****</span> like shockwave defending himself by hiding behind other players who were great at one time and are now pts who don't even play ns. Yes wltrs was good yes andrew if he is the one from exi was great and so are some of the other pts but that doesn't flipping make it so you know ****. If they have a point and are still active they can tell me themselves. Ya shock you go ahead and snicker. Thats good for the community and proves right there you're a stand up guy huh? And now we know how it feels? When did "we" ever have it the other way around? Ham was the only clan Flayra ever really listened to and they died out a long time ago. I don't want to name the two but I asked em if they agreed with you shock. Two people you named. One said it would help them decide if they had ever played 3.0 final. The other said no. GG?

I'm tired of seeing Zek saying how "arrogant" it is of people who play far more than everyone else to think they might know more?

Is it not arrogant to assume they must be wrong?

These little divisions are pathetic. Anyway thats my rant. Have a nice day.

<span style='color:red'>Do not evade the swear filter, it is there for a reason. -Talesin</span>

FantY · March 2005

I agree because Squishy told me to.

Steel_Monkey · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FantY @ Mar 13 2005, 11:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I agree because Squishy told me to.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Wooow.

On topic, it would be nice if clanners and pubbers could somehow solve their differences.

DragonMech · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The constie program I heard was also disorganized few and far between and mostly combat. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Actually, getting people to play combat was like getting teeth pulled. 85%+ of all the games I played were ns maps.

mr_drug_lord · March 2005

the anti clanners have a compromised mentality

FantY · March 2005

Playing on a NS classic only server doesn't count. Most servers I play on don't mix NS maps and CO maps in their rotations so...

Pubbers and clanners can't solve their differences because it keeps them too far apart. How many pubbers go on IRC, really. How many pubbers go on clan channels and try to straighten out these differences?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> the anti clanners have a compromised mentality</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I guess I agree, seeing how these are the same people who thinks scripting gives clanners a large advantage and consider it cheating.

theclam · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The hitboxs are broken. Maybe it isn't the hitboxs themselves but some lag/server issues but when you things you shoot don't die most players don't care exactly what is wrong they just want it fixed. No clanner is bitching about the distance of the shotgun they just want the bullets the fire pointblank to actually register.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I keep on hearing this, but I have never seen any proof. I know in CS:S and HL2, people made videos proving this, but no one has ever done this for NS. Every hitbox issue that I've seen has been an artifact of lag and I won't believe that there are hitbox issues until someone proves it.

Aren't there already a lot of clanners and ex-clanners on the PT team? If not, then there should be. Some of the omega and delta clans could be given PT status, maybe as a tournament reward, or something.

GoDlol · March 2005

Well put squishy, though I dont agree with all of what you said, I agree with the hitbox issues, we( competitive players) play this game more then anyone, I personally have noticed huge issues and all I ask is for them to be looked into, instead of people saying "i have no problem, because i couldnt aim in the first place"

I am going to be recording demos, and ill make a small movie and prove this to you clam, will have net_Graph 3 to show you that there is no lag, give me a couple of days.

SmoodCroozn · March 2005

I find it harder to kill skulks then I normally do, because sometimes I have to shoot them in 3 seconds with an HMG just to kill them. Sometimes I shoot a skulk pointblank with my shotgun, and it seems they are unscathed. It could be a latency problem which does happen in all Final servers, but maybe there's more to it than that.

FantY · March 2005

Are you suggesting a conspiracy?

Zek · March 2005

I don't have anything against clanners. What I'm tired of is the ones who expect to receive respect without ever giving it, and who believe they know <i>so much</i> more that no one else is even worthy of commenting on balance. There is a reason vets were removed from the playtesting process, and it's not because they didn't know what they were talking about. I don't doubt that most competetive players are better than I am, and can probably analyze balance more accurately given an appropriate amount of time to play a build. I don't care how good they are(and by "they" I'm referring to the ones I described earlier, I know the whole community isn't like that) , if they want to be respected by the devs and the community as a whole then they need to drop the attitude, no matter how opressed or ignored they think they are. If all clanners were capable of making constructive criticism without the acidic remarks or thinly veiled insults then I'm sure they'd be more influential in NS' development right now. I'm sure they find it frustrating that their skill doesn't automatically elevate them to a position of esteem in the community, but until they drop the arrogance and elitism the "discrimination" isn't going to go away.

I don't think pubbers and clanners will ever agree; the mentality is just far too different. I think the only real source of friction is the attitude they hold towards eachother. There will always be pubbers who won't forgive skilled players for doing so well, just as there will always be clanners who alienate half the playerbase with their elitist attitude. I don't see that changing any time soon.

And I haven't noticed any new hitbox problems at all. Lag happens, but it almost never is a serious problem for me and it certainly isn't noticably worse than B5. Maybe there's a bug in B6 and maybe there isn't, but I suspect that it's really been blown out of proportion; I think people read about this whole hitbox epidemic and try to convince themselves that it's the only reason they died...

lagger · March 2005

Proabably a little exaggerated for my taste, but the rant has some validity. As far as the hit reg goes, I havnt noticed much of a difference, but then again I wasnt really looking for it. Usually when I die I just think 'sigh you fuxed up'. It would be nice if someone tested the mechanics of this like some people did a few months ago for a different hl hitbox bug. (Poke: Pt's) - I'm pretty sure somewhere on this board there was a test done by some clanners about hitbox issues that was very in depth and conclusive. Something of that magnitude should proabably be done by anyone who has the ability.

Talesin · March 2005

Squishy, perhaps if this was a paid and funded business, there would be more organization to the playtesting. Unfortunately, the Devs are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts; giving up their time, knowledge, and labor to give YOU something for free, that quite a few people seem to enjoy.

As it stands, given that you are not a playtester, exactly how would you know how current PTing is handled? We have a wide array of skill levels involved, and spend quite a bit of time hunting down the worst bugs and imbalances.

At the moment, it is up to the players to adapt. In older versions, people had tricks, knowing exactly where to aim. Perhaps in the current version, those 'tricks' are broken, and so many are screaming that the hitboxes are broken... when they're actually working better than they had before. Same with Sensories, which apparently are another sticking point with many. In 2.0x, Marine teamwork was at an all-time low. It's a shock, but Marines are supposed to WORK AS A TEAM. It'll take time to drill that into peoples' heads, pubber and clanner alike.

It's been said before, and it'll be said again (though in different words). Nubs whine. Players adapt.

xtcmen · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Mar 13 2005, 11:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I find it harder to kill skulks then I normally do, because sometimes I have to shoot them in 3 seconds with an HMG just to kill them. Sometimes I shoot a skulk pointblank with my shotgun, and it seems they are unscathed. It could be a latency problem which does happen in all Final servers, but maybe there's more to it than that.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I agree. When I played b5 the other day it was so much easier to kill an alien.

SmoodCroozn · March 2005

Clanners are people, both pubbers and clanners need to realize that. In my other thread, I will say this for a fact, that I had people that said statements along the lines of "I disregarded this statement the moment I saw this", or "The OP needs to learn how to play better". The fact is that most of these statements did in fact come from skilled players (which I assume because they have a irc channel in their sig or I have played with them before). I'm not saying all clanners behave in this way, it's just from my experience with the clanners that were responding in my thread, that's how I viewed them. I know they play better and are more knowledgable about game mechanics, but I wish that they would be more clear instead of some of their vague and disheartening responses.

*Note: by they I mean the clanners that were responding in my thread, NOT ALL CLANNERS, and the thread I am talking about is the Silence thread*

tjosan · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Mar 13 2005, 11:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In 2.0x, Marine teamwork was at an all-time low. It's a shock, but Marines are supposed to WORK AS A TEAM. It'll take time to drill that into peoples' heads, pubber and clanner alike.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You actually believe top clans dont know about working as a team? If the absolute top teams cant handle playing marine in this version, how can you expect anyone to? Get a grip please.

SquishyOne · March 2005

I think a lot fit stems from pubbers feel like being called that equals being called a nub. Which I suppose some people do use it as an insult. Whenever I type like this I wish I didn't have to use these tearms :\ to Zek.

Lagger the old problem where people got bugged was found and documented by non pts. I doubt the same people will do it again considering half those who helped out have quit and the others are far less interested.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Squishy, perhaps if this was a paid and funded business, there would be more organization to the playtesting. Unfortunately, the Devs are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts; giving up their time, knowledge, and labor to give YOU something for free, that quite a few people seem to enjoy.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

True. But all you say here is that I'm right but its because the devs dont get paid. I know long ago many competent people who would've been more than happy to do it for free. Most of them are gone now. Anyway the first thing you need to do if you want the game actually balanced is to have more people the pts don't have a chance to do it alone. The consties? Zero organization.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As it stands, given that you are not a playtester, exactly how would you know how current PTing is handled? We have a wide array of skill levels involved, and spend quite a bit of time hunting down the worst bugs and imbalances.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Talking to people who are? Hell some of the posts on this forum are by them about them being ignored/poorly used. That is the consties/pts. Also I know all of the clanners who were given pt the american ones at least and quite a few consties. And I guess it was something like 3 months ago when I was booted for inactivity from the pt program. Showing up to a playtest twice a week where I only had 9 people to play with and where it didn't seem much was being accomplished wasn't something I wished to do.

There is no way with the current system for the devs to have any ideas whatsoever how a change will effect clan play and yet they don't do anything about it. I can only assume they don't care. The testing for pubbing sadly has been ineffective as well.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
At the moment, it is up to the players to adapt. In older versions, people had tricks, knowing exactly where to aim. Perhaps in the current version, those 'tricks' are broken, and so many are screaming that the hitboxes are broken... when they're actually working better than they had before. Same with Sensories, which apparently are another sticking point with many. In 2.0x, Marine teamwork was at an all-time low. It's a shock, but Marines are supposed to WORK AS A TEAM. It'll take time to drill that into peoples' heads, pubber and clanner alike.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

All time low? 1.0x ring a bell? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> Lone hmger ftw. Having to know exactly where to aim? I would hope I could aim anywhere on the alien lifeforms body :\ I thought the dev stance was that they weren't changed? How could they be broken?

Sensories a sticking point? We give reasons we dislike it you just keep saying adapt. You don't argue the points whatsoever. The worst Adapt is supposed to convince me?

Clanners already work as much as a team as they can. This "teamwork" thing doesn't even make sense.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>It's been said before, and it'll be said again (though in different words). Nubs whine. Players adapt.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

And I'll say this again too. Plenty of people have adapted now and find the game less balanced with something wrong with hit regs and with a few less fun little skills.

I could explain to you why I think that is so. Could you actually reason why it's not?

Swift · March 2005

I guess everyone wants their two cents in. Here is mine...

Hitbox issues... I have not personally experienced them at all, but with so many people complaining, one must think what could make this so. Maybe the marines, now shooting aliens with free carapace are used to killing skulks after X amout of bullets, but are now supprised to see the skulk continue running at him and bite his fade off. Maybe it's the domino effect, one person uses it as an excuse, and everone else uses it from there. If there is a problem, my best guess is not in the hitboxes, but in the way the hitbox trails the model a little do to latency. The confirmed lagginess of 3.0 might be the felon, maybe their server patch is not good enough to fix the problem. Maybe so. I honestly don't know.

Pubbers and Clanners.... Wow... I think what really separate pubbers and clanners is clanners in general have a burning, sickly nausiating urge to win, no matter the circumstances. I have that, I know the feeling... And pubbers, again in general, and I might be sterotypical, just want to play the game. I have been in major heat for some of my past flame fests when I was a pubber fighting with a clanner, and even as a clanner fighting with a pubber a little while on. It was useless. I learned quickly when you have nothing good to say, don't say it, no matter how hard it is (and Jesus knows how very very hard it is.)

Squishy, about your comment from consties (me being one) I would fully agree that we are not organized, but then again we have no reason to. we donated, and like it has been said before, that only proves we are NSPlayers with money. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am a little irked at how the devs treat their game, I am not saying they hate it or don't care about it, and I'm not saying to do. I just get the feeling they are making the game for a certain audience, and I can't seem to find that audience.

Balace? this morning, I went marines 7 separate times and lost 7 times. On the 8th time I f4'd and cried myself to sleep. I think there is a balance issue, but I really have no stinking idea what it is. I have been getting owned at a higher rate then I could ever remember, and I am honestly thinking about quitting NS for a few days so I don't have a seisure. But whatever.....

About the whole adapt thing.... I think that is very unfair. We are the community. As a community if we complain, you can't just be like "oh, we know what's best for you." You have to listen more, and I have a feeling my posts don't mean anything much any more... I guess that might just be a problem with big communities though... whatever.

Until later...

(Oh, and I fixed my sig, talesin, and I checked every stat of it in PS:CS. I dare you to find fault in it now <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> )

SmoodCroozn · March 2005

The only thing I see that made the game ramboed is medpacks and ammopacks. I'm NOT suggesting we remove them from the game, I'm just implying that that's what takes away from teamwork. It makes marines primarily a com to player relationship, while player to player is less important.

If you look at the aliens, players who need healing go to a gorge, lerks umbra, and skulks parasite, I see a lot teamwork in that, which is why marines is more suited for that lone player that is skilled. Alien roles can't do everything by themselves, while a marine is uniform, regardless.

And for the record, if NS was a retail game, the pubbers would be the ones paying the bills, as Savant once said.

Church · March 2005

Bull crap.

Fades can do it all (almost), and aliens usually just bhop/blink back to the hive for free healing without assistance fromt he gorges.

Trust me, aliens are the ones that can get away with a tad less teamwork in final. With a godly fade, the marine team can be totally massacred even if the rest of the team is only so-so, as long as chambers are dropped. Individual skill + Fade = death to marines.

Marines, meanwhile, now need to stay in groups to survive even skulks (not to mention constant scanning). Marines definitely need more teamwork than aliens this build.

Talesin · March 2005

The short version is that every time a major release has happened, the community has whinged and complained about balance for a few weeks until they adapted to the new playstyle and feel.

Honestly, not as an insult, clanners are not that quick to adapt. They find a strat that works, and practice it. Almost to the exclusion of all else, honing it until their 'competative' edge will strike through another team. That's possibly the driving concept behind competative play. Finding the quirks and using them to your advantage. Adaptation means generalization, and reverting from one specialized tactic to an entirely different mindset takes time and frustration (for some).

Now then. For a few weeks at least, I am going to regard these balance/complaint threads as simply being exactly what's happened every prior release. And deal with them in the same way.

<span style='color:red'>*LOCKED.*</span>

My Rant Version 1.0 F

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