2.01 thanks to hambone was the most balanced this game has ever been.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From what I have heard of the testing form the consties was.......... nothing. The servers were barley in use, it was extremely hard to find a decent game, I rarley saw any games actually played on an ns_map<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats what I get from both pts and consties.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->'Clan community complains PT's & CM's are all too nub to play NS.' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have our opinions on balance and back them up with reasons and yet all it is seen as is whining.
I can't really say we anymore since I don't particularly like 3.0 and have toned down my play. But it seems to me that people who play more than your avg player, play at a higher level of skill and teamwork and care more about the game than most people know more about whats wrong with the game than most?
Personally, I agree that the large changes in B6 shouldn't have been pushed out the door as 3.0 Final without any public testing. At the same time, I think it is remarkably arrogant for people to play a build for a week, pick out what they feel are glaring balance issues and then proceed to belittle the playtesters for not noticing them. Naturally no group as small as the PTs can perfectly balance a game for public release on their own, but give them a little credit. Has it even occurred to you guys that with the amount of time they'd been testing Beta 6 privately, plus the extended constie beta, that they have a better perspective on the issue than you do? Don't you see how ridiculous it is to automatically assume PT incompetence when your one-week analysis does not match up with their multiple-month one?
I played NS nonstop for two weeks on a server, where I used knife only.
My conclusion is that the knife is unbalanced, it cant even kill vanilla skulks. You have to shoot them!
I have played NS for over a year, I've never been involved in its creation, nor can I climb through a small door in my office in order to get inside Flayra's head.
Evidently I know better than anyone who's been involved in the creation, design, and concept of the game, and I know better than its own creator. He may think the knife is a desperation weapon, but he's wrong. It should be just as powerful as the LMG, and that will balance both weapons.
Also, the shotgun needs to be a pellet sniper cannon as it used to be. It is annoying to die to some nub who got cloaking because I cannot see him without turning up my gamma to unreasonable levels. I should not die to nubs, I have been playing NS one year, please boost knife damage kthx and remove cloaking or make it easier to see with my gamma maxed out. Otherwise the community will DIE!!! OGMOLOLWTHBBQ!!!111oneoneeleven.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-SquishyOne+Mar 14 2005, 12:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SquishyOne @ Mar 14 2005, 12:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->'Clan community complains PT's & CM's are all too nub to play NS.' <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We have our opinions on balance and back them up with reasons and yet all it is seen as is whining. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> At least know you'll all know what it felt like. *snicker*
But back on a serious note, previous 'experience' with the 'high skilled' community hasn't exactly finished on a sweet note, has it? Going from past references, etc. HAMBONE has apparently elevated himself to somehow near divine status, which I've no doubt he'll find amusing should he ever read this, but bizarrely we're not <b>that</b> bad at the game, you know.
Try eBnar, tankefugl, amarc, Anderval, Buggy, Kalessin, Keyser, Tink, UGLAndrew, wltrs. Hell, I'd like to place myself (feel free to back me up, any of the communities I play often in) at a decent level.
Maybe we are right, and it'll just take time for you all to get used to it. Maybe we are all nub, and it's horribly unbalanced. Maybe we're <b>not</b> nub, but we're only human and we've screwed up <i>anyway</i>, but thankfully NS doesn't have (no matter how much the impression may be given, if only to keep the peace) to be democratic. No-one is making you play the game. If we mess up, the Developer group will just drop PT's from the roster, and pick new ones.
But until some time has passed and the game has settled (1.04 JPHMG rush anyone? That took a few months to become well known.) There isn't anyones opinion on balance that is yet worth squat. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Mar 13 2005, 07:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Mar 13 2005, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Otherwise the community will DIE!!! OGMOLOLWTHBBQ!!!111oneoneeleven. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The competitive community is already taking a hit with this new version, when you can pull the most idiotic strats as an alien and still win due to the massive early game buff that they have is pretty stupid.
Saying that its only been out for a week just proves our point that it has been out for a week and we have caught what the testers have not.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-GoDlol+Mar 14 2005, 01:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoDlol @ Mar 14 2005, 01:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The competitive community is already taking a hit with this new version, when you can pull the most idiotic strats as an alien and still win due to the massive early game buff that they have is pretty stupid.
Saying that its only been out for a week just proves our point that it has been out for a week and we have caught what the testers have not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If your vision of the competitive community only encloses those who have that little of an attention span that a week is too long, speaking personally as a player rather than as a PT, I can't honestly say I'll miss that 'community', nor would I have ever trusted them to test the game with any degree of competance. Sorry.
<!--QuoteBegin-GoDlol+Mar 13 2005, 07:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GoDlol @ Mar 13 2005, 07:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Saying that its only been out for a week just proves our point that it has been out for a week and we have caught what the testers have not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You think you have, but all you're doing is making assumptions. How do you know the testers didn't think the exact same thing about the new cloaking at first(I know for a fact that they did), but gradually became used to it and decided with the benefit of experience that it was balanced? I'm saying it's arrogant for you to be so confident that your short-term conclusion is obviously the correct one.
Zek, that's the great thing about the competitive community: It took less than a week and we already know it's ****. How long did the constis test and what did they produce?
Shockwave, 3/4 of the people you just listed don't even play the game anymore except for PTs. Are we supposed to trust them? Good call, batman. And an attention span of a week? Yeah, not like half these folk haven't played every day for the past 6 months++. Jeez.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Mar 13 2005, 08:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Mar 13 2005, 08:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Zek, that's the great thing about the competitive community: It took less than a week and we already know it's ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This forum really does need a rolleyes smiley.
Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
edited March 2005
I'd like for someone to respond to the following:
Find me a non-beta, public release build of NS in our history for which a "most popular or common" strategy was found within the first two weeks of its release, and said strategy stayed common all the way through to the days before the <i>next</i> non-beta, public version's release. Either my memory is failing me, I am blind, or it has always taken at least two weeks for people to start settling in with a set of new balance things to discuss.
[edit done to rephrase question more clearly]
[2nd edit]<s>I might as well post my followup question already. If you can find an answer that satisfies the condition in my 1st question, try to read around a bit and answer this one: who tested the version, how, for how long, and do you think it would work again, and why?</s> Scratch that followup question. Personally I think a well balanced version of NS would mean there <i>is</i> no *one strategy.* I'll stick with the point behind my first question: it takes people time to get used to new versions.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
Consti was ignored:
Reasons?
I brought up evidence proving that it was unbalanced in favor of aliens. It got shot down. I even had a list of changes possible to improve both the alien and marine balance.
Seriously, it wasn't the consti's fault. I have to admit...being like the person with the 10th most playtime out of everyone...that the scene was kind of empty, but when we did play it was good.
We did give feedback. It isn't the constis fault, blame the DEVS!!!
So, I guess the answer to the original question is:
The Play Testers are experienced people, varying from the average to the experted in skill. I think it's still too early to say definitively that 3.0 favors the aliens, but the changes certainly did a lot to make the aliens easier to play (Free upgrades.. 'nightvision' flashlight, Motion Tracking and MT Defense from carefully-deployed SCs). I still think that Silence, by itself, is too weak once Marines get MT, but that's not the point of this thread..
The balancing concerns will be mopped-up as long as the Marines communicate with their Commander more. SCs too powerful? Request a Scanner sweep, check your minimap and move in. Or, if you're sieging, have the comm drop you an Obs. I've heard some people here, not in this thread, say that Communication and Teamwork matters more for the marines as it did in earlier versions of the game. Scanner Sweeps, for example, aren't just for Siege Turrets anymore.
Let's see now, a VERY quick analysis of 3.0 final.
The changes made to team alien have opened up more options for them, but no similar changes have been made for team marine.
I just cant see how a week of playing isnt enough... this is basically b5 but with one team boosted in strenght. There are no new game mechanics that will be figured out in time, there is only NS as it was in b5 but with one team made stronger.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
That's because the 'hitbox problem' is not the topic of this thread. And in fact, could be completely psychosomatic for all the testing that's been done. Personally I've had no problems with killing vanilla Skulks in the same eight to ten bullets.
And the topic of this thread is 'what kind of playtesters does NS have?'... the answer being 'a wide range'. And now, to put an end to the whingeing until people can adapt to the new version (at least in this thread)...
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From what I have heard of the testing form the consties was.......... nothing. The servers were barley in use, it was extremely hard to find a decent game, I rarley saw any games actually played on an ns_map<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats what I get from both pts and consties.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->'Clan community complains PT's & CM's are all too nub to play NS.'
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have our opinions on balance and back them up with reasons and yet all it is seen as is whining.
I can't really say we anymore since I don't particularly like 3.0 and have toned down my play. But it seems to me that people who play more than your avg player, play at a higher level of skill and teamwork and care more about the game than most people know more about whats wrong with the game than most?
My conclusion is that the knife is unbalanced, it cant even kill vanilla skulks. You have to shoot them!
I have played NS for over a year, I've never been involved in its creation, nor can I climb through a small door in my office in order to get inside Flayra's head.
Evidently I know better than anyone who's been involved in the creation, design, and concept of the game, and I know better than its own creator. He may think the knife is a desperation weapon, but he's wrong. It should be just as powerful as the LMG, and that will balance both weapons.
Also, the shotgun needs to be a pellet sniper cannon as it used to be. It is annoying to die to some nub who got cloaking because I cannot see him without turning up my gamma to unreasonable levels. I should not die to nubs, I have been playing NS one year, please boost knife damage kthx and remove cloaking or make it easier to see with my gamma maxed out. Otherwise the community will DIE!!! OGMOLOLWTHBBQ!!!111oneoneeleven.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have our opinions on balance and back them up with reasons and yet all it is seen as is whining. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least know you'll all know what it felt like. *snicker*
But back on a serious note, previous 'experience' with the 'high skilled' community hasn't exactly finished on a sweet note, has it? Going from past references, etc. HAMBONE has apparently elevated himself to somehow near divine status, which I've no doubt he'll find amusing should he ever read this, but bizarrely we're not <b>that</b> bad at the game, you know.
Try eBnar, tankefugl, amarc, Anderval, Buggy, Kalessin, Keyser, Tink, UGLAndrew, wltrs. Hell, I'd like to place myself (feel free to back me up, any of the communities I play often in) at a decent level.
Maybe we are right, and it'll just take time for you all to get used to it. Maybe we are all nub, and it's horribly unbalanced. Maybe we're <b>not</b> nub, but we're only human and we've screwed up <i>anyway</i>, but thankfully NS doesn't have (no matter how much the impression may be given, if only to keep the peace) to be democratic. No-one is making you play the game. If we mess up, the Developer group will just drop PT's from the roster, and pick new ones.
But until some time has passed and the game has settled (1.04 JPHMG rush anyone? That took a few months to become well known.) There isn't anyones opinion on balance that is yet worth squat. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Shockwave
The competitive community is already taking a hit with this new version, when you can pull the most idiotic strats as an alien and still win due to the massive early game buff that they have is pretty stupid.
Saying that its only been out for a week just proves our point that it has been out for a week and we have caught what the testers have not.
Saying that its only been out for a week just proves our point that it has been out for a week and we have caught what the testers have not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your vision of the competitive community only encloses those who have that little of an attention span that a week is too long, speaking personally as a player rather than as a PT, I can't honestly say I'll miss that 'community', nor would I have ever trusted them to test the game with any degree of competance. Sorry.
- Shockwave
You think you have, but all you're doing is making assumptions. How do you know the testers didn't think the exact same thing about the new cloaking at first(I know for a fact that they did), but gradually became used to it and decided with the benefit of experience that it was balanced? I'm saying it's arrogant for you to be so confident that your short-term conclusion is obviously the correct one.
Shockwave, 3/4 of the people you just listed don't even play the game anymore except for PTs. Are we supposed to trust them? Good call, batman. And an attention span of a week? Yeah, not like half these folk haven't played every day for the past 6 months++. Jeez.
This forum really does need a rolleyes smiley.
Find me a non-beta, public release build of NS in our history for which a "most popular or common" strategy was found within the first two weeks of its release, and said strategy stayed common all the way through to the days before the <i>next</i> non-beta, public version's release. Either my memory is failing me, I am blind, or it has always taken at least two weeks for people to start settling in with a set of new balance things to discuss.
[edit done to rephrase question more clearly]
[2nd edit]<s>I might as well post my followup question already. If you can find an answer that satisfies the condition in my 1st question, try to read around a bit and answer this one: who tested the version, how, for how long, and do you think it would work again, and why?</s>
Scratch that followup question. Personally I think a well balanced version of NS would mean there <i>is</i> no *one strategy.* I'll stick with the point behind my first question: it takes people time to get used to new versions.
Reasons?
I brought up evidence proving that it was unbalanced in favor of aliens. It got shot down. I even had a list of changes possible to improve both the alien and marine balance.
Seriously, it wasn't the consti's fault. I have to admit...being like the person with the 10th most playtime out of everyone...that the scene was kind of empty, but when we did play it was good.
We did give feedback. It isn't the constis fault, blame the DEVS!!!
The Play Testers are experienced people, varying from the average to the experted in skill.
I think it's still too early to say definitively that 3.0 favors the aliens, but the changes certainly did a lot to make the aliens easier to play (Free upgrades.. 'nightvision' flashlight, Motion Tracking and MT Defense from carefully-deployed SCs).
I still think that Silence, by itself, is too weak once Marines get MT, but that's not the point of this thread..
The balancing concerns will be mopped-up as long as the Marines communicate with their Commander more. SCs too powerful? Request a Scanner sweep, check your minimap and move in. Or, if you're sieging, have the comm drop you an Obs. I've heard some people here, not in this thread, say that Communication and Teamwork matters more for the marines as it did in earlier versions of the game. Scanner Sweeps, for example, aren't just for Siege Turrets anymore.
The changes made to team alien have opened up more options for them, but no similar changes have been made for team marine.
I just cant see how a week of playing isnt enough... this is basically b5 but with one team boosted in strenght. There are no new game mechanics that will be figured out in time, there is only NS as it was in b5 but with one team made stronger.
And the topic of this thread is 'what kind of playtesters does NS have?'... the answer being 'a wide range'. And now, to put an end to the whingeing until people can adapt to the new version (at least in this thread)...
<span style='color:red'>*LOCKED.*</span>