Patch Changes Bad
JdeFalconr
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2792Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2792Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The NS team shouldn't give in to us.</div> I will state right away that I haven't played NS with the new server patch yet, so I haven't experienced it. However, after looking at the changes, recounting my own play experience, and spending time reading these forums, it looks like the NS team has simply given in to all the players' demands!!! The NS team are the ones in control of the game for a reason, otherwise someone else would have produced this mod! Almost every change in this patch is something either suggested by forum posters or whined and complained about. I am of the opinion that these complaints and whinings were NOT all correct. Some things needed to happen, like increasing the ROF on alien towers. But toning down so many aspects of the Marines was unnecessary!! Instead of forcing players to utilize teamwork and their respective species (aliens or marines) specialized play styles, it looks as though the NS team has instead given in to popular criticism and given people what they want instead of being true to their original intent! I certainly hope this isn't the case, but it looks to be that way.
What a sad state of affairs if the development and evolution of NS becomes ruled by its players, not the original few who had the concept and vision to create the mod. What would have happened if the same was done with Counterstrike? Gooseman had an original vision and he didn't let that get marred when people whined about things that they didn't think were right with CS. (take for example the huge debate over the jumping changes in 1.4) Now there's a difference between players criticizing and being correct and players criticizing and being wrong, but my opinion is that <b>the majority of criticism regarding balance issues (the main thing that this patch seems to address) is nonsense generated by people who don't understand the need to adapt their playing styles to fit those of the aliens,</b> and these false criticisms shouldn't be given in to in light of the original vision that was NS.
What a sad state of affairs if the development and evolution of NS becomes ruled by its players, not the original few who had the concept and vision to create the mod. What would have happened if the same was done with Counterstrike? Gooseman had an original vision and he didn't let that get marred when people whined about things that they didn't think were right with CS. (take for example the huge debate over the jumping changes in 1.4) Now there's a difference between players criticizing and being correct and players criticizing and being wrong, but my opinion is that <b>the majority of criticism regarding balance issues (the main thing that this patch seems to address) is nonsense generated by people who don't understand the need to adapt their playing styles to fit those of the aliens,</b> and these false criticisms shouldn't be given in to in light of the original vision that was NS.
Comments
Those numbers you see are just numbers, you'll find that numbers don't mean much, just the feel of the game. Right now, it feels right.
Over the course of the next few weeks I suspect many marine players will think the marines have been severely toned down. And to a small extent I think they were, but now marines must rely on each other and the commander, instead of turret farms to do the work.
So each time I see a post saying that marines were screwed, I get the real picture in my mind of a kid saying "OMFG! You mean we have to use teamwork now?!"
Over 90% of the time, there's at least 3 Marine scouting parties early to mid game, and if the aliens aren't dominating by the late game, then people usually coordinate enough to kill the alien bases one by one. Do you really see Marines not working together?
Yes, they did everything the players asked for.
In 5-10% adjustments.
Reduce damage on the GL from 200 to 180? That's a MINISCULE change, overall.
Bumping the OffChamber health from 1100 to 1200? That's tiny.
Lowering Siege Cannon damage from 350 to 330? That's one extra shot or so against things, but almost exactly the same overall damage, and still as lethal to things AROUND those structures.
The only 'large' changes were lowered grenade-clip size, and boosted firing rate on the acid rockets. :-)
They're being smart, IMHO. They're finding all the complaints EVERYONE has, that are reasonable, and adjusting ALL of them a LITTLE bit. Not huge, sweeping changes to a few places, but polishing the entire whole cloth of the project in the rough spots, so the game at it's core stays even more the same, that I can see.
And as far as I can see, the 'new' complaints will let them zero in on which of those changes were over-compensation, and they're keep micro-adjusting them. They're avoiding ANY spikes in the mesh of the game itself at this point, and just using a little Bondo and a Dremel to fine-tune the contours. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And yes, I tend to play Devil's Advocate, but that's because my honest opinions can run both ways on an issue. I may disagree with specific points on the changes, but I agree with the approach compared to other mods that do small numbers of large changes. This is a large number of small changes, so it's less of an overall change, more subtle, more flowing. Less a completely new game. Compare FireArms 2.4 to 2.5 to 2.6 to 2.65... each play COMPLETELY differently, due to the massive changes between versions, they kept the same base rules, sure, but the game itself changed wildly.
Then there's the fact 70% of the things in the patch are little stuff like dropping HMG damage by 10%, or siege damage by 12%.... sure, it technically has an effect on gameplay, but I really don't think anybody's going to notice it. It almost seems as if a lot of things were put in just to make it seem like they're adjusting balance, when really it's just pacifying the angry mobs of morons yelling "Aliens Suck".
Lag issues, resource fixing, team balancing, heal/ammo evaporation: good stuff. The rest of it is just useless noise.
BTW: Can anyone tell me if the Silence upgrade affects the new noise made by Regeneration?
Adrian/RiftWolf
How can you argue that the fades are not overpowered, and then go on to say how much they own everyone? It took the aliens only 15 minutes to get 2 fades, which are now almost comparible to an onos as far as their acid rocket goes. Making them more expensive would prevent them from getting these early on, which is what I think is the main inbalance. But, like I said, I've only played one game, so I'll test it a bit more.
I haven't played it, so I wont know if anything is bad about it experiencewise. But I like what I see.
- Acid rocket rate of fire increased from .66 to 1.0 (shots per second)
- Increased fade armor from to 90/125 to 125/150
- Increased acid rocket damage from 50 to 60
- Increased base speed of fade from 210 to 240
I think it went from underpowered, to overpowered. I Wouldn't have a problem with them being so strong if they would cost more...
During the playtests, we had the equation '1 Fade = 4 LMG-marines', so the lvl4 is really just back where it was supposed to be in the first place.
Ok, I'm done restating my point over and over <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
ok so i stopped reading hafway through the post and decided to be an **obscenity**. anyway everytime this happens to a mod it makes me think of the simpsons halloween episode where the aliens kidnap clinton and dole.
abortions for everyone! boooo!
abortions for noone! booo!
ok... abortions for some, no abortions for others! yay!
You can't make a class that's supposed to be the backbone of your swarm too costly.
You can't make a class that's supposed to be the backbone of your swarm too costly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh i c. However that equation was more like 15 lmgs = 1 fade. They probably just had a good vantage point. I'll play more...
Oh, and (A//black.rat//E), that actually makes alot of sense. I doubt that they would do this, but it does seem kind of odd how they "accidentally" gave the marines 10x the resources at the last second <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> If this is what they really did...what a great idea! Force the players to explore both sides so that they can get the full flavor! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now the marines think theyre invincible and are leaving their bases without commander permission and theyre dying easily.
Remember guys, and LM isnt supposed to take out a fade by himself. Thats right, teamwork.
Also ive noticed the commanders aint so strict anymore. They let people jsut wonder around.
What they should do is make sure each member has an order, defending the base, grouping at point X , rainding point C, etc.
I was trying to make the commander today to call his units to ocme to abse so we can organize an attack on the hive, but he didnt really do a good job of it and soon the onos and fades came in and kapoof.
Besides, what's wrong with make the alien side a little easier to play with until the alien community in general has a chance to master the incredibly unique team? Once alien players grow in skill (which WILL take time, don't forget the many marine players can fall back on several years of learning how to play as humans in a FPS or a commander in a RTS), we can slowly reverse the changes to keep it in balance. The very best mods evolve with it's community, it doesn't ignore it.
By the way, I worked out that going from 0.66 shots per second to 1 shot per second means that you will go from 3 shots in 5 seconds to 5 shots in 5 seconds. Going from 50 damage to 60 damage means that in that same 5 seconds we have gone from dealing 150 damage to 300 damage! Yes that's right, the changes add up to a doubling in the acid rocket's damage!
Also, it went from needing 11 HMG hits to kill a fade to 16. Read up on this and more in the Kharaa strategy forum in a post called "The New Server-Side Patch"
Kind of hard to get away from your teammates when you're trapped with them. Just had to point that out...
My biggest concern through this entire game was, most Marines, are DUMB. I found why they send them into battle with the Aliens to die, they are so stupid that no one cares, they are no help to society. How do I know most Marines are dumb? Cause they can't count. They seem to think 11 and 5 are the same numbers.
Incase you didn't catch the meaning of that rant, people swarm to the Marines side and never once consider that perhaps the teams need to be balanced, and, I hope to see an auto-switch ability so that a random Marine, even the commander, can get switched out in 3 minutes if the teams become uneven and no one does switch before that time. One big thing, is Marines having to many people, then an Alien leaves, so then the teams become unbalanced right there. I think it would be funny if it was a 50/50 chance of the commander leaving, and possibly at 1, 1:30, or 2 minutes, so all of a sudden, their commander is gone, cause they don't enjoy playing fair.
ummm the new patch just fixed the marine whoring...
kthx....
I think that the predominance of turrets and Heavy / Heavy marines sort of tore down the necessity to depend on your teammates for the marine team; hence, it is now common for marines to walk off by themselves - suicidal to say the least, and dangerous even with heavy / heavy. Small squads of 3 or 4 LMG marines are almost infinitely more effective than a single marine with HMG simply because they have better lastability, and they cost fewer resources as well.
I realise that squad - based strategy can split marine forces, but it also aids the most important part of playing the marines - expansion. A squad of marines can set up a resource node and protect it until turrets come on line - 1 or 2 marines are far easier to kill, especially if they are all building at the time.
/sarcasm
anyway its what happens when you stay up till 4 for the 3rd night in a row playin ns. the stupidity from lack of sleep just oozes out of every pore.
However, the devs are smart and realize that some of us have a clue what we're talking about. That's why it is a good sign that we're hearing a lot of people on the forums enjoy the changes. I think that ultimately this is a step in the right drection.
I am under the impression that there needs to be a few more changes. Two things that I think should ultimately be investigated:
1. Find the way to get the aliens out of a situation where they are trapped with only one hive and have turrets preventing them from building in either of the other two hives. (Giving 1 hive alien technology a means to better thwart sentry turrets is my main push here.)
2. Give the marines a couple of starting turrets to prevent them from being overrun at the start of a match by a dedicated rush. (Yes, the marines could bail themselves out if they're good, but sometimes that's an awfully big 'if'.)
I'm reserving any other judgement until after I get a chance to try things out after the patch.
Auto-Team-Balance!
It has been getting annoying to play 10 Marines vs 6 Aliens all the time.
Ya, I guess I fell under that whiner category. My email to him was actually quite immature if I think back. I didn't say anything harsh, and after reading it, it was just retarded. He's heard what I've said over a million times. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Its nice that Flayra's working hard though. So far, he's done a better job than most COMPANIES I've seen. Hell, he got a patch out in a week. Most companies coulden't do that if their lives depended on it. I think he deserves a break <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think it was an excellent idea that you guys kept old play testing elements and concepts and put em in if needed.
All I really can say: Damn good job NS team.
(watches a bunch of people jump out of windows)
Mmmmmmk then. An LMG has 50 shots, with about 10 damage a shot, I'f I read that right. That's 500 damage a clip, over about 3 seconds, is 166.667 damage per second.
Now, lets say that the marines have the skill of slime mold, and can only get 1/4th of their bullets to hit. That brings the total ammount of damage done by a single marine down to 41.667 damage a second, enough to cripple a fade by the time they empty their clips at them, but not enough to kill them with the new armor. OmFg! Unb4|4nc3!
But hang on a second there, 1337-y. They are aiming for 4 marines to a fade.... mmmk, that "skill of slime mold thing" just got canceled out. The fireteam as a whole is back up to dumping 166.667 damage a second onto that fade. Doesn't seem so unbalanced now, does it?
Bottom line, fireteam versus fade in open combat= fade soup. But we wont be in open combat, if the fade player has any skill at all, he'll be hiding, using pseudo- hit and run tactics until he gets you down to 2 marines... and then he blinks at you and rips you up.
So, if the marines check their corners, check for cloaking, and cover each other, they can defeat that fade. It just takes.. (GASP!) thinking.
I still have to try a server with new patch to see the difference so i can´t say if it´s good or bad yet.
*pokes Draco again for not being on msn*