Well, the chicken harvester looks bad without any information: it appears the chickens are just fine going in the harvester. Without any information, it's hard to know what to feel about it. Those large wheels with the "spikes" could very well be very pliable, I don't know.
As for the fur video, I am frustrated at the apathy toward the animals. I don't mind the killing, but I don't see how it's necessary to keep them alive while they're being skinned. That's not really necessary. I've been present for a muskrat skinning, and I know that generally a blunt force to the head is the preferred method of killing, but it seems the folks in the video are doing so to stun, and not to kill. Rather inhumane to me. Just add some more force and finish the thing off, for crying out loud.
tbh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> my God...i have never felt more pity towards animals then after watching that video.
if you didn't see it, i am telling you now, DON'T. It's purely sick and cruel....
<!--QuoteBegin-Mullet+Mar 9 2005, 11:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ Mar 9 2005, 11:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Meh...These videos mean nothing to me ever since I saw those beheading videos of soldiers in Iraq. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, because a human being killed in a relatively quick manner is nothing compared to a bunch of animals being FLIPPING SKINNED ALIVE! You'll forgive me if I feel more sorrow for these animals then I do for Nick Burg.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 10 2005, 12:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 10 2005, 12:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, because a human being killed in a relatively quick manner is nothing compared to a bunch of animals being FLIPPING SKINNED ALIVE! You'll forgive me if I feel more sorrow for these animals then I do for Nick Burg. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Humans are far more important than animals. Beheading someone isn't exactly quick, nor were those who were beheaded given the courtesy of a blow to the head to stun them. I'm not saying that what was done to the animals was acceptable, but I'd far see an animal skinned alive than an innocent person killed - in any manner.
<!--QuoteBegin-MedHead+Mar 10 2005, 12:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Mar 10 2005, 12:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Humans are far more important than animals. Beheading someone isn't exactly quick, nor were those who were beheaded given the courtesy of a blow to the head to stun them. I'm not saying that what was done to the animals was acceptable, but I'd far see an animal skinned alive than an innocent person killed - in any manner. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? Because I'd go the other way every time. Of course, I completely disagree with the idea that humans are "far more" important then animals. At least in so far as that statement applies to suffering.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 10 2005, 12:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 10 2005, 12:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really? Because I'd go the other way every time. Of course, I completely disagree with the idea that humans are "far more" important then animals. At least in so far as that statement applies to suffering. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's sad.
<!--QuoteBegin-MedHead+Mar 10 2005, 12:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Mar 10 2005, 12:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's sad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, what is sad is that so many humans feel the suffering of animals isn't important because they aren't human. That an animal's suffering is somehow different then their's would be. It is, quite frankly, disgusting. I would list that kind of lack of empathy as one of humanities greatest flaws.
Just because you don't know a person doesn't mean you can't be a <i>tad</i> empathetic towards their suffering Skulkbait. Enough so that you can understand that the pain a sentient thinking creature feels is far worse than the pain a regular animal would feel.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 10 2005, 12:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 10 2005, 12:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, what is sad is that so many humans feel the suffering of animals isn't important because they aren't human. That an animal's suffering is somehow different then their's would be. It is, quite frankly, disgusting. I would list that kind of lack of empathy as one of humanities greatest flaws. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Two words have such power: enough power that all my previous posts in this thread can be ignored.
Despite humans and animals suffering being of equal importance in your opinion, you stated you'd far rather have humans beheaded than an animal skinned alive. Would you extend this to any animal death? Would you rather shoot a human than a puppy? I can't tell where you stand. Already I disagree with you, but I'm curious as to how far you take your ideals.
<!--QuoteBegin-MedHead+Mar 10 2005, 01:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Mar 10 2005, 01:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Despite humans and animals suffering being of equal importance in your opinion, you stated you'd far rather have humans beheaded than an animal skinned alive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope. You aren't listening. I said that their <i>suffering</i> was just as important. I'd rather see a human beheaded then a human skinned alive, and so therefore I'd rather see a human beheaded then an animal skinned alive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would you extend this to any animal death? Would you rather shoot a human than a puppy?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but only because humans suck (and dogs rule). You're misinterpreting what I'm saying, read above.
Perhaps you really mean for it to come out the way you did? Valuing the life of an animal more than a human's? I'm kinda hoping we misunderstood what you said.
I understand where you are coming from as far as animal abuse goes. Of course it's sad, and horrible to see. It's not right nor ethical. But just because the animal is cute and fuzzy and the human is not, that doesn't mean you can say that the animal deserves to suffer less than the person. You speak as if you are disillusioned with humanity, however your attitude towards a single person in pain is the kind that sparks people to be disillusioned in the first place. Think on it. You don't know the person being beheaded, but just because you are disgusted with people as a whole, you project that disgust onto the victim? What kind of rationale is that?
So did I misunderstand you or what?
**EDIT** Two things being equal, the animal's suffering and the human's, doesn't pan out with your deciding the animal's skinning is more important than the person's beheading.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 10 2005, 01:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 10 2005, 01:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nope. You aren't listening. I said that their <i>suffering</i> was just as important. I'd rather see a human beheaded then a human skinned alive, and so therefore I'd rather see a human beheaded then an animal skinned alive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, I see. I disagree completely with that... human and animal suffering are definitely different. Animals are provided for humans, and are under their control. Torturing animals is disturbing to me, don't get me wrong. But in the end there's no comparison between a human and an animal's suffering. It's... unsettling to hear animals being placed in the same status as humans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->**EDIT** Two things being equal, the animal's suffering and the human's, doesn't pan out with your deciding the animal's skinning is more important than the person's beheading.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? Which would you rather: Nick Berg is beheaded, or Nick Burg is skinned alive. Easy choice isn't it?
BTW, I will admit that I'm dissillusioned with humanity, probably because they do **** like this. But I'm not being insensitive to anyone's pain, the people here placing Nick Berg's quick and relatively painless death over the horrible prolonged agony of these animals, who have been flipping skinned alive mind you, are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ah, I see. I disagree completely with that... human and animal suffering are definitely different. Animals are provided for humans, and are under their control.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only if you believe the bullsh*t printed in a 5,000 year old book. They aren't different. If you are skinned alive you will feel exactly as much pain as those animals unfortunate enough to be born in china.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Torturing animals is disturbing to me, don't get me wrong. But in the end there's no comparison between a human and an animal's suffering. It's... unsettling to hear animals being placed in the same status as humans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have the exact same feeling hearing a human place himself above anything else so readily. Honestly, its one of the (many, many) things I hate about humanity.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 10 2005, 01:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 10 2005, 01:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->**EDIT** Two things being equal, the animal's suffering and the human's, doesn't pan out with your deciding the animal's skinning is more important than the person's beheading.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? Which would you rather: Nick Berg is beheaded, or Nick Burg is skinned alive. Easy choice isn't it?
BTW, I will admit that I'm dissillusioned with humanity, probably because they do **** like this. But I'm not being insensitive to anyone's pain, the people here placing Nick Berg's quick and relatively painless death over the horrible prolonged agony of these animals, who have been flipping skinned alive mind you, are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought they didn't kill him with the first swing? Or was that a different guy? You know, when they were chopping his head off, it didn't go clear through and he was still alive briefly?
Even then yes, I guess if you put it in terms of having their heads chopped off or having their skin removed yes, pain wise the severing of the head would be less.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 10 2005, 01:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 10 2005, 01:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Only if you believe the bullsh*t printed in a 5,000 year old book. They aren't different. If you are skinned alive you will feel exactly as much pain as those animals unfortunate enough to be born in china.
I have the exact same feeling hearing a human place himself above anything else so readily. Honestly, its one of the (many, many) things I hate about humanity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This will be my last post referencing your comments, because you've shown you're willing to act calmly in these discussions.
Yes, I believe in the Bible. What it says is true. Whether the animal feels pain is not really a concern when the life of a human is at stake. The animal's needs are secondary. This does not mean I approve of what has been done to the animals. What it does mean is that I don't become so vehemently frustrated with humanity that I start lowering their status to those of mere animals.
It's depressing to see a soul so overcome with hate.
<!--QuoteBegin-MedHead+Mar 10 2005, 01:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Mar 10 2005, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This will be my last post referencing your comments, because you've shown you're willing to act calmly in these discussions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't survive a few years in the discussion forum if you can't. (Though in all honesty there are a few times I probably should have been banned).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, I believe in the Bible. What it says is true. Whether the animal feels pain is not really a concern when the life of a human is at stake. The animal's needs are secondary. This does not mean I approve of what has been done to the animals. What it does mean is that I don't become so vehemently frustrated with humanity that I start lowering their status to those of mere animals.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then there can be no further discussion. Our reasoning is based in two completely different ideas. I doubt you will accept mine and I certainly will not accept yours, so it is useless to continue.
Guys, don't bother arguing with MedHead, since his opinion of non-human animals bothers you so much.
I disagree completely with MedHead, but there's no point in arguing. You'd have a better chance at getting a brick wall to admit that it's a small Austrian teenage girl. (This is in no way meaning to be insulting. In fact, I'd go so far as to congratulate MedHead for being so sure in his beliefs, even though they're ones that I disagree with. It's rare to see a Christian who fully believes in what the Bible says.)
Wow I just watched the video of the animals being skinned alive....that's very disturbing. You'd think the person would have the heart to end their life before skinning them...
But what can I do about it? Absolutely nothing...dun dun duunnnn
<!--QuoteBegin-Mullet+Mar 10 2005, 01:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ Mar 10 2005, 01:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You'd think the person would have the heart to end their life before skinning them... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You'd think so. I mean its not that difficult to keep a sharp knife handy for slitting their throats.
Its interesting... why does it bother us so much the concept of death or torture? sure, empathy, but I mean, many lower/smaller species die in order to perpetuate the existance of species higher on the food chain, and lions/tigers/any carnivor don't always kill in the most swift and merciful ways (although alot of kills are a swift bite to the neck, crushing the spine). We ourselfs are designed to eat and digest meat, and our early ancestors would have had to kill simply for survival, and we have been farming livestock since the days of the early early biblical ancestors. Why is it that when we see something furry being skinned alive (quite likely simply out of the people who are doing it's own need to survive), it instantly evokes a sickened and outraged reaction in most of us, even some of us who have been involved in killing livestock and farm animals before?
I don't think there is a word in english for the concept I am trying to express here, and I obviously have a little farther to go towards defining it, but its an interesting subject none the less.
For those of you who this is relevent too... its interesting how in early genesis it talks about man being placed on earth to govern over and protect the animals. The emotions we feel in such circumstances don't really seem nessicary to perpetuate our survival as a species, yet we have them none the less... a concept described in the earliest biblical writings that our english language still doesn't even have a word for.
[edit] to express my opinion, I belive the suffering of animals to be as great as the suffering of humans in empathetic terms. But it still has to be accepted that hunting and the eating of other species is valid human expression where the hunting and eating of our own species is not. These are more or less just laws of the human psyche that most people possess, and they don't nessicarily hold logical or intellectual grounds. Never the less, we will most likely keep following them until the end of our existance, unless one day we acctually humanize animals to the point where we share the earth as equals with them... which I personally belive is doubtful.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 10 2005, 02:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 10 2005, 02:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its interesting... why does it bother us so much the concept of death or torture? sure, empathy, but I mean, many lower/smaller species die in order to perpetuate the existance of species higher on the food chain, and lions/tigers/any carnivor don't always kill in the most swift and merciful ways (although alot of kills are a swift bite to the neck, crushing the spine). We ourselfs are designed to eat and digest meat, and our early ancestors would have had to kill simply for survival, and we have been farming livestock since the days of the early early biblical ancestors. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Like you said: survive. That is the important part there. Animals kill other animals to survive. We hunted, and now raise, animals for food because it is a nessesary part of our diet (mostly).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why is it that when we see something furry being skinned alive (quite likely simply out of the people who are doing it's own need to survive)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is it possible that skinning it alive (as opoosed to dead) contributes to their survival in any fassion? Not to mention that they're doing it for fur, which will be sold to the rich who don't need it to stay warm, but rather to look pretty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it instantly evokes a sickened and outraged reaction in most of us, even some of us who have been involved in killing livestock and farm animals before?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> for exactly the reason I stated above.
Emotion is a common link between Humans and Animals. Empathy is also part of our Human society. If a person feels no empathy for an Animal, why would they feel any empathy for a Human?
It would be far easier to skin a dead animal than a living one, especially if you're afraid it will bite you or scratch you. My guess is that they are trying to make as much money as possible while leaving the skin intact. In other words, they're driven by greed.
Still, I don't doubt they would have killed the undercover reporter if they had the chance, based on their behavior towards their animals. After all, those videos are bad for their bottom line.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
edited March 2005
[QUOTE=]my God...i have never felt more pity towards animals then after watching that video.[/QUOTE] I didn't know there was a video after reading this post... holy mother flipping ****. That was horrendous watching that thing move around without it's skin.
As I've said many times, I work in a vet surgery, so I really like animals. I also happen to believe what I read in a certain 5000 year old book. I reject that the simple amount of pain determines, irrespective of whether you are a human or animal, which should happen in preference to the other - the death of an animal, no matter how extreme, is always better than the death of an innocent human. But to honestly make that comparison, you have to imagine a hypothetical (and completely crazy) situation in which you get to choose either or, and we'll never have to.
For the men who sawed Nick Berg's head off, and the men who skinned these animals alive, there will be reckoning. I'm satisfied with that. Another man who liked animals and that 5000 year old book had this to say, which pretty much sums it all up:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who deal likewise with their fellow man.
Saint Francis of Assisi<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine0I+Mar 10 2005, 09:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine0I @ Mar 10 2005, 09:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As I've said many times, I work in a vet surgery, so I really like animals. I also happen to believe what I read in a certain 5000 year old book. I reject that the simple amount of pain determines, irrespective of whether you are a human or animal, which should happen in preference to the other - the death of an animal, no matter how extreme, is always better than the death of an innocent human. But to honestly make that comparison, you have to imagine a hypothetical (and completely crazy) situation in which you get to choose either or, and we'll never have to.
For the men who sawed Nick Berg's head off, and the men who skinned these animals alive, there will be reckoning. I'm satisfied with that. Another man who liked animals and that 5000 year old book had this to say, which pretty much sums it all up:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who deal likewise with their fellow man.
Saint Francis of Assisi<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well aren't people who eat the chickens just as responsible as the people who actually kill them, that is, if they are aware of how they are killed and skinned. It seems to me a convenient way to detach ourselves from what is being done to these animals, just by reminding ourselves it wasn't us who actually killed them. Out of sight, out of mind i guess. I think i'm gonna check the chicken I eat is killed humanely and lives a relatively natural life now...
I DON'T EVEN KNOW ANY MORE D:<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->((((((. That live skinning thing made me nearly sick. I really don't see the function for something like that.
Comments
As for the fur video, I am frustrated at the apathy toward the animals. I don't mind the killing, but I don't see how it's necessary to keep them alive while they're being skinned. That's not really necessary. I've been present for a muskrat skinning, and I know that generally a blunt force to the head is the preferred method of killing, but it seems the folks in the video are doing so to stun, and not to kill. Rather inhumane to me. Just add some more force and finish the thing off, for crying out loud.
Best first post ever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Custom title?
tbh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
my God...i have never felt more pity towards animals then after watching that video.
if you didn't see it, i am telling you now, DON'T. It's purely sick and cruel....
Yeah, because a human being killed in a relatively quick manner is nothing compared to a bunch of animals being FLIPPING SKINNED ALIVE! You'll forgive me if I feel more sorrow for these animals then I do for Nick Burg.
Humans are far more important than animals. Beheading someone isn't exactly quick, nor were those who were beheaded given the courtesy of a blow to the head to stun them. I'm not saying that what was done to the animals was acceptable, but I'd far see an animal skinned alive than an innocent person killed - in any manner.
Really? Because I'd go the other way every time. Of course, I completely disagree with the idea that humans are "far more" important then animals. At least in so far as that statement applies to suffering.
That's sad.
That's sad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, what is sad is that so many humans feel the suffering of animals isn't important because they aren't human. That an animal's suffering is somehow different then their's would be. It is, quite frankly, disgusting. I would list that kind of lack of empathy as one of humanities greatest flaws.
Two words have such power: enough power that all my previous posts in this thread can be ignored.
Despite humans and animals suffering being of equal importance in your opinion, you stated you'd far rather have humans beheaded than an animal skinned alive. Would you extend this to any animal death? Would you rather shoot a human than a puppy? I can't tell where you stand. Already I disagree with you, but I'm curious as to how far you take your ideals.
Nope. You aren't listening. I said that their <i>suffering</i> was just as important. I'd rather see a human beheaded then a human skinned alive, and so therefore I'd rather see a human beheaded then an animal skinned alive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would you extend this to any animal death? Would you rather shoot a human than a puppy?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but only because humans suck (and dogs rule). You're misinterpreting what I'm saying, read above.
I understand where you are coming from as far as animal abuse goes. Of course it's sad, and horrible to see. It's not right nor ethical. But just because the animal is cute and fuzzy and the human is not, that doesn't mean you can say that the animal deserves to suffer less than the person. You speak as if you are disillusioned with humanity, however your attitude towards a single person in pain is the kind that sparks people to be disillusioned in the first place. Think on it. You don't know the person being beheaded, but just because you are disgusted with people as a whole, you project that disgust onto the victim? What kind of rationale is that?
So did I misunderstand you or what?
**EDIT** Two things being equal, the animal's suffering and the human's, doesn't pan out with your deciding the animal's skinning is more important than the person's beheading.
Ah, I see. I disagree completely with that... human and animal suffering are definitely different. Animals are provided for humans, and are under their control. Torturing animals is disturbing to me, don't get me wrong. But in the end there's no comparison between a human and an animal's suffering. It's... unsettling to hear animals being placed in the same status as humans.
Why not? Which would you rather: Nick Berg is beheaded, or Nick Burg is skinned alive. Easy choice isn't it?
BTW, I will admit that I'm dissillusioned with humanity, probably because they do **** like this. But I'm not being insensitive to anyone's pain, the people here placing Nick Berg's quick and relatively painless death over the horrible prolonged agony of these animals, who have been flipping skinned alive mind you, are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ah, I see. I disagree completely with that... human and animal suffering are definitely different. Animals are provided for humans, and are under their control.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if you believe the bullsh*t printed in a 5,000 year old book. They aren't different. If you are skinned alive you will feel exactly as much pain as those animals unfortunate enough to be born in china.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Torturing animals is disturbing to me, don't get me wrong. But in the end there's no comparison between a human and an animal's suffering. It's... unsettling to hear animals being placed in the same status as humans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have the exact same feeling hearing a human place himself above anything else so readily. Honestly, its one of the (many, many) things I hate about humanity.
Why not? Which would you rather: Nick Berg is beheaded, or Nick Burg is skinned alive. Easy choice isn't it?
BTW, I will admit that I'm dissillusioned with humanity, probably because they do **** like this. But I'm not being insensitive to anyone's pain, the people here placing Nick Berg's quick and relatively painless death over the horrible prolonged agony of these animals, who have been flipping skinned alive mind you, are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought they didn't kill him with the first swing? Or was that a different guy? You know, when they were chopping his head off, it didn't go clear through and he was still alive briefly?
Even then yes, I guess if you put it in terms of having their heads chopped off or having their skin removed yes, pain wise the severing of the head would be less.
<span style='color:yellow'><span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'><b><i><u>AT THE SAME TIME</u></i></b></span></span>
I have the exact same feeling hearing a human place himself above anything else so readily. Honestly, its one of the (many, many) things I hate about humanity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This will be my last post referencing your comments, because you've shown you're willing to act calmly in these discussions.
Yes, I believe in the Bible. What it says is true. Whether the animal feels pain is not really a concern when the life of a human is at stake. The animal's needs are secondary. This does not mean I approve of what has been done to the animals. What it does mean is that I don't become so vehemently frustrated with humanity that I start lowering their status to those of mere animals.
It's depressing to see a soul so overcome with hate.
You don't survive a few years in the discussion forum if you can't. (Though in all honesty there are a few times I probably should have been banned).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Yes, I believe in the Bible. What it says is true. Whether the animal feels pain is not really a concern when the life of a human is at stake. The animal's needs are secondary. This does not mean I approve of what has been done to the animals. What it does mean is that I don't become so vehemently frustrated with humanity that I start lowering their status to those of mere animals.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then there can be no further discussion. Our reasoning is based in two completely different ideas. I doubt you will accept mine and I certainly will not accept yours, so it is useless to continue.
I disagree completely with MedHead, but there's no point in arguing. You'd have a better chance at getting a brick wall to admit that it's a small Austrian teenage girl. (This is in no way meaning to be insulting. In fact, I'd go so far as to congratulate MedHead for being so sure in his beliefs, even though they're ones that I disagree with. It's rare to see a Christian who fully believes in what the Bible says.)
But what can I do about it? Absolutely nothing...dun dun duunnnn
You'd think so. I mean its not that difficult to keep a sharp knife handy for slitting their throats.
I don't think there is a word in english for the concept I am trying to express here, and I obviously have a little farther to go towards defining it, but its an interesting subject none the less.
For those of you who this is relevent too... its interesting how in early genesis it talks about man being placed on earth to govern over and protect the animals. The emotions we feel in such circumstances don't really seem nessicary to perpetuate our survival as a species, yet we have them none the less... a concept described in the earliest biblical writings that our english language still doesn't even have a word for.
[edit] to express my opinion, I belive the suffering of animals to be as great as the suffering of humans in empathetic terms. But it still has to be accepted that hunting and the eating of other species is valid human expression where the hunting and eating of our own species is not. These are more or less just laws of the human psyche that most people possess, and they don't nessicarily hold logical or intellectual grounds. Never the less, we will most likely keep following them until the end of our existance, unless one day we acctually humanize animals to the point where we share the earth as equals with them... which I personally belive is doubtful.
Like you said: survive. That is the important part there. Animals kill other animals to survive. We hunted, and now raise, animals for food because it is a nessesary part of our diet (mostly).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why is it that when we see something furry being skinned alive (quite likely simply out of the people who are doing it's own need to survive)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is it possible that skinning it alive (as opoosed to dead) contributes to their survival in any fassion? Not to mention that they're doing it for fur, which will be sold to the rich who don't need it to stay warm, but rather to look pretty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it instantly evokes a sickened and outraged reaction in most of us, even some of us who have been involved in killing livestock and farm animals before?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
for exactly the reason I stated above.
It would be far easier to skin a dead animal than a living one, especially if you're afraid it will bite you or scratch you. My guess is that they are trying to make as much money as possible while leaving the skin intact. In other words, they're driven by greed.
Still, I don't doubt they would have killed the undercover reporter if they had the chance, based on their behavior towards their animals. After all, those videos are bad for their bottom line.
I didn't know there was a video after reading this post... holy mother flipping ****. That was horrendous watching that thing move around without it's skin.
For the men who sawed Nick Berg's head off, and the men who skinned these animals alive, there will be reckoning. I'm satisfied with that. Another man who liked animals and that 5000 year old book had this to say, which pretty much sums it all up:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who deal likewise with their fellow man.
Saint Francis of Assisi<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the men who sawed Nick Berg's head off, and the men who skinned these animals alive, there will be reckoning. I'm satisfied with that. Another man who liked animals and that 5000 year old book had this to say, which pretty much sums it all up:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who deal likewise with their fellow man.
Saint Francis of Assisi<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well aren't people who eat the chickens just as responsible as the people who actually kill them, that is, if they are aware of how they are killed and skinned. It seems to me a convenient way to detach ourselves from what is being done to these animals, just by reminding ourselves it wasn't us who actually killed them. Out of sight, out of mind i guess.
I think i'm gonna check the chicken I eat is killed humanely and lives a relatively natural life now...
That live skinning thing made me nearly sick. I really don't see the function for something like that.