<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Incorrect, Squishy. Marines' long-range advantage is a neat counter... even four Mairnes can stand up to six Kharaa, if they're working together and focussing fire. An equal exhibition of teamwork will go in the Marines' favor.
It's just that Kharaa are forced to adapt... lerk for umbra, fade to take out that base, gorge for BB and healing support; whereas Marines just all get handed shotguns or HMGs, or in a turtle situation, GLs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combined with constant spores on any large mass which a pub team with good teamwork has going for them, they should win unless the rines have like 3:2 upgs with advanced weps. Which the marines should never ever get because it is so easy to pick them off early game and stop expansion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A heterogenous mix of weaponry would benefit the Marines similarly. A shotgunner or two to handle point and rearguard, an HMG for suppressive fire and large lifeform damage, and a GLer to remove structures, fire for effect, clear vents, and in general support the shotgunners by herding the enemy units as well as possible.
Just everyone is still in the 'OMG SH0tguNZ!!!!11!eleven!!!' mindset. Perhaps the Kharaa being able to rip through will encourage comms to use the advantage of niche-assigning their Marines through dropped equipment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Things never ever work out like this. Even in competitive play the gl guys is going to end up having to pistol some skulk or the hmger will be reloading and die because the shotgunner was to far away to reg shots. Theoretically if marines never missed you could just send out 5 lmgers but perfection is a hard thing to attain.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Which is why the first target is the Lerk. Combined fire will kill it in one or two seconds, tops. That was amazingly difficult.
And yes, you don't see german clockwork precision teamwork, though I'm not sure if I'd use 'competative' play as an example of the apex of the game; however, even the amount offered on a number of pubs has been enough to start making life difficult for Kharaa again. Once the clans start to adapt, maybe we'll see a bit less whingeing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which is why the first target is the Lerk. Combined fire will kill it in one or two seconds, tops. That was amazingly difficult. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of retarded lerk gets killed in two seconds? Most lerks don't walk slowly into the advancing marines....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And yes, you don't see german clockwork precision teamwork, though I'm not sure if I'd use 'competative' play as an example of the apex of the game; however, even the amount offered on a number of pubs has been enough to start making life difficult for Kharaa again. Once the clans start to adapt, maybe we'll see a bit less whingeing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SquishyOne+Mar 9 2005, 05:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SquishyOne @ Mar 9 2005, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What kind of retarded lerk gets killed in two seconds? Most lerks don't walk slowly into the advancing marines....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Any lerk that get shot at by two guys with pistols. 2 unupgraded pistols can kill a 3-hive cara lerk.
One clip will kill a lerk if it stands there like a boon head, but honestly, what sort of idiot can't press jump and fly away in the time it takes for another guy to aim and hit a button 5+ times.
It's cool, i've already adapted to dropping 5 sieges and needing two obs.
You use seiges now <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
They are completely worthless in all but a few situations....
I think it comes down to.. as it has been said many times over and over, that the marines need teamwork to survive, and still too many people havent realized that. There are rambos getting owned within five seconds of walking outside the base alone, and they're screaming unbalance. Last version, if the marine team used any sort of teamwork, the aliens had an incredably over tough time. I believe 3.0 final addresses all the issues that aliens had early, middle, and late game. It is indeed, a new experience.. a much, much more fun experience for aliens as well.
I'll miss agora and mineshaft as well.. such, such good maps.
For the longest time now, but especially in 3.0's beta, marines had known that they only needed a low level of teamwork to compete with aliens, and so they never bothered to try for more. They realized that marines could run around the map alone or in pairs and easily prevail against the weak, early-game-DMS skulks. Thus, ramboing was born; a "strategy" that maximized map coverage while taking advantage of the inherent weakness of early game aliens.
Then came 3.0 Final. The various improvements to upgrades made skulks a much more potent force in the early game, even with DMS. Suddenly, rambo marines started to get owned by cloaking/focus and silence/celerity skulks. After repeatedly failing to out-rambo the new and improved alien team, many marines became frustrated and immediately concluded that aliens had become overpowered. It should be obvious to anyone that in the short amount of time since release, they could not possibly have explored all their options to counter the changes. More importantly though, even if the comm has a really brilliant strategy and tries to execute it, such things have not yet come into mainstream thinking for marines, and most of them still cling stubbornly to the rambo style of old. Even if they try to follow the comm's plan, their execution is poor because they aren't yet familiar with it. How do you think it is that most marines in 1.0 learned that JP/HMG was king, and all aliens agreed only to use DMS? Even if you think you've thought of every strategy, it takes time for more marine players to become familiar with them.
I think the "problem" is twofold. First, there are a number of direct counters that many marines do not properly utilize; probably the biggest one is that almost no comms in 3.0F think to take advantage of the cheaper scanner sweeps to ping the map for cloakers as their team passes by. I can't count the number of times since release I've seen good comms sit around with 100 energy in their obs because they're not used to even thinking about it. Second, marines need to stop being so complacent with their ability to face off against one or two skulks by themselves; ramboing has got to go if marines are going to be successful. Concentrated fire is a huge advantage for marines. The marine team was always supposed to be about coordination and teamwork, and even if they're a little underpowered, I for one am glad that some initiative is being taken to finally make them that way.
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Mar 9 2005, 07:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Mar 9 2005, 07:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Short version, rambos are not intended to survive. Marines are intended to work as a contiguous unit under the direction of their Commander. A lone Marine versus a lone Skulk is intended to go in the Skulk's favor, a 2v2 matches fairly evenly, and a 3v3 goes in the Marines' favor (assuming players of equal skill). Use fireteams. Don't run off like a headless chicken. A lone marine is kibble.
It's been a while since real teamwork has been neccessary on the Marine side of the game; it will take time for the Marines to adjust... and possibly even more for Commanders to remember the forgotten (or never learned) 1.0x skills of actually managing the team, rather than being an eye-in-the-sky building and health dropper. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For the longest time now, but especially in 3.0's beta, marines had known that they only needed a low level of teamwork to compete with aliens, and so they never bothered to try for more. They realized that marines could run around the map alone or in pairs and easily prevail against the weak, early-game-DMS skulks. Thus, ramboing was born; a "strategy" that maximized map coverage while taking advantage of the inherent weakness of early game aliens.
Then came 3.0 Final. The various improvements to upgrades made skulks a much more potent force in the early game, even with DMS. Suddenly, rambo marines started to get owned by cloaking/focus and silence/celerity skulks. After repeatedly failing to out-rambo the new and improved alien team, many marines became frustrated and immediately concluded that aliens had become overpowered. It should be obvious to anyone that in the short amount of time since release, they could not possibly have explored all their options to counter the changes. More importantly though, even if the comm has a really brilliant strategy and tries to execute it, such things have not yet come into mainstream thinking for marines, and most of them still cling stubbornly to the rambo style of old. Even if they try to follow the comm's plan, their execution is poor because they aren't yet familiar with it. How do you think it is that most marines in 1.0 learned that JP/HMG was king, and all aliens agreed only to use DMS? Even if you think you've thought of every strategy, it takes time for more marine players to become familiar with them.
I think the "problem" is twofold. First, there are a number of direct counters that many marines do not properly utilize; probably the biggest one is that almost no comms in 3.0F think to take advantage of the cheaper scanner sweeps to ping the map for cloakers as their team passes by. I can't count the number of times since release I've seen good comms sit around with 100 energy in their obs because they're not used to even thinking about it. Second, marines need to stop being so complacent with their ability to face off against one or two skulks by themselves; ramboing has got to go if marines are going to be successful. Concentrated fire is a huge advantage for marines. The marine team was always supposed to be about coordination and teamwork, and even if they're a little underpowered, I for one am glad that some initiative is being taken to finally make them that way. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for the truth!
All correct, Zek. I played a game on Altair where we did pretty much what you described but lost in the end because we couldnt expand fast enough to grab all the res nodes. I had two central bases (marine start and one locked down hive) and a smaller base at the center of the map that contained an observitory, a second one. I had 200 energy to use for scanner sweeps and it was just barily enough, but it did perfectally fine. Many times I had to keep on bitching at my marines to stay in a group, but when they did towards the middle things came together sweetly. The aliens simply expanded faster.
But commanding is sure as hell fun now. Its all a micromanagement rush, very, very fun indeed. Having two observitorys on standby as your squad with asorted weapons moves towards a hive is great. Pinging nearby corridors and seeings whats in front of them, "Alright guys.. its just one fade, a lerk and theres a skulk in the vent. Watch your backs comming in.. go." Best game I've ever played.
With the alien buffs commanding has gotten where it needs to be, one with the team again, and something that marines <i>must</i> rely on in order to survive.
When you are loosing as an alien the game sucks. The games sometimes (most times) take a long time to end. It is boring, there is typically very little yo can do. (GENERALIZATIONS) As a marine, when you are losing, you can at least still give your last go. Drop hmgs and shotties, camp in base, try to save for an ha train, try to sneak a pg, etc. The game, though you know you are probably still going to loose, is more fun. I think it's awesome that rines don't have the upperhand now. Balance is in the mind of the beholder.
I agree with what others said in this thread, once rines figure out their new strats and adapt they will do better.
Comments
It's just that Kharaa are forced to adapt... lerk for umbra, fade to take out that base, gorge for BB and healing support; whereas Marines just all get handed shotguns or HMGs, or in a turtle situation, GLs.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combined with constant spores on any large mass which a pub team with good teamwork has going for them, they should win unless the rines have like 3:2 upgs with advanced weps. Which the marines should never ever get because it is so easy to pick them off early game and stop expansion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A heterogenous mix of weaponry would benefit the Marines similarly. A shotgunner or two to handle point and rearguard, an HMG for suppressive fire and large lifeform damage, and a GLer to remove structures, fire for effect, clear vents, and in general support the shotgunners by herding the enemy units as well as possible.
Just everyone is still in the 'OMG SH0tguNZ!!!!11!eleven!!!' mindset. Perhaps the Kharaa being able to rip through will encourage comms to use the advantage of niche-assigning their Marines through dropped equipment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Things never ever work out like this. Even in competitive play the gl guys is going to end up having to pistol some skulk or the hmger will be reloading and die because the shotgunner was to far away to reg shots. Theoretically if marines never missed you could just send out 5 lmgers but perfection is a hard thing to attain.
And yes, you don't see german clockwork precision teamwork, though I'm not sure if I'd use 'competative' play as an example of the apex of the game; however, even the amount offered on a number of pubs has been enough to start making life difficult for Kharaa again. Once the clans start to adapt, maybe we'll see a bit less whingeing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of retarded lerk gets killed in two seconds? Most lerks don't walk slowly into the advancing marines....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And yes, you don't see german clockwork precision teamwork, though I'm not sure if I'd use 'competative' play as an example of the apex of the game; however, even the amount offered on a number of pubs has been enough to start making life difficult for Kharaa again. Once the clans start to adapt, maybe we'll see a bit less whingeing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not even worthy of a response.
Any lerk that get shot at by two guys with pistols. 2 unupgraded pistols can kill a 3-hive cara lerk.
Give the game a few weeks for commanders and marines to work out how to play and i think we will see a very very even playing field.
It's cool, i've already adapted to dropping 5 sieges and needing two obs.
They are completely worthless in all but a few situations....
I'll miss agora and mineshaft as well.. such, such good maps.
Then came 3.0 Final. The various improvements to upgrades made skulks a much more potent force in the early game, even with DMS. Suddenly, rambo marines started to get owned by cloaking/focus and silence/celerity skulks. After repeatedly failing to out-rambo the new and improved alien team, many marines became frustrated and immediately concluded that aliens had become overpowered. It should be obvious to anyone that in the short amount of time since release, they could not possibly have explored all their options to counter the changes. More importantly though, even if the comm has a really brilliant strategy and tries to execute it, such things have not yet come into mainstream thinking for marines, and most of them still cling stubbornly to the rambo style of old. Even if they try to follow the comm's plan, their execution is poor because they aren't yet familiar with it. How do you think it is that most marines in 1.0 learned that JP/HMG was king, and all aliens agreed only to use DMS? Even if you think you've thought of every strategy, it takes time for more marine players to become familiar with them.
I think the "problem" is twofold. First, there are a number of direct counters that many marines do not properly utilize; probably the biggest one is that almost no comms in 3.0F think to take advantage of the cheaper scanner sweeps to ping the map for cloakers as their team passes by. I can't count the number of times since release I've seen good comms sit around with 100 energy in their obs because they're not used to even thinking about it. Second, marines need to stop being so complacent with their ability to face off against one or two skulks by themselves; ramboing has got to go if marines are going to be successful. Concentrated fire is a huge advantage for marines. The marine team was always supposed to be about coordination and teamwork, and even if they're a little underpowered, I for one am glad that some initiative is being taken to finally make them that way.
It's been a while since real teamwork has been neccessary on the Marine side of the game; it will take time for the Marines to adjust... and possibly even more for Commanders to remember the forgotten (or never learned) 1.0x skills of actually managing the team, rather than being an eye-in-the-sky building and health dropper. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For the longest time now, but especially in 3.0's beta, marines had known that they only needed a low level of teamwork to compete with aliens, and so they never bothered to try for more. They realized that marines could run around the map alone or in pairs and easily prevail against the weak, early-game-DMS skulks. Thus, ramboing was born; a "strategy" that maximized map coverage while taking advantage of the inherent weakness of early game aliens.
Then came 3.0 Final. The various improvements to upgrades made skulks a much more potent force in the early game, even with DMS. Suddenly, rambo marines started to get owned by cloaking/focus and silence/celerity skulks. After repeatedly failing to out-rambo the new and improved alien team, many marines became frustrated and immediately concluded that aliens had become overpowered. It should be obvious to anyone that in the short amount of time since release, they could not possibly have explored all their options to counter the changes. More importantly though, even if the comm has a really brilliant strategy and tries to execute it, such things have not yet come into mainstream thinking for marines, and most of them still cling stubbornly to the rambo style of old. Even if they try to follow the comm's plan, their execution is poor because they aren't yet familiar with it. How do you think it is that most marines in 1.0 learned that JP/HMG was king, and all aliens agreed only to use DMS? Even if you think you've thought of every strategy, it takes time for more marine players to become familiar with them.
I think the "problem" is twofold. First, there are a number of direct counters that many marines do not properly utilize; probably the biggest one is that almost no comms in 3.0F think to take advantage of the cheaper scanner sweeps to ping the map for cloakers as their team passes by. I can't count the number of times since release I've seen good comms sit around with 100 energy in their obs because they're not used to even thinking about it. Second, marines need to stop being so complacent with their ability to face off against one or two skulks by themselves; ramboing has got to go if marines are going to be successful. Concentrated fire is a huge advantage for marines. The marine team was always supposed to be about coordination and teamwork, and even if they're a little underpowered, I for one am glad that some initiative is being taken to finally make them that way. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for the truth!
But commanding is sure as hell fun now. Its all a micromanagement rush, very, very fun indeed. Having two observitorys on standby as your squad with asorted weapons moves towards a hive is great. Pinging nearby corridors and seeings whats in front of them, "Alright guys.. its just one fade, a lerk and theres a skulk in the vent. Watch your backs comming in.. go." Best game I've ever played.
With the alien buffs commanding has gotten where it needs to be, one with the team again, and something that marines <i>must</i> rely on in order to survive.
I agree with what others said in this thread, once rines figure out their new strats and adapt they will do better.