3.0 "final"

Grendel · March 2005

<div class="IPBDescription">Thoughts from the allegedly competent</div> I have little interest in reading what Joe Nub thinks about the new gameplay. However, I'm mildly curious as to what skilled players think of it.

Personal thoughts? 3.0 forces the Frontiermen to work together and now gives them more incentive to hunt down and destroy upgrade chambers as well as resource nodes. Frontiersmen must now work to <b>minimise casualties</b> as well as controlling resources and territory. It also places much more emphasis on the role of the Commander as they need to be much more flexible in combating a greater diversity of kharaa strategems.

Thoughts to ponder:

Celerity skulks are more powerful than can be considered reasonable, as much due to hitbox inaccuracies as anything else. Now that skulks aren't such cannon-fodder, should this be a time where we consider the demise of bunny-hopping?

Sieges could stand a reduction in cost.

With the kharaa game now relying less on uberfades to carry the day, is it perhaps worth considering reducing the fade's potency slightly? Perhaps by increasing blink energy cost, or by requiring a minimum amount of energy (25% for example) to engage blink? Maybe even just trim a few points of armour off them (which might make Carapace all the more tempting). I know such suggestions will probably make Mustang cry, but some of us mere mortals don't necessarily enjoy acting as his supporting cast. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

Post away.

Incidentally, if anyone has any 3.0 Final scrim demos to post, please do.

DuoGodOfDeath · March 2005

Considering I only scrimmed once with B6 against Terror on Hera. We both had alien ties. Its a lot harder for Marines now to win mainly because skulks actually got a pretty big boost with free upgrades. Not having to worry spending 2 res and dieing the instant you finish gestating. So as you said Marines have no choice now to start really playing as a team and stop running off on their own.

And about the fade. Well in pubs its needed gigantically still because well 95% of the pubbers couldn't hit a Marine in a corner not moving. So i'll say it right now. You touch the Fade, you minus one point of his armor and i'll go to your house and get a condensed aircan and spray your eye balls until they freeze >.<

Thank you and have a nice day!

comrade · March 2005

My first thoughts on 3.0 are:

What the hell is wrong with the shotgun?

When I fade with celerity I can't be touched, hardly even by HMG.

NGE · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Personal thoughts? 3.0 forces the Frontiermen to work together and now gives them more incentive to hunt down and destroy upgrade chambers as well as resource nodes. Frontiersmen must now work to minimise casualties as well as controlling resources and territory. It also places much more emphasis on the role of the Commander as they need to be much more flexible in combating a greater diversity of kharaa strategems.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

They always had to work together.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Celerity skulks are more powerful than can be considered reasonable, as much due to hitbox inaccuracies as anything else. Now that skulks aren't such cannon-fodder, should this be a time where we consider the demise of bunny-hopping?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I would say fix the bugs over changing gameplay to adapt around bugs is a better idea.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sieges could stand a reduction in cost.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Or make them dmg aliens again.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>With the kharaa game now relying less on uberfades to carry the day, is it perhaps worth considering reducing the fade's potency slightly? Perhaps by increasing blink energy cost, or by requiring a minimum amount of energy (25% for example) to engage blink? Maybe even just trim a few points of armour off them (which might make Carapace all the more tempting). I know such suggestions will probably make Mustang cry, but some of us mere mortals don't necessarily enjoy acting as his supporting cast. wink-fix.gif </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

There is no reason to nerf the fade, unless you want to make it less fun for people who are trying to learn how to play with it.

Overall b6 is alien baised. Reminds me of 2.00.

kavasa · March 2005

Well, since I didn't really do any of the const. testing (servers sucked), I've only been playing since it officially came out. And so I don't really have an opinion yet. Solly.

xtremecore · March 2005

the only thing i've noticed is that it takes more shotgun blasts to cripple a fade into reteating, he seems to be able to stick around a little bit longer. Also.. in a co server, i saw a skulk get through 6 marines with hmg's! i was like WTH? I know the changelog proclaimed it reverted back to b5 hitboxes, but it does not seem so. Something was changed if the "edges" of lifeforms can be hit and you can't shoot through an onos's leggies.

airyK · March 2005

Did they make some gamma adjustments somehow? because even with crazy brightness settings in my userconfig i cannot get a playable gamma at all anymore. Its pretty bad considering my monitor is very dark- i need to use powerstrip or whatever to even play now. Also what were you guys thinking when you changed co_daimos? the map is completely black outside of ms and the hall - fps flucuates like mad its not even playable anymore. The old daimos was a little bit bigger, i could see things and the only fps issues were in the underground tunnels, which were easy to avoid. All that i can say is wth?

DrFurious · March 2005

It's going to be hard to determine if the version is balanced considering we're playing hera in CAL this week. Maybe the euros can better comment immediately. The one thing I'm somewhat concerned about is that the jetpacks seem easier to take down with all the upgraded skulks.

Gerald_R_Ford · March 2005

I feel that this thread is about 3 weeks too early. While initial measurements are wanted, none will be usefull because everyone will still be useing beta5 tacitcs or just starting a new strategy for 3.0. Yes you can say that aliens seem over powered, because everyone was used to ramboing and killing every skulk they see. In several weeks, and after CAL finals, people will be able to tell you what they think with more accuracy.

Phanneh · March 2005

The lerk is where it should be, as a support unit. And the hitboxes seem a little sketchy, they feel like beta4 hitboxes rather than beta5. Sieges not attacking players can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on whom you talk to, if the sieges attacked players, then there needs to be a little tweaking how it attacks. It should only hurt aliens directly near the structures being attack, maybe a 100 pixel radius. My personal opinion though. Thats all I really have to say about this version so far, because I haven't played it throughly to get any good data.

comrade · March 2005

The main problem with skulks being more powerful early game is that the aliens still get the same amount of resources and therefore get to their midgame at the same speed as b5, while the marines are slowed down. The alien's midgame is too powerful, too soon.

fanatic · March 2005

Marine tactics need time to evolve before we start blabbering. Give it a week, preferably two. Then we might have quality feedback.

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>By "we" I'm referring to those of us who don't jump to conclusions faster than super fast noodles finish (they're super fast I tell you!).</span>

GoDlol · March 2005

I have yet to see a marine team beat sensory on hera

Jmmsbnd007 · March 2005

I have <i>severe</i> reg issues with the shotgun against pub skulks in 3.0F. Maybe it's the server, but it's definitely not me (I got demos d00ds).

Anderval · March 2005

obviously so soon after release noone can comment accurately on balance yet but here are a few observations.

either due to the lag being experienced on most servers or to some unknown hitbox bugs reg can seem very dodgy at times.

cloaking just isnt fun to play against, it never has been and never will be

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Fighting an enemy you can’t even see creates frustration and anger, not atmosphere, and least of all fun. Cloaking changes the game from aim and shoot to either, squinting your eyes, hoping that you’ll even find a skulk model to aim for, or craving for the commander to perform a scanner-sweep. I would be playing Magic Eye and Where’s Waldo if I wanted to play a game in which concentrating on the screen is considered a skill. This leaves scanner-sweep and the observatory as the only counters to cloaking.
This really creates a problem in a public server as the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent. Although team-work can be a fun part of the game, this kind of reliance affects the player’s potential for fun. I would rather die of my lack of aim and skill, than due to my inability to squint my eyes enough or the commander’s lack of skill. As I see no clear solutions to this problem (short of combat style scanner-sweep) there really should not be a place reserved for a skill like cloaking.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

this pretty much sums it up for me

also: pub crack hopping celerity skulks drive me insane

Deimosik · March 2005

The changes are good, imo. The reason everyone is seeing lots of aliens ties is because hera is so alien biased. Since it's the cal map for this week, everyone is going to be crying about how aliens are overpowered. Once we get to a more balanced map, there should be less alien dominating games.

Suggestions :

-Fix stuck points outside vent hive on hera asap =/
-Allow aliens to change upgrades once they've already got one.
-Make seiges do more damage, it's pretty hard to seige now with a gorge healing.

El_Pollo_Loco · March 2005

Fades a little too godly again. With alien upgrades being free now aliens should be able to be a little less dependent on fades.

Flounder · March 2005

As far as balance is concerned it's definitely too early to tell.

But cloaking has become annoying. Maybe making them decloak while running again, or nix it, or make sc chambers cloak you but don't provide it as an upgrade. But as it stands, it's no fun.

GoDlol · March 2005

I am having huge troubles with choke in marine starts on several maps, especially hera, i have to lower my updaterate to around 10-15 to get no choke. I have tried several different sets of rates, but right now i am at rate 18000, cl_updaterate 10, cl_cmdrate 60

lynXij · March 2005

Theirs this shotgun bug that's really annoying when you command and a marine fired a shotgun... I can't really describe it well or consistently reproduce it. But it's a constant "shooting-reload" sound effect that gets really annoying.

Also, the shotgun "fallout" dmg after 500 units is ****. It's just a cut-off at a certain distance, each pellet does the same dmg regardless of distance.

TOmekki · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Mar 8 2005, 08:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> obviously so soon after release noone can comment accurately on balance yet but here are a few observations.

either due to the lag being experienced on most servers or to some unknown hitbox bugs reg can seem very dodgy at times.

cloaking just isnt fun to play against, it never has been and never will be

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Fighting an enemy you can’t even see creates frustration and anger, not atmosphere, and least of all fun. Cloaking changes the game from aim and shoot to either, squinting your eyes, hoping that you’ll even find a skulk model to aim for, or craving for the commander to perform a scanner-sweep. I would be playing Magic Eye and Where’s Waldo if I wanted to play a game in which concentrating on the screen is considered a skill. This leaves scanner-sweep and the observatory as the only counters to cloaking.
This really creates a problem in a public server as the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent. Although team-work can be a fun part of the game, this kind of reliance affects the player’s potential for fun. I would rather die of my lack of aim and skill, than due to my inability to squint my eyes enough or the commander’s lack of skill. As I see no clear solutions to this problem (short of combat style scanner-sweep) there really should not be a place reserved for a skill like cloaking.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

this pretty much sums it up for me

also: pub crack hopping celerity skulks drive me insane  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
^ truth.

Tempo · March 2005

I'm enjoying it a lot. It has revived the Australian/New Zealand clan scene (for the moment at least) and there is a DE tournament starting this week. Keep an eye on AusNS.com for the details (HLTV etc).

I think the changes are good for the clan scene. The comm has to adapt a lot more and marines have to work together (even more so). If you rambo you will get cut down. However, I can see pubs getting dominated by aliens for these reasons. I am secretly hoping that this will encourage pub players to adapt, communicate and work together. Over time this may see marines improving although that's really up to the players.

I can't really comment on hitbox/reg concerns because no matter where I play I'm always above 120 ping <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

Cerebral · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Mar 9 2005, 07:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Mar 8 2005, 08:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> obviously so soon after release noone can comment accurately on balance yet but here are a few observations.

either due to the lag being experienced on most servers or to some unknown hitbox bugs reg can seem very dodgy at times.

cloaking just isnt fun to play against, it never has been and never will be

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Fighting an enemy you can’t even see creates frustration and anger, not atmosphere, and least of all fun. Cloaking changes the game from aim and shoot to either, squinting your eyes, hoping that you’ll even find a skulk model to aim for, or craving for the commander to perform a scanner-sweep. I would be playing Magic Eye and Where’s Waldo if I wanted to play a game in which concentrating on the screen is considered a skill. This leaves scanner-sweep and the observatory as the only counters to cloaking.
This really creates a problem in a public server as the marine player is forced to entirely rely on the commander, who is usually unskilled and incompetent. Although team-work can be a fun part of the game, this kind of reliance affects the player’s potential for fun. I would rather die of my lack of aim and skill, than due to my inability to squint my eyes enough or the commander’s lack of skill. As I see no clear solutions to this problem (short of combat style scanner-sweep) there really should not be a place reserved for a skill like cloaking.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

this pretty much sums it up for me

also: pub crack hopping celerity skulks drive me insane </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
^ truth. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I'm going to have to agree with this general line of reasoning. I tend to play res **** in scrims/matches and I cannot fully describe how insanely frustrating it is to get taken down by a focus skulk in range of some random sc three walls away from you that you can't even get to. There honestly is not a damn thing you can do about it as it stands right now. I suppose we're going to have to send marines out holding hands to gather a RT or two. (mind you this would be countered by 2 cloaked focus skulks)

QwertyMcDunkin · March 2005

I don't see cloaking being a big issue as people realize that it isn't very hard for marines to counter. I've seen plenty of games where aliens went cloaking first and marines just walked all over them by rushing a proto and armor 1 and not pushing too far into the aliens' hive area without securing the other two hive locations first. Sensory chambers first brings a new type of game to the table that people just haven't gotten used to, and that fact that people start complaining about cloaked skulks with focus now more than before is interesting, considering they could always do it anyways. As far as the shotgun goes, it has some issues that need to be worked out. It just feels like its not a very dependable weapon anymore.

Cerebral · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (QwertyMcDunkin @ Mar 9 2005, 10:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I don't see cloaking being a big issue as people realize that it isn't very hard for marines to counter. I've seen plenty of games where aliens went cloaking first and marines just walked all over them by rushing a proto and armor 1 and not pushing too far into the aliens' hive area without securing the other two hive locations first. Sensory chambers first brings a new type of game to the table that people just haven't gotten used to, and that fact that people start complaining about cloaked skulks with focus now more than before is interesting, considering they could always do it anyways. As far as the shotgun goes, it has some issues that need to be worked out. It just feels like its not a very dependable weapon anymore.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
in the past, every alien on the map wasn't aletered to your presence when you were in range of a random SC...

Router_Box · March 2005

Guys, I really think that everyone saying that adaption is needed might be on to something. Its frustrating cause sc's are owning everything right now. There are however solid ways to beat it, you just have to find them. The most important change is that you need to know asap what chambers they have. If its 1:30-2:00 into the game and you don't know what chambers they are droping, you're not doing something right.

Edit: that post was blind optimism, ignore it.

MrGunner · March 2005

Don't listen to milo he's just bitter because all he can do is pancake <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /> With hitboxes working the way they are, sof on chambers, and innate regen, lerks are awesome in 3.0

RAWR <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' />

digz · March 2005

Id just like to see more bug fixes in the next build, and not a damn balance change. Sorry devs, but in past balance issues for compinsating for game bugs is starting to come up and bite NS gameplay in the ****. Id rather it be unbalanced for the next few patches while they fix the code.

El_Pollo_Loco · March 2005

ok I might get flamed for saying this but has anyone thought that focus and silence should be swapped. I know silence plus a sense chamber would be a pain but IMO it would be alot better than FOCUS clocking at hive1. It would also give movement a needed boost. Lastly, silence is more of a "sensory" trait anyways.

I dunno if it would work for sure. All I know is that its just frustrating trying to keep pinging the entire map with an obs while upgrading armor and welding to stop 1 hit focus skulks.

QwertyMcDunkin · March 2005

From every game I've played where sensory gets dropped first, if the commander doesn't go for hive control its not going to matter what he does because when the second hive comes hes going to lose hard. Also, commanders that get jetpacks when aliens have sensory chambers need to stop, its a waste of res considering they get raped by anything with focus.

amnesiac · March 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (comrade @ Mar 8 2005, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The main problem with skulks being more powerful early game is that the aliens still get the same amount of resources and therefore get to their midgame at the same speed as b5, while the marines are slowed down. The alien's midgame is too powerful, too soon.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I agree. the "midpoint" for aliens has gone from 4-6 minutes to 3-5 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /> or even in some cases earlier. Where as the marines get to thier "midpoint" or tier2 game at around the same time as b5 (5-7) or later 6-?

3.0 "final"

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