Yeah MMO developers don't understand yet that everyone hates PvE. The only fun part of MMORPGs is PvP (which is awesome). It just sucks that you have to carebear (PvE) for so long to PvP.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 8 2005, 06:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 8 2005, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah MMO developers don't understand yet that everyone hates PvE. The only fun part of MMORPGs is PvP (which is awesome). It just sucks that you have to carebear (PvE) for so long to PvP. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true, I rather enjoy questing, if I wanted PvP, I'd play Quake 3 or similar, then I get some real Player vs Player action!
I just want a world of epic adventure with interesting stories that my character can develop in along with the chars of my friends. I was an experience you could write a book about...
"L337D00D the level 35 beserker thrust his sword of juicing +3 into the level 23 Green Dragons head (that only conned green) causing 23 points of damage" is not adventure, exciting... infact it's not even really all that interesting :p
I think seeing all these numbers would make Tolkien weep XD
I could play an MMO zelda for years as long as it kept expanding :3
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
Geminosity Wow i just had a flash of something like orcarina of time go through my head and it was beautiful. We definitly need something more like that.
I think what's really going on is that we are trying to create an entirely new genre. The MMO would remain, but the RPG would have to evolve.
For those of us believing in evolution, we know this takes a long time. ----------- Tracking statistical character data gets old fast. We all know this, but to replace it? What? Player invented duties and roles never last, anyone who has ever tried to Roleplay in a game not designed for roleplaying will know of this.
Like when I used to play on RolePlay Action Halflife servers, it ranged from mindblowingly fun to incredibly, unbelievably, UBIQUITIOUSLY boring.
The only real formula was who was playing that night, and what kind of chemistry that combination of people had. The bad combination of people did inane things like each trying to do their own thing, with people who traveled around experiencing each person's roleplay, which would eventually devolve into a mindless bloodfest as some disgruntled player who was not getting enough attention from said travelers would, out of jealousy, "roleplay" an ACTION Movie Hero, dive through the glass of my Hamburger Restaraunt while simultaneously gunning down my waiters, my clerk, and all of my patrons. I would pop out of my kitchen with my sawed off and blast him/her to hell. The game lost all semblance of RP then. Why? Because roleplay is an unstable system that depends entirely on the stability of the people who use it. Bad. Idea.
The good combination of people came together, wrote out a great script where information was given on a need to know basis, so that we wouldn't know everything from the beginning and allowed for people to play their role according to their own style. It didn't always work, but when it did, man was it great. Those people also completely accepted their deaths, so there was never any respawn abuse. People who respawned would just go on to the next prepared story.
So without the silly stories of bygone days, what am I trying to say? I am trying to say that our current RPG system is an OPIATE. One that gamemakers created first in the name of innovation and now use as a soma.
Without it, we need something else. Without something else to take it's place, all we can do is sit back down, and keep taking our rpg placebo.
<!--QuoteBegin-Geminosity+Mar 9 2005, 05:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Mar 9 2005, 05:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just want a world of epic adventure with interesting stories that my character can develop in along with the chars of my friends. I was an experience you could write a book about... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That sounds like Guild Wars :/
And you do realize it's impossible to make "a MMO that keeps expanding", right? It's like asking an author to write as fast as you can read... it'd be awesome, but it isn't going to happen. Unless we invent some way to put ideas straight on the 'puter, and some way to give people money through sheer will.
EDIT: Planetside can be great. Most of the time it is really goddamn annoying though. Being kept inside the base while the enemy has free access to your generator(which, when disabled, stops your spawn tubes and resupply terminals from working) is one of those moments. And Orbital strikes are just exasperating. Let's not forget the empire-specific weaponry. Each side get's **** by the others used in their correct situations(except for the NC phoenix which doesn't have a "correct situation", it can be used anytime and noone can hit you! BALANCED++).
<!--QuoteBegin-Surge+Mar 9 2005, 05:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Surge @ Mar 9 2005, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh God, is this another Korean MMOG? It looks like one so far... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Any thing with .my at the end is malaysian
Guild wars is so amazing far from what I meant you might as well have said 'space invaders' or frigging 'diablo' align ><
A pointy, clicky thing that doesn't even qualify for 'MMO' with a levelling system is most definitely not what I was talking about.
I'm talking about a game where you actually control your char as they go on adventures and feats that don't just push up some silly numbers. Like I said I want something you could write a book about. I don't recall the bit in Lord of the Rings where gandalf waited outside the 'fellowship of the ring' mission instance to get a group.
As for a game that constantly expands you need to mix it up for it to happen. Sure you can still add things that are written by the games devs but you need the system itself to be dynamic enough to create it's own adventures. By that I don't mean some 'self-scripting' nonsense but I mean a world that has enough interaction with the players to allow them to stumble across their own adventures.
A perfect example is if someone went and killed all the cows the dragon in the area that feeds on them is suddenly without it's food source and moves to the next nearest one... which is unfortunately a bustling village <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-CplDavis+Mar 8 2005, 09:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CplDavis @ Mar 8 2005, 09:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Face of Mankind <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> DON'T SAY IT'S NAME!
We were taken in by it once, but no longer. Now, that name goes in with the likes of RUNESCAPE.
Triple Edit:As for a game in which you advance your character in manners other than silly stats, I can't recomend any one other than Half Life 2 Deathmatch.
I just had a sudden idea. Hear me out on this one.
You guys were talking about a game that continously expands. The limiter here is that the game devs can't keep up with that sort of pacing...
So how about... a <i>wiki mmorpg?</i> Before you get confused take a look at <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page' target='_blank'>Wikipedia, the worlds fastest growing online Encyclopedia.</a> Why is it so successful? Because all it's articles are written by the people who use it, and the developers simply sit back and make sure that no low quality or **** entries into the encyclopedia are made.
The system is REALLY effective; in the same way that Bittorrent puts the bulk of the download work on the users who are downloading, a wiki something puts the bulk of the work on those users who want to have new material. They add on to the world, the admins run quality control, and everyone's happy. Hell loads of people love to map for fps games, this wouldn't be all that different.
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
an ideal situation cold-nite, but the logistics of it, how the hell would you go about.. oh, you know that game i think it's called "Real Life" ? doesn't it allow user-made things to be uploaded to the world? i suppose the wikirpg could work something similar.. i don't know. it would be amazingly excellent if it worked.
<!--QuoteBegin-NeonSpyder+Mar 9 2005, 09:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NeonSpyder @ Mar 9 2005, 09:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> an ideal situation cold-nite, but the logistics of it, how the hell would you go about.. oh, you know that game i think it's called "Real Life" ? doesn't it allow user-made things to be uploaded to the world? i suppose the wikirpg could work something similar.. i don't know. it would be amazingly excellent if it worked. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're thinking of <a href='http://pc.ign.com/articles/392/392936p1.html?fromint=1' target='_blank'>Second Life</a>, the MMO game where you define <i>everything</i>. The idea of Second Life is that there are no goals what so ever and that your creativity is what runs the game. Second Life makes it's money not by monthly fees, because I don't believe there are any, but by how much land you rent out from them digitally, to make your home where you design whatever you want.
Let me just say that while that game is fantastic, leaving EVERYTHING up to the players, as I was saying earlier, can also be a huge mistake. If a wikimmorpg is ever created, it would have to have a centralized theme, and an overarching story and universe, so that people would create more within the realm of an already existing work. This would prevent high levels of randomosity and give people a backbone to work under.
I just wonder if it could be executed correctly. It still leans heavily on the player base.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Makes you wonder who is playing it.
There's often a difference between a good idea and a good idea badly implemented ^~
<b>edit:</b> character advancement without silly stats chimpy? I already mentioned zelda. Throw in the likes of super metroid, megaman heck even resident evil and half-life 2 to some degree :3 Sure none of them are MMO but they don't involve getting a calculator out to study your 'stats' or 'skills', you never have to look at a 'character screen' and killing faceless monsters all day won't get you any further which I think should be a part of any RPG.
Megaman can't sit about all day killing those walking helmets; he has to go nail a boss via completing the level to get more advanced <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
My point is that FoM Was a good idea, however I can't think of any realy reliable way of implementing it (Aside from having the GMs run a good portion of the plot so there is sometihng good going on all the time)
<!--QuoteBegin-Geminosity+Mar 10 2005, 12:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Mar 10 2005, 12:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm talking about a game where you actually control your char as they go on adventures and feats that don't just push up some silly numbers. Like I said I want something you could write a book about. I don't recall the bit in Lord of the Rings where gandalf waited outside the 'fellowship of the ring' mission instance to get a group. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, I see. I thought you meant, "had an involving story" period, not "had an involving story and no RPG elements except for items".
Cold-nite's idea sounds good to me, though it sounds a bit like the customizing community for most games... I'm sure there's no real need to elaborate on that.
EDIT: Looking a bit further; Gem, you don't want a RPG. You want more adventure games!
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 10 2005, 08:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 10 2005, 08:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cold-nite's idea sounds good to me, though it sounds a bit like the customizing community for most games... I'm sure there's no real need to elaborate on that.! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Understandably so, since it's true motive is to delegate a healthy percentage of continuation of the game world down onto people who enjoy making modifications of games and so on. The parts of the game world that are frequented the most will be the well designed ones, and players who are self-styled developers would know what works and what doesn't. Unused, poorly made areas can easily be removed.
But consider this, MMORPGs don't really allow customization to the extent that say Half-Life or Quake did. Most forms of customization come in the illegal vein of things. Creating an MMORPG that allow for a customizing community at all could be quite successful, given that there exist at least a few players whose ideas on level design are solid. Also it increases the likelihood of innovation in that setting.
If possible the entire medieval era stereotype that most rpg games seem to have can be abandoned for newer stomping grounds, such as <a href='http://xbox.gamespy.com/xbox/jade-empire/557656p1.html' target='_blank'>Jade Empire's</a> jump as an rpg to Mythical China. If Bioware, one of the best RPG making companies in existence feels that it's about time to start working on some new settings, even though they would still profit heavily by using their cash cows; the Star Wars universe and the Forgotten Realms universe, then perhaps they are on to something.
Align... you confuse a bunch of bad game mechanics for RPG. If we were aiming for real RPG it'd be about character development... y'know developing the CHARACTER <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Unfortunately it'd take a lot of thought and design to really do that in a world where you want the player to define the character for themselves.
Things that count as character development are things like self-discovery, uncovering the past and new elements that change your character's life. Even things like battle scars or losing a limb are part of true character development :3
I don't care what twisted meaning the letter R.P.G. have come to stand for because all I care about is what they originally stood for: a game with roleplaying in it. Not stats and maths, roleplaying. It's just a shame that most people can't tell the difference anymore -.-
CN, I was thinking more of how killbox is played more than most other custom maps, even though it looks like ****. But, and I forgot that part in my previous post, you mentioned that it would be like wikipedia in that the creators review the content before letting it into the game. So, many problems, arising from bad design and people who think they are really good at making stuff even though they aren't, suddenly evaporate.
Gem, you remind me of a south park halloween episode... Part of it anyway. Some dude makes a short speech on how halloween isn't about costumes and candy, but rather giving and being nice(and stuff). "No dude, that's Christmas" "Oh right... so what's halloween about?" "Costumes and candy." "Oh..."
It doesn't really matter if RPGs were ever what you describe, though I'd like to know what game it is that you played, because what they are about nowadays is simply progressing through the story while making sure you've got the stats to take on the next challenge.
Take away the stats, and you just have a FPS... except there's not necessarily any shooting, and it's probably not first-person. The character development you describe is indeed what you get in most books(good thing), but do you realize how incredibly linear it would have to be if you wanted the game to actually have a chance to develop(money+publisher pressure)? It's not going to happen unless some publisher goes wrong in the head and decides that making money is evil...
How would you pass the time without the battles that give you exp? And without the exp stuff(bad mechanic), it's just a random battle that you can't really lose(since theres nothing you can do manually to get stronger). Unless you set up some stupid system where you have to get X item to succeed in winning B encounter.
Actually, now that I think about it, you would get pretty close to what you're suggesting if you removed the levelling up stuff from Fire Emblem. Though there were no battle scars, or permanent damage(unless a character died. Gone for good.) Wish I still had that game... never finished it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Mar 10 2005, 01:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Mar 10 2005, 01:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So how about... a <i>wiki mmorpg?</i> Before you get confused take a look at <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page' target='_blank'>Wikipedia, the worlds fastest growing online Encyclopedia.</a> Why is it so successful? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh, funny. IIRC, I believe Wikipedia has about 6 times as many daily visitors as Slashdot.org (which has about 1 billion a day).
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 10 2005, 03:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 10 2005, 03:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->CN, I was thinking more of how killbox is played more than most other custom maps, even though it looks like ****. But, and I forgot that part in my previous post, you mentioned that it would be like wikipedia in that the creators review the content before letting it into the game. So, many problems, arising from bad design and people who think they are really good at making stuff even though they aren't, suddenly evaporate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. The idea being, that if the player turn developer's work passes with flying colours, others will take notice of the work and try to keep tot he same standards. A wikirpg could only work if people moderate it, because as I said in my anecdote a page ago, if you leave everything to base human nature, eventually the entire thing will devolve, no matter how orderly your samurai themed Action Halflife hamburger restaraunt is.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 10 2005, 03:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 10 2005, 03:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It doesn't really matter if RPGs were ever what you describe, though I'd like to know what game it is that you played, because what they are about nowadays is simply progressing through the story while making sure you've got the stats to take on the next challenge.
Take away the stats, and you just have a FPS... except there's not necessarily any shooting, and it's probably not first-person. The character development you describe is indeed what you get in most books(good thing), but do you realize how incredibly linear it would have to be if you wanted the game to actually have a chance to develop(money+publisher pressure)? It's not going to happen unless some publisher goes wrong in the head and decides that making money is evil...
How would you pass the time without the battles that give you exp? And without the exp stuff(bad mechanic), it's just a random battle that you can't really lose(since theres nothing you can do manually to get stronger). Unless you set up some stupid system where you have to get X item to succeed in winning B encounter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My understanding is, that if you have a realtime battle situation, but you set it up so that your ability to kill enemies relies on your skill and your ability to use what moves and weapons you have, then you could instead of having experience points and levels, simply make it that as you fight, your character "learns" but rather than a statistical system, it simply makes it easier for you to move around and fight in an almost choreographed manner. Think on it; you could simulate an actual battle with a battle system kinda like what <a href='http://www.princeofpersiagame.com/us/agegate.php?destURL=index.php' target='_blank'>Prince of Persia: Warriors Within</a> was supposed to be, but in the beginning, you can't perform nearly the amount of moves that you can after enough fights. On top of that, as you get better at controling your character during fights, you will increase that way as well.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 10 2005, 03:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 10 2005, 03:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, now that I think about it, you would get pretty close to what you're suggesting if you removed the levelling up stuff from Fire Emblem. Though there were no battle scars, or permanent damage(unless a character died. Gone for good.) Wish I still had that game... never finished it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know how you feel man, I never got to finish that game either, on the GBA, I was borrowing it. Loved it a lot though, great storytelling. But I get the feeling that the original idea was that you design a character in an MMO setting and you basically live a life with it, and whatever happens to you, stays with you, depending on the happening. Say you get mauled by a bear, you could get a giant scar across your chest, assuming you survived.
<!--QuoteBegin-Surge+Mar 10 2005, 05:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Surge @ Mar 10 2005, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Mar 10 2005, 01:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Mar 10 2005, 01:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So how about... a <i>wiki mmorpg?</i> Before you get confused take a look at <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page' target='_blank'>Wikipedia, the worlds fastest growing online Encyclopedia.</a> Why is it so successful? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh, funny. IIRC, I believe Wikipedia has about 6 times as many daily visitors as Slashdot.org (which has about 1 billion a day).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny you say that. <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang' target='_blank'>This Wikipedia Entry alone makes it useful to a lot of people on the internet.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Mar 10 2005, 11:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Mar 10 2005, 11:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My understanding is, that if you have a realtime battle situation, but you set it up so that your ability to kill enemies relies on your skill and your ability to use what moves and weapons you have, then you could instead of having experience points and levels, simply make it that as you fight, your character "learns" but rather than a statistical system, it simply makes it easier for you to move around and fight in an almost choreographed manner. Think on it; you could simulate an actual battle with a battle system kinda like what <a href='http://www.princeofpersiagame.com/us/agegate.php?destURL=index.php' target='_blank'>Prince of Persia: Warriors Within</a> was supposed to be, but in the beginning, you can't perform nearly the amount of moves that you can after enough fights. On top of that, as you get better at controling your character during fights, you will increase that way as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dangerously close to levelling up there... But sure, I heard warrior within was actually quite good in the end(as opposed to solid gold like the first), so I'm sure the fighting system wasn't a totally bad idea.
HAHA. The only RPG I can think of that actually had roleplaying are tabletop RPG's. Like D&D. D&D had stats, and experience. These were to help roleplaying, and show your characters phsyical progress. They still are. Most RPG's today don't even have stats and don't require the thought of making a good build.
Comments
Not true, I rather enjoy questing, if I wanted PvP, I'd play Quake 3 or similar, then I get some real Player vs Player action!
"L337D00D the level 35 beserker thrust his sword of juicing +3 into the level 23 Green Dragons head (that only conned green) causing 23 points of damage" is not adventure, exciting... infact it's not even really all that interesting :p
I think seeing all these numbers would make Tolkien weep XD
I could play an MMO zelda for years as long as it kept expanding :3
For those of us believing in evolution, we know this takes a long time.
-----------
Tracking statistical character data gets old fast. We all know this, but to replace it? What? Player invented duties and roles never last, anyone who has ever tried to Roleplay in a game not designed for roleplaying will know of this.
<span style='color:red'>[WARNING OPTIONAL EXTRANEOUS ANECDOTE]</span>
Like when I used to play on RolePlay Action Halflife servers, it ranged from mindblowingly fun to incredibly, unbelievably, UBIQUITIOUSLY boring.
The only real formula was who was playing that night, and what kind of chemistry that combination of people had. The bad combination of people did inane things like each trying to do their own thing, with people who traveled around experiencing each person's roleplay, which would eventually devolve into a mindless bloodfest as some disgruntled player who was not getting enough attention from said travelers would, out of jealousy, "roleplay" an ACTION Movie Hero, dive through the glass of my Hamburger Restaraunt while simultaneously gunning down my waiters, my clerk, and all of my patrons. I would pop out of my kitchen with my sawed off and blast him/her to hell. The game lost all semblance of RP then. Why? Because roleplay is an unstable system that depends entirely on the stability of the people who use it. Bad. Idea.
The good combination of people came together, wrote out a great script where information was given on a need to know basis, so that we wouldn't know everything from the beginning and allowed for people to play their role according to their own style. It didn't always work, but when it did, man was it great. Those people also completely accepted their deaths, so there was never any respawn abuse. People who respawned would just go on to the next prepared story.
<span style='color:red'>[/OPTIONAL EXTRANEOUS ANECDOTE]</span>
So without the silly stories of bygone days, what am I trying to say? I am trying to say that our current RPG system is an OPIATE. One that gamemakers created first in the name of innovation and now use as a soma.
Without it, we need something else. Without something else to take it's place, all we can do is sit back down, and keep taking our rpg placebo.
That sounds like Guild Wars :/
And you do realize it's impossible to make "a MMO that keeps expanding", right? It's like asking an author to write as fast as you can read... it'd be awesome, but it isn't going to happen. Unless we invent some way to put ideas straight on the 'puter, and some way to give people money through sheer will.
EDIT: Planetside can be great. Most of the time it is really goddamn annoying though. Being kept inside the base while the enemy has free access to your generator(which, when disabled, stops your spawn tubes and resupply terminals from working) is one of those moments. And Orbital strikes are just exasperating. Let's not forget the empire-specific weaponry. Each side get's **** by the others used in their correct situations(except for the NC phoenix which doesn't have a "correct situation", it can be used anytime and noone can hit you! BALANCED++).
Any thing with .my at the end is malaysian
A pointy, clicky thing that doesn't even qualify for 'MMO' with a levelling system is most definitely not what I was talking about.
I'm talking about a game where you actually control your char as they go on adventures and feats that don't just push up some silly numbers. Like I said I want something you could write a book about.
I don't recall the bit in Lord of the Rings where gandalf waited outside the 'fellowship of the ring' mission instance to get a group.
As for a game that constantly expands you need to mix it up for it to happen. Sure you can still add things that are written by the games devs but you need the system itself to be dynamic enough to create it's own adventures.
By that I don't mean some 'self-scripting' nonsense but I mean a world that has enough interaction with the players to allow them to stumble across their own adventures.
A perfect example is if someone went and killed all the cows the dragon in the area that feeds on them is suddenly without it's food source and moves to the next nearest one... which is unfortunately a bustling village <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Little things like that make huge differences ^^
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DON'T SAY IT'S NAME!
We were taken in by it once, but no longer. Now, that name goes in with the likes of RUNESCAPE.
Triple Edit:As for a game in which you advance your character in manners other than silly stats, I can't recomend any one other than Half Life 2 Deathmatch.
I'm going to start a roleplay thread now.
You guys were talking about a game that continously expands. The limiter here is that the game devs can't keep up with that sort of pacing...
So how about... a <i>wiki mmorpg?</i> Before you get confused take a look at
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page' target='_blank'>Wikipedia, the worlds fastest growing online Encyclopedia.</a> Why is it so successful? Because all it's articles are written by the people who use it, and the developers simply sit back and make sure that no low quality or **** entries into the encyclopedia are made.
The system is REALLY effective; in the same way that Bittorrent puts the bulk of the download work on the users who are downloading, a wiki something puts the bulk of the work on those users who want to have new material. They add on to the world, the admins run quality control, and everyone's happy. Hell loads of people love to map for fps games, this wouldn't be all that different.
What do you guys think?
You're thinking of <a href='http://pc.ign.com/articles/392/392936p1.html?fromint=1' target='_blank'>Second Life</a>, the MMO game where you define <i>everything</i>. The idea of Second Life is that there are no goals what so ever and that your creativity is what runs the game. Second Life makes it's money not by monthly fees, because I don't believe there are any, but by how much land you rent out from them digitally, to make your home where you design whatever you want.
Let me just say that while that game is fantastic, leaving EVERYTHING up to the players, as I was saying earlier, can also be a huge mistake. If a wikimmorpg is ever created, it would have to have a centralized theme, and an overarching story and universe, so that people would create more within the realm of an already existing work. This would prevent high levels of randomosity and give people a backbone to work under.
I just wonder if it could be executed correctly. It still leans heavily on the player base.
gota bring it up again
FoM works off of the idea of player driven.
it sucks arse.
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gota bring it up again
FoM works off of the idea of player driven.
it sucks arse.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Makes you wonder who is playing it.
<b>edit:</b> character advancement without silly stats chimpy? I already mentioned zelda. Throw in the likes of super metroid, megaman heck even resident evil and half-life 2 to some degree :3
Sure none of them are MMO but they don't involve getting a calculator out to study your 'stats' or 'skills', you never have to look at a 'character screen' and killing faceless monsters all day won't get you any further which I think should be a part of any RPG.
Megaman can't sit about all day killing those walking helmets; he has to go nail a boss via completing the level to get more advanced <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't recall the bit in Lord of the Rings where gandalf waited outside the 'fellowship of the ring' mission instance to get a group. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, I see. I thought you meant, "had an involving story" period, not "had an involving story and no RPG elements except for items".
Cold-nite's idea sounds good to me, though it sounds a bit like the customizing community for most games... I'm sure there's no real need to elaborate on that.
EDIT: Looking a bit further;
Gem, you don't want a RPG. You want more adventure games!
Understandably so, since it's true motive is to delegate a healthy percentage of continuation of the game world down onto people who enjoy making modifications of games and so on. The parts of the game world that are frequented the most will be the well designed ones, and players who are self-styled developers would know what works and what doesn't. Unused, poorly made areas can easily be removed.
But consider this, MMORPGs don't really allow customization to the extent that say Half-Life or Quake did. Most forms of customization come in the illegal vein of things. Creating an MMORPG that allow for a customizing community at all could be quite successful, given that there exist at least a few players whose ideas on level design are solid. Also it increases the likelihood of innovation in that setting.
If possible the entire medieval era stereotype that most rpg games seem to have can be abandoned for newer stomping grounds, such as <a href='http://xbox.gamespy.com/xbox/jade-empire/557656p1.html' target='_blank'>Jade Empire's</a> jump as an rpg to Mythical China. If Bioware, one of the best RPG making companies in existence feels that it's about time to start working on some new settings, even though they would still profit heavily by using their cash cows; the Star Wars universe and the Forgotten Realms universe, then perhaps they are on to something.
Unfortunately it'd take a lot of thought and design to really do that in a world where you want the player to define the character for themselves.
Things that count as character development are things like self-discovery, uncovering the past and new elements that change your character's life. Even things like battle scars or losing a limb are part of true character development :3
I don't care what twisted meaning the letter R.P.G. have come to stand for because all I care about is what they originally stood for: a game with roleplaying in it. Not stats and maths, roleplaying. It's just a shame that most people can't tell the difference anymore -.-
Gem, you remind me of a south park halloween episode... Part of it anyway. Some dude makes a short speech on how halloween isn't about costumes and candy, but rather giving and being nice(and stuff).
"No dude, that's Christmas"
"Oh right... so what's halloween about?"
"Costumes and candy."
"Oh..."
It doesn't really matter if RPGs were ever what you describe, though I'd like to know what game it is that you played, because what they are about nowadays is simply progressing through the story while making sure you've got the stats to take on the next challenge.
Take away the stats, and you just have a FPS... except there's not necessarily any shooting, and it's probably not first-person. The character development you describe is indeed what you get in most books(good thing), but do you realize how incredibly linear it would have to be if you wanted the game to actually have a chance to develop(money+publisher pressure)?
It's not going to happen unless some publisher goes wrong in the head and decides that making money is evil...
How would you pass the time without the battles that give you exp? And without the exp stuff(bad mechanic), it's just a random battle that you can't really lose(since theres nothing you can do manually to get stronger). Unless you set up some stupid system where you have to get X item to succeed in winning B encounter.
Actually, now that I think about it, you would get pretty close to what you're suggesting if you removed the levelling up stuff from Fire Emblem. Though there were no battle scars, or permanent damage(unless a character died. Gone for good.)
Wish I still had that game... never finished it.
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page' target='_blank'>Wikipedia, the worlds fastest growing online Encyclopedia.</a> Why is it so successful? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, funny. IIRC, I believe Wikipedia has about 6 times as many daily visitors as Slashdot.org (which has about 1 billion a day).
Exactly. The idea being, that if the player turn developer's work passes with flying colours, others will take notice of the work and try to keep tot he same standards. A wikirpg could only work if people moderate it, because as I said in my anecdote a page ago, if you leave everything to base human nature, eventually the entire thing will devolve, no matter how orderly your samurai themed Action Halflife hamburger restaraunt is.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 10 2005, 03:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 10 2005, 03:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It doesn't really matter if RPGs were ever what you describe, though I'd like to know what game it is that you played, because what they are about nowadays is simply progressing through the story while making sure you've got the stats to take on the next challenge.
Take away the stats, and you just have a FPS... except there's not necessarily any shooting, and it's probably not first-person. The character development you describe is indeed what you get in most books(good thing), but do you realize how incredibly linear it would have to be if you wanted the game to actually have a chance to develop(money+publisher pressure)?
It's not going to happen unless some publisher goes wrong in the head and decides that making money is evil...
How would you pass the time without the battles that give you exp? And without the exp stuff(bad mechanic), it's just a random battle that you can't really lose(since theres nothing you can do manually to get stronger). Unless you set up some stupid system where you have to get X item to succeed in winning B encounter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My understanding is, that if you have a realtime battle situation, but you set it up so that your ability to kill enemies relies on your skill and your ability to use what moves and weapons you have, then you could instead of having experience points and levels, simply make it that as you fight, your character "learns" but rather than a statistical system, it simply makes it easier for you to move around and fight in an almost choreographed manner. Think on it; you could simulate an actual battle with a battle system kinda like what <a href='http://www.princeofpersiagame.com/us/agegate.php?destURL=index.php' target='_blank'>Prince of Persia: Warriors Within</a> was supposed to be, but in the beginning, you can't perform nearly the amount of moves that you can after enough fights. On top of that, as you get better at controling your character during fights, you will increase that way as well.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 10 2005, 03:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 10 2005, 03:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, now that I think about it, you would get pretty close to what you're suggesting if you removed the levelling up stuff from Fire Emblem. Though there were no battle scars, or permanent damage(unless a character died. Gone for good.)
Wish I still had that game... never finished it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know how you feel man, I never got to finish that game either, on the GBA, I was borrowing it. Loved it a lot though, great storytelling. But I get the feeling that the original idea was that you design a character in an MMO setting and you basically live a life with it, and whatever happens to you, stays with you, depending on the happening. Say you get mauled by a bear, you could get a giant scar across your chest, assuming you survived.
<!--QuoteBegin-Surge+Mar 10 2005, 05:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Surge @ Mar 10 2005, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Mar 10 2005, 01:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Mar 10 2005, 01:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So how about... a <i>wiki mmorpg?</i> Before you get confused take a look at
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page' target='_blank'>Wikipedia, the worlds fastest growing online Encyclopedia.</a> Why is it so successful? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, funny. IIRC, I believe Wikipedia has about 6 times as many daily visitors as Slashdot.org (which has about 1 billion a day).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny you say that. <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang' target='_blank'>This Wikipedia Entry alone makes it useful to a lot of people on the internet.</a>
Dangerously close to levelling up there... But sure, I heard warrior within was actually quite good in the end(as opposed to solid gold like the first), so I'm sure the fighting system wasn't a totally bad idea.