Double Res
SmoodCroozn
Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Important or a Distraction?</div> I'd like to hear some alien players opinions on double res, as we are usually the underdogs. I find double res take a lot of attention and res to maintain, yet easy to siege. Do you find double res maps to add more strategy to gameplay, or in fact diminish it? Do you try to hold it at the beginning of the game, or take it later on? Which chamber helps the most in defending double res?
Comments
ns_caged and ns_veil for example. If they don't, they'll be chronically short on resources.
Edit:
But most of the time...nah, it's not worth it. Well...sometimes when I'm a commander I get idiot nub marines that continually go into a lamed up double and die AND I GET REALLY REALLY **** OFF WHEN THAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY DON'T GO TO WHERE I TELL THEM TO AND JUST DIE IN DOUBLE.
But other than that, double isn't a good investment for the Kharaa.
For example, on Caged, if you have vent, losing double res basically means you lost the game. However, with Gen, it becomes a nonissue, as the aliens just take the right side of the map (aux, shipping, then vent) and can have a fade take it out in time for vent hive.
In general, if you have a side hive, it is not as critical, especially if you can confine the marines to double and spawn.
However, the center hive is often VERY close to double res, and posessing one gives very easy acess to the other.
Kharaa: 2 rts that give 1 res every 30 seconds (depends on team size). Takes ~100 res to lame up. Not worth it for res reasons. Prevents Marines from having 2 rts. Worth it.
Basically RTs can mean next to nothing to Kharaa but if Marines get them then its GG
If you think about it like that, then it is a good idea to electrify or turret every RT that has a good chance of dying and that's obviously not a good idea.
The correct way to think about it, is to think about what else you could do with that res. 100 res to defend against skulks, could be 100 res that could give you both lvl2 upgrades, the AA upgrade, and a shotgun OR 3 Shotguns, Armor3, 3 Welders, and an HMG OR etc.
Remember this:
Onos > Passive Defense
Hive 2/3 Gorge > Passive Defense
Fade > Passive Defense
Regen Lerk > Passive Defense
2-3 Skulks > Passive Defense
so
Active Defense > Passive Defense
It's better to have a phase gate guarded with mines, while keeping a marine around that area, than to waste lots of res on turrets/electrification.
Getting back to the original topic, double is usually a good place to have a forward base. If you place a phase gate and mines there, then the marines will have a reasonably well guarded, centrally located area that will give you 2-4 RTs and usually a hive. A well organized attack can take it out pretty easily, but if you scout well, then you can prepare for that.
i see many comms flood double res with investments..
and lose their chance to get 2 hives.
but not all.....
ns_eclipse (or veil?)
its essential for aliens to win in most cases
I'm comming pretty often and on ns_veil for example i sometimes let the aliens have dbl until the last hive got killed.
On ns_caged it's the other way around, if you don't get dbl as marine in the start chances are big you gonna lose the round.
But for the most part i think dbl is highly overrated. There is no round relly NOT a single round of ns_ where there is not at least 1 person yelling at the start of the round "OMG get dbl!!11one!!" and the whole team runs there and most of the times aliens win the battle over dbl at roundstart.
Then they start laming it up like it's some sort of hive just to get the stuff sieged 5 minutes later.
A real sad thing is how some ppl put dbl over a second hive..
I can't count the times when there are some marines moving at the second hive position with no hive yet building. At the same time some lone rambo starts knifing dbl.
You can write in big caps "MARINES INC HIVE" or "FFS KILL THAT MARINE BUILDING THE PG AT <insert hive position>"
Still the whole team will be heading to dbl and in the end you got a 2 hive lockdown and dbl get's sieged anyway.
I agree that res are important, but res without a second hive are useless. As marines keep teching up and farm both hives with turrets and elec. At some point there is absolutley no chance you gonna get that hive free vs these lvl2 hmg marines holding out in there vs 1 hive fades/oni/lerks.
On ns_veil for example double is important for the aliens, BUT (at least on pubs) the marines will go to dbl pretty early in the game.
So it's better to hold dbl while you are building your rts in more save locations.
Veil, marines get access to Pipeline and subsector fairly easily.
Mineshaft, marines get access to top and bottom left hives.
Although double should not be the utmost priority for aliens, it's important for aliens to stop marines from getting a permanent foothold in double, as it usually causes pressure on aliens. After all, res is THAT important to Kharaa.
0.02
Don't cap dbl, but stop them from capping it.
Each time you lame it up you're blowing 50 res (two gorges, two nodes) and thats not counting supporting OC and appropriate gorge upgrades.
Rush in, take dbl out, leave it. If anyone IS gorge, drop 2 oc to make the marines sweat for it. While they're trying to retake that, you can be cleaning up elsewhere. The more time marines spend in dbl, the more time you can spend at the hives clearing them out.
Marines will not be turning a profit from dbl, and as long as you have MC they won't be cutting off any flow through the map. If you deny the marines space then they will usually go for a hive. Leave dbl open and they'll flock it it, usually for no real gain.
Unfortunately for the aliens, I find that once I farm double, MS gets to be kharaa free, because double just keeps getting waves and waves of aliens. And furthermore, I send all marine to double before anything else, so it just becomes the ultimate staging point. Thats why giving double to marines seems to work agasint the aliens.
Again, this is just how I comm, and keep in mind this is just in large pubbs.
If you MUST occupy it, use nothing more than RTs, because anything more is a waste of res.
Aliens should get the rest of the map, giving them a 7 to 3 res advantage.
Double res for marines if used wisely can be good. If marines just reloc to double and double is near the nearest hive. They loose. Skulks can always rush and rush taking down the base. If double is not near their hive then its a good thing. Cause marine can move out to hive. Like double on ns_tanith to waste. They can take this area AND west access = 4 res nodes and a secured hive with PG. If marines dnot reloc. Double is pointless unless u have a skilled team. Securing it and keeping it fully defended for a long time is hard.
Aliens only shud have double once they have the nearest nodes to hive and the other hive nodes if there not capped by rines. To take out a oced up double = 55 res or just 20. 1st = 2 siege and tf adv. and 2nd = a GL man.
One tactic is to get it mid-late game about 5-12 mins. When u have fades and lerks. Lerks are great for sporing out rines in double and fades just pwn completely. All good doubles have a vent generally for this purpose: ns_tanith, ns_caged.
ok.. maybe one OC to let you all know to rush it if needed. But never put to much effort into it
For the rest of us, dbl res is usually easily sieged out, and is easily overrun by 2-3 hive aliens who have capped all the other res on the map.
Here is the problem - once you put 100 res into holding dbl you are COMMITTED to saving that res. You can't just abandon it. Once you put a tfac and turrets down, you'll need a PG for your reinforcements, then you'll need more turrets to cover blind spots, then electricity to keep the smaller aliens out.
Whenever I see marines take dbl, aliens just keep running in and out, while the marines cluster around the PG trying to defend. Meanwhile a fade or some skulks are out taking out every other node, and capping them for aliens. Sooner or later the aliens have a stack of res, 2 onos and a lerk appear, and the entire marine team gets totalled.
If your alien, you drop OCs, upgrade chambers, RTs to the same amount or more, and it can usually be sieged down in a matter of seconds. Thats 100 res or more, GONE.
Dbl is a waste of res. Cap it and move on.
Some games, vs some chambers, it might actually be a good idea to lock a double res with turrets, mines and a pg even in competetive play (ns_origin comes to mind). Some time son certain maps, a pg in double might be a good idea if that is where you have marines when you get phase tech ready (veil for example).
As aliens, it might work to get double res on veil for two early RTs, have a gorge place an OC and cover it with a MC powered cele lerk...
It all depends on the hive you get, the map you play, how the oposition most often play out their early game, what their line up is, what your line up is, what chamber you will use, what pings you have...
What homicide says is true, it's a very broad question, and the only way you can really discuss a matter like this is by providing starting information such as the things mentioned above, and from a strategic point of view...
Write up a scenario from which we can discuss the best course of action and the outome of different actions, and the resulting discussion might actually be of some use.
I obviously need to study English a bit more... I cant seem to make a point without writing five paragraphs <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->