<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Monkey+Feb 25 2005, 09:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Monkey @ Feb 25 2005, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You wont kill the skulk 100% of the time with your pistol, then you take care of him/them with the lmg. Most people that use shotties end up charging up and getting flanked/swarmed by multiple skulks. I would always take the lmg for skulks at distances.
The shotty would be much much better if given to a marine or placed on the ip. Mines>shotties for chair base defense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you won't kill a skulk a 100% of the time with a lmg either, if ya did aliens would never win.... dur
and by saying you'd get flanked by multiple skulks is implying that there were multiple skulks. in which case you'd stand better chances with you lmg how?
and your example of "most people" charging with the shottie. most people are morons if you've ever noticed on a pub server. for reals
this whole thing about mines are better is a bunch of bull. its like saying phasing is better then sieging. there both usefull in diffrent cases. and the best comms use both. I use mines in my base but I allso get myself a shottie. until I get an upgraded armory. then I get a HMG and throw my shottie to the best marine.
I have yet to see a commander in competitive play with a shotgun. I may be wrong, but it sounds like a rediculous tactic. I can't think of a situation where I would want a shotgon for my base instead of mines on the ip. If your base build is good, the skulks should be dead before you would need to fire the lmg.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
It's not ridiculous, I get one if I have fades in base frequently and can't get a HMG. Early game to midgame it's more cost efficient to stick with the stock lmg though, for reasons homi phrased pretty well. If you read my previous post you'll see I said pretty much the same thing, you shouldn't have structures close to the chair, so the lmg would kill a single skulk safer and faster than the shotgun would. Multiple skulks would still probably be easier to kill with a pistol/lmg combo than a shotgun, you'd simply need a way to keep track of where they are and know when it's safe to hop out versus biding your time. The 10 res for mines and decent commander lmg aim are by far the best defense in my opinion, followed by a HMG + Obs combo by mid-late game to give the comm a heads-up on base incomings and let him take care of business.
how is killing multiple skulks with a lmg easier then a shotgun? of course base's should be well built to prevent blindspots and coverage from skulks... but you take your first skulk with your pistol. and you can take the rest of the skulks with your shottie. because by the time you kill the first skulk with your pistol any other skulks will be rushing you and get kinda close. in which case at that range the LMG is worse then the shotgun.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Shotguns are all or nothing weapons. AT RANGE, which is where you'll be engaging skulks if your base is set up properly, you can kill skulks faster with a LMG than you can a shotgun. If you used a shotgun, you'd have to either move closer to the skulk (if the skulk is smart), or hit the skulk as it runs across the room at you (skulk is dumb). Obviously the smart skulk will draw you away from the chair, get you up close, and either bait for the skulk you don't see or take a chance and glide jump around the structure at you. If you miss, you die. If you hit it, you'll probably be ok. The point is with the LMG you have FAR more stand-off distance from the skulk, and can easily engage multiple skulks from a much further distance than you can the shotgun. The shotgun requires you to let the skulk(s) get closer, which is a danger that you rarely want to take as the comm. It's safer to pick skulks off from beside the chair than to brave using the shotgun at medium to close range. The 10 res is better spent on mines, in case you do die it's still possible to catch the skulk on a mine when you spawn and jump off the IP.
Also realize you're taking best case scenarios dealing with a certain level skill skulk. You cannot assume the skulks will simply sit there and do what you want. The LMG is a versatile weapon that you can use at pretty much any range in NS, whereas the shotgun is literally useless until aliens get closer, which is where you do not want them to be in a large room like most marine starts. The versatility of engaging skulks at any range with the LMG outweighs the one-shot kill ability of the shotgun for the commander, who above all needs to stay alive until help arrives.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj+Feb 27 2005, 04:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj @ Feb 27 2005, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotguns are all or nothing weapons. AT RANGE, which is where you'll be engaging skulks if your base is set up properly, you can kill skulks faster with a LMG than you can a shotgun. If you used a shotgun, you'd have to either move closer to the skulk (if the skulk is smart), or hit the skulk as it runs across the room at you (skulk is dumb). Obviously the smart skulk will draw you away from the chair, get you up close, and either bait for the skulk you don't see or take a chance and glide jump around the structure at you. If you miss, you die. If you hit it, you'll probably be ok. The point is with the LMG you have FAR more stand-off distance from the skulk, and can easily engage multiple skulks from a much further distance than you can the shotgun. The shotgun requires you to let the skulk(s) get closer, which is a danger that you rarely want to take as the comm. It's safer to pick skulks off from beside the chair than to brave using the shotgun at medium to close range. The 10 res is better spent on mines, in case you do die it's still possible to catch the skulk on a mine when you spawn and jump off the IP.
Also realize you're taking best case scenarios dealing with a certain level skill skulk. You cannot assume the skulks will simply sit there and do what you want. The LMG is a versatile weapon that you can use at pretty much any range in NS, whereas the shotgun is literally useless until aliens get closer, which is where you do not want them to be in a large room like most marine starts. The versatility of engaging skulks at any range with the LMG outweighs the one-shot kill ability of the shotgun for the commander, who above all needs to stay alive until help arrives. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU HAVE A PISTOL FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!
let me fill ya in, if you press the number 2, then left mouse click, you will pull out the best long range weapon the marines have. it not only has pin point accuracy, but it allso does 20 freaking damage a shot! USE THE GOSH DANG PISTOL AT RANGE! pistol at range > lmg
can you not understand that? yes the lmg is more versitile, but with a shottie pistol combo, you'll have the best range and the best short ranged weapons, the skulk can't win from either way.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
First, don't attempt to talk down to me. It's rather hilarious and simply makes you look a bit foolish telling me something I've done at the top levels of NS play, and indeed in real life at this point with real guns and real people. You do not want to **** around with a weapon that may or may not be useful in any given situation when you can't predict the situation beforehand.
Second, if you can reliably kill 2 skulks per pistol clip, you're a bloody aimbotter. I'm a mediocre shot and I drop 2 skulks per LMG clip at medium distance while they're trying to evade. The pistol is a sniper weapon that packs a good punch, it's not good for multiple moving targets. The LMG is.
Third, aliens are not stupid. When you try to pistol them, they're going to get in your face quickly. It's easy to pistol one alien, it's not so easy to pistol one and shotty the other unless you're a decent player. Most players do not fall into this category. This is where you fall into the shotgun catch-22, you have to let aliens get in your face to hit them, but if you miss you're screwed. Commanders cannot play the chance game when the game depends on whether they make it back into the chair or not.
listen bazooka bill, I don't care how many guns you've used in real life no knowledge of todays weapons matters at all in NS. were talking about nanites... so thats just a starter
I can't pistol whip 2 skulks unless I ambush them and get lucky on my shots, but I can easily kill 1 with 1 pistol clip. and I can kill 2 more skulks with a shottie.
you make it sound like its really hard to kill a skulk with a shottie, I promis you its not. its point blank death. if you've played NS at the "top" then I'd imagine you know how to kill a skulk with a shottie. i can do it quite easily. but then again maybe I'm a little more skilled then you are.
the problem with the pistol lmg combo is either A- you'll kill the first skulk with your lmg and the second one will get close in and then you will most likely die or B- you kill the fist skulk with your pistol and the second skulk still rushes you and gets in close range.
once those skulks get in close range your dead meat. but if you have a shottie and decent aim its easy to fend off 2 skulks with a shottie.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the problem with the pistol lmg combo is either A- you'll kill the first skulk with your lmg and the second one will get close in and then you will most likely die or B- you kill the fist skulk with your pistol and the second skulk still rushes you and gets in close range.
once those skulks get in close range your dead meat. but if you have a shottie and decent aim its easy to fend off 2 skulks with a shottie.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not true. In situation a, you would kill the first skulk with the pistol. You would then have 50 bullets to kill the second skulk. I would rather be able to attack the skulk from a distance, than have to close with a shotgun. There have been times where people have shotguns and are pumping like crazy, trying to save some important structure but they just dont make it in time. With an lmg, you dont have to leave your chair, you can pop out and blast away.
In situation b, you should be able to kill the skulk with your 50 bullets. A good base would give the commander time to switch to your lmg without dying.
I actuly came across a situations where I gave my self a shotgun as comm. We had a weak starting game but came up with a very strong mid game. We had high res mid game but didnt have the res needed early game to get the armory upgrading so HMGs were late. We had killed the second hive with a solid shotgun push and loads of meds. My team was recapping the map and gaining solid control on the field.
1 fade then rushed my base solo. I dropped my self a shotgun and then jumped out of the chair. I only did this because we had a marine already coming back to base (with a shotgun) and the structure the fade was killing was low. I drew the fade off the structure(red) and then the 2nd marine came into base and the fade was forced out of base.
This is yet another reason why having a shotgun in the chair is not so good. You always have the option of dropping your self a shotgun BEFORE you get out. This gives u the option of either an lmg OR a shotgun. In this situation if I had attempted to remove the fade from the structure with an lmg the fade would have ignored me and just finished killing the structure.
note: in order to get the fade off my structure i had to rush him as commander. If it had been a skulk an lmg would have served me better.
It is acceptable in specific situations, but giving general advice to drop a comm-shotgun is bad advice.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Normally, if I had to deal with a threat in base that I can't deal with using an LMG and a pistol (i.e, more than 2 skulks, Fade, anything big) I'll probably beacon, so dorpping myself a shotty isn't that useful. And Homocide is right, if you have to, you cna drop yourself a shotty right before you jump out. That's a good idea too.
This thread is the funny. What truely matters is that you KILL the bad guys in base. Shotgun, lmgs and hmgs all have a specific use for this, **** even a GL could work in a specific scenario.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 27 2005, 06:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 27 2005, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> listen bazooka bill, I don't care how many guns you've used in real life no knowledge of todays weapons matters at all in NS. were talking about nanites... so thats just a starter
I can't pistol whip 2 skulks unless I ambush them and get lucky on my shots, but I can easily kill 1 with 1 pistol clip. and I can kill 2 more skulks with a shottie.
you make it sound like its really hard to kill a skulk with a shottie, I promis you its not. its point blank death. if you've played NS at the "top" then I'd imagine you know how to kill a skulk with a shottie. i can do it quite easily. but then again maybe I'm a little more skilled then you are.
the problem with the pistol lmg combo is either A- you'll kill the first skulk with your lmg and the second one will get close in and then you will most likely die or B- you kill the fist skulk with your pistol and the second skulk still rushes you and gets in close range.
once those skulks get in close range your dead meat. but if you have a shottie and decent aim its easy to fend off 2 skulks with a shottie. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The knowledge gained from using weapons in actual combat lends itself to any application of weapons. You do not want to use a weapon in a situation it's not fully useful in. The M240B is a monster machine gun that shreds everything, but you do not want to try and use it in MOUT house clearing runs when size and weight are a factor. Likewise the M4 is very useful in close combat, but sucks when used as a supression weapon. I've done (am doing) the real deal, and I've played top level competitive NS. All knowledge can be cross-applied to other areas, and experience added to knowledge will make the two into something of practical use when told to someone else. In my experience, it would not be a wise decision to just drop yourself a shotgun unless given good reason, and a skulk (or skulks) is not a good reason to have one. Here is why:
If you allow a skulk to get in close and you miss your shot, it is very very likely you won't get a second one versus decent skulks. When you get ambushed carrying a shotgun, you get one shot, 2 at the most, and it's over. Assume the same thinking when getting out the chair. You risk losing the game on one shot, which is something I, and pretty much every other top level competitive commander, am unwilling to risk. This all changes when it's anything but skulks, but for a skulk, the LMG is superior in almost every way. Any commander that's been in a baserush situation in a match would want the LMG unless it was simply a matter of killing as many aliens as possible to slow them down before help arrived. If no help is coming, the LMG gives much better over time damage at all ranges. You may think you're Mr. E-Badass with a shotgun, but everyone misses, and if you happen to miss that one shot standing beside the chair, it's game over.
well I guess I comm with a lot more on the line. but the gambles pay off for me.
the idea of dropping the shottie then getting out doesn't work because if your base is spread out you might have to run to the shottie if your armory is far away from the CC. and even if it is close dropping it will alert the skulks that the comms jumping and the'll most likely come camp the CC.
Whenever the comm jumps out of the chair. all the skulks rush him (unless of course the building has 1 or 2 bars left) in which case you can use your Pistol to snipe off that skulk. and the rest of the skulks (not expecting a shottie but expecting to be sniped at with the LMG) will rush into close range . and BAM ya kill em. It's one shot for the whole game. but I'm confedent in my skills.
Continuing on an idea in the last post, you could always drop a shotgun, then not get out, or wait a few seconds to get out. If the skulk rushes to the chair, then that's more time that they aren't doing anything. As they run back to the structure they were chewing on, jump out and kill them. Just a random thought, I don't know if it's actually a decent idea.
<!--QuoteBegin-im lost+Mar 1 2005, 01:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Mar 1 2005, 01:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Continuing on an idea in the last post, you could always drop a shotgun, then not get out, or wait a few seconds to get out. If the skulk rushes to the chair, then that's more time that they aren't doing anything. As they run back to the structure they were chewing on, jump out and kill them. Just a random thought, I don't know if it's actually a decent idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hmmm that is an interesting idea...
some comms drop Health packs outside the chair for them when they get out... maybe you could drop a welder or something to distract the skulk and then pop out... and who knows what other ways you can fake em out into thinking your getting out.
in you drop an sg in preparation to kill the skulk u will eventually come out anyway, or else it's a waste of res. but if u r planning to jump out to kill the skulk, why go through the trouble of luring the skulk towards the cc and then wait until it gets back to kill it? why not just jump out in the first place without any 'fakes' and surprise the skulk and kill it just like that.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 1 2005, 01:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 1 2005, 01:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-im lost+Mar 1 2005, 01:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (im lost @ Mar 1 2005, 01:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Continuing on an idea in the last post, you could always drop a shotgun, then not get out, or wait a few seconds to get out. If the skulk rushes to the chair, then that's more time that they aren't doing anything. As they run back to the structure they were chewing on, jump out and kill them. Just a random thought, I don't know if it's actually a decent idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hmmm that is an interesting idea...
some comms drop Health packs outside the chair for them when they get out... maybe you could drop a welder or something to distract the skulk and then pop out... and who knows what other ways you can fake em out into thinking your getting out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a waste of res, AvengerX. im lost's idea isn't bad, though.
<!--QuoteBegin-j3st+Mar 1 2005, 06:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (j3st @ Mar 1 2005, 06:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in you drop an sg in preparation to kill the skulk u will eventually come out anyway, or else it's a waste of res. but if u r planning to jump out to kill the skulk, why go through the trouble of luring the skulk towards the cc and then wait until it gets back to kill it? why not just jump out in the first place without any 'fakes' and surprise the skulk and kill it just like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If the alien is looking and moving away from the chair, rather than toward it, you will have an easier time killing it. Also, it probably won't be a waste of res to drop the shotgun even if you don't use it, because it should sit there long enough for the next spawning marine to grab it.
<!--QuoteBegin-j3st+Mar 1 2005, 09:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (j3st @ Mar 1 2005, 09:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in you drop an sg in preparation to kill the skulk u will eventually come out anyway, or else it's a waste of res. but if u r planning to jump out to kill the skulk, why go through the trouble of luring the skulk towards the cc and then wait until it gets back to kill it? why not just jump out in the first place without any 'fakes' and surprise the skulk and kill it just like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hand grenades are a waste of res
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 1 2005, 11:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 1 2005, 11:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-j3st+Mar 1 2005, 09:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (j3st @ Mar 1 2005, 09:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in you drop an sg in preparation to kill the skulk u will eventually come out anyway, or else it's a waste of res. but if u r planning to jump out to kill the skulk, why go through the trouble of luring the skulk towards the cc and then wait until it gets back to kill it? why not just jump out in the first place without any 'fakes' and surprise the skulk and kill it just like that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hand grenades are a waste of res
shotties are usefull <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hand grenades are a waste of res because no one knows how to use them. They are very useful on pubs if your team is smart with them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hand grenades are a waste of res because no one knows how to use them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Usually, no one knows they have them even, so it's hard to make them useful. If you upgrade hand grenades, make sure you tell the rest of the team, so they don't discover them when you start handing out welders and HA.
Actually, I wish I had hand grenades in the first 5 minutes or so of the game. When all you're facing is skulks and gorges, having a high explosive device on hand can be, dare I say it, handy? As long as the com tells the marines he's going early hand nades, I'll vote yes on spending the res. Just like mines, I wish they saw more use in pubs, both from the com and by the rines.
Hand nades are really useless for marines who go 20-<2 though, and other than desperate handnade PG rushing, they are sort of a one-use novelty item when the aliens have two hives. First five minutes or so though, and they are dirty fun.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj+Feb 27 2005, 10:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj @ Feb 27 2005, 10:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotguns are all or nothing weapons. AT RANGE, which is where you'll be engaging skulks if your base is set up properly, you can kill skulks faster with a LMG than you can a shotgun. If you used a shotgun, you'd have to either move closer to the skulk (if the skulk is smart), or hit the skulk as it runs across the room at you (skulk is dumb). Obviously the smart skulk will draw you away from the chair, get you up close, and either bait for the skulk you don't see or take a chance and glide jump around the structure at you. If you miss, you die. If you hit it, you'll probably be ok. The point is with the LMG you have FAR more stand-off distance from the skulk, and can easily engage multiple skulks from a much further distance than you can the shotgun. The shotgun requires you to let the skulk(s) get closer, which is a danger that you rarely want to take as the comm. It's safer to pick skulks off from beside the chair than to brave using the shotgun at medium to close range. The 10 res is better spent on mines, in case you do die it's still possible to catch the skulk on a mine when you spawn and jump off the IP.
Also realize you're taking best case scenarios dealing with a certain level skill skulk. You cannot assume the skulks will simply sit there and do what you want. The LMG is a versatile weapon that you can use at pretty much any range in NS, whereas the shotgun is literally useless until aliens get closer, which is where you do not want them to be in a large room like most marine starts. The versatility of engaging skulks at any range with the LMG outweighs the one-shot kill ability of the shotgun for the commander, who above all needs to stay alive until help arrives. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I have few things to add to this and homicide's sage advice. First is to point out that the shotgun has a longer draw time than the LMG IIRC, so it's an even worse backup weapon. Should you try to switch from pistol to shotgun, you'll find that a CAL quality skulk can bunnyhop across the room into your face quicker than you can shoot him.
Next, it should be noted that now all skulks carry upgrades, getting out of the chair for <b>any</b> reason should be carefully considered. The advanced armoury is the only structure the marines <i>can't</i> afford to lose, so in most case, it should be sufficient to wait for a returning/respawning marines and keep your focus on the guys who need scans and ammo and medpacks in the field.
And Avenger, whilst everyone here is willing to listen to your opinion, bear in mind that these guys have repeatedly proven the validity of theirs in public competition in the <a href='http://www.caleague.com/?page=standings&conference=all&subdivision=interdivisional' target='_blank'>Cyberathelete Amateur League</a>. Homicide is commander of the 9th placed (overall) NS team in the US. TheAdj is a Playtester who provides most of the best reasoned and well presented test feedback on gameplay. I'm not telling you to shut up, just to consider being a little bit more humble towards people who have blatantly displayed that they are in the very top tier of NS play. Especially when they are just trying to help.
If that's not sufficient, then I suggest you hook up with either of them to practice the scenario you suggest. If you can repeatedly prove them wrong, then I'm sure that they'd both be willing to learn from it. I just don't see that happening. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 9 2005, 04:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 9 2005, 04:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj+Feb 27 2005, 10:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj @ Feb 27 2005, 10:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotguns are all or nothing weapons. AT RANGE, which is where you'll be engaging skulks if your base is set up properly, you can kill skulks faster with a LMG than you can a shotgun. If you used a shotgun, you'd have to either move closer to the skulk (if the skulk is smart), or hit the skulk as it runs across the room at you (skulk is dumb). Obviously the smart skulk will draw you away from the chair, get you up close, and either bait for the skulk you don't see or take a chance and glide jump around the structure at you. If you miss, you die. If you hit it, you'll probably be ok. The point is with the LMG you have FAR more stand-off distance from the skulk, and can easily engage multiple skulks from a much further distance than you can the shotgun. The shotgun requires you to let the skulk(s) get closer, which is a danger that you rarely want to take as the comm. It's safer to pick skulks off from beside the chair than to brave using the shotgun at medium to close range. The 10 res is better spent on mines, in case you do die it's still possible to catch the skulk on a mine when you spawn and jump off the IP.
Also realize you're taking best case scenarios dealing with a certain level skill skulk. You cannot assume the skulks will simply sit there and do what you want. The LMG is a versatile weapon that you can use at pretty much any range in NS, whereas the shotgun is literally useless until aliens get closer, which is where you do not want them to be in a large room like most marine starts. The versatility of engaging skulks at any range with the LMG outweighs the one-shot kill ability of the shotgun for the commander, who above all needs to stay alive until help arrives. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have few things to add to this and homicide's sage advice. First is to point out that the shotgun has a longer draw time than the LMG IIRC, so it's an even worse backup weapon. Should you try to switch from pistol to shotgun, you'll find that a CAL quality skulk can bunnyhop across the room into your face quicker than you can shoot him.
Next, it should be noted that now all skulks carry upgrades, getting out of the chair for <b>any</b> reason should be carefully considered. The advanced armoury is the only structure the marines <i>can't</i> afford to lose, so in most case, it should be sufficient to wait for a returning/respawning marines and keep your focus on the guys who need scans and ammo and medpacks in the field.
And Avenger, whilst everyone here is willing to listen to your opinion, bear in mind that these guys have repeatedly proven the validity of theirs in public competition in the <a href='http://www.caleague.com/?page=standings&conference=all&subdivision=interdivisional' target='_blank'>Cyberathelete Amateur League</a>. Homicide is commander of the 9th placed (overall) NS team in the US. TheAdj is a Playtester who provides most of the best reasoned and well presented test feedback on gameplay. I'm not telling you to shut up, just to consider being a little bit more humble towards people who have blatantly displayed that they are in the very top tier of NS play. Especially when they are just trying to help.
If that's not sufficient, then I suggest you hook up with either of them to practice the scenario you suggest. If you can repeatedly prove them wrong, then I'm sure that they'd both be willing to learn from it. I just don't see that happening. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well yes, now that theres a new version and all of course new things have to be considered. since so many skulks are getting sens , I don't jump out very often anymore.
What I like to do is build everything as far away from the chair as I can. That way I just jump out and kill them. Unless I know they can bhop...then I yell at my marines or beacon.
Comments
The shotty would be much much better if given to a marine or placed on the ip. Mines>shotties for chair base defense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you won't kill a skulk a 100% of the time with a lmg either, if ya did aliens would never win.... dur
and by saying you'd get flanked by multiple skulks is implying that there were multiple skulks. in which case you'd stand better chances with you lmg how?
and your example of "most people" charging with the shottie. most people are morons if you've ever noticed on a pub server. for reals
this whole thing about mines are better is a bunch of bull. its like saying phasing is better then sieging. there both usefull in diffrent cases. and the best comms use both. I use mines in my base but I allso get myself a shottie. until I get an upgraded armory. then I get a HMG and throw my shottie to the best marine.
Also realize you're taking best case scenarios dealing with a certain level skill skulk. You cannot assume the skulks will simply sit there and do what you want. The LMG is a versatile weapon that you can use at pretty much any range in NS, whereas the shotgun is literally useless until aliens get closer, which is where you do not want them to be in a large room like most marine starts. The versatility of engaging skulks at any range with the LMG outweighs the one-shot kill ability of the shotgun for the commander, who above all needs to stay alive until help arrives.
Also realize you're taking best case scenarios dealing with a certain level skill skulk. You cannot assume the skulks will simply sit there and do what you want. The LMG is a versatile weapon that you can use at pretty much any range in NS, whereas the shotgun is literally useless until aliens get closer, which is where you do not want them to be in a large room like most marine starts. The versatility of engaging skulks at any range with the LMG outweighs the one-shot kill ability of the shotgun for the commander, who above all needs to stay alive until help arrives. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
YOU HAVE A PISTOL FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!
let me fill ya in, if you press the number 2, then left mouse click, you will pull out the best long range weapon the marines have. it not only has pin point accuracy, but it allso does 20 freaking damage a shot! USE THE GOSH DANG PISTOL AT RANGE! pistol at range > lmg
can you not understand that? yes the lmg is more versitile, but with a shottie pistol combo, you'll have the best range and the best short ranged weapons, the skulk can't win from either way.
its not that hard to understand
Second, if you can reliably kill 2 skulks per pistol clip, you're a bloody aimbotter. I'm a mediocre shot and I drop 2 skulks per LMG clip at medium distance while they're trying to evade. The pistol is a sniper weapon that packs a good punch, it's not good for multiple moving targets. The LMG is.
Third, aliens are not stupid. When you try to pistol them, they're going to get in your face quickly. It's easy to pistol one alien, it's not so easy to pistol one and shotty the other unless you're a decent player. Most players do not fall into this category. This is where you fall into the shotgun catch-22, you have to let aliens get in your face to hit them, but if you miss you're screwed. Commanders cannot play the chance game when the game depends on whether they make it back into the chair or not.
I can't pistol whip 2 skulks unless I ambush them and get lucky on my shots, but I can easily kill 1 with 1 pistol clip. and I can kill 2 more skulks with a shottie.
you make it sound like its really hard to kill a skulk with a shottie, I promis you its not. its point blank death. if you've played NS at the "top" then I'd imagine you know how to kill a skulk with a shottie. i can do it quite easily. but then again maybe I'm a little more skilled then you are.
the problem with the pistol lmg combo is either A- you'll kill the first skulk with your lmg and the second one will get close in and then you will most likely die
or B- you kill the fist skulk with your pistol and the second skulk still rushes you and gets in close range.
once those skulks get in close range your dead meat. but if you have a shottie and decent aim its easy to fend off 2 skulks with a shottie.
or B- you kill the fist skulk with your pistol and the second skulk still rushes you and gets in close range.
once those skulks get in close range your dead meat. but if you have a shottie and decent aim its easy to fend off 2 skulks with a shottie.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not true. In situation a, you would kill the first skulk with the pistol. You would then have 50 bullets to kill the second skulk. I would rather be able to attack the skulk from a distance, than have to close with a shotgun. There have been times where people have shotguns and are pumping like crazy, trying to save some important structure but they just dont make it in time. With an lmg, you dont have to leave your chair, you can pop out and blast away.
In situation b, you should be able to kill the skulk with your 50 bullets. A good base would give the commander time to switch to your lmg without dying.
1 fade then rushed my base solo. I dropped my self a shotgun and then jumped out of the chair. I only did this because we had a marine already coming back to base (with a shotgun) and the structure the fade was killing was low. I drew the fade off the structure(red) and then the 2nd marine came into base and the fade was forced out of base.
This is yet another reason why having a shotgun in the chair is not so good. You always have the option of dropping your self a shotgun BEFORE you get out. This gives u the option of either an lmg OR a shotgun. In this situation if I had attempted to remove the fade from the structure with an lmg the fade would have ignored me and just finished killing the structure.
note: in order to get the fade off my structure i had to rush him as commander. If it had been a skulk an lmg would have served me better.
It is acceptable in specific situations, but giving general advice to drop a comm-shotgun is bad advice.
I can't pistol whip 2 skulks unless I ambush them and get lucky on my shots, but I can easily kill 1 with 1 pistol clip. and I can kill 2 more skulks with a shottie.
you make it sound like its really hard to kill a skulk with a shottie, I promis you its not. its point blank death. if you've played NS at the "top" then I'd imagine you know how to kill a skulk with a shottie. i can do it quite easily. but then again maybe I'm a little more skilled then you are.
the problem with the pistol lmg combo is either A- you'll kill the first skulk with your lmg and the second one will get close in and then you will most likely die
or B- you kill the fist skulk with your pistol and the second skulk still rushes you and gets in close range.
once those skulks get in close range your dead meat. but if you have a shottie and decent aim its easy to fend off 2 skulks with a shottie. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The knowledge gained from using weapons in actual combat lends itself to any application of weapons. You do not want to use a weapon in a situation it's not fully useful in. The M240B is a monster machine gun that shreds everything, but you do not want to try and use it in MOUT house clearing runs when size and weight are a factor. Likewise the M4 is very useful in close combat, but sucks when used as a supression weapon. I've done (am doing) the real deal, and I've played top level competitive NS. All knowledge can be cross-applied to other areas, and experience added to knowledge will make the two into something of practical use when told to someone else. In my experience, it would not be a wise decision to just drop yourself a shotgun unless given good reason, and a skulk (or skulks) is not a good reason to have one. Here is why:
If you allow a skulk to get in close and you miss your shot, it is very very likely you won't get a second one versus decent skulks. When you get ambushed carrying a shotgun, you get one shot, 2 at the most, and it's over. Assume the same thinking when getting out the chair. You risk losing the game on one shot, which is something I, and pretty much every other top level competitive commander, am unwilling to risk. This all changes when it's anything but skulks, but for a skulk, the LMG is superior in almost every way. Any commander that's been in a baserush situation in a match would want the LMG unless it was simply a matter of killing as many aliens as possible to slow them down before help arrived. If no help is coming, the LMG gives much better over time damage at all ranges. You may think you're Mr. E-Badass with a shotgun, but everyone misses, and if you happen to miss that one shot standing beside the chair, it's game over.
the idea of dropping the shottie then getting out doesn't work because if your base is spread out you might have to run to the shottie if your armory is far away from the CC. and even if it is close dropping it will alert the skulks that the comms jumping and the'll most likely come camp the CC.
Whenever the comm jumps out of the chair. all the skulks rush him (unless of course the building has 1 or 2 bars left) in which case you can use your Pistol to snipe off that skulk. and the rest of the skulks (not expecting a shottie but expecting to be sniped at with the LMG) will rush into close range . and BAM ya kill em. It's one shot for the whole game. but I'm confedent in my skills.
hmmm that is an interesting idea...
some comms drop Health packs outside the chair for them when they get out... maybe you could drop a welder or something to distract the skulk and then pop out... and who knows what other ways you can fake em out into thinking your getting out.
hmmm that is an interesting idea...
some comms drop Health packs outside the chair for them when they get out... maybe you could drop a welder or something to distract the skulk and then pop out... and who knows what other ways you can fake em out into thinking your getting out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a waste of res, AvengerX. im lost's idea isn't bad, though.
If the alien is looking and moving away from the chair, rather than toward it, you will have an easier time killing it. Also, it probably won't be a waste of res to drop the shotgun even if you don't use it, because it should sit there long enough for the next spawning marine to grab it.
hand grenades are a waste of res
shotties are usefull
hand grenades are a waste of res
shotties are usefull <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hand grenades are a waste of res because no one knows how to use them. They are very useful on pubs if your team is smart with them.
Usually, no one knows they have them even, so it's hard to make them useful. If you upgrade hand grenades, make sure you tell the rest of the team, so they don't discover them when you start handing out welders and HA.
Hand nades are really useless for marines who go 20-<2 though, and other than desperate handnade PG rushing, they are sort of a one-use novelty item when the aliens have two hives. First five minutes or so though, and they are dirty fun.
Also realize you're taking best case scenarios dealing with a certain level skill skulk. You cannot assume the skulks will simply sit there and do what you want. The LMG is a versatile weapon that you can use at pretty much any range in NS, whereas the shotgun is literally useless until aliens get closer, which is where you do not want them to be in a large room like most marine starts. The versatility of engaging skulks at any range with the LMG outweighs the one-shot kill ability of the shotgun for the commander, who above all needs to stay alive until help arrives. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have few things to add to this and homicide's sage advice. First is to point out that the shotgun has a longer draw time than the LMG IIRC, so it's an even worse backup weapon. Should you try to switch from pistol to shotgun, you'll find that a CAL quality skulk can bunnyhop across the room into your face quicker than you can shoot him.
Next, it should be noted that now all skulks carry upgrades, getting out of the chair for <b>any</b> reason should be carefully considered. The advanced armoury is the only structure the marines <i>can't</i> afford to lose, so in most case, it should be sufficient to wait for a returning/respawning marines and keep your focus on the guys who need scans and ammo and medpacks in the field.
And Avenger, whilst everyone here is willing to listen to your opinion, bear in mind that these guys have repeatedly proven the validity of theirs in public competition in the <a href='http://www.caleague.com/?page=standings&conference=all&subdivision=interdivisional' target='_blank'>Cyberathelete Amateur League</a>. Homicide is commander of the 9th placed (overall) NS team in the US. TheAdj is a Playtester who provides most of the best reasoned and well presented test feedback on gameplay.
I'm not telling you to shut up, just to consider being a little bit more humble towards people who have blatantly displayed that they are in the very top tier of NS play. Especially when they are just trying to help.
If that's not sufficient, then I suggest you hook up with either of them to practice the scenario you suggest. If you can repeatedly prove them wrong, then I'm sure that they'd both be willing to learn from it. I just don't see that happening. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also realize you're taking best case scenarios dealing with a certain level skill skulk. You cannot assume the skulks will simply sit there and do what you want. The LMG is a versatile weapon that you can use at pretty much any range in NS, whereas the shotgun is literally useless until aliens get closer, which is where you do not want them to be in a large room like most marine starts. The versatility of engaging skulks at any range with the LMG outweighs the one-shot kill ability of the shotgun for the commander, who above all needs to stay alive until help arrives. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have few things to add to this and homicide's sage advice. First is to point out that the shotgun has a longer draw time than the LMG IIRC, so it's an even worse backup weapon. Should you try to switch from pistol to shotgun, you'll find that a CAL quality skulk can bunnyhop across the room into your face quicker than you can shoot him.
Next, it should be noted that now all skulks carry upgrades, getting out of the chair for <b>any</b> reason should be carefully considered. The advanced armoury is the only structure the marines <i>can't</i> afford to lose, so in most case, it should be sufficient to wait for a returning/respawning marines and keep your focus on the guys who need scans and ammo and medpacks in the field.
And Avenger, whilst everyone here is willing to listen to your opinion, bear in mind that these guys have repeatedly proven the validity of theirs in public competition in the <a href='http://www.caleague.com/?page=standings&conference=all&subdivision=interdivisional' target='_blank'>Cyberathelete Amateur League</a>. Homicide is commander of the 9th placed (overall) NS team in the US. TheAdj is a Playtester who provides most of the best reasoned and well presented test feedback on gameplay.
I'm not telling you to shut up, just to consider being a little bit more humble towards people who have blatantly displayed that they are in the very top tier of NS play. Especially when they are just trying to help.
If that's not sufficient, then I suggest you hook up with either of them to practice the scenario you suggest. If you can repeatedly prove them wrong, then I'm sure that they'd both be willing to learn from it. I just don't see that happening. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well yes, now that theres a new version and all of course new things have to be considered. since so many skulks are getting sens , I don't jump out very often anymore.