Wait, What?

Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members Posts: 1,216 Fully active user
What's this about?
What console commands does the team view as exploits?

NS was meant to be played without the console. Any command or behavior that requires the console or a custom .cfg to operate is considered an exploit and won't be allowed in official competitive play, whenever enforceable.


It's in the UWE FAQ, Alkiller mentioned it in another thread, but it's unrelated to said thread.

Is this true?
RAHHH!!! BUFF SKULKS!
«1

Comments

  • MrRadicalEdMrRadicalEd Turrent Master Join Date: 2004-08-13 Member: 30601Members Posts: 716 Fully active user
    Where is the UWE FAQ?
    What if we crowdfund the Director's Chair?
  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members Posts: 1,216 Fully active user
  • comradecomrade Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23774Members Posts: 590
    yeah i quoted that once when Forlorn was on a crusade
    LOL

    i killed knife
  • amnesiacamnesiac Join Date: 2004-11-03 Member: 32619Members Posts: 180
    Even so, CAL allows custom .cfg files & scripts; therefor, I don't see how that statement above is justified. (gaming orb enforces mp_blockscripts 1) I posted a full list of halflife commands in this thread: click here i can see how some commands can be "abused" such as the *timerefresh command. For the most part, however, I don't think it would be fair n'or practical to have to play Natural Selection without the console.
  • Marik_SteeleMarik_Steele To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members Posts: 4,202 mod
    edited February 2005
    There's a few factors that go into that short statement.

    The overall goal interface-wise is to make the combination of the offline menus and in-game user interface friendly and thorough enough that most console commands you would want to use would be redundant. For examples, the popup menu lets you do everything from communicate to drop your weapon, and the keyboard configuration menu now gives you the option to bind keys to "build <chamber type>" and "evolve <upgrade>."

    Another part of that statement refers to how we're continually trying to improve gameplay to make some commands irrelevant. For example, "kill" in the console is only useful for unsticking purposes and strategic decisions to relocate an individual at a loss of the equipment he or she is using. A system where stuck problems don't happen (map-specific bugs are being fixed all the time) and choosing to use kill in console isn't strategically viable (sometimes map-specific, sometimes balance related) is preferable.
    former NS community lead (back in the days of NS1, in between Nemesis Zero and Comprox)
  • DepotDepot The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members Posts: 6,411 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Photek @ Feb 15 2005, 05:06 PM)
    Even so, CAL allows custom .cfg files & scripts; therefor, I don't see how that statement above is justified. (gaming orb enforces mp_blockscripts 1) I posted a full list of halflife commands in this thread: click here i can see how some commands can be "abused" such as the *timerefresh command. For the most part, however, I don't think it would be fair n'or practical to have to play Natural Selection without the console.

    CAL allows custom .cfg files? Saying their league.cfg does not need to be executed?
    image
    modNS Forums - NS1 and NS2: We Wrote The Book On NS Moddingimage
  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members Posts: 1,216 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Marik Steele @ Feb 15 2005, 04:09 PM)
    There's a few factors that go into that short statement.

    The overall goal interface-wise is to make the combination of the offline menus and in-game user interface friendly and thorough enough that most console commands you would want to use would be redundant. For examples, the popup menu lets you do everything from communicate to drop your weapon, and the keyboard configuration menu now gives you the option to bind keys to "build <chamber type>" and "evolve <upgrade>."

    Another part of that statement refers to how we're continually trying to improve gameplay to make some commands irrelevant. For example, "kill" in the console is only useful for unsticking purposes and strategic decisions to relocate an individual at a loss of the equipment he or she is using. A system where stuck problems don't happen (map-specific bugs are being fixed all the time) and choosing to use kill in console isn't strategically viable (sometimes map-specific, sometimes balance related) is preferable.

    Nice evasion.

    You still haven't said anything about my main point (which I admit, I did not explicitly say, though it was implied), which was scripting. Sure, I really don't care about the stuff you just said, but is this statement regarding the stance of console and configs (scripting) of the NS Dev team true?
    RAHHH!!! BUFF SKULKS!
  • amnesiacamnesiac Join Date: 2004-11-03 Member: 32619Members Posts: 180
    QUOTE (kwikloader @ Feb 15 2005, 04:09 PM)
    CAL allows custom .cfg files? Saying their league.cfg does not need to be executed?

    I dont quite understand what it is your saying. But from my understanding if you're asking if the cal.cfg file needs to be excecuted then yes, it does. However, I was refering to the client, not the server, in my above post. "client" (eg: userconfig.cfg, config.cfg, etc...)
  • Marik_SteeleMarik_Steele To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members Posts: 4,202 mod
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (Rapier7 @ Feb 15 2005, 04:12 PM)
    QUOTE (Marik Steele @ Feb 15 2005, 04:09 PM)
    There's a few factors that go into that short statement.

    The overall goal interface-wise is to make the combination of the offline menus and in-game user interface friendly and thorough enough that most console commands you would want to use would be redundant.  For examples, the popup menu lets you do everything from communicate to drop your weapon, and the keyboard configuration menu now gives you the option to bind keys to "build <chamber type>" and "evolve <upgrade>."

    Another part of that statement refers to how we're continually trying to improve gameplay to make some commands irrelevant.  For example, "kill" in the console is only useful for unsticking purposes and strategic decisions to relocate an individual at a loss of the equipment he or she is using.  A system where stuck problems don't happen (map-specific bugs are being fixed all the time) and choosing to use kill in console isn't strategically viable (sometimes map-specific, sometimes balance related) is preferable.

    Nice evasion.

    You still haven't said anything about my main point (which I admit, I did not explicitly say, though it was implied), which was scripting. Sure, I really don't care about the stuff you just said, but is this statement regarding the stance of console and configs (scripting) of the NS Dev team true?

    The two points in my above post were paraphrased -- as directly as my memory allows -- from the last time I remember talking about that specific part of the FAQ on one of the team's internal forums. This was some time ago.

    Now that the intended topic of the thread has become more clear, *phased* from General to Scripting Discussion.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    former NS community lead (back in the days of NS1, in between Nemesis Zero and Comprox)
  • DepotDepot The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members Posts: 6,411 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Photek @ Feb 15 2005, 05:23 PM)
    QUOTE (kwikloader @ Feb 15 2005, 04:09 PM)
    CAL allows custom .cfg files? Saying their league.cfg does not need to be executed?

    I dont quite understand what it is your saying. But from my understanding if you're asking if the cal.cfg file needs to be excecuted then yes, it does. However, I was refering to the client, not the server, in my above post. "client" (eg: userconfig.cfg, config.cfg, etc...)

    My apologies, I was working on my server as I typed that, so was in my server op mode ... lol
    image
    modNS Forums - NS1 and NS2: We Wrote The Book On NS Moddingimage
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 12,842
    The mentioned FAQ line is from the days of NS 1.0x, so there has been a little movement since then. As Marik said, the general aim is to make commands outside the interface obsolete. Since this turns out to be quite difficult indeed, in no small part thanks to the extreme customizability of the HL engine, scripts and most console commands are tolerated (though there's of course the option of changing this for one's server). In a perfect world, you wouldn't need scripts in NS. In reality - well, we're on it.
    QUOTE
    And if I haven't seen further, it's because those bloody giants have blocked my sight.
  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members Posts: 1,216 Fully active user
    Okay, so then...one more question.

    Can you take that off the FAQ, or at least update it with what you've currently said?
    RAHHH!!! BUFF SKULKS!
  • MrRadicalEdMrRadicalEd Turrent Master Join Date: 2004-08-13 Member: 30601Members Posts: 716 Fully active user
    I don't know about that perfect world you describe, Nemesis Zero, but in my perfect world I would still want to use scripts.
    What if we crowdfund the Director's Chair?
  • Renegade.Renegade. Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation Posts: 1,206
    I think we need to recognize the two distinct aspects of scripting:

    1) Convenience Scripting
    2) Skill Scripting

    It's #2 that so many people have quarrels about.

    1) Convenience Scripting:
    This includes the common things that make otherwise finiky tasks convenient. An example from my script collection would be such things as:
    - a volume script, that alternates in-game volume between two levelsat the push of a button
    - a config file that sets up class-specific binds (this way you can save critical keys for use with specific classes)
    - mute script to mute ingame volume
    - voice loopback script to test your mic volume
    etc

    2) Skill Scripting
    This includes scripts that remove or greatly reduce the requirement of skill to perform the related action, such as:
    - pistol script (it takes skill to click your mouse button fast and consistent and aim, pistol script doesn't)
    - pancake script (it takes skill to avoid getting shot as a lerk, scripted pancaking doesn't)
    - wiggle script (it takes skill to pound your strafe keys in quick succesion, scripted wiggling doesn't)
    - blink/swipe and leap/bite script (it takes skill to switch between weapons quickly, but not with this script)

    Thus, I doubt the aforementioned pop-up menus, chamber dropping binds are in question. It's the pistol scripting and pancaking etc. that are the real issue.

    p.s. personally I dislike "skill scripts", infact I loathe them. However I do use some of them... why? Because it is evident that, especially in the competitive scene, those who don't, are left behind.
    "Why can i never be a SKUL or an ONOS why am i always a REIN?" - me, NS 1.0
    When you won't do it for support... Do It For Black Armour
    ns nostalgia • missing: pc gaming
  • Marik_SteeleMarik_Steele To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members Posts: 4,202 mod
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (MrRadicalEd @ Feb 15 2005, 04:32 PM)
    I don't know about that perfect world you describe, Nemesis Zero, but in my perfect world I would still want to use scripts.

    "What are you trying to tell me? That I can use scripts?"
    "No, NSPlayer. I'm trying to tell you that when we've had our way with the Engine, you won't have to"
    [/MatrixMovieRipoff]
    former NS community lead (back in the days of NS1, in between Nemesis Zero and Comprox)
  • MrRadicalEdMrRadicalEd Turrent Master Join Date: 2004-08-13 Member: 30601Members Posts: 716 Fully active user
    uh huh..

    and everyone would be using the same key configuration, mouse sensitivity, and monitor gamma too..
    What if we crowdfund the Director's Chair?
  • Marik_SteeleMarik_Steele To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members Posts: 4,202 mod
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (MrRadicalEd @ Feb 15 2005, 04:50 PM)
    uh huh..

    and everyone would be using the same key configuration, mouse sensitivity, and monitor gamma too..

    That's a bit of an exaggeration on your part, because neither side of the scripting debate argues over your right to use the offline menus to change control buttons and mouse sensitivity. As for gamma, that's also in the menus; whether or not a person is using it to fix a computer-specific problem or give themself some sort of advantage is an issue of player honor and honesty.
    former NS community lead (back in the days of NS1, in between Nemesis Zero and Comprox)
  • MrRadicalEdMrRadicalEd Turrent Master Join Date: 2004-08-13 Member: 30601Members Posts: 716 Fully active user
    Well in some people's minds a perfect world would be that every player use the same interface and controls to play the game just so there is no question of exploits and cheatings, and I was speaking about monitor gamma not the engines'. The same can be said about forced mouse sensitivity hardware wise.
    What if we crowdfund the Director's Chair?
  • Renegade.Renegade. Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation Posts: 1,206
    you guys are arguing foolishly about things that could be changed without quarrel. No one cares if you make a script that binds f3 to build an OC, no one cares if you make a script to bind kp_ins to carapace upgrade. Perhaps you should read my post again. ^^

    QUOTE
    I think we need to recognize the two distinct aspects of scripting:

    1) Convenience Scripting
    2) Skill Scripting

    It's #2 that so many people have quarrels about.

    1) Convenience Scripting:
    This includes the common things that make otherwise finiky tasks convenient.  An example from my script collection would be such things as:
    - a volume script, that alternates in-game volume between two levelsat the push of a button
    - a config file that sets up class-specific binds (this way you can save critical keys for use with specific classes)
    - mute script to mute ingame volume
    - voice loopback script to test your mic volume
    etc

    2) Skill Scripting
    This includes scripts that remove or greatly reduce the requirement of skill to perform the related action, such as:
    - pistol script (it takes skill to click your mouse button fast and consistent and aim, pistol script doesn't)
    - pancake script (it takes skill to avoid getting shot as a lerk, scripted pancaking doesn't)
    - wiggle script (it takes skill to pound your strafe keys in quick succesion, scripted wiggling doesn't)
    - blink/swipe and leap/bite script (it takes skill to switch between weapons quickly, but not with this script)

    Thus, I doubt the aforementioned pop-up menus, chamber dropping binds are in question.  It's the pistol scripting and pancaking etc. that are the real issue.

    p.s. personally I dislike "skill scripts", infact I loathe them.  However I do use some of them... why? Because it is evident that, especially in the competitive scene, those who don't, are left behind.
    "Why can i never be a SKUL or an ONOS why am i always a REIN?" - me, NS 1.0
    When you won't do it for support... Do It For Black Armour
    ns nostalgia • missing: pc gaming
  • obuhobuh Not Quite Smart at NS Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15072Members, Constellation Posts: 701
    Just let people who want to script script, and those who don't want to, not use them. I don't care what config or what hardware or what scripts people play the game with. I'd say it's up to every individual to choose how he wants to play, and preferably without being forced by arbitrary rules.
    Psalm 121
    1I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
    2My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth
    .
    Psalm 145
    18The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
    19He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them
    .
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation Posts: 2,462
    With the exception of the wiggle script and the pistol script (the latter doesn't help that much, trust me), the so caleld "skill" script suck **** and no competitve players use them simply for the fact using them will get you killed. You have no control when you use the "skill scripts" and other good players will take advantage of this and kill you.
    Read my idea on armor!
    http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=90736

    QUOTE (Ambrosek @ Mar 23 2005, 07:53 PM)
    You Can Never Win In Clan Match Which is SC start
  • ReKReK Join Date: 2004-08-30 Member: 31058Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 708 Advanced user
    Scripting = customization.

    It can be used to gain an unfair advantage, just like gamma, models and mouse sens. But, if used correctly, they are for customization/fixing hardware problems. I don't think the entire scripting community should be punished just because some people use scripts maliciously. I do agree that we need to stop them, but not at the expense of players who are following the rules.

    And as for "making so people won't have to script." Frankly, bull. People will always want to, in some cases have to (hardware problems, disabilities) script. You can make all the menus you want, but people will always bind stuff to keys and make multiple binds. It's more convenient and practical for those who know how. And it isn't an unfair advantage because all commands it uses are perfectly legal and anyone can learn to script. If they say they can't they're probably just too lazy to. Even if they are, other scripters, myself included, are often happy to help.
    Jumping send out a big hank cyclone, it will eddy original location in gallinaceous body, and pinch three times, opponent
  • Renegade.Renegade. Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation Posts: 1,206
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (Church @ Feb 16 2005, 10:29 AM)
    With the exception of the wiggle script and the pistol script (the latter doesn't help that much, trust me), the so caleld "skill" script suck **** and no competitve players use them simply for the fact using them will get you killed.  You have no control when you use the "skill scripts" and other good players will take advantage of this and kill you.

    You can't say "with the exception of wiggle and pistol scripts" That *IS* the basic two fundamental scripts of skill scripting, and you cannot merely brush them aside. Just about EVERY competitive NS player uses a skill script of some sort, most likely being a pistol script (including myself).

    QUOTE
    Just let people who want to script script, and those who don't want to, not use them. I don't care what config or what hardware or what scripts people play the game with. I'd say it's up to every individual to choose how he wants to play, and preferably without being forced by arbitrary rules.

    As for letting people play the way they want to, you can't make a consistent arguement around that statement, because then where do you draw the line? Let them script, okay, then should we let them script an exploit, okay, then should we let them eventually hack? etc. Where do you draw the line?
    "Why can i never be a SKUL or an ONOS why am i always a REIN?" - me, NS 1.0
    When you won't do it for support... Do It For Black Armour
    ns nostalgia • missing: pc gaming
  • Renegade.Renegade. Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation Posts: 1,206
    edited February 2005
    wow, I knew some idiot would read that as such. I am not comparing scripts to hacks, read into it more than skin deep. It is foolish to deny that on a linear scale of gaming modification/customization (which is what scripting is), scripting is closer down the line to hacking, since scripting is customizing and hacking is the TOTAL extreme of gaming modification and customization. observe:

    FactoryFresh
    binds
    scripts
    exploits
    hacks

    where "binds" is the neutral zone.

    now, do you see anywhere that it says that scripts are directly related to hacks? no.

    Just because you have a gun, doesn't mean you have a bullet in it, and just because you have a bullet in it, doesn't mean you're going to shoot someone.

    Just because you have a script doesn't mean you use it to exploit, and just because you have an exploit, doesn't mean you use it to hack.

    but, it would be foolish to deny that each previous statement facilitates the latter.
    "Why can i never be a SKUL or an ONOS why am i always a REIN?" - me, NS 1.0
    When you won't do it for support... Do It For Black Armour
    ns nostalgia • missing: pc gaming
  • Router_BoxRouter_Box Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 638
    QUOTE (milosis @ Feb 17 2005, 10:35 AM)
    you're an idiot

    I love scripting threads.

    Milo I like the bs0 comment in your sig.

    I score better on mp_bs1 servers than I do on lets say #EGN or Crayon's or WnF's co servers. I'll let you infer why.
    IPB Image
  • TaaketaTaaketa Join Date: 2004-02-10 Member: 26357Members Posts: 202
    edited February 2005
    I concur with Renegade. Having been a Q3 player since its release and being a CPMA player, I have to agree that in NS skill scripts are something that kill the atmosphere in the game.

    In CPMA the rule was simple, if you can do it, do it. In NS the rule has been clearly laid down.

    Don't do it, you don't need it and thats a simple rule people have failed to follow.

    I use a few binds, OCs are binded to K, DCs to L, MCs to M and SC to N on my keyboard.

    T is now my in game menu, and q is switch to next weapon and Mouse 2 is switch to pervious weapon, so in combat I don't have to move my fingers off the movement keys when it gets tight quarters.
    I can empty my pistol switch to LMG and then switch to knife. And I hear people talking about using a script for all that when I use a simple mouse button :s

    But seriously if the arguements so far for "skill scripts" are "Stop comparing scripts to hacks." or "You're an idiot." I'll stay with the people who are intelligent.
    Left NS due to player bases being better in other games.
  • GrahfGrahf Join Date: 2004-01-21 Member: 25558Members Posts: 226
    QUOTE

    FactoryFresh
    binds
    scripts
    exploits
    hacks

    According to your amazing chart right here it apears that scripting would be the neutral zone, no?


    __


    There are very few competetive players that I know use a pistol script, and it doesnt help the ones that do much. And since you use one you should know that it doesnt work correctly 50 percent of the time.

    The "wiggle walk" can just as easly be done without a script. But because the script does it so fast it will be a LITTLE faster but not much. If I wanted to I could bind mousewheel up to +moveleft and mousewheel down to +moveright and go just as fast as the script can without locking up(It doesnt take skill to spin a wheel, and the script will lock your controls up when you use it.).

    I dont really see how you think these give people "skill", they can help newer players do better but eventually they all just limit the player once they start to get good(with the exception of the wiggle walk I guess, but I find that script close to useless anyways).

    -Who cares if this is off topic.-
  • c4tc4t Join Date: 2003-09-06 Member: 20619Members Posts: 383
    scripting isnt bad, i agree with most of what the bs_0 people say.








    only scripts that i see as harmful are produced using _special which is removed anyway b6.


    after this the closest thing to harmful is a simple pistol script.




    nobody is stopping anybody from scripting, anybody can script its not like some players can and some players cant.


    its all about personal preference
    QUOTE(obuh @ Mar 23 2005, 06:24 AM)
    Cloaking counters fun. lol.
  • ReKReK Join Date: 2004-08-30 Member: 31058Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 708 Advanced user
    Wigglewalk. I have it, I don't use it because it's much better to just spam a and d.
    Pistol: I have it, I don't use it because it's too unweildly. And, If you don't get the fps and waits right, you can be stuck firing an empty clip.

    For both of those, the two main "skill" scripts, it is much better to use the non-scripted version. They both lock up your controls while using them, and they are inflexible.

    The only scripts that are somewhat comparable to hacks are those that use _special, because it gives you the full benefits of a normal script without the balancing drawback of having your controls locked up. You can stop complaining about these scripts now because _special is totally blocked in b6.

    Why don't you anti-scripters stay out of the scripting forum or, better yet, concentrate on something productive, like actual hacking and getting VAC running on NS.
    Jumping send out a big hank cyclone, it will eddy original location in gallinaceous body, and pinch three times, opponent
  • Renegade.Renegade. Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation Posts: 1,206
    QUOTE (Grahf @ Feb 17 2005, 02:53 PM)
    QUOTE

    FactoryFresh
    binds
    scripts
    exploits
    hacks

    According to your amazing chart right here it apears that scripting would be the neutral zone, no?

    There are very few competetive players that I know use a pistol script, and it doesnt help the ones that do much. And since you use one you should know that it doesnt work correctly 50 percent of the time.

    The "wiggle walk" can just as easly be done without a script. But because the script does it so fast it will be a LITTLE faster but not much. If I wanted to I could bind mousewheel up to +moveleft and mousewheel down to +moveright and go just as fast as the script can without locking up(It doesnt take skill to spin a wheel, and the script will lock your controls up when you use it.).

    I dont really see how you think these give people "skill", they can help newer players do better but eventually they all just limit the player once they start to get good(with the exception of the wiggle walk I guess, but I find that script close to useless anyways).

    -Who cares if this is off topic.-

    If you actually read my post, you'd see that I declared "binds" as the neutral zone.

    -1
    0
    1
    2

    much like 0 here is the neutral.

    As for competitive players, you have been gravely mistaken. I'd say 85% of the clans we've scrimmed have at least 1-3 or all members that pistol script. And we've scrimmed both Delta and Omega NS clans.

    As for wiggle walking, I've created my own wiggle script that is the most effective if not, as effective, wiggle script out there and I can assure you that, no one, even a mousewheel strafer, can wiggle as fast as my wiggle script. It makes a marine with a knife run at 304 units/sec, a skulk runs at 290. So I can virtually outrun a skulk with my knife out.

    As for skill bonuses, I can personally tell you that, as a result of my pistol script I can kill as many as 3 more skulks and can increase my chances of killing a running fade by 50%. As for my wiggle script, perhaps a quote says it best: "WTH HOW'd he get there so fast!! I wasn't expecting him there!!", and it has other various perks such as being able to outrun an onos who is trying to devour you.

    Although I do agree with you that most scripts (pancake, blink, leap, etc) just limit a good player, it is important to realize that certain scripts (such as pistol and wiggle) make a good player near perfect.
    "Why can i never be a SKUL or an ONOS why am i always a REIN?" - me, NS 1.0
    When you won't do it for support... Do It For Black Armour
    ns nostalgia • missing: pc gaming
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