Not sure off the top of my head what the crouch-jump height is. Best way is to build a small room with a table and see what height the table needs to be before the Marine can get onto it. Or you could try the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=5063670608799668224&showforum=34" target="_blank">Mapping Help and Troubleshooting Forum</a>.
For other damage, speed, range, etc. values; see the [...]Steam\steamapps\xxxxxxx\half-life\nsp\Balance.txt file.
You can choose any texture for the vents, just make sure you try to use a different texture for vents vs. corridors so you don't confuse players or commanders. Lighting the vents red is a common way of distinguishing them as vents and not proper corridors, but that rule doesn't always have to be followed. The vent systems in Nancy are blue, in Nothing/Sava/Hera they're red. In Ayumi all the vents you can weld mostly have no distinguishing features, but most non-weldable vents are clearly marked with red lighting, apart from 1 or 2 vents that are left in the dark. Eclipse and Veil also use a mix of vents that are clearly visible and 'stealth vents' that are hidden behind cables or in shadow. One interesting thing that KFS has done with the vents in Veil particularly, is have a bright light that comes into view as you approach the vent, so <a href="http://crispy.nuclear-dawn.net/Misc/veil_vents1.PNG" target="_blank">you won't take note</a> <a href="http://crispy.nuclear-dawn.net/Misc/veil_vents2.PNG" target="_blank">until you're close up</a>. This is a neat trick that means Marines new to the map will get a bit too close to vent exits before they realise they're standing next to a vent, but by then they have a Skulk clamped onto their leg and it's too late! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
P.S. Apologies for not gamma correcting those screenshots. They're a bit dark but they tell the story just as well.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited February 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1605930:date=Feb 12 2007, 06:11 PM:name=PastryTheft)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PastryTheft @ Feb 12 2007, 06:11 PM) [snapback]1605930[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and what is the height for venthop to be available to marines (like the vent in MS on the map ns_nothing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I assume you mean bunnyhopping in vents.
The minimum height is just greater than the height of the ducking marine's hull, 36 units. However, unless you want to make people jump 18.6 times per second* (for height 37), you'll want to set the height significantly higher.
The maximum height depends on the marine's loadout. For a marine with no weapons (base speed 220), the maximum height should be 66 units. For a marine with default loadout (LMG active - base speed 203 if I recall correctly), the maximum height should be 61 units. For a decently loaded shotgun (base speed ~180?), the maximum height should be ~56 units. For the heaviest possible loadout (base speed 166), the maximum height should be 53 units. (I say "should" because I haven't tested any of this.)
Skip the rest of the post if you're not interested in the technical details:
The explanation is that a marine can bunnyhop on landing if the magnitude of the vertical component of his velocity is less than his base run speed.
A marine jumping in a vent falls from the ceiling with no initial downward velocity. At the moment he touches the ceiling, the bottom of his hull is 36 units below the ceiling, so if the ceiling is at height h, the bottom of the marine's hull is at height h - 36 units. The acceleration due to gravity (for default sv_gravity of 800) is 800 units/second^2.
We ignore any horizontal movement, as it is irrelevant. The marine is then falling from height h - 36 u with initial velocity 0 but constant acceleration 800 u/s^2 downward. Thus if v is the marine's downward velocity upon hitting the ground,
v^2 = 2*(800 u/s^2)*(h - 36 u) (v^2)/(1600 u/s^2) = h - 36 u h = (v^2)/(1600 u/s^2) + 36 u
(u is the HL unit of distance; s is the second)
To be able to bunnyhop, v must be less than the marine's base speed. Thus, to find the maximum vent height h, we simply plug the marine's base speed into v.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(For a few other pieces of obscure experimentally-derived technical information about NS you can see <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97790" target="_blank">this thread</a>, though only two of them could relate to mapping.)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Edit:<!--quoteo(post=1606465:date=Feb 14 2007, 07:46 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 14 2007, 07:46 AM) [snapback]1606465[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure off the top of my head what the crouch-jump height is. Best way is to build a small room with a table and see what height the table needs to be before the Marine can get onto it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The jump speed of everything in the game that jumps is 268 units/second, so the maximum height attained (by the bottom of the hull) is:
h = ((268 u/s)^2)/(2*800 u/s^2) = 44.89 u = 44 units
Still ironic though, that all of the main competitive maps fail on SO MANY of the points <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />.
The one map I don't really get much play on is the CAL version of Orbital, so I don't know about that, but other than that the maps I'd consider to mostly fit these rules are: Eclipse, Veil, Tanith and probably Lucid and Metal. I'd even say Eon fits the guidelines but I don't think it gets played competitively so I'll have to look into why that is and adapt the guidelines to reflect that.
In Lost, Alpha Continuum Hive only has 1 Onos exit until welded.
In Caged, Sewer Hive has 2 ladder exits and Vent Hive has ladders and an elevator exit
In Nothing, Vent ([Edit] Viaduct) Hive has ONE ladder exit (and technically 2 vent exits if you can get there without being shot, and that's before we even start on the red room)
In Hera, Vent Hive has ladder issues.
Origin has small Marine start issues and ladder issues in Vent Hive (although the remake is waaaay better than the original)
In Shiva, Datacore and Water Collant Hives have ladder issues.
In Bast, Feedwater Hive has ladder issues and Vent Hive is massive.
Machina is just a tad too big.
Ayumi is a lost cause and probably has the worst Hives in the game along with Nancy.
---
However, all that said, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2007
Eon and Lucid not being played much competitively is probably just a case of late arrival. It takes a long time for competitive players to embrace new maps, even when forced to play them by competition organizers, for some strange reason.
Good job on the guidelines, although it is surprising to see someone who's never played competitive make them (not intended in a negative way).
There is one thing I'm leaving out, and that's his suggestion of leaving a gap behind the CC to allow Commanders to get behind it to face the rest of the MS when they exit. If a Commander can get behind it, a Fade or a Skulk can, which could give valuable health/adren regen time (realistically in Competitive play there is no chance of them 'hiding' there). Plus I gather you can boost a Commander into the CC at the start of a map for CC jumping, so it seems like there is a solution.
The next part I will get round to will probably be about clipping and detailed architecture. The absolute most annoying thing that can happen is to get killed by just clipping a bit of architecture when it could be either flat or slanted to not hinder movement. Take Team Fortress 2, for example: have you ever got caught on anything at ground level? This is because it has been clipped meticulously to turn what looks like 90 degree angles into gentle, sloping architecture.
Why thank ye. This is on a list of a few things I need to A) finish and B) HTML up.
It will probably take the form of an update for NS2 once we know more about how it plays. If NS2 ends up playing completely differently I'll keep these guidelines separate in case there is a need for an 'NS Classic' mod for NS2.
Well, now NS2 is out we should probably revamp this guide.
Please add any comments of stuff you'd like to hear about. Also if you think there are very different approaches between NS1 and NS2 in terms of some of the elements covered here, add a comment.
Comments
64x64x108 : Onos
32x32x36 : Skulk, Lerk, Gorge, Marine (crouched), Fade (crouched)
Not sure off the top of my head what the crouch-jump height is. Best way is to build a small room with a table and see what height the table needs to be before the Marine can get onto it. Or you could try the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=5063670608799668224&showforum=34" target="_blank">Mapping Help and Troubleshooting Forum</a>.
For other damage, speed, range, etc. values; see the [...]Steam\steamapps\xxxxxxx\half-life\nsp\Balance.txt file.
You can choose any texture for the vents, just make sure you try to use a different texture for vents vs. corridors so you don't confuse players or commanders. Lighting the vents red is a common way of distinguishing them as vents and not proper corridors, but that rule doesn't always have to be followed. The vent systems in Nancy are blue, in Nothing/Sava/Hera they're red. In Ayumi all the vents you can weld mostly have no distinguishing features, but most non-weldable vents are clearly marked with red lighting, apart from 1 or 2 vents that are left in the dark. Eclipse and Veil also use a mix of vents that are clearly visible and 'stealth vents' that are hidden behind cables or in shadow. One interesting thing that KFS has done with the vents in Veil particularly, is have a bright light that comes into view as you approach the vent, so <a href="http://crispy.nuclear-dawn.net/Misc/veil_vents1.PNG" target="_blank">you won't take note</a> <a href="http://crispy.nuclear-dawn.net/Misc/veil_vents2.PNG" target="_blank">until you're close up</a>. This is a neat trick that means Marines new to the map will get a bit too close to vent exits before they realise they're standing next to a vent, but by then they have a Skulk clamped onto their leg and it's too late! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
P.S. Apologies for not gamma correcting those screenshots. They're a bit dark but they tell the story just as well.
I assume you mean bunnyhopping in vents.
The minimum height is just greater than the height of the ducking marine's hull, 36 units. However, unless you want to make people jump 18.6 times per second* (for height 37), you'll want to set the height significantly higher.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->* 1/((-268+sqrt(268^2-4*400))/(-800)+sqrt(2/800)) = 18.6<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The maximum height depends on the marine's loadout. For a marine with no weapons (base speed 220), the maximum height should be 66 units. For a marine with default loadout (LMG active - base speed 203 if I recall correctly), the maximum height should be 61 units. For a decently loaded shotgun (base speed ~180?), the maximum height should be ~56 units. For the heaviest possible loadout (base speed 166), the maximum height should be 53 units. (I say "should" because I haven't tested any of this.)
Skip the rest of the post if you're not interested in the technical details:
The explanation is that a marine can bunnyhop on landing if the magnitude of the vertical component of his velocity is less than his base run speed.
A marine jumping in a vent falls from the ceiling with no initial downward velocity. At the moment he touches the ceiling, the bottom of his hull is 36 units below the ceiling, so if the ceiling is at height h, the bottom of the marine's hull is at height h - 36 units. The acceleration due to gravity (for default sv_gravity of 800) is 800 units/second^2.
We ignore any horizontal movement, as it is irrelevant. The marine is then falling from height h - 36 u with initial velocity 0 but constant acceleration 800 u/s^2 downward. Thus if v is the marine's downward velocity upon hitting the ground,
v^2 = 2*(800 u/s^2)*(h - 36 u)
(v^2)/(1600 u/s^2) = h - 36 u
h = (v^2)/(1600 u/s^2) + 36 u
(u is the HL unit of distance; s is the second)
To be able to bunnyhop, v must be less than the marine's base speed. Thus, to find the maximum vent height h, we simply plug the marine's base speed into v.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(For a few other pieces of obscure experimentally-derived technical information about NS you can see <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97790" target="_blank">this thread</a>, though only two of them could relate to mapping.)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Edit:<!--quoteo(post=1606465:date=Feb 14 2007, 07:46 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 14 2007, 07:46 AM) [snapback]1606465[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure off the top of my head what the crouch-jump height is. Best way is to build a small room with a table and see what height the table needs to be before the Marine can get onto it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The jump speed of everything in the game that jumps is 268 units/second, so the maximum height attained (by the bottom of the hull) is:
h = ((268 u/s)^2)/(2*800 u/s^2) = 44.89 u = 44 units
Updated section: Hive Rooms
Began work on section: Marine Start
Still ironic though, that all of the main competitive maps fail on SO MANY of the points <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />.
In Lost, Alpha Continuum Hive only has 1 Onos exit until welded.
In Caged, Sewer Hive has 2 ladder exits and Vent Hive has ladders and an elevator exit
In Nothing, Vent ([Edit] Viaduct) Hive has ONE ladder exit (and technically 2 vent exits if you can get there without being shot, and that's before we even start on the red room)
In Hera, Vent Hive has ladder issues.
Origin has small Marine start issues and ladder issues in Vent Hive (although the remake is waaaay better than the original)
In Shiva, Datacore and Water Collant Hives have ladder issues.
In Bast, Feedwater Hive has ladder issues and Vent Hive is massive.
Machina is just a tad too big.
Ayumi is a lost cause and probably has the worst Hives in the game along with Nancy.
---
However, all that said, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Good job on the guidelines, although it is surprising to see someone who's never played competitive make them (not intended in a negative way).
There is one thing I'm leaving out, and that's his suggestion of leaving a gap behind the CC to allow Commanders to get behind it to face the rest of the MS when they exit. If a Commander can get behind it, a Fade or a Skulk can, which could give valuable health/adren regen time (realistically in Competitive play there is no chance of them 'hiding' there). Plus I gather you can boost a Commander into the CC at the start of a map for CC jumping, so it seems like there is a solution.
The next part I will get round to will probably be about clipping and detailed architecture. The absolute most annoying thing that can happen is to get killed by just clipping a bit of architecture when it could be either flat or slanted to not hinder movement. Take Team Fortress 2, for example: have you ever got caught on anything at ground level? This is because it has been clipped meticulously to turn what looks like 90 degree angles into gentle, sloping architecture.
It will probably take the form of an update for NS2 once we know more about how it plays. If NS2 ends up playing completely differently I'll keep these guidelines separate in case there is a need for an 'NS Classic' mod for NS2.
Please add any comments of stuff you'd like to hear about. Also if you think there are very different approaches between NS1 and NS2 in terms of some of the elements covered here, add a comment.