Maps-1.04-3.0b5
SDJason
Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16841Members
Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16841Members
<div class="IPBDescription">General Map changes, good and bad</div> Ive recently gotten the opportunity to play on several servers with old maps put into B5....
Things ive noticed about B5 maps, good and bad....
Good: The maps have become less linear, with many more pathways to different areas of the maps, this is good and allows for more variety, mobility, ect.
Bad: Maps used to be SO MUCH DARKER, now they are like star trek, whereas before they were akin to the alien series.. I miss the darker maps, as it was both more atmospheric, and more better suited to skulks....
In B5, i think darker maps would have done a lot balance wise, however now with B6 and the cloak updgrade i think it would serve to tip it in the aliens favor.....
Still though, i miss the darker maps, and i never really noticed how severe it was until i went on a server and we played 1.04 version followed by the B5 version right away... it was so much brighter, it almost hurt my eyes
just my thoughts/observations.... comments?
~Jason
Things ive noticed about B5 maps, good and bad....
Good: The maps have become less linear, with many more pathways to different areas of the maps, this is good and allows for more variety, mobility, ect.
Bad: Maps used to be SO MUCH DARKER, now they are like star trek, whereas before they were akin to the alien series.. I miss the darker maps, as it was both more atmospheric, and more better suited to skulks....
In B5, i think darker maps would have done a lot balance wise, however now with B6 and the cloak updgrade i think it would serve to tip it in the aliens favor.....
Still though, i miss the darker maps, and i never really noticed how severe it was until i went on a server and we played 1.04 version followed by the B5 version right away... it was so much brighter, it almost hurt my eyes
just my thoughts/observations.... comments?
~Jason
Comments
I've taken the time to generate the minimaps for all the maps we use. They download automatically along with the map file. We have url downloading enabled so the download time is very short.
To nominate a specific map just "say mapname"
The naming scheme is as follows:
Version 1.0 maps:
ns_mapnamev1
Version 2.0 maps:
ns_mapnamev2
Version 3.0 maps:
ns_mapname
Come check out all your old favorites at:
Sleepless Classics 3.0
66.235.180.227:27015
PS: parasites on our server can operate elevators and doors again <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Everyone, and anyone playing it, was relatively new and really just spent most of the time just absorbing the game, and really just taking it in.
Now, we're all seasoned, and many people have been playign NS for quite some time, so we're much more critical of EVERYTHING, gameplay, map design, etc.
But to answer your question:
Yes, 1.04 maps were da bomb, it was much more atmospheric and well... scary lol. First time I played, I remember almost crapping my pants when I was going down a dark hallway, and 3 skulks jumped outta nowhere and killed me.
But hey, the community has grown, and changed since 1.04, and brighter maps were essential for new players to get used to the game easier (in my opinion). Gameplay > purtyness.
I agree, I'd like to hear something about that too.
(Original Post Here <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86572&view=findpost&p=1352203' target='_blank'>here.</a>)
And a lot of this is up to the mappers as well. Though if you ask them, they will tell you when they attempt to make things darker, they recieve lots of complaints, to the point that the map won't get played at all.
*coughAltaircough*
please tell me you left the super dark spot pipes in the top right hive <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually, I believe most people don't play Altair is because they can't adapt to anything new in a game called Natural Selection. One of my all time favorite ironys about this game.
If you have some good, quality feedback on Altair I would be happy to take it into account and see what I can do just as any of the other level designers will take your feedback and see what they can improve on their maps. Most of the time we just get flamed with over generalizations which just wastes our time.
No, its pretty much because of the darkness and confusing layout. Brightening altair will give people who dont ramp their gamma all the way up a chance. Giving rooms very clear landmarks will help them learn the layout (varying the textures and colour of lighting helps tons). Removing the fake ladders would lessen people's anoyance.
Also currently its very easy to completely miss the other team because the central areas aren't clearly defined. Tighten up the areas between the hives and marine start so both teams are brought together. For example ns_tanith. You cant go to waste without passing right through or just above double. You cant go to fusion without going through or just above cargo. You cant go to sat without going through chem (or welding which is given away by the screen shake).
Hows that for a bit of construtive critism. I'll probably do a more detailed analysis of the new altair if people complain about that too.
Let those guys boost their gamma. I dont <i>care</i> about their experience, I care about <i>mine.</i> They still boost their gamma reguardless, so there is no difference. If I want darkness, well god damn let us people that want it have it!
Let those guys boost their gamma. I dont <i>care</i> about their experience, I care about <i>mine.</i> They still boost their gamma reguardless, so there is no difference. If I want darkness, well god damn let us people that want it have it! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why dont you turn your gamma down? Problem solved!
You mean the official version? I have nothing else to go on, sorry <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Let those guys boost their gamma. I dont <i>care</i> about their experience, I care about <i>mine.</i> They still boost their gamma reguardless, so there is no difference. If I want darkness, well god damn let us people that want it have it! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the numbers go both ways, smarty. set lightgamma to 7 for the ultimate goddamn gaming experience in ns.
if you need any help tweaking gamma feel free to ask here or irc =o
Link to your site?
Link to your site? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://kungfudiscomonkey.net/' target='_blank'>http://kungfudiscomonkey.net/</a>
Actually, I believe most people don't play Altair is because they can't adapt to anything new in a game called Natural Selection. One of my all time favorite ironys about this game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
omg, change, SCATTER!
My suggestions for improving the layout: nix the fake doors. It's very hard to tell by the minimap where doors are and where walls are, because the rooms share walls that may or may not contain doors. The fake doors don't help this. Also, make a new minimap somehow that shows the extensive vents in a different color. I know people have done this with other maps, I'm wondering if it's been done for Altair. Once the map gets played a little more, I think you'll get better feedback on what changes need to be made to the layout.
as previously noted, the false doors and ladders don't help. they create wonderful atmosphere and make the setting look very real, but don't help playability and actually hinder it.
it also suffers from "every room looks pretty much the same" syndrome. someone else mentioned that more distinct textures may help. for example, you could try deviating from the "very gritty, mechanical, and dark" design concept in one whole section of the map, to make it stand out and easier to learn.
more distinct landmarks as well.
I'm sure you know that a lot of the most popular maps (veil, tanith, eclipse, etc) have a more gameplay-oriented design. specifically a map like veil, which is essentially your most basic NS map (marine spawn leading to three hives with no really unique traits about it and a center-of-map double node).
none of those is as pretty as altair by a long shot, but... they have mass appeal with their simplicity of design. something to consider.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift Idiot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There has to be some other reason nobody plays Altair other than it's dark. You're saying the NS community can be that driven by mass consent? The map has to be unbalanced in some way. I can't imagine the only reason it doesn't see any play is because it's dark. That's wow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is, of course, in reference to the Beta5 version of the map, but across the board the two reasons people state for not liking Altair are: "too dark" and "too big." And "too big" is a comment that is generally hurled at every single map aside from Eclipse, usually without any regard to the actual size of said map (they are <b>all</b> too big, and <b>all</b> have too many res nodes <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->). The Beta5 version of Altair was significanly darker than any other official map, and while thats great for hiding as a skulk, it just becomes difficult for everything else. I really think the darkness of B5 Altair was what turned lots of people off, and KFDM has really worked on this a lot for Beta6.
<!--QuoteBegin-Haze+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haze)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let those guys boost their gamma. I dont care about their experience, I care about mine. They still boost their gamma reguardless, so there is no difference. If I want darkness, well god damn let us people that want it have it!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A very altruistic opinion, but I'm not sure its very realistic. I've been accussed of gamma-hacking (!?) more times then I dare count, and I doubt that I'm alone. While having things dark might be beneficial for mood and atmosphere, even people who cite those things as the aspect of a game that is most important to them still want a level playing field when they play the game. What is proposed above (design the game so it looks dark, and if people want to make it brighter, let them) goes directly against that. Plus, as Flayra alluded to, there are technical difficulties of trying to make a system that works when it is dark, but still looks good when people invariably crank up the gamma so they can see what is going on.
That way everyone is on a level playing feild, and make the game change the gamma automatically so u dont fry ur eyeballs when u goto another map or go back to windows.
??
Sukit.
That way everyone is on a level playing feild, and make the game change the gamma automatically so u dont fry ur eyeballs when u goto another map or go back to windows.
??
Sukit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
where do people get these ideas from? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is exactly what the first post was making a point about. It isn't the mappers, it's the people criticizing the maps that is determining what happens.
First, people complain a map is too dark, details like fake doors and ladders are confusing. Okay.
THEN, after the map is brightened, details like fake doors and ladders are gone, people complain that the map is too bright and dull...
I mean... what the...?
TBH, it is apparent that mappers are just frustrated with the feedback they get from the forums. It's mostly useless feedback. I think map feedback should be sorted similarly to how the I&S forum is setup. All the good ideas, suggestions, etc stay, crap gets locked/deleted. Then the guy who's working on a map can just sift through the good criticism and not waste time on the crap (unless they like doing that <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
I dunno...
Actually, I believe most people don't play Altair is because they can't adapt to anything new in a game called Natural Selection. One of my all time favorite ironys about this game.
If you have some good, quality feedback on Altair I would be happy to take it into account and see what I can do just as any of the other level designers will take your feedback and see what they can improve on their maps. Most of the time we just get flamed with over generalizations which just wastes our time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>General View on New Maps</b>
It is very hard/impossible for new maps to be accepted into the community as main stream maps. The more complicated the map the more unlikly it is to be accepted by the community. Not neccesary because the maps are bad but because learning the gameplay aspects of a complicated map takes too long.
Many mappers have a desire to map very unquie maps that will require new strategy or new and special gameplay. This is the worst kind of view you could possibly have. No aspects of a map should force unquie gameplay drasticaly diffrent than other maps. Players will reject any map that does not fit to the accepted standard of gameplay.
After anyone plays natural selection for an extended period of time, like any game, the importance of atmosphere decreases. Eventualy it comes down to the pure playability of a map. In the long run, quality gameplay proves more important than quality atmosphere. The benefits of atmosphere can actuly decrease gameplay. It is also an all around bad idea to use lighting effects to somehow balance the map. The best atmosphere is a clean, profesional, and polished feel.
Sadly, many mappers put significantly more time into atmosphere design than gameplay design and end up making awsome looking maps that are seldom played.
<b>Altair Specific</b>
Altair was placed directly into cal with virtualy no <b>competative</b> playtesting that Im aware of(I could be wrong). The competative community was not pleased with the way it played, mainly because no one spent the time to learn the map. It instantly developed a harsh reputation, worst than it deserved.
Some problems off the top of my head:
-The vents are horrible. It is extemely hard for players to learn vents on new maps when they cant see them on the map. A significant portion of the vents are not registered on the minimap.
-There is too much water. Water is bad. And gameplay in water is horrible.
-The pathways to the expected alien res towers are a little long.
-Remove the particle systems. Hives have enough fps issues because the battles that happen there, they dont need all the particle systems.
EDIT:
I timed how long it takes to get to the far hive node on several maps to test the size of altair:
altair-omega-54sec
veil-cargo-44sec (altair is 23% longer)
eclipse-com core-37sec (altair is 46% longer)
origin-vent-41sec (altair is 32% longer)
lost-cargo-38sec (altair is 42% longer)