Why Are We Here?

kida · January 2005

edit:

sorry.

Aegeri · January 2005

Are you drunk? O_o

Deus_Ex_Machina · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why Are We Here?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Who cares? That's a question nobody can ever answer with complete certainty, so why bother yourself?

If you're really depressed about this, you need to seek help, not drink liquor.

Sky · January 2005

Liquor breeds philosophers, it might seem. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

He brings up several good points, albeit in a rather...interesting...way. But basically, why we are here: To do. Anything. Just do something, make your life meaningful in your own eyes. In this you will find happiness, and not the fake happiness you get from drugs and alcohol, and the fake friends that come with them. And as long as your life means something to you at the end of the day, no one can say otherwise. Truth be told, if you live your life this way with no regrets, then you have nothing to worry about. Your mortal life will be full of happiness (not carefree or easy, there's a difference), and what God could bar you entry to Heaven? You'd lived to the best of your ability, what more could He ask?

pulk · January 2005

This is what annoys me. Everyone, I mean <b>everyone</b>, thinks that if you conquer happiness, you've made your life meaninful and worthwhile. It's become a universal idea. It's not an ignorant idea, there are some good points that pop up in its defense, but I nevertheless think it's wrong. People think I'm insane or just depressed when I tell them this, but I see my goal in life as not simply to 'be happy', but to bring happiness to others, more so than to myself. I think an all around self-denying, perhaps even masochistic attitude is virtuous as long as it's for the good of others. A good arguement to this would be 'but by making others happy, aren't you essentially making yourself happy through the happiness you give them?' My response would be that you shouldn't take pride or pleasure in what you do for others, you should simply do it because you know it's right.

Sky · January 2005

That wasn't directed at me right? I said "find something to do with your life, some meaning to your existence, and you'll find happiness", not "seek out happiness, and your life will be worthwhile." Definite difference.

pulk · January 2005

It was directed at you. The difference between "find something to do with your life, some meaning to your existence, and you'll find happiness", and "seek out happiness, and your life will be worthwhile." is irrelevant to my point, as my point puts a big blanket around both of them. My point was that you should not live to obtain happiness. Whether this happiness creates a life's meaning or is a consequence of a meaninful life, neither should appeal to a bearer of my sense of moral reasoning.

Sky · January 2005

Wow, you completely missed my point. You're railing at people who are just looking for happiness, whatever it might come from, because you personally prefer to bring happiness to others instead of seeking it out for yourself:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>People think I'm insane or just depressed when I tell them this, but I see my goal in life as not simply to 'be happy', but to bring happiness to others, more so than to myself.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A good arguement to this would be 'but by making others happy, aren't you essentially making yourself happy through the happiness you give them?'</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You've found a purpose - to bring others happiness - and in turn by fulfilling your purpose you create your own happiness. <u>Exactly</u> what I said. When you look at it this way, this comment:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Whether this happiness creates a life's meaning or is a consequence of a meaninful life, neither should appeal to a bearer of my sense of moral reasoning. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
doesn't make a whole lot of sense. According to you, your lifestyle shouldn't appeal to yourself. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

What's wrong with having fun if you happen to be helping people? Do you feel guilty? Don't. You do the best you can to help those you can help; don't feel bad if you feel like you are undeserving of something you have that others don't. Believe it or not, it's not your fault. Like I said, all anyone can ask is you do the best you can.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My point was that you should not live to obtain happiness.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Neither was mine.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The difference between "find something to do with your life, some meaning to your existence, and you'll find happiness", and "seek out happiness, and your life will be worthwhile." is irrelevant to my point, as my point puts a big blanket around both of them.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
As much as you think "cause" and "effect" are synonymous...they are in fact different. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

My interpretation of how to live is simply a broader version of yours, they do not conflict in any way.

[edit] whoa, wth happened to my quotes....

wascally_wabbit · January 2005

I forsee a lock coming....

In the end, I like the way Hobbes sums it up: <a href='http://www.progressiveboink.com/jon/images/calvinhobbes/jon7.GIF' target='_blank'>http://www.progressiveboink.com/jon/images...hobbes/jon7.GIF</a>

And why is such a serious discussion coming out of a post by someone who was half-drunk, then totally smashed when he edited the second time?

Sky · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wascally wabbit @ Jan 22 2005, 08:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I forsee a lock coming....

 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
bah, we have much more heated arguments in other threads. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And why is such a serious discussion coming out of a post by someone who was half-drunk, then totally smashed when he edited the second time?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Ironic, isn't it? I just wanted to save the thread. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

pulk · January 2005

Edit: C-mon, we all know the real debates don't start with educated first posts. The one's that present real, debatable questions never end up being any good.
/end of edit

I see a lock coming as well, by some moderator who believes in the flase idea that debating is the same as insulting eachother, or just some moderator who doesn't like debate in his/her forum. Until then...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Wow, you completely missed my point. You're railing at people who are just looking for happiness, whatever it might come from, because you personally prefer to bring happiness to others instead of seeking it out for yourself</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I don't "prefer" it, I find it morally right. I didn't choose my moral values base on what I preferred, I chose them based on what I thought was moral. I think everyone else should have these moral values as well. If I didn't, why would I be debating about it? That's what debate is - trying to inflict other people with your ideas. And I know that like everyone else I've tried to persuade of this, you will never be able to get a grasp on the following belief:

<i>One should not live to obtain pleasure.</i>

but it is a belief I assert, and for the following reasons:

<i>You are expected you be morally righteous. You should not take pride in being morally righteous. Your moral self should be a robot that knows only of morallity and nothing of emotion.</i>

That basically puts it into summary.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You've found a purpose - to bring others happiness - and in turn by fulfilling your purpose you create your own happiness.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Again, I do not create happiness for myself through moral deeds, not even through giving others happiness. It is simply what is expected of me, I don't know how else to word that. You responded to my quote about what a good arguement would be by making that exact same arguement. ? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /> ?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>doesn't make a whole lot of sense. According to you, your lifestyle shouldn't appeal to yourself.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Now THAT is what doesn't make much sense. My lifestyle is not happiness.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What's wrong with having fun if you happen to be helping people?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Nothing, but that shouldn't be why you do it. You shouldn't forfeit the chance to help someone the moment you find out you won't be getting rewarded afterall. There's nothing wrong with making yourself happy by eating a ham sandwich, but what you do in the name of morallity and what you do in the name of deriving pleasure are two completely seperate and unconnected things to me.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>don't feel bad if you feel like you are undeserving of something you have that others don't. Believe it or not, it's not your fault.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I can take a good guess and say this point was brought about more because of my basic self-denying attitude than anything else. Here's my response: when I have something I don't feel I deserve and others just as deserving as me don't have it, I don't crawl in a corner and feel bad about myself, I go out and use what I have for the good of others. The minute I win $1 million, I'm going to find a way to donate a large portion of it to one of the following:

-a poverty-stricken society (that never had a chance to break the chains of poverty)

-the US or Israeli army, if they happen to be working on driving out a dictatorship or aiding a nation

-something else I see deserving of the money

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
My point was that you should not live to obtain happiness.

Neither was mine.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Heh. Well Sky, that WAS my point. Read that quote a little more carefully.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As much as you think "cause" and "effect" are synonymous...they are in fact different.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I am quite privy to the fact that the two are different. My point was that happiness for one's self shouldn't be a moral goal, whether the happiness was the cause or the effect.

And that's all I've got. Yippy skippy, I smell a quote war around the corner. Perhaps its already started. Either way, I look forward to what is said next. I'm gonna check out that Hobbes link now.

Sky · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (!pulk @ Jan 22 2005, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Edit: C-mon, we all know the real debates don't start with educated first posts. The one's that present real, debatable questions never end up being any good.
/end of edit

I see a lock coming as well, by some moderator who believes in the flase idea that debating is the same as insulting eachother, or just some moderator who doesn't like debate in his/her forum. Until then...

 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You're new here, I see. This is the discussion forum, which Nem0 runs. He's quite lenient with us, as long as we don't resort to, "OMG YOU F00KING TARD I KILL YOU!!" kind of stuff. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Wow, you completely missed my point. You're railing at people who are just looking for happiness, whatever it might come from, because you personally prefer to bring happiness to others instead of seeking it out for yourself</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I don't "prefer" it, I find it morally right. I didn't choose my moral values base on what I preferred, I chose them based on what I thought was moral. I think everyone else should have these moral values as well. If I didn't, why would I be debating about it?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yes, you do prefer it; you find it morally right, so rather than dealing with a guilty conscience you "prefer" to follow your conscience and bring happiness to others.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That's what debate is - trying to inflict other people with your ideas. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Actually, debate almost never results in "inflicting" people with your own ideas; I view debate as two people trying to convert the undecideds to their point of view, except they're addressing each other rather than the crowd. But it's a rare case when a debater is "converted".

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And I know that like everyone else I've tried to persuade of this, you will never be able to get a grasp on the following belief:

<i>One should not live to obtain pleasure.</i>

but it is a belief I assert, and for the following reasons:

<i>You are expected you be morally righteous. You should not take pride in being morally righteous. Your moral self should be a robot that knows only of morallity and nothing of emotion.</i>

That basically puts it into summary.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
First off, assuming that I don't understand you just gets the conversation off to a bad start. Assuming the moral high ground, when in actuality there IS no moral high ground here is also bad form.

Morality is impossible without emotion. Morality stems from what you feel inside; it certainly isn't rational thought that gives you morals, is it? Of course not. Guilt, pity, sadness, empathy, sympathy, all these things drive us to follow our consciences. Without those feelings, your "moral self" would have no sway over the rest of you.

Living to obtain pleasure, and coming by pleasure while you're helping others....you don't see the difference there? Whether you like it or not, they are two different things.

Actually, let me tell you what's wrong with your assessment, both of yourself and of my views:

- Someone who lives to obtain pleasure would spend a Saturday playing video games, or partying with friends.

- Someone who has devoted themselves to helping others, but finds pleasure while doing so, would take a job at a soup kitchen on a Saturday. While there, he would mingle with the people there, share stories, tell jokes, and have a good time.

- Someone who lives how you think you live would devote a Saturday to a soup kitchen because he feels he is obligated to. He would perform his duties there well, but would show no emotion, no compassion for the people there, and would leave the kitchen most likely without talking to anyone.

Are you really this kind of person? If so, I feel sorry for you; there is literally no reason why you can't have fun while you're helping others. Sure, sometimes it's serious work and inappropriate to laugh or something (I'm thinking if you were in Indonesia right now helping the tsunamai victims), but for small, everyday things.....why do you have to be a robot? I'm sure the people at the soup kitchen would enjoy the company of the second person over the third, even if the third person gave better service.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You've found a purpose - to bring others happiness - and in turn by fulfilling your purpose you create your own happiness.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Again, I do not create happiness for myself through moral deeds, not even through giving others happiness. It is simply what is expected of me, I don't know how else to word that. You responded to my quote about what a good arguement would be by making that exact same arguement. ? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /> ? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Another case of bad wording. I just read the last two lines of your first post 3 times, it took me to the third re-read to realize that you <u>didn't</u> believe that you create happiness for yourself through your deeds for others. Wow.

Also, who is "expecting" this of you? You're expecting it of yourself? Your parents? Your religion? I'm curious.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>doesn't make a whole lot of sense. According to you, your lifestyle shouldn't appeal to yourself.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Now THAT is what doesn't make much sense. My lifestyle is not happiness.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yes, yes, misread, misread.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What's wrong with having fun if you happen to be helping people?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Nothing, but that shouldn't be why you do it. You shouldn't forfeit the chance to help someone the moment you find out you won't be getting rewarded afterall.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
SO missing what I'm saying, dude. Where did I say that a lifestyle where someone dedicates themselves to helping others while deriving pleasure from it would lead to that same person balking whenever he won't be "rewarded" for his actions? In this case, the reward is implicit with the act: bringing joy equates joy for oneself. All I said was that if you find a lifestyle that suits you, do it, and you will find happiness.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>There's nothing wrong with making yourself happy by eating a ham sandwich, but what you do in the name of morallity and what you do in the name of deriving pleasure are two completely seperate and unconnected things to me.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Whooo boy. See above.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>don't feel bad if you feel like you are undeserving of something you have that others don't. Believe it or not, it's not your fault.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I can take a good guess and say this point was brought about more because of my basic self-denying attitude than anything else. Here's my response: when I have something I don't feel I deserve and others just as deserving as me don't have it, I don't crawl in a corner and feel bad about myself, I go out and use what I have for the good of others. The minute I win $1 million, I'm going to find a way to donate a large portion of it to one of the following:

-a poverty-stricken society (that never had a chance to break the chains of poverty)

-the US or Israeli army, if they happen to be working on driving out a dictatorship or aiding a nation

-something else I see deserving of the money
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Listen, I said that because I know people who lament their middle-class lifestyles because they feel they don't deserve it. Except you can't go out and give your life away. It's just luck that you are in your position while others aren't; that we are talking on computers right now, while there are poor families in Africa struggling to survive.

Furthermore, don't paint yourself as this righteous champion for the poor; you're currently using a rather expensive piece of equipment (unless you're in a library or something), on an Internet forum for a computer game. In any case, you have access to relatively new technology; you're not exactly a hermit. As you're a new recruit to the forum, I'm going to guess you actually play the game, unlike some old timers who're just here for the community. What I'm trying to say is, you're probably better than most people, but you're no friar.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
My point was that you should not live to obtain happiness. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Neither was mine.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Heh. Well Sky, that WAS my point. Read that quote a little more carefully.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
....you say that you shouldn't live to obtain happiness.
I say that I didn't say that, that it wasn't my idea to do so.
Oh, I got the negatives wrong, right, stupid English. Let's see...."my point was that you should not live to obtain happiness" = "my point was that you should NOT do 'x'"....I know, let's change my response to:
"My point was not that you should not live to obtain happiness"
no....no....whatever, I <u>meant</u> to say:
"I agree with you"
okay?
You shouldn't live for happiness. What you do with your life should bring you happiness of its own accord. If it isn't, then you're doing something wrong. And like I said, I mean true happiness; gains made at the cost of others don't count.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As much as you think "cause" and "effect" are synonymous...they are in fact different.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I am quite privy to the fact that the two are different. My point was that happiness for one's self shouldn't be a moral goal, whether the happiness was the cause or the effect.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
The cause of your lifestyle = something you're aiming for = a goal.
The effect of your lifestyle != something you're aiming for != a goal. M'kay? It just <i>happens</i> to be that way. It <i>happened</i> to work out that you can do just as much good as the guy doing good for others because he thinks he has to, except you're having fun with it.

Who do you think has the more rewarding life? The guy who does things for others because he thinks he has to, or the guy who does just as much to bring happiness to others AND manages to maintain some semblance of pleasure for himself? There's no reason to choose the first lifestyle over the second, and there's no reason why the second lifestyle should go against your moral code.

Do you really think that if you enjoy helping someone, it diminishes the act in their eyes? Do you really think that if you smile as you hand a homeless man a coat, people will smirk and say, "He only did that because he likes giving his coat away"? NO! And if people around you <u>do</u> judge you like that, you seriously need to stop listening to them.

pulk · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Yes, you do prefer it; you find it morally right, so rather than dealing with a guilty conscience you "prefer" to follow your conscience and bring happiness to others.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Yeah, yeah, you're right. But the words have made a gradual twist. I do prefer it in the sense that I find it morally right, but it is the only morally right preference in my opinion, not an opinion preference such as what color I prefer to wear. I prefer it, but I find it morally wrong not to prefer it.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Actually, debate almost never results in "inflicting" people with your own ideas; I view debate as two people trying to convert the undecideds to their point of view, except they're addressing each other rather than the crowd. But it's a rare case when a debater is "converted".</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

That's why I said "<b><u>trying</u></b> to inflict others with your ideas" We both know that neither of us will end up converting to the other's point of view no matter how long this goes on. We're just doing it for fun, or at least I am.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>First off, assuming that I don't understand you just gets the conversation off to a bad start. Assuming the moral high ground, when in actuality there IS no moral high ground here is also bad form.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Clarify what you mean by 'moral high ground'. And I apologize for the assumption, it was bad form. But I can almost assure you that it is true nonetheless. I should have added an 'almost' between the 'I' and the 'know'.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Morality is impossible without emotion. Morality stems from what you feel inside; it certainly isn't rational thought that gives you morals, is it? Of course not. Guilt, pity, sadness, empathy, sympathy, all these things drive us to follow our consciences. Without those feelings, your "moral self" would have no sway over the rest of you.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I'll have to say that I just flat out disagree with you on that one. Morality is universal, it existed before emotion. Emotion is a bug put in humans to make finding morality all the more difficult. Just what the heck do you think morals are? Of course it's rational thought that gives you morals! If it's not, your morals are wrong. Do you really think a code of right and wrong is/should be in accordance to your emotion? If you have no emotion, you know exactly what to do and when to do it. You could even say that knowing morality = knowing exactly what to do and exactly when to do it. Emotions are quite obviously the supreme inhibitors and blinders of such morals.

Now, emotions can also work in the reverse way, as you said. They can cause you to further realize morality, and instead of blind you, unblind you. But emotions were what blinded you in the first place. So whether emotions are working for or against how you perceive morality, they are potentially evil forces because they alter your moral stance.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Living to obtain pleasure, and coming by pleasure while you're helping others....you don't see the difference there? Whether you like it or not, they are two different things.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I understand that crystal clear! Mabey I made another mistake in wording or something, but could you point out where exactly I denied the difference between the two?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>- Someone who lives how you think you live would devote a Saturday to a soup kitchen because he feels he is obligated to. He would perform his duties there well, but would show no emotion, no compassion for the people there, and would leave the kitchen most likely without talking to anyone.

Are you really this kind of person? If so, I feel sorry for you; there is literally no reason why you can't have fun while you're helping others. Sure, sometimes it's serious work and inappropriate to laugh or something (I'm thinking if you were in Indonesia right now helping the tsunamai victims), but for small, everyday things.....why do you have to be a robot? I'm sure the people at the soup kitchen would enjoy the company of the second person over the third, even if the third person gave better service.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Listen: I do <b>not</b> think that you shouldn't be able to have fun while helping others. It is perfectly fine. I would fit under the category of the second guy you described... well, not really, just because I'm not much of a joke-teller... but I tried to make it clear to you that there was nothing wrong with having a little fun while helping others. My point concerning that was that having fun shouldn't be the reason you do it, and you should be willing to do it even if you weren't having fun.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Another case of bad wording. I just read the last two lines of your first post 3 times, it took me to the third re-read to realize that you didn't believe that you create happiness for yourself through your deeds for others. Wow.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I'm sorry. It seemed perfectly worded in my brain, I proofread it and all. Mabey it's just a matter of symantics, which differ from area to area, culture to culture. Or mabey I did make some real wording mistakes.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Also, who is "expecting" this of you? You're expecting it of yourself? Your parents? Your religion? I'm curious.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I expect it of myself and my religion expects it of me. Ironic, I bear my own unique religion. Mabey me and my religion are equivalents in that manner.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>All I said was that if you find a lifestyle that suits you, do it, and you will find happiness.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Hehe, I know, I know. And I just had to start an arguement over it, when in fact you weren't officially expressing your belief over happiness as/as a result of a meaningful life. You were simply stating a... fact (one that isn't neccessarily true). But hey, the debate has commenced and I have found that there are quite a few things I can argue with you about.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Whooo boy. See above.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Ya know, you could have merged those two quotes together and saved youself from writing that. Really, it has no meaning to me. All it's doing is telling me to go back and read what I just read like 3 seconds ago.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Listen, I said that because I know people who lament their middle-class lifestyles because they feel they don't deserve it. Except you can't go out and give your life away. It's just luck that you are in your position while others aren't; that we are talking on computers right now, while there are poor families in Africa struggling to survive.

Furthermore, don't paint yourself as this righteous champion for the poor; you're currently using a rather expensive piece of equipment (unless you're in a library or something), on an Internet forum for a computer game. In any case, you have access to relatively new technology; you're not exactly a hermit. As you're a new recruit to the forum, I'm going to guess you actually play the game, unlike some old timers who're just here for the community. What I'm trying to say is, you're probably better than most people, but you're no friar.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You are absolutely right. I am still in high school and my parents tell me what to do. I don't have access to means of donation to the poor, and as righteous as my parents try to make themselves look, they would never let me give a penny to the poor, just because they think I should be a snobby average 16 year old and make them proud with that appearance. As of right now, I just don't have what I need to help the poor, I wish to god I did (that is if there is one). When I've finally moved out of this crappy suburban house, I <u>will</u> become an active donor to the poor, and I hope you shoot me if I don't, you personally Sky.

I am writing from a ~$1500 laptop, I go to a good school, I eat 3 good meals a day, I hate it. The laptop is nice, but I can only justify having it because I'm bored to death living this stupid middle class life, and because it's the source of a lot of my information. I don't like to be ignorant.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>....you say that you shouldn't live to obtain happiness.
I say that I didn't say that, that it wasn't my idea to do so.
Oh, I got the negatives wrong, right, stupid English. Let's see...."my point was that you should not live to obtain happiness" = "my point was that you should NOT do 'x'"....I know, let's change my response to:
"My point was not that you should not live to obtain happiness"
no....no....whatever, I meant to say:
"I agree with you"
okay?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Apology accepted.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You shouldn't live for happiness. What you do with your life should bring you happiness of its own accord. If it isn't, then you're doing something wrong. And like I said, I mean true happiness; gains made at the cost of others don't count.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Now I finally realize that, it took a while. Not that I'm to blame, it took you a while to realize what I was getting at as well. I don't regret this debate, however. You can't say that this entire time you've been rebutting my arguements without a good moral stance on how morality is connected to seeking happiness, and I don't think you have the desire to do that, because you seem like a mature enough debater not to do that. So given that, this debate is worthwhile and what we have been exchanging has been relavent and with few missinterpretations for the most part.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Who do you think has the more rewarding life? The guy who does things for others because he thinks he has to, or the guy who does just as much to bring happiness to others AND manages to maintain some semblance of pleasure for himself? There's no reason to choose the first lifestyle over the second, and there's no reason why the second lifestyle should go against your moral code.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

The second lifestyle is not against my moral code. Explained above.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Do you really think that if you enjoy helping someone, it diminishes the act in their eyes? Do you really think that if you smile as you hand a homeless man a coat, people will smirk and say, "He only did that because he likes giving his coat away"? NO! And if people around you do judge you like that, you seriously need to stop listening to them.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

If someone was trying to make me happy, chances are I would be happy. All the same, I would find nothing wrong with someone accepting my deeds to them with happiness. But then it's the actions they take to make others happy that would give them the right to be happy when others did things for them. It balances out, and it almost ends up being a race, to see who can make the most people happy. If someone does a deed for you, you've lost rank in the race, but it makes you happy because that person has advanced in the race, which you like to see. If you do a deed for someone else, it shouldn't make you happy, because you've caused that person to lose rank. Perhaps the metaphor I just gave was just downright freaky. Whatever.

Sky · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (!pulk @ Jan 23 2005, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Morality is impossible without emotion. Morality stems from what you feel inside; it certainly isn't rational thought that gives you morals, is it? Of course not. Guilt, pity, sadness, empathy, sympathy, all these things drive us to follow our consciences. Without those feelings, your "moral self" would have no sway over the rest of you.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I'll have to say that I just flat out disagree with you on that one. Morality is universal, it existed before emotion. Emotion is a bug put in humans to make finding morality all the more difficult. Just what the heck do you think morals are? Of course it's rational thought that gives you morals! If it's not, your morals are wrong. Do you really think a code of right and wrong is/should be in accordance to your emotion? If you have no emotion, you know exactly what to do and when to do it. You could even say that knowing morality = knowing exactly what to do and exactly when to do it. Emotions are quite obviously the supreme inhibitors and blinders of such morals.

Now, emotions can also work in the reverse way, as you said. They can cause you to further realize morality, and instead of blind you, unblind you. But emotions were what blinded you in the first place. So whether emotions are working for or against how you perceive morality, they are potentially evil forces because they alter your moral stance.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Well I'm just going to have to disagree with you on that. There are too many morality puzzles that logic simply can't work through. These games psychiatrists play to see how our minds function are logic puzzles based on morality; they test how we respond emotionally to certain situations. Here's an example: You are trapped on a run-away railcar. Ahead of you are 5 workmen standing on the tracks. They can't get off the tracks in time to avoid getting hit. If you pull a lever, you can divert the tracks to take you away from the 5 men, but the tracks you'll move onto have 2 workment standing on them. Would you throw the lever, and save the most amount of people, or would you just let the car you are on hit the 5 workmen? It's not something that has a logical answer; you have to use your gut feeling to come up with an answer. Emotions are fickle masters, to be sure, but I'd rather trust my heart than my mind. The mind hesitates, but the heart always knows.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Living to obtain pleasure, and coming by pleasure while you're helping others....you don't see the difference there? Whether you like it or not, they are two different things.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I understand that crystal clear! Mabey I made another mistake in wording or something, but could you point out where exactly I denied the difference between the two?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Well you said it had no relevance to your point, when in actuality the order matters greatly when establishing motives for living:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The difference between "find something to do with your life, some meaning to your existence, and you'll find happiness", and "seek out happiness, and your life will be worthwhile." is irrelevant to my point, as my point puts a big blanket around both of them.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I just don't understand how you can put a "big blanket" over the two and treat them equally.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>- Someone who lives how you think you live would devote a Saturday to a soup kitchen because he feels he is obligated to. He would perform his duties there well, but would show no emotion, no compassion for the people there, and would leave the kitchen most likely without talking to anyone.

Are you really this kind of person? If so, I feel sorry for you; there is literally no reason why you can't have fun while you're helping others. Sure, sometimes it's serious work and inappropriate to laugh or something (I'm thinking if you were in Indonesia right now helping the tsunamai victims), but for small, everyday things.....why do you have to be a robot? I'm sure the people at the soup kitchen would enjoy the company of the second person over the third, even if the third person gave better service.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Listen: I do <b>not</b> think that you shouldn't be able to have fun while helping others. It is perfectly fine. I would fit under the category of the second guy you described... well, not really, just because I'm not much of a joke-teller... but I tried to make it clear to you that there was nothing wrong with having a little fun while helping others. My point concerning that was that having fun shouldn't be the reason you do it, and you should be willing to do it even if you weren't having fun.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Okay, fine then, that's exactly what I said. It seems a running theme here has been miscommunication.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Another case of bad wording. I just read the last two lines of your first post 3 times, it took me to the third re-read to realize that you didn't believe that you create happiness for yourself through your deeds for others. Wow.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I'm sorry. It seemed perfectly worded in my brain, I proofread it and all. Mabey it's just a matter of symantics, which differ from area to area, culture to culture. Or mabey I did make some real wording mistakes.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
No, I think I just rushed <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Also, who is "expecting" this of you? You're expecting it of yourself? Your parents? Your religion? I'm curious.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I expect it of myself and my religion expects it of me. Ironic, I bear my own unique religion. Mabey me and my religion are equivalents in that manner.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Ahh, you created your own religion? Do tell.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>All I said was that if you find a lifestyle that suits you, do it, and you will find happiness.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Hehe, I know, I know. And I just had to start an arguement over it, when in fact you weren't officially expressing your belief over happiness as/as a result of a meaningful life. You were simply stating a... fact (one that isn't neccessarily true). But hey, the debate has commenced and I have found that there are quite a few things I can argue with you about.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Whooo boy. See above.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Ya know, you could have merged those two quotes together and saved youself from writing that. Really, it has no meaning to me. All it's doing is telling me to go back and read what I just read like 3 seconds ago.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I'm tired, leave me alone. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Listen, I said that because I know people who lament their middle-class lifestyles because they feel they don't deserve it. Except you can't go out and give your life away. It's just luck that you are in your position while others aren't; that we are talking on computers right now, while there are poor families in Africa struggling to survive.

Furthermore, don't paint yourself as this righteous champion for the poor; you're currently using a rather expensive piece of equipment (unless you're in a library or something), on an Internet forum for a computer game. In any case, you have access to relatively new technology; you're not exactly a hermit. As you're a new recruit to the forum, I'm going to guess you actually play the game, unlike some old timers who're just here for the community. What I'm trying to say is, you're probably better than most people, but you're no friar.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You are absolutely right. I am still in high school and my parents tell me what to do. I don't have access to means of donation to the poor, and as righteous as my parents try to make themselves look, they would never let me give a penny to the poor, just because they think I should be a snobby average 16 year old and make them proud with that appearance. As of right now, I just don't have what I need to help the poor, I wish to god I did (that is if there is one). When I've finally moved out of this crappy suburban house, I <u>will</u> become an active donor to the poor, and I hope you shoot me if I don't, you personally Sky.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
hehe, I'd take you up on that if I weren't in the same situation (17)

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I am writing from a ~$1500 laptop, I go to a good school, I eat 3 good meals a day, I hate it. The laptop is nice, but I can only justify having it because I'm bored to death living this stupid middle class life, and because it's the source of a lot of my information. I don't like to be ignorant.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Well, I don't know about you, but as a Catholic I always like to believe that God has blessed me with a beneficial position, and that if I use it to become a powerful, influential person who can put into practice a worldview that's helpful than those I'm in a better position than right now, it'll all come out even in the end.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>....you say that you shouldn't live to obtain happiness.
I say that I didn't say that, that it wasn't my idea to do so.
Oh, I got the negatives wrong, right, stupid English. Let's see...."my point was that you should not live to obtain happiness" = "my point was that you should NOT do 'x'"....I know, let's change my response to:
"My point was not that you should not live to obtain happiness"
no....no....whatever, I meant to say:
"I agree with you"
okay?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Apology accepted.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yeah....guess I don't have much to say on this one...:sheepish:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You shouldn't live for happiness. What you do with your life should bring you happiness of its own accord. If it isn't, then you're doing something wrong. And like I said, I mean true happiness; gains made at the cost of others don't count.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Now I finally realize that, it took a while. Not that I'm to blame, it took you a while to realize what I was getting at as well. I don't regret this debate, however. You can't say that this entire time you've been rebutting my arguements without a good moral stance on how morality is connected to seeking happiness, and I don't think you have the desire to do that, because you seem like a mature enough debater not to do that. So given that, this debate is worthwhile and what we have been exchanging has been relavent and with few missinterpretations for the most part.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
That's my take on it at this point.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Who do you think has the more rewarding life? The guy who does things for others because he thinks he has to, or the guy who does just as much to bring happiness to others AND manages to maintain some semblance of pleasure for himself? There's no reason to choose the first lifestyle over the second, and there's no reason why the second lifestyle should go against your moral code.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

The second lifestyle is not against my moral code. Explained above.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Now that the whole "gross misunderstanding" thing is out, most of the rest of my comments are pointless....

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Do you really think that if you enjoy helping someone, it diminishes the act in their eyes? Do you really think that if you smile as you hand a homeless man a coat, people will smirk and say, "He only did that because he likes giving his coat away"? NO! And if people around you do judge you like that, you seriously need to stop listening to them.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

If someone was trying to make me happy, chances are I would be happy. All the same, I would find nothing wrong with someone accepting my deeds to them with happiness. But then it's the actions they take to make others happy that would give them the right to be happy when others did things for them. It balances out, and it almost ends up being a race, to see who can make the most people happy. If someone does a deed for you, you've lost rank in the race, but it makes you happy because that person has advanced in the race, which you like to see. If you do a deed for someone else, it shouldn't make you happy, because you've caused that person to lose rank. Perhaps the metaphor I just gave was just downright freaky. Whatever.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>Whatever. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Shloom · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jan 22 2005, 08:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In this you will find happiness, and not the fake happiness you get from drugs and alcohol  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I would argue that the "fake" happiness you get from drugs and to a lesser extent, alchohol is infact very nice.

Shloom · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (!pulk @ Jan 23 2005, 05:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I am writing from a ~$1500 laptop, I go to a good school, I eat 3 good meals a day, I hate it. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You hate it? You live a nice middle class life and you say you hate it? Are you a moron?

Edit: sorry for the double post but ingratfull little **** like this **** me off.

Sky · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shloom @ Jan 23 2005, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jan 22 2005, 08:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In this you will find happiness, and not the fake happiness you get from drugs and alcohol </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I would argue that the "fake" happiness you get from drugs and to a lesser extent, alchohol is infact very nice.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Until the drug wears off. And you're left either the same (namely not happy) or unhappier than before, until eventually the drugs kill you. Yeah, that's true happiness alright.

Now, if you just use drugs/alcohol recreationally, and you're not an alcoholic/addicted, then there's nothing really wrong with the happiness you get while partying with friends w/ alcohol. As long as you're in control, and you don't <u>need</u> the drugs to feel happy.

TommyVercetti · January 2005

We are here because we are, and that's all I need to know...

But, ya know, I'm hated by devot folks in my school.

Yep, I think aliens FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION created humans and JESUS WAS ONE OF THEM.

Or something like that. TBH, I'm an atheist. When I have more time I'll come back here and seriously debate this...

Shloom · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jan 23 2005, 11:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shloom @ Jan 23 2005, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jan 22 2005, 08:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In this you will find happiness, and not the fake happiness you get from drugs and alcohol </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I would argue that the "fake" happiness you get from drugs and to a lesser extent, alchohol is infact very nice. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Until the drug wears off. And you're left either the same (namely not happy) or unhappier than before, until eventually the drugs kill you. Yeah, that's true happiness alright.

Now, if you just use drugs/alcohol recreationally, and you're not an alcoholic/addicted, then there's nothing really wrong with the happiness you get while partying with friends w/ alcohol. As long as you're in control, and you don't <u>need</u> the drugs to feel happy.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
With my drug of choice (marijuana) I'm not instantly depressed once the high wears off. Infact I aften in a much better mood through the entire day. It works far better than some garbage anti depressants a doctor would give me.

alcohol however I'm not to fond of, it tastes nasty and makes people do things that they simply would not do had they been sober or even smoking grass.

Sky · January 2005

Just to throw out there, I'm not one to judge the relative effects of different drugs. Never tried any, not a single one, and I think you could pour the total volume of all the wine/beer/otheralcoholproducts I've ever drunk into a quart-sized container. And that's before you take out all the beer I've taken sips of and then spit out cause it tasted nasty. 17 and clean, w00t.....it's sad that that's an accomplishment nowadays. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' />

Anyways, <u>I</u> have beef with marijuana cause kids in my school do it all the time, like on the frickin BUS, and it smells so frickin nasty....one kid tried to cover up the smell by smoking it under his jacket on the bus....didn't work too well. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

Also, I've just learned to stay the **** away from people who're high, cause at least at my school they're so unpredictable it's scary. Go from laughing to swinging at your face in a second. Then again, that could just be their personality; like I said, I have no basis for comparison.

pulk · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You hate it? You live a nice middle class life and you say you hate it? Are you a moron?

Edit: sorry for the double post but ingratfull little **** like this **** me off.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Schloom, you are one hell of an idiot. I'm not ingrateful. An ingrateful person is someone who indulges what they have with no consideration for how it got there. An ingrateful person takes everything for granted. If you had half a brain you'd realize that I am not even remotely this kind of person. I know why I have what I have, and I know there are billions of people who don't have half the **** I have. There are two kinds of people who don't take their possessions for granted:

1 - The kind like you, the kind that sits in their cozy little house feeling grateful for what they have, realizing others don't have it

2 - The kind like me, the kind that are willing to go out there and change the above stated, who instead of feeling grateful for what they do have, feel sadness for what others don't have, and want to go out and help those who are less fontunate

I hate having to live this comfortable life I don't deserve, while others are starving and freezing in their metal scrap huts. That's what I hate. That's what I'll change. If there were no poverty in the world, I'd love this life. I'm sick of people like you who make themselves look all innocent by saying they're grateful for what they have. I doubt you're really as grateful as you think.

Edit: and about the drug thing, I do drugs and drink, I find neither addictive, I do one or the other mabey once every two weeks. I don't see how anyone could possibly grow an addiction for either. I couldn't do it if I tried. Also, it's not hard to maintain yourself when high, imo. Some people just don't bother keeping control of themselves. There are lots of dumbasses out their who make drugs and alcohol look bad.

Shloom · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (!pulk @ Jan 24 2005, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Schloom, you are one hell of an idiot. I'm not ingrateful. An ingrateful person is someone who indulges what they have with no consideration for how it got there. An ingrateful person takes everything for granted. If you had half a brain you'd realize that I am not even remotely this kind of person. I know why I have what I have, and I know there are billions of people who don't have half the **** I have. There are two kinds of people who don't take their possessions for granted:

1 - The kind like you, the kind that sits in their cozy little house feeling grateful for what they have, realizing others don't have it

2 - The kind like me, the kind that are willing to go out there and change the above stated, who instead of feeling grateful for what they do have, feel sadness for what others don't have, and want to go out and help those who are less fontunate

I hate having to live this comfortable life I don't deserve, while others are starving and freezing in their metal scrap huts. That's what I hate. That's what I'll change. If there were no poverty in the world, I'd love this life. I'm sick of people like you who make themselves look all innocent by saying they're grateful for what they have. I doubt you're really as grateful as you think.

Edit: and about the drug thing, I do drugs and drink, I find neither addictive, I do one or the other mabey once every two weeks. I don't see how anyone could possibly grow an addiction for either. I couldn't do it if I tried. Also, it's not hard to maintain yourself when high, imo. Some people just don't bother keeping control of themselves. There are lots of dumbasses out their who make drugs and alcohol look bad.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I don't feel grateful simply to avoid guilt, I feel grateful because of the amount of times I'v almost been living on the street. How many times have you been evicted because your father spent the rent money on booze? I think its about 3 or 4 for me before my mom tossed his **** out.

Snidely · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I hate having to live this comfortable life I don't deserve, while others are starving and freezing in their metal scrap huts. That's what I hate. That's what I'll change. If there were no poverty in the world, I'd love this life. I'm sick of people like you who make themselves look all innocent by saying they're grateful for what they have. I doubt you're really as grateful as you think.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
It seems sad that you hate your life, rather than appreciate the fact that you're comfortable and yet have the empathy to wish to help others.

pulk · January 2005

That's just the thing! I have too much empathy for the poor to possibly enjoy my life. I hate that I don't have access to means of aiding poverty, and you know why I don't? Because my parents won't grant me that access. They're a part of the life I hate.

Edit:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't feel grateful simply to avoid guilt, I feel grateful because of the amount of times I'v almost been living on the street. How many times have you been evicted because your father spent the rent money on booze? I think its about 3 or 4 for me before my mom tossed his **** out.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I guess I should feel more grateful then, simply because I know I'll have a chance at aiding poverty once I get out of school and away from my parents. I'm really grateful that I'm not in the position you've been in, and I'm really sorry. If I was living on the streets, helping the poor would be somewhat more difficult...

Sky · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (!pulk @ Jan 23 2005, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Edit: and about the drug thing, I do drugs and drink, I find neither addictive, I do one or the other mabey once every two weeks. I don't see how anyone could possibly grow an addiction for either. I couldn't do it if I tried.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Well, addiction is more of a chemical dependency thing, not something you can "try" to obtain...some people are predisposed to it I suppose. There are all different levels of how people handle drug intake. I know I don't hold alcohol well; a few glasses of normal wine or wine coolers will make me feel tipsy. 'Tis one of the reasons I don't drink; I'm enough of an idiot without being under the influence. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

panda_de_malheureux · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shloom @ Jan 24 2005, 10:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (!pulk @ Jan 23 2005, 05:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I am writing from a ~$1500 laptop, I go to a good school, I eat 3 good meals a day, I hate it. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You hate it? You live a nice middle class life and you say you hate it? Are you a moron?

Edit: sorry for the double post but ingratfull little **** like this **** me off. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Well off != happy.

why are we here? meh, got your whole life to figure that out.

Why Are We Here?

Comments