Thou Shalt Not Kill
CrystalSnake
Join Date: 2002-01-27 Member: 110Members
Join Date: 2002-01-27 Member: 110Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">The 6th Commandment</div> I'm curious what "thou shalt not kill" means.
Does it apply to animals as well as humans?
If it applies to animals, is it OK to kill them for food, clothing or in self-defense, but not for sport?
When should we consider something to be alive? Viruses certainly aren't, but what about bacteria?
Does it apply only to killing others, or also to killing oneself?
Is suicide OK if it saves the life of another person?
Is assisted suicide OK if the person asking for it is of sound mind, or has set down a <a href='http://www.bartleby.com/61/18/L0211800.html' target='_blank'>living will</a>?
Is it OK to fight wars?
Is it OK to kill humans in self-defense, or in defense of others?
Is the death penalty OK?
Is abortion OK? If so, at what stage of fetal development?
Does it apply to animals as well as humans?
If it applies to animals, is it OK to kill them for food, clothing or in self-defense, but not for sport?
When should we consider something to be alive? Viruses certainly aren't, but what about bacteria?
Does it apply only to killing others, or also to killing oneself?
Is suicide OK if it saves the life of another person?
Is assisted suicide OK if the person asking for it is of sound mind, or has set down a <a href='http://www.bartleby.com/61/18/L0211800.html' target='_blank'>living will</a>?
Is it OK to fight wars?
Is it OK to kill humans in self-defense, or in defense of others?
Is the death penalty OK?
Is abortion OK? If so, at what stage of fetal development?
Comments
Now if then Ten Commandments are truly the words of God...then anybody who kills is breaking that commandment, period.
However we as humans make up stuff "it's ok to kill during war...or in self defense...etc" to make ourselves feel better. I personally don't think god (if he exists) has ever interfered with us humans or given us these "commandments" to live our lives by, so I don't worry too much about it.
20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does that fit in? Just asking.
Does it apply to animals as well as humans?
If it applies to animals, is it OK to kill them for food, clothing or in self-defense, but not for sport?
When should we consider something to be alive? Viruses certainly aren't, but what about bacteria?
Does it apply only to killing others, or also to killing oneself?
Is suicide OK if it saves the life of another person?
Is assisted suicide OK if the person asking for it is of sound mind, or has set down a <a href='http://www.bartleby.com/61/18/L0211800.html' target='_blank'>living will</a>?
Is it OK to fight wars?
Is it OK to kill humans in self-defense, or in defense of others?
Is the death penalty OK?
Is abortion OK? If so, at what stage of fetal development? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i still think that this commandment is meant to be interpreted as:
you shall not kill the the pure intention of killing jus for killing's sake.
in this intrepretation of mine, it would mean that killling the animals for food and cloths are fine cuz its a necessity for us human. and as long as we dont kill it for fun, and have a respect for what we kill, it can be justified.
i hope thats a satisfactory interpretation of it..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kill stuff <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Best advice: live life the best way you can. If you should chance upon a moral dilemma, the action you take - if directed by your heart and soul - will be what God wants you to do. It is impossible to "prove" God's will otherwise, so you can only hope that your actions are right in His eyes.
That is not even near tho the origial hebraic meaning of the commandment. If I remember correctly, the true words in their hebraic originals were more like "thou <i>will</i> not murder".
This implies that a faithful person will not egage in murder (or the other forbidden tasks stated in the other commandments. )
This is a new concept in religious doctrine since it appeals to the faithfulls own sense of morality and justice, rather than simply stating a law which is to abide.
It says, if you are a good and faithful person, you will not murder for any reason.
It does not say that killing is forbidden at any rate, since there are circumstances that require violence. It depends on ones definition of murder, or, more likely at the given societys definition of murder which most likely has not changed that much since the ancent times.
Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
Murder
Wilful murder was distinguished from accidental homicide, and
was invariably visited with capital punishment (Num. 35:16, 18,
21, 31; Lev. 24:17). This law in its principle is founded on the
fact of man's having been made in the likeness of God (Gen. 9:5,
6; John 8:44; 1 John 3:12, 15). The Mosiac law prohibited any
compensation for murder or the reprieve of the murderer (Ex.
21:12, 14; Deut. 19:11, 13; 2 Sam. 17:25; 20:10). Two witnesses
were required in any capital case (Num. 35:19-30; Deut.
17:6-12). If the murderer could not be discovered, the city
nearest the scene of the murder was required to make expiation
for the crime committed (Deut. 21:1-9). These offences also were
to be punished with death, (1) striking a parent; (2) cursing a
parent; (3) kidnapping (Ex. 21:15-17; Deut. 27:16).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm curious what "thou shalt not kill" means.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It depends. If you mean, what did God supposedly mean when he allegedly gave the Ten Commandments to Moses, I'd tell you that this is another circumstance where you can never know with certainty and it will be subject to debate by scholars and fundamentalists forever, as has godly language been for the last 2000 years. The only reason I don't give you my own definitive position is that I don't have one.
That is not even near tho the origial hebraic meaning of the commandment. If I remember correctly, the true words in their hebraic originals were more like "thou <i>will</i> not murder".
This implies that a faithful person will not egage in murder (or the other forbidden tasks stated in the other commandments. )
This is a new concept in religious doctrine since it appeals to the faithfulls own sense of morality and justice, rather than simply stating a law which is to abide.
It says, if you are a good and faithful person, you will not murder for any reason.
It does not say that killing is forbidden at any rate, since there are circumstances that require violence. It depends on ones definition of murder, or, more likely at the given societys definition of murder which most likely has not changed that much since the ancent times.
Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
Murder
Wilful murder was distinguished from accidental homicide, and
was invariably visited with capital punishment (Num. 35:16, 18,
21, 31; Lev. 24:17). This law in its principle is founded on the
fact of man's having been made in the likeness of God (Gen. 9:5,
6; John 8:44; 1 John 3:12, 15). The Mosiac law prohibited any
compensation for murder or the reprieve of the murderer (Ex.
21:12, 14; Deut. 19:11, 13; 2 Sam. 17:25; 20:10). Two witnesses
were required in any capital case (Num. 35:19-30; Deut.
17:6-12). If the murderer could not be discovered, the city
nearest the scene of the murder was required to make expiation
for the crime committed (Deut. 21:1-9). These offences also were
to be punished with death, (1) striking a parent; (2) cursing a
parent; (3) kidnapping (Ex. 21:15-17; Deut. 27:16). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then it begs to question, why was it translated to "kill"? Could it be it's debated and not so clear as you make it.
Maybe because ancient Hebraic is very different to our mordern latin based languages?
Who knows, I'm no philologist.
Who knows, I'm no philologist.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, very few words translate cleanly into other languages. We place very different connotations on certain words; that's why English has so many synonyms.
Kill:
<!--QuoteBegin-dictionary.com+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dictionary.com)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->annihilate, asphyxiate, assassinate, blow away, bump off, butcher, chill, cream, croak, crucify, dispatch, do in, drown, dump, electrocute, eradicate, erase, execute, exterminate, extirpate, finish off, garrote, get, guillotine, hang, hit, ice, immolate, knock off, liquidate, lynch, massacre, murder, neutralize, obliterate, off, poison, polish off, put away, rub out, sacrifice, slaughter, slay, smother, snuff, strangle, suffocate, take, waste, winterkill, wipe out, zap, bump off, do in, eliminate, execute, gun down, hit, kill, knock off, liquidate, slaughter, slay<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could eliminate many of these ("zap" comes to mind...) but the point remains that connotation AND context are very important. We'll never know exactly what the law was intended to mean, nor in what manner it was meant to be used in. That's why I said, it's pointless to discuss it, and we all just have to do the best we can because Biblical translations are general guidelines at best.
Well, if thats so and you are obviously an expert in ancient civilization and society, then we'll take this as evidence. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
phonos (φόνος, 5408) is used (a) of a special act, Mark 15:7; Luke 23:19, 25; (b) in the plural, of “murders” in general, Matt. 15:19; Mark 7:21 (Gal. 5:21, in some inferior mss.); Rev. 9:21; in the singular, Rom. 1:29; © in the sense of “slaughter,” Heb. 11:37, “they were slain with the sword,” lit., “(they died by) slaughter (of the sword)”; in Acts 9:1, “slaughter.” See slaughter.¶
Note: In Matt. 19:18, kjv, phoneuo, “to kill” (akin to phoneus, see below), is translated “thou shalt do (no) murder” (rv, “thou shalt (not) kill”). See kill, slay.
Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W. (1996). Vine's complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words (Vol. 2, Page 421). Nashville: T. Nelson.
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon:
5408 φόνος [phonos /fon·os/] n m. From an obsolete primary pheno (to murder); GK 5840; 10 occurrences; AV translates as “murder” eight times, “slaughter” once, and “be slain + 599” once. 1 murder, slaughter.
Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G5408). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.
The verb Phonos used in Deut 17:5 is used as 'murder,' both in the OT and also multiple times in the NT in greek.
The verb is also used where contemporary translations would place 'slaughter' or 'slay.' Thus, phonos refers almost exclusively to a wrongful killing. Since death is ordered for certain offenses, and we assume that Moses, after growing up in the royal family and you know, being spoken to by God Himself, was not, in fact, a flaming moron, and would not contradict himself at every turn.
So, the contemporary meaning of this word would be translated as 'wrongful slaying,' or something to that effect.
This means that it is not always wrong to take a life (defensive war [See <i>C.S. Lewis: Why I am Not a Pacifist</i> , self defense, or defense of others who cannot defend themselves.)
Keep in mind that of the few people that Christ is recorded as praising with little reservation, one was Capernaum (Mt8:5, Lk 7:1), who was a Centurion with many men under his command, and had no doubt had many men die under his blade.
Also, in Luke 3:14Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what should we do?” He said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or false accusation, and be satisfied with your wages.”
The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1996, c1989 (Lk 3:14). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
Here, when telling the soldiers to be satisfied with their wages, he implys it is lawful to accept wages specifically for soldiering. IE: Doing the things that a soldier would.
In addition, Paul uses in the Epistles multiple times good soldiering as an example of a good Christian, one who trains him or herself to accomplish the task set before them (Mt 28:19-20) better, and please their commanding officer. (God)
Long story short, it's best translated as 'murder,' not a flat order of pacifism.
What god really meant to say was, "Thou Shalt Not Kill Unless Thou Hasth Recieved Mandate From God. God being me. Thou bein' you all. Yall bein' my b****es. Holla to my nigga Jesus." It's unfortunate that such a fundamental mistake was made, because believe me, we are feeling the effects of it today. Do you ever figure why people like Ashlee Simpson, Britney Spears are allowed to sing? Well, there's the fact that they make great BANG BANG BANG (I'm not talking about their music), but it's also because nobody listens to God anymore. The only way people can get their Divine Calls today is through televised evangelism, (because we all know prayers only work if God cares enough to pay attention to you, which, for all you geniuses, he doesn't) and if just everybody would sell their souls to the 700 CLUB (or just donate your life savings, if you're such a wuss), we could have upgrade HOLY ANTENNAS for better reception. And we need that better reception. Remember when god told us about the WMDs in Iraq, and our president acted on this information? Well, what he really meant to say was "There are WMDs in Iraq. Not really. I'm just playin' ya! Ain't that the shizzle? Holla back, G-W-B!"
/moving on
I do know who this CWAG is, but I'm sure any admin with IP checking powers can tell you that I am neither on a proxy nor have his IP.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
Something I can agree on.