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Necrosis · January 2005

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Not really. But I don't think that dead players are all that useful you know. I never saw a team of dead players win a game. Maybe it's just me.
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Team of suiciding marines jumping into the pit while ping of death killed last alien player. Thank you and GG.

Second, a player who's actually running about and doing commander tasks is much more valuable than the tard who wants to live forever by sneaking around a killing the odd skulk or two. Or runs off to kill a "vital" rt on the other side of the map as opposed to help turn the tide against a sudden rush.

aonomus · January 2005

Well for sure marines are expendable, they come free, but just to offer up a counterpoint, it takes time to spawn back in. Sometimes its good to have people be suicidal, but its just rediculus when marines will absolutely not go into the hive and start shooting.

Usually people will follow others, but it always takes a pointman, best if you assign one.

tjosan · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jan 21 2005, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Or runs off to kill a "vital" rt on the other side of the map as opposed to help turn the tide against a sudden rush.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Dude, those rts are not "vital", they're <b><i><u>vital</u></i></b>. Leaving alien or marine rts up is like giving the game away.

2_of_Eight · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (QwiXXeR @ Jan 21 2005, 03:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jan 16 2005, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Are 5 skulks coming after you? FINISH THE DAMN PHASE AND DIE SO I CAN RUSH THAT HIVE DOWN. You might get 3 of those skulks if you are über leet, but that leaves the other 2 to kill you</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I dont understand <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

U can lmg 4 skulks <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> and then pistol whip the 5th

And if u are really **** at aiming .Then u can lmg 3 pistol 4 n a bit and then just nife the stupid skulk As it jumps over your head ?

Then build the pg while 5 aliens are waiting in the spawn que ?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You really expect an average player to kill 5 skulks alone? Many have problems killing 1; killing 2 is already good, 3 is amazing, 4 would be "hacker"-good. You are <b>not going to get an average player to kill 5 skulks in a row</b>. Build the phase instead!
And yes, taking down their RTs is just as important, if not more important, than building your own. So <b>always</b> have a ninja walking around taking down their RTs - you have no idea how much this helps.

intensityrising · January 2005

One death doesn't really matter, but in some situations it does.

Necrosis · January 2005

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Dude, those rts are not "vital", they're vital. Leaving alien or marine rts up is like giving the game away.
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I hate to break your philosophy here but it doesn't mean squat if they have 1 less RT when you've just lost the game. Get it in context.

tjosan · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jan 22 2005, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Dude, those rts are not "vital", they're vital. Leaving alien or marine rts up is like giving the game away.
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I hate to break your philosophy here but it doesn't mean squat if they have 1 less RT when you've just lost the game. Get it in context.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
It's not my fault that either
a) the commander cant plan the play prtoperly so we dont have any chance of defending
or
b) you 2-3 marines cant aim for **** and die to 5 skulks.

NGE · January 2005

Try not to die but don't be afraid to put yourself in danger should it benefit the team

Sounds about right. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

MrBen · January 2005

There are two games in NS, there's the res game and theirs the killing game. Don't underestimate the importance of one or two RTs.

Church · January 2005

Killing an alien RT hurts the aliens a lot. Take down their nodes at all costs.

Necrosis · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
It's not my fault that either
a) the commander cant plan the play prtoperly so we dont have any chance of defending
or
b) you 2-3 marines cant aim for **** and die to 5 skulks.
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Its your job to compensate for your team's little foibles, not to rambo around doing the right things (killing rts) at the wrong time (while your base is about to get fried). Get it in context. Lots of people kid themselves that they're doing "the right thing" but the reality of the situation is that they could swing the defensive battle, as opposed to flapping around aimlessly as a Fade or running around aimlessly as a SG Marine.

And yes, I've seen people do this even when the rest of the team has been asking for their help at the front. GG stupidity. You can tell yourself that its not your fault, but if you haven't contributed to the TEAM win, then it IS your fault.

Second, if you think the comm can't "plan the play", then perhaps you should get in the chair and use you "experience" to command a team victory. Funny that a lot of players who complain about their comm either don't have the skill to get in the chair, or the courage to even try.

Don't take it the wrong way, because maybe you have actually commed games, but in a situation where its the comm's fault then you should hop in the chair next round and show him how its done. If 3 marines are getting destroyed in base, then perhaps you should try and help defend it as opposed to let the base collapse. If you let the base die, YOU lose. YOUR job is to help the TEAM. TEAM loses, YOU lose. Its pretty simple.

tjosan · January 2005

My team already has a good commander, why should I do it myself? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

You are probably a much smarter marine than I am.

[Edit] Besides, carrying a team is not only boring but also doing the team a disservice. Better that they learn from their mistakes than have me cleaning up their mess for them.

Buggy · January 2005

Are you talking about skulks or lmg'ers? Because a single skulk is 500% better off chewing rt's than dying whilst killing a marine at "the front", only to clog up the spawn queue some more with other ~6 random skulks.

For marines it's slightly different, because his firepower adds 20-25% more to a full squad when you're, like shotgun rushing or something.

Although for normal situations or sieging, marines are not expendable, at least some are. Imagine a siege, fade or two, lerk, there's a fairly good marine standing at the back with an hmg covering, and the rest of the marines who are sub-par are building the sieges. Yes, there'll be skulks leaping towards the siege builders and killing them. Should the hmg'er stand in front, then? No, because he'll die. If he dies, the rest will plummet apart. As long as he stays behind killing whatever skulks come near the phase, the siege continues.

And lastly, for a normal situation of "bad marine, good marine, 2+ skulks behind the next doorway", the bad marine will be better off dying, so the good marine can do stuff better than the bad marine could do behind that doorway.

So it depends on situation and skill whether people should act as bait or not, mkay.

MrBen · January 2005

There is no such thing as killing RTs at the wrong time. What do you achieve by killing 10 fades and 2 hives if they still have 4/5 rts? Jack ****. Why? Because they'll just keep doing it and eventually they'll win.

As i said earliar, there are two battles in NS. The kills and the res. The experienced players understand the importance of the res war, you appear to not.

Necrosis · January 2005

I understand that when the team is calling for a fade to help them stop a marine rush, its time for that fade to listen to the team instead of his ego or his perceived "right way to play."

If your team is losing, you are doing something wrong.

Saying "there's no wrong time to kill rts" is an exceptionally blinkered view which only contributes to stunning team losses. If base is under attack, and every player is attacking rts, was that the right thing to do?

Its pretty cold comfort if the base/hive gets toasted because not one person was defending it. There is a time for everything.

Second, if base is getting toasted, and the people there can't defend it, then the better players need to step in and help their buddies. Team game, not a solo game. If players are so hot that they're full of tactical insight about how the game should be played, that defence should be ignored in favour of rambo rt runs and K:D scores, if they're so good that its "not their problem" that other people aren't as good, then it becomes THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to make up for the teams problems. Thats how teamplay works. Its not about one person "carrying" the team, its about the skilled person taking on a bigger load BECAUSE HE HAS THE SKILL TO DO SO.

A player who believes himself remotely skilled at this game should realise that he becomes vital in any front line effort. One fade can swing the balance in a lot of combat, and all the more if its a GOOD fade. Hiding across the map, with all their "skills", does nothing for the team. One less rt at endgame, whoop de doo. I'd rather forget the RT and save the hive, so that there's actually a game to play.

But whatever. If someone is fixated on RTs to the point where they will NOT defend base resources, then they're never really going to do well with NS at the highest COOPERATIVE levels.

tjosan · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jan 24 2005, 03:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I understand that when the team is calling for a fade to help them stop a marine rush, its time for that fade to listen to the team instead of his ego or his perceived "right way to play."

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There are often times when trying to defend that siege is not the best option, because it just cant be done. Examples are when marines have HMGs and the alien 1 fade and no lerk. Without a lerk that fade can do jack **** against HMGs.

One RT less is a huge difference, stop making baseless assumptions and simplifications. Denying the alien their RTs is the single most important part of marine play. Denying marines income from their RTs is the single most important part of alien play.

If I have to stop pressuring alien RTs to help defend my base or RTs from constant onslaught, then all that does is prolong the game. Not taking those RTs down will lose you the game as certain as if your base was destroyed entierly. If I cant trust my team mates to defend one part of the map while I pressure on the other side, then winning is impossible.

While pressuring RTs, I am not only taking down their rts, I am also diverting them from pressuring my rts, since they need to react to my attack first. Pressuring and taking down RTs is not solely an offensive act, but is definately of importance for the ease of which the rest of the team can put up RTs, and concequently how quick the commander can tech up and win the game.

This has nothing to do with 'ego or percieved "right way to play"', this is about knowing the dynamics of NS and playing the game accordingly.

P.S. A while back we had a quite interesting game on ns_veil. We were aliens, and the marines did a 4-man rush on our RTs (a full team of shotguns), and we had no chance of defending them. Instead we turned all our team against their base and took it and all their RTs on the map (except for base one) down while they took even our hive-node (and beaconing afterwards). Because of res shortage on the marine team, our hive builder could redrop three RTs and eventually we won the game anyway. This is an example when attacking "a remote RT somewhere in a corner" definately was better than having our skulks rush at their shotguns dying in vain.

Granted, situations like this dont occur often, and I'd say never versus good marine teams, but it still serves its purpose as an example.

MrBen · January 2005

There are occasions when high skilled players as fade can carry a team. There are also occasions where the high skilled player simply faces insane odds and cannot do it all on his own. Half the skill of being a fade is realising when you and when you can't do something. I will never throw my life away needlessly. I recognise when i can and when i can't do something and i will always do everything within my power as a fade to do something. I will never kill myself on a lost cause though. (not purposefully anyway <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />)

Lets say marines are sieging our second hive as it goes up because we have OCs but they have shotguns, mines, hmgs and we have no lerk. Sorry to say it but that is a lost cause. Most alien teams have zero contingency plans. When <3 are in that situation we sit back and say 'fine, waste your res on a siege.' Our skulks take down every single RT they have, we recap the nodes on the far side of the map and we have our fades pressure base/kill any lone marines who try and recap. Sure they kill their hive but we cripple their economy, boost our own and drop another hive later. They're welcome to try again but you'll find it incredibly hard to beat an alien team with 4/5 rts when you have 1.

There's more to this game than simply flying around and killing everything. You can't charge the guns and hope to win, you have to attack where they are weak. If they're attacking one hive you clear another, if they're taking down your nodes and you can't remove them hit their base, kill their rts. Have a contingency plan to replace RTs, do it asap and have your skulks constantly keep their RTs down.

It's all about an eye for an eye. Not losing an eye and a leg or two as you die in vain and not hurting them in anyway. You can't lose a second hive and not hurt them somewhere else. You can't lose a RT and not take down theirs. They hurt you, you hurt them.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But whatever. If someone is fixated on RTs to the point where they will NOT defend base resources, then they're never really going to do well with NS at the highest COOPERATIVE levels. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Ahaha... ahaha... classic. You do realise the people arguing againist you are all clanners, right? Basically you said good clanners won't do very well in a clan enviroment...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If I cant trust my team mates to defend one part of the map while I pressure on the other side, then winning is impossible.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

TRUE THAT HOMIE

Necrosis · January 2005

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Without a lerk that fade can do jack **** against HMGs.
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So he hides on the other side of the map? Thats pretty weak strategy right there. How about a base raid? How about hit n run on the back of the siege base so that the marines fan out?

Second, we're not talking JUST sudden siege posts, we're talking infantry rushes, PG sneaks, all sorts of pleasant things. Situations where a player is hollering that a marine is building outside a hive, yet noone takes any action because they're trying to kill RTs. That won't save the hive, folks.

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One RT less is a huge difference, stop making baseless assumptions and simplifications.
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One RT less when the hive is dying is USELESS. Your TEAM will not live to capitalise on any marginal advantage its given them. We are not talking midgame, or a situation where the defenders might actually repel the attackers, we're talking situations where its crunch time and the alleged best players are hiding on the other side of the map doing the same repetitive thing because they either don't want to die or are following some simplistic mental programming which insists that killing ONE RT will somehow cause the entire marine force to run back to defend it.

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If I have to stop pressuring alien RTs to help defend my base or RTs from constant onslaught, then all that does is prolong the game.
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Funnily enough it might prolong the game long enough for a team win. Defending your base is probably the topmost priority in the alien game. At least marines don't have to worry about ping of death. If marine base is under attack, then a scouting marine can sneak up a relocate. If hive is under attack, a scouting fade is a waste of res thats spending its last minute swiping an RT on autopilot. Not unless he intends to drop a hive, and rarely if ever have I seen that happen.

Snap out of it, if its a crucial battle then the fade should be wading in there or at least sniping around the periphery trying to bleed out the marines, or he can be rushing base so that they all beacon back, hopefully buying his team enough time to take out the PG. As a skilled player, that skill should be put to use by doing skilled activities - not standing like a drone taking out an RT while the hive is going under. NO HIVE, NO GAME. The RT can be forgotten for a minute while the marine attack is repelled. If its not repelled, then fair enough game over - but thats an honest way of losing as opposed to your key players hiding like scared children on the other side of the map doing the most counterintuitive action ever.

NSplayer1 - "Hey guys, HIVE UNDER ATTACK"
NSplayer2 - "Quick, back to the hive and try to defend it"
NSplayer3 - "I'm going to rush MS and see if I can beacon them back"
FADE - DEWDZ I'M GOIBG TO KILL RT!!!

What happens when the rt dies? Will the marines leave the hive because they're one rt down? Are they going to lose their weapons and armour? What precisely happens that will stop them attacking?

NOTHING.

Attacking an RT when the hive is getting toasted shows a total disregard for strategy. Mindlessly doing something because its the right thing to do *sometime* doesn't mean its ALWAYS the right thing to do. There a lot of "right things to do" but there's also a time and a place for them - battering an RT as a SKILLED FADE PLAYER while the hive is under attack is, frankly, idiotic. Such a person denies the team their "skill", and doesn't contribute in any way to averting the hive rush. Sheer stupidity.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
If I cant trust my team mates to defend one part of the map while I pressure on the other side, then winning is impossible.
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If the team can't trust an allegedly skilled player (you will note that I am not using the hypothetical "you", I am addressing all "skilled" players) to defend the hive when it needs defended, then winning is impossible. Key players should be making the most of their skills, not hiding across the map when the hive could clearly do with some help. There is no excuse. That RT will not help when the hive is dead. If someone cannot teamplay, then they should not be playing teamplay games.

The team puts its trust in superior players to take an appropriate share of the burden. On servers where I am the better player, I tend to do more aggressive plays in order to best serve my teammates. On servers where I am a weaker player, I gorge so that the better players do not have to worry about the home front. This is the dynamic of teamplay. Its not some artificial concept of how many RTs are held, its about players acting for the good of the team.

Again, consider if the hive is under attack and EVERYONE runs to an RT in order to kill it. What has it achieved? Its a complete waste of time and resources - the team loses. And its ALL about the team. Smacktards might kid themselves with thoughts like "its their fault, I was doing the right thing by webbing up this doorway 2 miles from the hive" or "well I came away top of the scoreboard so I did right" or "I took out 5 rts as a fade, why couldnt you skulks take out some marines?".

Re-evaluate the priorities. If every marine is rushing the hive, then the hive needs to be saved. Either by rushing base (noone's in base so K:D is saved, alleluia!) or by sneaking up the back of the marines and hit'n'running until they scatter. These actions have a very real effect on the game - snafuing an RT is only good IF THE GAME CONTINUES.

Your example is good, but does not apply to last hive going down. If you study my posts carefully, you will note I refer constantly to the death of the final hive. Would you split the entire team up if it was the last hive? Would you hide across the map? I've seen it done, and its a joke that players try this sort of thing then blame their team for poor play. This after everyone on the team tries to save the final hive, while the alleged better player is lurking on the farside. Mmm.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Lets say marines are sieging our second hive
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Sure, and your post is valid, but I am considering the final hive.

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Basically you said good clanners won't do very well in a clan enviroment...
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Basically you READ that I said that. If someone is not defending their last hive (directly or indirectly), or actively seeking to make a new one elsewhere, then they are not helping. Furthermore, do not confuse clan play with cooperative play. There are similarities and there are differences. A person who does not help his team will NOT succeed in cooperative play. He might get top of the scoreboard. He might only have 1 death in the whole game. He might have killer aim, be able to bunnyhop, and work together with 5 other drones in various predesignated roles..... but he will not succeed in an environment where he must tailor his approach to that of his team. Cooperation is about picking up on the team flaws and compensating for them - it is NOT about doing the same thing over and over "because its the right thing" to do elsewhere.

To say again for emphasis -

If your team cannot trust you to support them, winning is impossible.

tjosan · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jan 25 2005, 03:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> *stuff*  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
And supporting the team as a fade might actually be just doing *nothing* for a while, because a live fade is better than a dead. And losing a hive and a fade at the same time is worse than losing just a hive.

You suck.

MrBen · January 2005

Please stop taking random examples. Examples with total idiots doing stupid things aren't valid. None of us are suggesting anyone hides in a random vent on the other side of the map.

No one is disputing that you don't your only hive(s), okay? We're disputing defending a hive be it your second, third or only hive if it's a lost cause. Why bother? We're also trying to explain how not defending a hive (provided it's not your only one) can actually be a good thing. Please re-read our posts. You seem to be thinking we're saying "Never defend the hive." We're saying "It's better to stay alive and fight another day than to die needlessly."

I think you'd better appreciate what we're saying if you saw it in action. It's obviously a weird concept to let hives die but believe us when we say it can be useful. Play with #lessthanthree and you'll see what we mean and you'll better appreciate what we're talking about. That is an genuine invitation. PM me if you're interested.

crisano · January 2005

The #1 priority and focus in NS should usually be RTs, believe it or not, RTs are the backbone of a team. When one team has free reign of RTs, you won't be able to believe how fast they are able to rack up resources, which in turn becomes upgrades or fast evolutions, which in turns to a win or a loss. Not many people understand this aspect of the game, in fact a lot of people think locking down a hive is the best defense. Instead of wasting time locking down hives, go after RTs. Build up your own RT backbone while demolishing the aliens, fades won't come until you are pretty well upgraded, atleast armor 1 and weapon 2, plus a nice compliment of SGs to cut down the new fades. Once fades are cut down, it's game over if they have no RTs.

1 RT can make a huge difference, especially if aliens only have 3 including their hive RT.

Rapier7 · January 2005

Resources aren't that important, really. Well, I'm talking about big pubs.

Holding strategic spots are the most important. Hives are strategic, very much so.

I'm not saying lock down every hive you can, but if you can take out their building second hive, the game is pretty much yours. If you even have 2 RTs, you can still afford to pump out HMGs and welders once you've got your prerequisite upgrades (W2, A1) and that'll easily take out a fade. Lerks can complicate matters, but other than that....

Simply put, if an alien team has to rely on hive 1 abilities for the entire game, <b><i><u>they will lose</u></i></b> unless the marine commander is completely incompetent.

Church · January 2005

Marines can absorb RT losses better because of their pooled resources. They can afford to lose a few to take out a hive or something provided they immedaitely go and cap them again afterwards. I persoanlly think that instead of wasting res on a seige, I'd rather drop a lot of shottie and tell my team to shoot the hive down. Much more efficient and faster that way.

Necrosis · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 25 2005, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jan 25 2005, 03:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> *stuff* </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
And supporting the team as a fade might actually be just doing *nothing* for a while, because a live fade is better than a dead. And losing a hive and a fade at the same time is worse than losing just a hive.

You suck. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Oh how the mask slips. Losing a fade is preferable to losing the last hive. In fact anything is preferable to losing the last hive. Can't you see this?

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You seem to be thinking we're saying "Never defend the hive." We're saying "It's better to stay alive and fight another day than to die needlessly."
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No, I'm saying always defend the last hive, and pointing out that your hive defence (both direct and indirect) is valid only if another hive exists. Why am I doing this? Because some fool will read your post and think you're giving them carte blanche to totally ignore the hive. Why would they think that? Because I continually state I am referring to the final hive going down. You are not responding to that, you are responding to "If your second/third hive is going down".

I think you'd better appreciate my point if you paid attention to what I have to keep repeating over and over and over and over. LAST HIVE MUST BE SAVED. Do you agree, or do you disagree? Ignore the rest, its irrelevant. I dont care about 2nd or 3rd hive defence, they're totally different things. LAST HIVE. Do you save it, or do you hide across the map idly swiping an rt because its "the right thing to do". I do not need a private server for this - you can see it happening across many pubs. Skilled players totally ignoring the defence of the final hive because they believe ONE RT to somehow have a mystical ability to stop the marine advance.

NSplayer1: Need some help here folks, hive is getting a beating
NSplayer2: Where's the bloody fade?
FADEZOR: You're doing fine, I'm killing this RT
NSplayer1: We're not doing fine, we're barely holding them out, hit the back door or something!
NSplayer2: FFS BASE RUSH OR SOMETHING
FADEZOR: Even tho I'm nowhere near you and only have your word to go on, I know I'm right and you're all doing OK there. Besides, if I went there this RT wouldn't die. And I might die and that would ruin my score. You're doing fine.
NSplayer1: They're just about to spot the hive, pull a finger out fade.
FADEZOR: WTH?<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /> I HAVE TAKEN DOWN TWO NODES!!?!?
NSplayer2: HIVE IS GOING DOWN
*music plays*
FADEZOR: OGM nub team, I did nothing wrong.

I have seen this sort of rubbish happening. I expect more from skilled players. I am no nub. I spend my game time killing RTs, either as gorge or as skulk. Should the game go well, I go lerk and proceed to umbra spam my team. I fully understand how cooperation works. So people who can do far better than me should likewise be able to far better understand that they have to pull their fair share of the load.

Lets behave like adults. You don't need to invite me to see a game because I'm not an idiot. I don't need to invite you to see a game where someone ignores their entire team because likewise you are not an idiot. You know what I am discussing, and I know what you are discussing.

I am discussing one situation, you another. Let us clarify our positions. Rather than hammer your 2/3 hive opinion endlessly (which itself is inherently valid but simply doesnt apply to final hive situations), just give me your answer to the LAST HIVE situation. Defending it (direct or indirect), swiping a pointless RT while the hive dies, reasons for your choices.

Just in case you might be suspecting something, do not think this is an attempt to trap you. I agree about your points on 2nd/3rd hive defence... hell I've done most of them on servers I've played on. Shunning one hive to break the lock on the other, then recapping the lost hive once the marines have beaconed back to base. BUT THAT IS NOT THE SITUATION I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Seriously. LAST HIVE. Defend, or hide? If so, why?

On the following posts, a few comments.

Firstly, I believe res is essential to the game. Not necessarily holding it, but DEFINITELY denying it. Thats the key to any resource game - leave nothing for the enemy. However this core rule is obsolete when the final hive is threatened, because without a hive the game is OVER for aliens.

Second, I've seen games lost because the commander waited just too long before attacking a hive. Example - seiges being built, an alien spots the siege nest, and rather than ping and attack immediately (for maximum damage, since most of the aliens are now rushing to save the hive and turn all that res into smoking metal) the comm waits for all his men to phase in - giving the aliens plenty to time to counter while he bacons and phases.

Each strat has its place, and the trick is to know when which applies - not to blindly do the same thing over and over because it was the right thing to do *once*..

tjosan · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jan 25 2005, 08:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 25 2005, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jan 25 2005, 03:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> *stuff* </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
And supporting the team as a fade might actually be just doing *nothing* for a while, because a live fade is better than a dead. And losing a hive and a fade at the same time is worse than losing just a hive.

You suck. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Oh how the mask slips. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Which "percieved" mask would that be?

[Counter edit]
Dude, I cant believe you've actually been doing these mile-long posts on the merit of saving your last hive. That's hilarious <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

Gecko_God_Of_Dooom · January 2005

uh, if he is your only fade, then hes stupid for not trying to defend. simple as that.

Now if you have 3 fades, and a lerk, and the skulks arn't killing Rts, That fade might just be needed to kill RTs. With the lerk it will drain there rez. If thier heavy, then it just about doesn't matter.

If you trying to defend a location, usualy 2 fades is enough, any more just get in the way of eachother and probrably worsen the situation.and if the skulks go out and kill thier rez, then one of the fades can hit thier base, taking out the obs or the arms lab or advance armory, any thing else thats important.

basicly its like Necrosis is arguing that Ice is Cold. And the other are arguining that Fire is Hot. and both are only seing Cold and Hot and arguing over it.....

Basicly. Necrosis is saying that if you only have 1 hive, and 1 fade, that fade should be defending the hive, even if the rest of the team is being newb and not hitting a few RTs in an ATTEMPT to stop thier seige or what not, and I think most could agree if a fade is killing a RT while the hive is gonna go down, its pretty retarded. Skulks kill rts faster than fades....

2_of_Eight · January 2005

Guys, let's keep this civil please. We don't want this thread locked *me cowers* because of too heated arguments.

"Taking down their res node while they are sieging" does <b>not mean that the whole team should be taking down their res nodes</b>. One or two skulks <b>is enough</b>. Everyone else should be concentrated on stopping that siege, or delaying it. This gives the skulks who are taking down res nodes more time.

Surely, fades and lerks should not be taking down res nodes; they should be at the siege point, killing Marines. But 2-3 res nodes down, maybe 4, possibly 5, after a siege - is quite important for Aliens.

Same with Marines; when Aliens are attacking their base, or if Marines are sieging, <b>not everyone should be with the team</b>. Devote one good player to go ninja to places, take down res nodes or kill lone skulks and eggs. This cripples the Aliens immensely.

Again: attacking res nodes during a siege does not mean that everyone should be killing RTs.

MrBen · January 2005

You can’t use an example of an idiot fade killing a RT when he could of helped as justification for not fighting the res war. This entire discussion spawned from high skilled marines taking down RTs. Sorry, but it’s not our fault if base is rushed during this time and the commander can’t figure out how to beacon.

Where this fade killing a RT and not defending the only hive scenario came from **** knows. We never once said a fade shouldn’t defend his only hive unless it’s a lost cause (why bother) and we never said you should kill RTs as fade. We have said time and time again that you get your skulks to take down RTs.

Our entire argument has been ‘<i>It’s important to fight the res war</i>’ and you’ve replied ‘<i>Not when you’ve lost.</i>’ Well no freaking ****, Sherlock. If your base is rushed or your hive is shotgunned down then nothing really matters. If base gets rushed it’s not the fault of the marine getting RTs down though. If your hive gets shotgunned down it is the fault of the <b>retard</b> fade killing RTs. Congrates, your stupid example is right.

Necrosis · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
You can’t use an example of an idiot fade killing a RT when he could of helped as justification for not fighting the res war.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Noone is. Well I'm not, at least. I am using the example of an idiot killing an RT when he could HAVE helped save the last hive. This is totally different to the "res game".

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Our entire argument has been ‘It’s important to fight the res war’ and you’ve replied ‘Not when you’ve lost.’ Well no freaking ****, Sherlock.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Thats all you had to say. Pretty simple wasnt it.

Now the only thing I have to worry about is what this chicken jalfrezi is doing to my stomach.

TheAdj · January 2005

There are several aspects of the game to consider at once.

On aliens you need some people who do nothing but attack marine RTs, and barring an onos the skulk is the prime choice for RT killing duty. 2 skulks on any size map doing nothing but attacking RTs is just devastating. I actually prefer skulks who don't engage marines at all, the crappiest skulks on the team are usually best for this (usually myself included). I will actually run away from marines and attack another RT if the option is available, because if I attack and die I have to wait X amount of time before I can attack another RT, which is almost always too long. It's better to run away and live to chew another RT down than to try and attack a marine, unless I see an opportunity that gives me an innate advantage (marines that run and try to LMG you point blank behind a RT). If you can clear the map of marine RTs and have everyone else doing their job, LMG marines are helpless against fades. They simply lack the firepower to force the fade to leave and more advantageous positions are available to fades against low tech, low power marines.

Fades are far more useful on base harassment than anything else, a good fade can be devastating without having to kill many marines at all. This works best with multiple fades, with some attacking marines and slowing them down and some constantly hitting marine start and any other important strategic points (Phase gates or lockdowns mainly). This constant harassment will usually result in marines having to stay on permanent defense or in destruction of critical base structures, namely the Advanced armory. The main job of the fade is NOT to kill everything in sight, it is to delay the advancement of marines that will eventually result in more hives coming online, and therefore the base alien unit (the skulk) being a far more effectively anti-marine unit, and the fade being able to concentrate solely on base destruction, eventually with the help of the onos.

The lerk fits in rather oddly compared to every other unit. While it's mainly a support unit for fades or onos, it's definitely a capable guerrilla unit in it's own right. Lerks break camping marines easier than any other unit and with little effort, as it's impossible to hold a position with a given number of marines with a lerk nearby, especially with more than one hive.

The problem is most people can't effectively combine all of these aspects at the same time, someone wants to do something out of their range. If you have skulks attacking RTs and not sacrificing themselves to anything short of an all out marine attack on a hive, at least one fade holding marines back and one fade hitting base, a lerk supporting one of the fades and picking off marines, and skulks willing to expend res to go gorge and drop 1 RT per 2 aliens as well as drop the appropriate chamber needed and get the hive up in a timely fashion, you are HIGHLY unlikely to lose an alien game.

The fade hitting base will win the game for you by destroying the advanced armory and preventing the prototype lab from being built, as well as going for the other base structures and keeping marines tied up on defense. Guerrilla strategy relies 100% on forcing the enemy to expend a higher fraction of his forces to defend against possible attack by a smaller fraction of your guerrilla forces, as well as attacking only when it is advantageous for you, the guerrilla, to attack. Slamming skulks into a turret farm is not helpful in most situations, and only gives the marines res.

Marines have to sacrifice individuals in order to serve the whole. The commander has to get individuals to do what he wants them to do. They have to do their role, and if everyone else does their role, the commanders plan will be effectively put into action. Whether it works or not is another topic. If the commander needs 1 person to cap RTs while everyone else pushes the alien RTs, then someone needs to pony up & volunteer, or he will pick someone and drive on. When the commander says something needs to be done, <b>it needs to be done</b>. Don't **** around and do nothing or ignore him, or give excuses to why it won't work. You bloody well better do it. It's best for people to do things best suited to them, but sometimes that option isn't available and you have to just go with what's needed right then. If the commander needs something done, you do it. It's not your place as the marine to do more than offer suggestions based on the situation at hand when time is available, not to ignore the commander in the heat of the moment because you disagree. Personally I allow for people who know what they're doing to do their own thing, but I prefer that most everyone just do what I say. I know better than the majority of marines what needs to be done, so I like for them to do what I say.

The entire point of this post is that everyone has a job that they NEED to do, and while they should be flexible in switching jobs, everyone needs to do a specific thing at any given time in any given game. You must have someone doing EVERYTHING, you cannot ignore ANYTHING. Someone should be defending the hives and someone should be attacking RTs. Someone should be harassing marine start and important strategic points. Only when marines commit to an all out offensive should most aliens be drawn back to the hive, and even then some should be attacking RTs and someone should be hammering marine start.

In competitive play, the only way to break a determined marine siege is to first stem the flow of res by killing RTs. Then you focus on slowing the flow of gear through the phase gate. Then you hammer the siege point and attempt to eliminate all the marines present while hitting base to slow their movement through the gate. Then you clear the gate at the siege point and you're pretty much clear by that time. Notice I didn't mention "FLING EVERYTHING YOU HAVE AT THE SIEGE POINT AND HOPE FOR THE BEST". You break sieges by novice commanders and craptastic marines this way, you do not beat experienced commanders or capable marines by flinging numbers at them. Good siege points are marine friendly and capable of being held by few marines against great odds. Marines at Cargo on ns_tanith can annihilate pretty much any head-on attack with little effort. I've personally seen 1 marine in a clan match wipe out the entire alien team solo with anything from a HMG down to the LMG, it's very marine friendly.

This knowledge applies to normal play as well. While a team may focus on one thing, you can NEVER forget the other important things in the game, otherwise you're in an All or Nothing situation which in NS usually results in swift victory or slow agonizing defeat. You have to know what something is worth, and balance it against what everything else is worth. If you can glean an advantage from sacrificing something in order to destroy something of greater value to the enemy, then it's a good trade. When I commanded exigent we had a game on aliens against dn's marines in which we had sub hive built and pipe going up. I was lerking and scouting out pipe when the entire marine team came into the hive room. I immediately sent the ENTIRE alien team, including at least 2 and possibly 3 fades, to attack marine start. We lost the hive, but dn lost marine start. The point is you have to weigh what something is worth and spend it accordingly. It wasn't worth trying to hold that hive, so I spent my units on something more useful. You should never allow the enemy to get something for free, it must cost them <i>something</i>.

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