EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
edited January 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Jan 18 2005, 07:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Jan 18 2005, 07:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I trust the word of God a heck of a lot more than the knowledge of some puny humans. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why, you trust yourself, your perception and logic.
<!--QuoteBegin-Epidemic+Jan 18 2005, 02:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Jan 18 2005, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Jan 18 2005, 07:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Jan 18 2005, 07:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I trust the word of God a heck of a lot more than the knowledge of some puny humans. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why, you trust yourself, your perception and logic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But I acknowledge that they are sometimes flawed, whereas God's is not (assuming God exists).
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Jan 18 2005, 01:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Jan 18 2005, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wheee, your argument makes sense (for the most part) up until you tack on the morality bit. What does morality (which I claim to simply be "opinion") have to do with truth? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And where did these opinions come from? Why are they here? Why does everyone have an opinion? Why are they so unwilling to consider another person's set of opinions, if they are just that? If they are just opinions, how is it that we can enforce them through government/police/law? Does this not just reduce to a problem of "might makes right"? Are you willing to concede that, given that values and value-opinions are one and the same, that any time one group of people with a shared value opinion has numerical or military superiority to another, then it follows that the ones with the greater force should and will prevail?
I am not willing to take that road. It would mean that we have no moral obligation to help the needy, nor any moral prohibition from exploiting the weak.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 04:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 04:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And where did these opinions come from? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where do other opinions come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why are they here?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why do we have opinions?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why does everyone have an opinion? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why does anyone have opinions on anything? Religion for instance?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why are they so unwilling to consider another person's set of opinions, if they are just that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What do you mean? Maybe absolutists aren't willing to consider the opinions of others, but I and many people I know certainly are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If they are just opinions, how is it that we can enforce them through government/police/law?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Law does not exist to enforce morality. Law exists to protect individual rights.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Does this not just reduce to a problem of "might makes right"? Are you willing to concede that, given that values and value-opinions are one and the same, that any time one group of people with a shared value opinion has numerical or military superiority to another, then it follows that the ones with the greater force should and will prevail?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe not should, but it is evident, based on history, that they will. Might makes right only in the sense that might has the ability to enforce its version of what is right.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am not willing to take that road. It would mean that we have no moral obligation to help the needy, nor any moral prohibition from exploiting the weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As I was saying, might makes right only in the sense that the mighty have the ability to enforce their idea of what is right.
And, seeing as how you think that your values are only opinions, I can now safely ignore them for the rest of the discussion.
Also, another question - where did these "rights" come from? Are you promoting slavery?
as for nadagast, i haven't researched the matter extensively, so I'll throw you something until I do - apparently you read talkorigins a lot or something. <a href='http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html' target='_blank'>heh.</a> I wish Aegeri were still around, he'd be quick to tear me a new one.
P.S. skulkbait - please don't answer questions with more questions. that's just begging the question. let's have what you think the answers are.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Very well skulkbait, I will show up at your house in a couple of hours with a few buddies and shotguns. Be prepared to fight. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm entrenched, and you were kind enough to warn me... and its a long way from colorado. Trust me, I'll win.
You still seem to misinterprit what I am saying about might vs right. Just because you come over to my house and force me to behave a certain way (under penalty of death I suppose) doesn't make you right. You mearly have the means to enforce your version of "right".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And, seeing as how you think that your values are only opinions, I can now safely ignore them for the rest of the discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You could always have ignored me anyway, just as I could just ignore you. But much like your God, ignoring me won't make me go away <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> So yes, if its easier for you to just ignore what I'm saying and go on your merry absolutist way, then be my guest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, another question - where did these "rights" come from? Are you promoting slavery?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How could you possibly get that idea from anything I'eve ever written? As to rights, humans made them up. We decided one day that for a civilised society to exist its citizens require certain freedoms. The law exists to protect these freedoms. At least it does here in the US... or its supposed to anyway. I can see how in 3rd world countries like Iran religius "morality" as a template for law and frankly I think that is about the worst idea imaginable.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 04:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aha! So, might does not make right. What does then? Are rights right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nothing can "make right". As i've said, everyone decides for themselves what is right and what is wrong.
Are "rights" right? Yes, I think so. Why? Because without certain freedoms life wouldn't be worth living.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Jan 18 2005, 04:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Jan 18 2005, 04:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 04:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aha! So, might does not make right. What does then? Are rights right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nothing can "make right". As i've said, everyone decides for themselves what is right and what is wrong.
Are "rights" right? Yes, I think so. Why? Because without certain freedoms life wouldn't be worth living. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well then, I guess no one who lived before the 17th century lived a life worth living -_-.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 04:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Jan 18 2005, 04:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Jan 18 2005, 04:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 04:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aha! So, might does not make right. What does then? Are rights right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nothing can "make right". As i've said, everyone decides for themselves what is right and what is wrong.
Are "rights" right? Yes, I think so. Why? Because without certain freedoms life wouldn't be worth living. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well then, I guess no one who lived before the 17th century lived a life worth living -_-. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would say no, but obviously they had a different opinion on the matter.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 05:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm trying to keep this inoffensive as possible...but that statement makes you look like you have lived a very sheltered life.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I wouldn't say that my life is sheltered, but I would say that I can't understand how people ever lived in a world without freedom, or how they continue to. Freedom in this case being certain rights including, but not limited to: Freedom of expression, freedom of religion, and the right to due process.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*edit* out of idle curiosity, can you define "worth" as it relates to life for me?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well no, since your stated purpose is to serve your God your life is worhtless, all you have to do is get through it without screwing up bad enough that you get cast into the firey pit.
eh, you misunderstood me. I meant, how do you define the worthiness of one's life? (the for me part at the end was just to say "define it for my benefit" not "define it in relation to me")
So you meant for me to define "worth living"? Or rather, to explain why I don't think life is worth living without freedom? Well, frankly its kind of difficult to explain to someone whos already resigned themselves to eternal slavery. I would say that without freedom you aren't really living your own life, instead you're being told how to live. You're being told what to think and what to do, you aren't in control of your own fate. So if you aren't in control of your own life then why bother living at all?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Objection 6: <i>If we are not free to create our own values, we are not truly free.</i> Reply: Freedom presupposes values, it does not create them. First, it is assumed by the objector that freedom is a real (objective) value, thus presupposing objective values. Second, freedom, if it is really good, must be freedom from something really bad. This also presupposes real, objective values (good vs. bad). Third, "creating your own values" is meaningless. It is impossible. No one has ever done it, and no one ever will. It is like creating a new universe, or a new number or a new color. All who supposedly "created new values" either rediscovered old, forgotten values (like Jesus' Sermon on the Mount) or created new horrors (like the French, Bolshevik or Nazi revolutions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, just to forestall your protests that "It's only my opinion that freedom is something worth pursuing, and freedom isn't *really* good, since *real* good doesn't exist" if you say that, then there's no use debating with you. Since you have no rational basis for your opinion, and you don't seem to be willing to consider other "opinions," then it's kind of pointless for me to say anything to you. You may not go away, but for all intents and purposes it doesn't matter if you're there or not, because you add nothing to the discussion. It's like you ask me to consider whether your opinion is correct without really even considering whether mine could be right. Ironically, that implies that you actually believe your opinions to be reflective of the way things really are.
It's like ramming someone in the back on the freeway because you fell asleep while driving, and refusing to admit responsibility. Because even if you're wrong, you'll be damned if you let the man tell you what to do. STICK IT TO THE MAN!
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 06:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now, just to forestall your protests that "It's only my opinion that freedom is something worth pursuing, and freedom isn't *really* good, since *real* good doesn't exist" if you say that, then there's no use debating with you. Since you have no rational basis for your opinion, and you don't seem to be willing to consider other "opinions," then it's kind of pointless for me to say anything to you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How so? I already explained my rational basis to you. It made up the entire content of my last post. I have considered your opinions on the matter, and rejected them. I have explained why I rejected them. You're right though, at this point it is useless to arguing with me, since if you havent swayed me by now then its not likely that you will any time soon.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You may not go away, but for all intents and purposes it doesn't matter if you're there or not, because you add nothing to the discussion. It's like you ask me to consider whether your opinion is correct without really even considering whether mine could be right. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do I add nothing to the discussion? Because I am unwilling to change my opinion? Thats entirely not the point of discussion. We are exchanging ideas here. Sometimes we learn something, sometimes our worldview is challeneged sufficiently to force us to revise it, usually we just bicker. I have considered that your opinions could be right, but your logic hasn't swayed me because I find it flawed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ironically, that implies that you actually believe your opinions to be reflective of the way things really are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure everybody believes this about their opinions, or they wouldn't have them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's like ramming someone in the back on the freeway because you fell asleep while driving, and refusing to admit responsibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're going to have to explain that analogy to me. Maybe my mind is going, I haven't eaten in 2 days afterall, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
eh, discussion later, go eat something for the moment <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 06:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> eh, discussion later, go eat something for the moment <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That would defeat the point of fasting.
Okay, I took a bit to think about what your point of view is, and I came upon a startling conclusion. We actually believe things that are quite similar, except your point of view comes from assuming that no God exists, and mine that a God does exist.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 06:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay, I took a bit to think about what your point of view is, and I came upon a startling conclusion. We actually believe things that are quite similar, except your point of view comes from assuming that no God exists, and mine that a God does exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see how our views could be any more different. You believe that there is an absolute definition of right and wrong, even if human minds are unable to fully comprehend it. It is my opinion that right and wrong are human concepts and that there definitons change from person to person. Also, I don't assume the non-existance of God, I mearly don't assume that he does exist.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Jan 18 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Jan 18 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 06:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay, I took a bit to think about what your point of view is, and I came upon a startling conclusion. We actually believe things that are quite similar, except your point of view comes from assuming that no God exists, and mine that a God does exist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see how our views could be any more different. You believe that there is an absolute definition of right and wrong, even if human minds are unable to fully comprehend it. It is my opinion that right and wrong are human concepts and that there definitons change from person to person. Also, I don't assume the non-existance of God, I mearly don't assume that he does exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's fairly clear that you assume no God exists, because if you held your convictions and believed also that he exists, it would be foolish not to serve him.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 07:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Jan 18 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Jan 18 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 06:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay, I took a bit to think about what your point of view is, and I came upon a startling conclusion. We actually believe things that are quite similar, except your point of view comes from assuming that no God exists, and mine that a God does exist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see how our views could be any more different. You believe that there is an absolute definition of right and wrong, even if human minds are unable to fully comprehend it. It is my opinion that right and wrong are human concepts and that there definitons change from person to person. Also, I don't assume the non-existance of God, I mearly don't assume that he does exist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's fairly clear that you assume no God exists, because if you held your convictions and believed also that he exists, it would be foolish not to serve him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe if you go through my post history you will find my feelings about god in detail, but for now I'll just say this: I consider myself an apatheist. What this means is that I don't care wether or not God exists because I wouldn't change the way I live either way.
And actually, if the christian God exists than I would never serve him, even if it would land me in hell.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 08:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 08:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So basically you're not free at all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Um... that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In fact I think thats the least sensible thing you've ever posted, and thats saying alot.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> as for nadagast, i haven't researched the matter extensively, so I'll throw you something until I do - apparently you read talkorigins a lot or something. <a href='http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html' target='_blank'>heh.</a> I wish Aegeri were still around, he'd be quick to tear me a new one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That link has like nothing to do with the questions I asked...
Besides, assuming a mere 25000 species and calling that 'skeptical' is laughable at best.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Jan 18 2005, 08:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Jan 18 2005, 08:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 08:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 08:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So basically you're not free at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um... that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In fact I think thats the least sensible thing you've ever posted, and thats saying alot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I am confused, because you call yourself free and me a slave, when I willingly follow the morals I believe to be set by God. It's not like I can't violate them, you know. I just have faith that following them will be rewarded with more than I supposedly "give up". I make no sense, because your definition of freedom makes no sense. I just can't follow the logic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Um... that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In fact I think thats the least sensible thing you've ever posted, and thats saying alot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fighting fire with fire, man. Fire with fire.
i) S/L : Humans have intrinsic value W/M : Humans have no intrinsic value
ii) S/L: Meaning and Morals are relative to the individual W/M: Meaning and Morals are derived from the Christian God
With these fundamental differences in world-view it's no wonder that we can stare at each other in amazement for hours on end.
I would like to suggest a thought experiment that might help to explain my views somewhat:
I create an advanced A.I. (named Bob) for the purposes of peeling potatoes and I explain that I want it to be respectful towards humans. 'Bob' has free will and decides that it prefers to repair refridgerators and be as rude as possible to any human it encounters.
W/M would say that Bob's life has no meaning, because it has gone against the creator's wishes. Bob's morals have no valid basis because they do not correspond to the creator's values (which are assumed to be 'perfect').
S/L would say that Bob has found meaning for itself beyond the original design specifications. Bob's life has meaning because Bob is happy with repairing refridgerators. Bob's morals are perfectly valid for Bob (but being rude to humans may have consequences Bob won't like).
Whats the objective truth here? Bob has made a decision as a free willed entity. I had plans for Bob that didn't work out. Does this mean that Bob is living a worthless life? Tell that to Bob!
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 10:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 10:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Jan 18 2005, 08:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Jan 18 2005, 08:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 18 2005, 08:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 18 2005, 08:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So basically you're not free at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um... that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In fact I think thats the least sensible thing you've ever posted, and thats saying alot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I am confused, because you call yourself free and me a slave, when I willingly follow the morals I believe to be set by God. It's not like I can't violate them, you know. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I call you a slave not because of what you do on earth, but because of how you will spend your afterlife: as a servent. I only use the term slave because it has more impact.
I have also chosen. I have chose to to not be the servent of anyone, let alone a bastard like the almighty. I have accepted that this(if christianity is to be believed) will condemn me to hell for eternity. I would gladly suffer for eternity then serve the christian god.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just have faith that following them will be rewarded with more than I supposedly "give up". I make no sense, because your definition of freedom makes no sense. I just can't follow the logic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't follow your logic. Why is it that my definition of freedom makes no sense?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i) S/L : Humans have intrinsic value W/M : Humans have no intrinsic value<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't nessesarily say that humans have intrinsic value. However, in the thought experiment you have guaged my response accurately.
The problem is this. If you admit the Christian God exists, then you also admit he cannot be thwarted by extension of his omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. That means that, somehow or other, you will end up serving him. So you can do it willingly, or unwillingly. If you do it unwillingly, that doesn't really mean that you're more free than me. That's why I said you presuppose that God does not exist.
As to FilthyLarry's comment about creating an advanced AI.
Let's say the A.I. decided to peel carrots instead of boil potatoes.
S/L would say "Bob is free from the creator, and his actions are dictated by himself. Bob is now truely alive." M/W would say "that stupid **** zomg he's so dead" or "Bob's perception that he is alive by choosing his own path. What he doesn't realize is that I'm cooking stew tonight, and he's accomplishing my purpose. MUAHAHAH." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> all kidding aside, M/W would say "Bob is truely alive even if he doesn't choose to disobey the creator. If the qualifications for life are choosing based on free will, then Bob choosing to follow the creator's order does not make him any less alive or free. However, at the end of the day, one of these two possibilities will find itself in the junk yard."
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Jan 19 2005, 12:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Jan 19 2005, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is this. If you admit the Christian God exists, then you also admit he cannot be thwarted by extension of his omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. That means that, somehow or other, you will end up serving him. So you can do it willingly, or unwillingly. If you do it unwillingly, that doesn't really mean that you're more free than me. That's why I said you presuppose that God does not exist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That doesn't make any sense. If I'm serving god no matter what I do, then what is the importance of my choice between God and sin? If there isn't any importnace, then why did god give me freewill? If he didn't give me freewill, then I was precondemned to hell, and if that is the case then he truely isn't the all-loving god he portrays himself as.
Besides which, I would still never willingly serve him, even if there were no escape from doing his bidding. Hell, that just goes further to my point that god is an ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As to FilthyLarry's comment about creating an advanced AI.
Let's say the A.I. decided to peel carrots instead of boil potatoes.
S/L would say "Bob is free from the creator, and his actions are dictated by himself. Bob is now truely alive." M/W would say "that stupid **** zomg he's so dead" or "Bob's perception that he is alive by choosing his own path. What he doesn't realize is that I'm cooking stew tonight, and he's accomplishing my purpose. MUAHAHAH." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> all kidding aside, M/W would say "Bob is truely alive even if he doesn't choose to disobey the creator. If the qualifications for life are choosing based on free will, then Bob choosing to follow the creator's order does not make him any less alive or free. However, at the end of the day, one of these two possibilities will find itself in the junk yard."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right, bobs choice has no effect on wether or not he is more alive, but that was not the point of the thought experiment.
Comments
Why, you trust yourself, your perception and logic.
Why, you trust yourself, your perception and logic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I acknowledge that they are sometimes flawed, whereas God's is not (assuming God exists).
And where did these opinions come from? Why are they here? Why does everyone have an opinion? Why are they so unwilling to consider another person's set of opinions, if they are just that? If they are just opinions, how is it that we can enforce them through government/police/law? Does this not just reduce to a problem of "might makes right"? Are you willing to concede that, given that values and value-opinions are one and the same, that any time one group of people with a shared value opinion has numerical or military superiority to another, then it follows that the ones with the greater force should and will prevail?
I am not willing to take that road. It would mean that we have no moral obligation to help the needy, nor any moral prohibition from exploiting the weak.
Where do other opinions come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why are they here?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do we have opinions?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Why does everyone have an opinion?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why does anyone have opinions on anything? Religion for instance?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why are they so unwilling to consider another person's set of opinions, if they are just that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you mean? Maybe absolutists aren't willing to consider the opinions of others, but I and many people I know certainly are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If they are just opinions, how is it that we can enforce them through government/police/law?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Law does not exist to enforce morality. Law exists to protect individual rights.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Does this not just reduce to a problem of "might makes right"? Are you willing to concede that, given that values and value-opinions are one and the same, that any time one group of people with a shared value opinion has numerical or military superiority to another, then it follows that the ones with the greater force should and will prevail?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe not should, but it is evident, based on history, that they will. Might makes right only in the sense that might has the ability to enforce its version of what is right.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am not willing to take that road. It would mean that we have no moral obligation to help the needy, nor any moral prohibition from exploiting the weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I was saying, might makes right only in the sense that the mighty have the ability to enforce their idea of what is right.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And, seeing as how you think that your values are only opinions, I can now safely ignore them for the rest of the discussion.
Also, another question - where did these "rights" come from? Are you promoting slavery?
as for nadagast, i haven't researched the matter extensively, so I'll throw you something until I do - apparently you read talkorigins a lot or something. <a href='http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html' target='_blank'>heh.</a> I wish Aegeri were still around, he'd be quick to tear me a new one.
P.S. skulkbait - please don't answer questions with more questions. that's just begging the question. let's have what you think the answers are.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm entrenched, and you were kind enough to warn me... and its a long way from colorado. Trust me, I'll win.
You still seem to misinterprit what I am saying about might vs right. Just because you come over to my house and force me to behave a certain way (under penalty of death I suppose) doesn't make you right. You mearly have the means to enforce your version of "right".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
And, seeing as how you think that your values are only opinions, I can now safely ignore them for the rest of the discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could always have ignored me anyway, just as I could just ignore you. But much like your God, ignoring me won't make me go away <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> So yes, if its easier for you to just ignore what I'm saying and go on your merry absolutist way, then be my guest.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, another question - where did these "rights" come from? Are you promoting slavery?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How could you possibly get that idea from anything I'eve ever written? As to rights, humans made them up. We decided one day that for a civilised society to exist its citizens require certain freedoms. The law exists to protect these freedoms. At least it does here in the US... or its supposed to anyway. I can see how in 3rd world countries like Iran religius "morality" as a template for law and frankly I think that is about the worst idea imaginable.
Nothing can "make right". As i've said, everyone decides for themselves what is right and what is wrong.
Are "rights" right? Yes, I think so. Why? Because without certain freedoms life wouldn't be worth living.
Nothing can "make right". As i've said, everyone decides for themselves what is right and what is wrong.
Are "rights" right? Yes, I think so. Why? Because without certain freedoms life wouldn't be worth living. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then, I guess no one who lived before the 17th century lived a life worth living -_-.
Nothing can "make right". As i've said, everyone decides for themselves what is right and what is wrong.
Are "rights" right? Yes, I think so. Why? Because without certain freedoms life wouldn't be worth living. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then, I guess no one who lived before the 17th century lived a life worth living -_-. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say no, but obviously they had a different opinion on the matter.
*edit* out of idle curiosity, can you define "worth" as it relates to life for me?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I wouldn't say that my life is sheltered, but I would say that I can't understand how people ever lived in a world without freedom, or how they continue to. Freedom in this case being certain rights including, but not limited to: Freedom of expression, freedom of religion, and the right to due process.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*edit* out of idle curiosity, can you define "worth" as it relates to life for me?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well no, since your stated purpose is to serve your God your life is worhtless, all you have to do is get through it without screwing up bad enough that you get cast into the firey pit.
Well, good thing, because here's something else:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Objection 6:
<i>If we are not free to create our own values, we are not truly free.</i>
Reply: Freedom presupposes values, it does not create them. First, it is assumed by the objector that freedom is a real (objective) value, thus presupposing objective values. Second, freedom, if it is really good, must be freedom from something really bad. This also presupposes real, objective values (good vs. bad). Third, "creating your own values" is meaningless. It is impossible. No one has ever done it, and no one ever will. It is like creating a new universe, or a new number or a new color. All who supposedly "created new values" either rediscovered old, forgotten values (like Jesus' Sermon on the Mount) or created new horrors (like the French, Bolshevik or Nazi revolutions.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, just to forestall your protests that "It's only my opinion that freedom is something worth pursuing, and freedom isn't *really* good, since *real* good doesn't exist" if you say that, then there's no use debating with you. Since you have no rational basis for your opinion, and you don't seem to be willing to consider other "opinions," then it's kind of pointless for me to say anything to you. You may not go away, but for all intents and purposes it doesn't matter if you're there or not, because you add nothing to the discussion. It's like you ask me to consider whether your opinion is correct without really even considering whether mine could be right.
Ironically, that implies that you actually believe your opinions to be reflective of the way things really are.
It's like ramming someone in the back on the freeway because you fell asleep while driving, and refusing to admit responsibility. Because even if you're wrong, you'll be damned if you let the man tell you what to do. STICK IT TO THE MAN!
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How so? I already explained my rational basis to you. It made up the entire content of my last post. I have considered your opinions on the matter, and rejected them. I have explained why I rejected them. You're right though, at this point it is useless to arguing with me, since if you havent swayed me by now then its not likely that you will any time soon.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You may not go away, but for all intents and purposes it doesn't matter if you're there or not, because you add nothing to the discussion. It's like you ask me to consider whether your opinion is correct without really even considering whether mine could be right. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do I add nothing to the discussion? Because I am unwilling to change my opinion? Thats entirely not the point of discussion. We are exchanging ideas here. Sometimes we learn something, sometimes our worldview is challeneged sufficiently to force us to revise it, usually we just bicker. I have considered that your opinions could be right, but your logic hasn't swayed me because I find it flawed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Ironically, that implies that you actually believe your opinions to be reflective of the way things really are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure everybody believes this about their opinions, or they wouldn't have them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's like ramming someone in the back on the freeway because you fell asleep while driving, and refusing to admit responsibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're going to have to explain that analogy to me. Maybe my mind is going, I haven't eaten in 2 days afterall, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
That would defeat the point of fasting.
I don't see how our views could be any more different. You believe that there is an absolute definition of right and wrong, even if human minds are unable to fully comprehend it. It is my opinion that right and wrong are human concepts and that there definitons change from person to person. Also, I don't assume the non-existance of God, I mearly don't assume that he does exist.
I don't see how our views could be any more different. You believe that there is an absolute definition of right and wrong, even if human minds are unable to fully comprehend it. It is my opinion that right and wrong are human concepts and that there definitons change from person to person. Also, I don't assume the non-existance of God, I mearly don't assume that he does exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's fairly clear that you assume no God exists, because if you held your convictions and believed also that he exists, it would be foolish not to serve him.
I don't see how our views could be any more different. You believe that there is an absolute definition of right and wrong, even if human minds are unable to fully comprehend it. It is my opinion that right and wrong are human concepts and that there definitons change from person to person. Also, I don't assume the non-existance of God, I mearly don't assume that he does exist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's fairly clear that you assume no God exists, because if you held your convictions and believed also that he exists, it would be foolish not to serve him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe if you go through my post history you will find my feelings about god in detail, but for now I'll just say this: I consider myself an apatheist. What this means is that I don't care wether or not God exists because I wouldn't change the way I live either way.
And actually, if the christian God exists than I would never serve him, even if it would land me in hell.
Um... that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In fact I think thats the least sensible thing you've ever posted, and thats saying alot.
That link has like nothing to do with the questions I asked...
Besides, assuming a mere 25000 species and calling that 'skeptical' is laughable at best.
Um... that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In fact I think thats the least sensible thing you've ever posted, and thats saying alot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I am confused, because you call yourself free and me a slave, when I willingly follow the morals I believe to be set by God. It's not like I can't violate them, you know. I just have faith that following them will be rewarded with more than I supposedly "give up". I make no sense, because your definition of freedom makes no sense. I just can't follow the logic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Um... that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In fact I think thats the least sensible thing you've ever posted, and thats saying alot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fighting fire with fire, man. Fire with fire.
i) S/L : Humans have intrinsic value
W/M : Humans have no intrinsic value
ii) S/L: Meaning and Morals are relative to the individual
W/M: Meaning and Morals are derived from the Christian God
With these fundamental differences in world-view it's no wonder that we can stare at each other in amazement for hours on end.
I would like to suggest a thought experiment that might help to explain my views somewhat:
I create an advanced A.I. (named Bob) for the purposes of peeling potatoes and I explain that I want it to be respectful towards humans. 'Bob' has free will and decides that it prefers to repair refridgerators and be as rude as possible to any human it encounters.
W/M would say that Bob's life has no meaning, because it has gone against the creator's wishes. Bob's morals have no valid basis because they do not correspond to the creator's values (which are assumed to be 'perfect').
S/L would say that Bob has found meaning for itself beyond the original design specifications. Bob's life has meaning because Bob is happy with repairing refridgerators. Bob's morals are perfectly valid for Bob (but being rude to humans may have consequences Bob won't like).
Whats the objective truth here? Bob has made a decision as a free willed entity. I had plans for Bob that didn't work out. Does this mean that Bob is living a worthless life? Tell that to Bob!
Um... that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In fact I think thats the least sensible thing you've ever posted, and thats saying alot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I am confused, because you call yourself free and me a slave, when I willingly follow the morals I believe to be set by God. It's not like I can't violate them, you know. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I call you a slave not because of what you do on earth, but because of how you will spend your afterlife: as a servent. I only use the term slave because it has more impact.
I have also chosen. I have chose to to not be the servent of anyone, let alone a bastard like the almighty. I have accepted that this(if christianity is to be believed) will condemn me to hell for eternity. I would gladly suffer for eternity then serve the christian god.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just have faith that following them will be rewarded with more than I supposedly "give up". I make no sense, because your definition of freedom makes no sense. I just can't follow the logic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't follow your logic. Why is it that my definition of freedom makes no sense?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i) S/L : Humans have intrinsic value
W/M : Humans have no intrinsic value<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't nessesarily say that humans have intrinsic value. However, in the thought experiment you have guaged my response accurately.
As to FilthyLarry's comment about creating an advanced AI.
Let's say the A.I. decided to peel carrots instead of boil potatoes.
S/L would say "Bob is free from the creator, and his actions are dictated by himself. Bob is now truely alive." M/W would say "that stupid **** zomg he's so dead" or "Bob's perception that he is alive by choosing his own path. What he doesn't realize is that I'm cooking stew tonight, and he's accomplishing my purpose. MUAHAHAH." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> all kidding aside, M/W would say "Bob is truely alive even if he doesn't choose to disobey the creator. If the qualifications for life are choosing based on free will, then Bob choosing to follow the creator's order does not make him any less alive or free. However, at the end of the day, one of these two possibilities will find itself in the junk yard."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't make any sense. If I'm serving god no matter what I do, then what is the importance of my choice between God and sin? If there isn't any importnace, then why did god give me freewill? If he didn't give me freewill, then I was precondemned to hell, and if that is the case then he truely isn't the all-loving god he portrays himself as.
Besides which, I would still never willingly serve him, even if there were no escape from doing his bidding. Hell, that just goes further to my point that god is an ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
As to FilthyLarry's comment about creating an advanced AI.
Let's say the A.I. decided to peel carrots instead of boil potatoes.
S/L would say "Bob is free from the creator, and his actions are dictated by himself. Bob is now truely alive." M/W would say "that stupid **** zomg he's so dead" or "Bob's perception that he is alive by choosing his own path. What he doesn't realize is that I'm cooking stew tonight, and he's accomplishing my purpose. MUAHAHAH." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> all kidding aside, M/W would say "Bob is truely alive even if he doesn't choose to disobey the creator. If the qualifications for life are choosing based on free will, then Bob choosing to follow the creator's order does not make him any less alive or free. However, at the end of the day, one of these two possibilities will find itself in the junk yard."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, bobs choice has no effect on wether or not he is more alive, but that was not the point of the thought experiment.