<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Jan 13 2005, 01:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Jan 13 2005, 01:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In competitive play ns_veil is a marine biased map, aliens hardly ever win a round unless there is a large skill difference between the two clans. In public play, the stats gathered from lunixmonster show that aliens have a 2:1 ratio of wins. Which stats do you think are truely representative of map balance? The ones in a controlled enviroment or the ones from a random enviroment? I know which i listened to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Veil, as it stands in beta 5, seems to be highly dependant on early frags. If the marines get those early frags, they will dominate the map. I've seen it many times on clan matches, where the marines get 10+ kills in the first few minutes, and from then on seem unstopable. Perhaps its the open ness of it all, the spacing of the RTs, I don't know. Just seems that early frags have a large impact on that map.
Also I do understand where your coming from, on any map, a commander who can co-ordinate his team, will come out on top 90% of the time. The issue arises in public play when you drop your marines 3 JP and shotguns - what do they do, fly of randomly (even with waypoints <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) and die. Drop these to 3 of your guys in a match, and they dont even ask - they go straight for the hive, as they know instantly your intention with them. I wonder how many times a public hive needs to be taken down in less than a minute with 3 shotgun JPs before they call "over powered" on that too.
The difference between clan play and public play is yes, teamwork (wait... I think I saw this in the thread somewhere...) The main reason why pubs can't quite keep up with this teamwork is that clans tend to a) Know all their roles, one DCs, one hive, one permgorge, one rt then lerk, two fades b) Know where they're supposed to go, i.e. you two cover topographical, we'll cover west access c) Know a,b <u>before</u> the game even starts
I think that's pretty much why the game's balance should be aided by the advice of clanners. I think we all missed the note that someone posted... notice how there is no 'for' in that sentence? It's because when you start trying to balance for a certain gametype you start leaving others in the dust. But hey, advice from great players is great for the balance of any game, right?
You know the feeling you get when you play a public, and everyone is trying thier hardest, and the other team is trying thier hardest, is one non stop action packed game, and your team just barely wins, or barely loses. but at the end you think to yourself. "NOW THAT WAS GG, FUN GAME" Those types of games are rare in pubs, but to most of you, thats one of the sole resions you play and continue to play NS. When you get those amazing games. Those amazing games happen prob once out of every 10 pub games you play. Maybe more maybe less.
anyone and everyone who continues to play ns, knows what im talking about, knows that feeling.
Now I want you to imigine that happening almost every game you play, it is that fast paced, fun, and everyone on you team is trying thier hardest and you know it. That is what clan play is all about. and if you Like that feeling, then you should play for a clan.
In pub play, what sometimes happens is, You trying your hardest for the team to win, and half the team is continualy jumping into a lava pit. OR you put up the hive, spending you 50 rez, it goes under attack and dies with absolutly nobody helping to defend you hive, because they were building an OC farm in double, only to have it seiged because that hive you put up would have given your team the stregth to defend double. If you Dont like that feeling, then you should play for a clan.
You will have your ups and downs as a clan, but I know you will have More UP times, than Down times if you stick with it. Being in a clan is a little tougher than pubbing it up.
While at the same time, a Big Mac is alot cheaper than a Nice T-Bone Steak grilled to perfection, but trust me, that T-Bone steak is worth it.
but dont take my word for it, come find out for youself, ive listed plenty of ways to start experiancing the higher levels of play.
Try the T-Bone Steak at least once is what were saying, and you will see the diffrance, and all it will cost you is a little time, and effort? In the end you still can go back to your BigMac pubbing. but I garentee you, that you will make a few good friends while trying out that T-Bone Steak clan play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"When scientists do experiements they control variables, temperature, PH, contamination, they create conditions and then maintain them."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clan play is entirely analogue, with not even individual players performance being predictable, this comment has no bearing on reality. As a group, clan players are statistically insignificant from a scientific perspective.
The way things are tested in the real world is by statistical analysis of empirical data. That is how balance would be achieved in pub play. You keep tweaking until the combined win/lose ratio of all pub games on all maps for a defined period reaches a parity. Then you compare that defined timeframe against another and see if it also has parity. And so forth.
Perfect balance on ANY level is next to impossible in an assymetric game. NS has additional problems because there is a significant disparity in positive feedback depending on the quality of user input. That feedback is also laterally biased, rewarding Kharaa players more than Frontiersmen.
As an additional complication, over time the dynamic will change due to the gradual adoption of the skillset required to play the deeply unconventional Kharaa. This will result in the overall capability of the kharaa steadily increasing over time, only to then drop when a beta is released and a new influx of players are added to the statistical sample. This will affect clan play less, but it will still effect it.
So to summarise:
You can balance public play, by means of statistical analysis. Each individual game is not any indication of balance. Of course not. Neither is a single clan game. Your first two paragraphs of your statement are meaningless because they are based on logical fallacies and emotion, rather than an objective view of established statistical fact.
Or perhaps I'm wrong and confused. It's entirely possible. Ask coil or Nemesis, they're pretty good at statistical analysis. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Jan 12 2005, 07:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Jan 12 2005, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know what it states.
"A cat has for legs. A dog has for legs. Therefore a dog is a cat."
That is a clear and logical statement. It's still meaningless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am sorry, but it is my belief that you do not know how to form a sound logical statement.
A correct way of saying what you just said would be:
All animals with four legs are cats. Dogs have four legs. Ergo: A dog is a cat.
This is sound logic, although the conclusion is incorrect since the premises it was based on was incorrect.
Your statement was the following:
A can has four legs. Dogs have four legs. Ergo: A cat is a dog.
This is neither sound logic nor true.
A good webpage if you want to read up on inductive or deductive logic as well as logical fallacies: <a href='http://webpages.shepherd.edu/maustin/rhetoric/deductiv.htm' target='_blank'>http://webpages.shepherd.edu/maustin/rhetoric/deductiv.htm</a>
What MrBen did was to form a hyothesis, this is the first step of creating a theory based on sound logic. A good way of arguing against that hypothesis would be to critizise it using sound logic as well as backing it up with facts. You did neither. In my opinion, MrBen used an analogy (the one with a scientifical experience) which works very well in this case. Analogies is one kind of sound logics.
Sorry for anything not perfectly clear, English is not my native language and I have only studied logics in Swedish.
P.M. Note the use of ad hominem in my last sentence, and feel the weight of it.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited January 2005
It's an excellent example of how tired I am that I spelt "four" incorrectly. However, you are missing the point from both a logical and linguistic perspective.
An analogy isn't any form of logical argument at all. An analogy is a form of simile used to illustrate a point. Your usage of English idiom, latin, and logic are all also incorrect.
There's a point beyond which no more communication can be made. It's been reached. Let's just agree to differ.
Assumption: 1. Adding one lmg-bullet worth of hp to skulk constitutes a way to fine tune balance. 2. One bullet more hp would not change the overall kill:death ratio of a general public player, regardless of being skulk/marine. 3. One bullet more hp would change the overall kill:death ratio of a skilled player playing competetively.
Hypothesis: To fine tune with public play as a base would have minimal to no effect on public play balance, but would effect competetive play in making khaara stronger. To fine tune with competetive play as a base would balance competetive play, while having minimal to no effect on public play.
------
Assumptions: 1. To keep a community alive and going, there needs to be communities such as fan sites. 2. Fan sites needs news. 3. News can come from different sources, such as interviews of developers, new patches and fan fiction as well as interviews, predictions, cups or other things connected with a competetive scene. 4. In other sports/games (I elect to define NS a sport/game) such as football, icehockey or Counter Strike, news of competetive scenes dominate the fan sites, and have a large positive effect on the communities activity and size.
Hypothesis: NS would benifit greatly from a thriving competetive scene, in the same way as the examples of games given above.
-----
Assumptions: 1. Players in the competetive part of the community have generally played the game a long time and like the game. 2. Players in the competetive part of the community will only stay if they feel the game in fun for them to play. 3. An important part of keeping the game fun for players in the competetive part of the community is keeping the game fit for competetive play. 4. The game needs to be balanced for competetive play to be fit for competetive play. 5. The players outside the competetive part of the community will either a) move on to a game before they are skilled enough to notice problems with balance b) after an undefined amount of time move migrate to the competetive part of the community c) continue to play in this category for as long as players in the competetive part of the community. 6. Of the above three types of players, c) is a small minority. 7. Balancing for the competetive part of the community would satisfy a) the competetive part of the community b) eventually the people of 5b. 8. Balancing for the competetive part of the community will upset the people of 5c, while the people of 5a will not notice the difference.
Hypothesis: Balancing the game for the competetive scene will in the end satisfy the largest portion of dedicated players.
Summary: the above is part of what I base my opinion regarding which group of players to balance the game for. My opinion is that the game is best balanced for the competetive part of the community, since they, over time and in a thriving community, represents the largest portion of the dedicated player base.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Jan 12 2005, 07:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Jan 12 2005, 07:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A can has four legs. Dogs have four legs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cans Don't Have Legs
Clanning > pubbing, end of story.
Overall, I've said it long ago... The playtesters, and IRC ops also.. yes they pose as figures of the community, need to be redone. Someone who is in charge needs to get the balls to whipe the playtest and redo it, as well as whipe the IRC ops and redo them. A VERY big change is needed in the community, and not a single person is doing a damn thing about it. I've taken my step, and opened the gates to the newest forum that is coming, dedicated to letting people know about scripts, and what they are, as oppsed to them being 'hacks' or 'cheats'... That is the biggest step I've taken to do for this community, and that step is a big one. It's something that needs to be done, obviously, seeing as the player skill gap is increasing ever-so greatly. Now it's somebody else's turn to do what needs to be done with the playtest, which is ineffective to say the least, and even our IRC ops, who are straight up ****, don't promote the game in any way, and do nothing, at all.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-todd1Ok+Jan 12 2005, 08:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (todd1Ok @ Jan 12 2005, 08:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yay for trolls. no one said you had to join a clan to enjoy the game. you can play all the pub play you want. but lets imagine for a moment, that this game was infact balanced for clan play. do you not think that pub's would adapt and play differently?
and whats so wrong with being in a clan? it can be a rich and vigourating experience. i had no idea what scf was when i joined it. now ive formed friendships with memebrs of my clan that i will carry with me for the rest of my life. and who says you have to join one? get 5 friends and start your own. ns always needs more clans. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He's not really trolling.
I've grown to support clan play a <b>lot</b> more than when I started with NS, but I still don't agree with balancing around it. Allow me to provide an example.
NSPlayer(126) joins 'Random server that is dead good olololo' for his first ever game of NS. He's smart, talented and will probably be a credit to the game. However, in his first <i>public</i> game, aliens get stomped into the floor. Utterly destroyed. This all comes because the aliens didn't function well as a team.
"Okay," thinks NSPlayer(126) "Let's go this again, or maybe another server."
Rounds 2 & 3 are identical. Just as aliens begin to coalese together, the Marines stomp in with Shotguns & Mines, and eat the hive alive.
"Hey guys!" he hollers, "Is this normal? I mean, I feel kind of owned. I am new tho, so it might be that."
"Nope" replies 'OLOLOLO ^_^' (Smurfing, probably) "This is fairly normal for a n00b pub."
"Oh."
NSPlayer(126) tries a few more servers, just to be sure. Maybe it was just the players there? Nope, same result, every game. NSPlayer(126), eventually defeated & frustrated, uninstalls NS and goes back to any one of the 5,000,000 FPS competing for his attention.
Public play is where you <b>ALL</b> came from, at some point. One balance relies on the other. It's probably not possible to make the game perfect at all levels, but to try to balance one at the expense of <b>either</b> is long-term suicide. If balance is achieved for public, there will be no competitive scene in 12 months, and the game will die a slow death. If balance is achieved for clan play, the game will stagnate, and no new players will arrive. Clans by nature haemorrhage players, so slowly the counts will drop without active recruitment. You can't have active recruitment without players to recruit from.
Unless, of course, you want another stack of de_dust'ers. You know, the ones who 3 seconds into the game haven't got to 'PWN N000Bs' cry "this game sucks." and quit?
want real balance? get clans in to servers with each other. get them playing. have devs spectating. listen to what they say. alter maps. change upgrades. yes, ns is in a state of psuedo balance in terms of lifeforms. when i originally posted i didnt make my point clear. when i say the game should be balanced for clan play, i meant more than upgrades or somesuch. theres more to the game than upgrades. theres the irrevocably long hallways on ayumi and veil. theres u turn on mineshaft. theres those bloody lips in the floor outside equilibrium that *ALWAYS* slow my bunnyhopping when im rushing that siege outpost with 2 marines making a siege cannon. map balance is just as important as lifefrom balance, obviously. every minute detail of the game should, imo, be balanced for clan play. not because i say so, but because it will also be better for publics too. they just dont know it yet.
and yea, those statements about alien upgrades applied to public co...was feeling **** off because 4 lvl 3 hmg/sg couldent kill a single carapaced redemp onos on core. should have showed more tact, sorry for misleading. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
also i didnt misinterpret the interview. i was just using this as an example, because i simply could not put it so eliquently.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->theres those bloody lips in the floor outside equilibrium that *ALWAYS* slow my bunnyhopping <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
? Are you serious? gg variety, nice knowing ya...
Here's a serious tip for all you clanners: The whole "clan > pub" line is incredibly pompous and is really not helping make you so-called clanners look good. I think you guys need to work on your image a bit if you want us "nub pubbers" to respect your thoughts some more. (Many a good point has been lost in a sea of arrogance in many of these arguments.) This is a case of "the few making the many look bad".
After reading this thread it kinda makes me glad that I don't have enough time to play much NS and be in a clan.
Does ALL clanners turn into pompous **** or something? Cause I really would hate to join that crowd.
What I don't understand is what makes clanners think that they have a right to come up with demands on a game that isn't even their own? What gives clanners the right to ignore and trample suggestions and ideas of pubbers? What is it that makes the clanners think that the NS universe revolves around them and them alone? What in GOD'S NAME makes them think that THEIR demands would be for the BETTER of the game?
This isn't the first thread that I've read about the whole clanner vs pubber situation but each time I read one of these threads, I always see that clanners think that they are better than pubbers. Maybe they are, skillwise, but since when did skill give them the right to demand for anything?
Second of all, most players aren't clanners. Most players are people who just want to sit back and enjoy a couple of hours of NS and then go do something else. Most players don't care much about competition or "who is better than who". All they want is to have some fun.
Third of all, public servers will ALWAYS be less organised than clan servers and clan games. No balance in the world will ever improve this. It's just how it is. On rare occasions, organization may occur but this is rare.
Fourth of all, since clan games are so DIFFERENT to public games, how on earth can these self-egoistic clanners KNOW that balancing the game for clanners will automatically improve public games?
It's really disturbing that the rift between clanners and non-clanners have grown so deep in this community. And it's even more disturbing that it's the small group of clanners that brought this upon themselves. If they weren't so full of themselves, all of this wouldn't be needed.
Mind this ain't aimed at ALL clanners...only those who are the most blown up.
So basically you want new players to be able to compete straight away with players who have been playing for a long time? If you're new to ANY game you will be stomped by ANY player regardless of which way the game is balanced. Unless of course you're suggesting everything is nerfed for the lowest demoninator? You can't expect someone who has never played before to do anything but get stomped, he doesn't even know wth a gorge is ffs and you expect him to play well againist people who have been playing for months, maybe even years?
Lets say you have play a few 1000 public NS matches and record the win lose ratio for marines and aliens. Results <a href='http://devnull.vision-host.net/results.html' target='_blank'>here</a>. These results are taken from lunixmonster. The aliens win 75% of these matches. From the numbers it'd appears that aliens are the powerful team because they're winning more and from that you can assume that they need changes to balance them out.
However if you look at the individual matches you see that the numbers aren't representative of any sort of balance. Here is how a few matches were played:
Match 1: A new player goes commander and doesn't get any upgrades. Outcome: Aliens win
Match 2: High skilled clanner on marine team, same commander. This clanner camps outside the hive and creates a decent kill ratio; commander turret farms hives whilst he does. Outcome: Marine wins
Match 3: The high skilled clanner goes alien and fades. Wracks up a 70-3 score. Outcome: Aliens win
Match 4: No commander, gg. Outcome: Aliens win.
I could continue to make examples like this but it's not needed. Aliens won 3:1 of those matches, this trend continues as the results show. To balance this to reach parity you would need to boost the marine game. However, when you look at the details of the individual matches you see clearly that the aliens aren't overpowered. For two of the match’s one high skilled player better than anyone on the server is the only person keeping the aliens in it and in the other the commander is a new and doesn't understand what to do. Most of the 2000 other matches have similar circumstances, which when looked at individually show that aliens aren't overpowered. How do you balance a game with such a difference in individual skill level? Are you planning on nerfing the high skilled player when he goes fade but boost the HP of a newer one?
You cannot balance for public play because you cannot control any variables. Do you assume that simply because the scores are at parity that the game is balanced? One round you have a high skilled fade, the next you have someone who never faded before and the aliens don't drop a second hive. Marines 1. Aliens 1. Is that parity? How can you balance for random variables, do you make it so the walker fades are able to survive longer? Or do you instead lower fade HP because the clanner is too powerful? How about you take a test before you join the server and your HP is decided by your results.
You can draw conclusions from public play data but it's useless. It's like looking at the outcome of rolling a dice and then drawing conclusions from it that certain numbers are more popular because they turned up more. The results are totally down to chance and don't represent anything.
Instead you take the results from clan matches. Two evenly matched teams with equal skill levels. You no longer have to worry about variables like **** commanders, walker fades, no second hives, etc. With these variables controlled the results you get are more representative results on which team is really winning most of the matches. You then statistically analysis the results from the clan match and you get appropriate data to draw conclusions from and in turn balance the game.
Note: Balancing for competitive play would have NO effect on public play. Balancing for public play would DESTROY competitive play.
the point is not whether or not clanplay is better intrinsically (no doubt many of you have your own annoying opinions on this), but that clanplay, which ideally is high level play, is where you should look in order to figure out how to balance the game
it is not so much what's good for clans, as what's good for game balance. which the clans will happen to be very appreciative of and in fact all players should be; newbies just won't notice cuz they won't know the difference. Of course this is assuming the balance does not come at the expense of anything good, but remember, unbalance = automatic bad and no fun; the game <i>must be</i> balanced, regardless of the implementation. Maybe some idiot likes the feeling of waddling his fat onos @ss into marine base and singlehandedly killing the entire marine team 5 times over, but let that person play with bots and cheats on their own time and in their own space instead of bothering anybody
stop taking things out of context, taking things personally, emotional whining etc and instead, really consider the situation levelly. stop thinking noob = you, maybe you'll stop being one
Regardless of what you think x or y person does with his mom and dog, how do we balance the game?
obviously, we must look at the game played to its limits. that way we can find out whether or not something is overpowered. Then we can go about figuring what to do bout it
If you wanna take the game to the limit, then start including ALL factors...which in other words mean, start taking public games into account as well, and not only clan games.
Maybe you guys should give clan play a shot before you start making threads like this. That was the original intent of the interview. To show people that there is a competative scene out there and it is fun and different from pub play. We never intended it to alienate a certain group or tell you which one was better. I think you guys will be very surprised at what you will find. If you find those 'pompus' clanner guys beating up on your clan just know there IS a rule for that. It goes under bad sportsmanship and you can take it up with me. PM me at CAL-ns|Hsu or find me on #caleague-ns anytime and I will try to take care of it if I can.
Of course, if you've never never tried clan play and you intend on bashing clan play because of these 'assumptions' I challenge you to at least try it before turning a perfectly good thread into a flamewar.
That's a really good advice...something I've considered a lot...but you know...I'm in this situation like a lot of other people. This situation is called real life, which doesn't give me time to be in a clan.
Not every NS player spends 3+ hours or more playing every single day. Think about that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Skyrage+Jan 13 2005, 02:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skyrage @ Jan 13 2005, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's a really good advice...something I've considered a lot...but you know...I'm in this situation like a lot of other people. This situation is called real life, which doesn't give me time to be in a clan.
Not every NS player spends 3+ hours or more playing every single day. Think about that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been in quite a few clans in my life in ns and I can tell you personally that scrimming 3+ hours a day will do a lot more harm than good. Most clans scrim 3-5 hours max a week unless they're reflect, terror or exigent and hell bent on being #1 in the league.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin-Zephor+Jan 13 2005, 05:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ Jan 13 2005, 05:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've been in quite a few clans in my life in ns and I can tell you personally that scrimming 3+ hours a day will do a lot more harm than good. Most clans scrim 3-5 hours max a week unless they're reflect, terror or exigent and hell bent on being #1 in the league.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even we don't often scrim more than 5 hours a week.
i wrote a 5 paragraph reply before but decided to not post this because i know that i myself hate long replyes so i will just say 1 sentence i wanna say.
pub play=clan play. well atleast that is what i got after my long writing.There both fun and diffrent.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Jan 13 2005, 05:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Jan 13 2005, 05:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So basically you want new players to be able to compete straight away with players who have been playing for a long time? If you're new to ANY game you will be stomped by ANY player regardless of which way the game is balanced. Unless of course you're suggesting everything is nerfed for the lowest demoninator? You can't expect someone who has never played before to do anything but get stomped, he doesn't even know wth a gorge is ffs and you expect him to play well againist people who have been playing for months, maybe even years?
Lets say you have play a few 1000 public NS matches and record the win lose ratio for marines and aliens. Results <a href='http://devnull.vision-host.net/results.html' target='_blank'>here</a>. These results are taken from lunixmonster. The aliens win 75% of these matches. From the numbers it'd appears that aliens are the powerful team because they're winning more and from that you can assume that they need changes to balance them out.
However if you look at the individual matches you see that the numbers aren't representative of any sort of balance. Here is how a few matches were played:
Match 1: A new player goes commander and doesn't get any upgrades. Outcome: Aliens win
Match 2: High skilled clanner on marine team, same commander. This clanner camps outside the hive and creates a decent kill ratio; commander turret farms hives whilst he does. Outcome: Marine wins
Match 3: The high skilled clanner goes alien and fades. Wracks up a 70-3 score. Outcome: Aliens win
Match 4: No commander, gg. Outcome: Aliens win.
I could continue to make examples like this but it's not needed. Aliens won 3:1 of those matches, this trend continues as the results show. To balance this to reach parity you would need to boost the marine game. However, when you look at the details of the individual matches you see clearly that the aliens aren't overpowered. For two of the match’s one high skilled player better than anyone on the server is the only person keeping the aliens in it and in the other the commander is a new and doesn't understand what to do. Most of the 2000 other matches have similar circumstances, which when looked at individually show that aliens aren't overpowered. How do you balance a game with such a difference in individual skill level? Are you planning on nerfing the high skilled player when he goes fade but boost the HP of a newer one?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ben those results aren't valid. They were quickly made non-edited results that don't sort by playercount. In a 2 VS 2 game who do you think is going to win. Aliens, always.(if they play) If the stats could be filtered so its 6vs6 or greater they would meen something.
Exactly, ismali, figures gathered from pubs and balancing from pubs has too many variables. Sure you get 6v6 but whos to say there's a commander on the marine team or that the aliens drop a single RT? If you filtered the results i'm sure 75% of the matches would turn out to have serious fundamental flaws that prevents them from being valid data to balance a game with. This is why it can't be done. If you want to start controlling the enviroment or filtering for specifics then a) it's not a pub and b) why not go one step further and go to clan play? That's the most controlled enviroment there is.
As for people looking for a clan or just wanting to experience a scrim. Watch this space, i'll be sorting out a program of sorts to allow you to play with an established clan so you can experience what it's like and see the rewards.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
I'm curious what the reaction would be if Natural Selection went retail. Would there need to be an addition to the system requirements that reads, "For best play, join a clan"? Yeah, sounded silly to me too.
As far as I'm concerned, you ladies can go on with your whine fest trying to vie for Flayra's attention. In the end I'm sure he'll spend his time creating a game that's fun for people who want to play his game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Spooge+Jan 13 2005, 07:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spooge @ Jan 13 2005, 07:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm curious what the reaction would be if Natural Selection went retail. Would there need to be an addition to the system requirements that reads, "For best play, join a clan"? Yeah, sounded silly to me too.
As far as I'm concerned, you ladies can go on with your whine fest trying to vie for Flayra's attention. In the end I'm sure he'll spend his time creating a game that's fun for people who want to play his game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What kind of comment is that? Anyone can join a public server and goof off, walk around aimlessly trying to score kills, try to rally teammates to work against their common goal, or just not care about the team's objectives and play for themselves.. That's the reality of public play.
Natural-Selection has the potential for a high level of team work, and for some players that is just too much work for a game. People enjoy playing in clans because they skip the B.S. and play with people who know what their doing, and don't have to worry about an alien teammate hording res to go onos or fade early when you need the second hive or leve 2 and 3 upgrade chambers, or the quarter of marines that just don't listen to the commander when a recently captured hive is being taken back by the alien team.
Competitive clan games symbolize the true fundamentals of NS. It is the game that is meant to be played at it's peak and ripest moment without most of the worries that accompany pub games. Players have the chance to focus on the game rather than trying to get unruly players to cooperate to win the game.
That is not to say pub play isn't fun. It can be fun, especially if you happen to join a server with the majority of people who know what they are doing, and in even rare opportunities you might join a team that consists mostly of players using voice comm and communicate well. You may not know them well or exactly trust their abilities 100%, but the communication and understanding going on is more than enough to make the game smooth.
Natural-Selection shouldn't be dumbed down or adjusted because a portion of players just can't grasp the concept of team work, or understand that some situations require swift envolvment or else everything goes South of the border. It's like what MrBen has been saying all along: Public play contains too many variables to worry about, whereas in competitive play the focus is on gameplay mechanics directly and you don't have to question a players' ability to play the game.
Players of all walks of life, both competitive and casual, play the same game, but competitive clan play is more consistant than what is found on average pub servers.
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Veil, as it stands in beta 5, seems to be highly dependant on early frags.
If the marines get those early frags, they will dominate the map. I've seen it many times on clan matches, where the marines get 10+ kills in the first few minutes, and from then on seem unstopable. Perhaps its the open ness of it all, the spacing of the RTs, I don't know. Just seems that early frags have a large impact on that map.
Also I do understand where your coming from, on any map, a commander who can co-ordinate his team, will come out on top 90% of the time. The issue arises in public play when you drop your marines 3 JP and shotguns - what do they do, fly of randomly (even with waypoints <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) and die. Drop these to 3 of your guys in a match, and they dont even ask - they go straight for the hive, as they know instantly your intention with them. I wonder how many times a public hive needs to be taken down in less than a minute with 3 shotgun JPs before they call "over powered" on that too.
It's a logical statement... right? I mean jeez, way to dance around what i'm saying.
The main reason why pubs can't quite keep up with this teamwork is that clans tend to
a) Know all their roles, one DCs, one hive, one permgorge, one rt then lerk, two fades
b) Know where they're supposed to go, i.e. you two cover topographical, we'll cover west access
c) Know a,b <u>before</u> the game even starts
I think that's pretty much why the game's balance should be aided by the advice of clanners. I think we all missed the note that someone posted... notice how there is no 'for' in that sentence? It's because when you start trying to balance for a certain gametype you start leaving others in the dust. But hey, advice from great players is great for the balance of any game, right?
Beat you to it <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Those types of games are rare in pubs, but to most of you, thats one of the sole resions you play and continue to play NS. When you get those amazing games. Those amazing games happen prob once out of every 10 pub games you play. Maybe more maybe less.
anyone and everyone who continues to play ns, knows what im talking about, knows that feeling.
Now I want you to imigine that happening almost every game you play, it is that fast paced, fun, and everyone on you team is trying thier hardest and you know it. That is what clan play is all about. and if you Like that feeling, then you should play for a clan.
In pub play, what sometimes happens is, You trying your hardest for the team to win, and half the team is continualy jumping into a lava pit. OR you put up the hive, spending you 50 rez, it goes under attack and dies with absolutly nobody helping to defend you hive, because they were building an OC farm in double, only to have it seiged because that hive you put up would have given your team the stregth to defend double. If you Dont like that feeling, then you should play for a clan.
You will have your ups and downs as a clan, but I know you will have More UP times, than Down times if you stick with it. Being in a clan is a little tougher than pubbing it up.
While at the same time, a Big Mac is alot cheaper than a Nice T-Bone Steak grilled to perfection, but trust me, that T-Bone steak is worth it.
but dont take my word for it, come find out for youself, ive listed plenty of ways to start experiancing the higher levels of play.
Try the T-Bone Steak at least once is what were saying, and you will see the diffrance, and all it will cost you is a little time, and effort?
In the end you still can go back to your BigMac pubbing. but I garentee you, that you will make a few good friends while trying out that T-Bone Steak clan play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"When scientists do experiements they control variables, temperature, PH, contamination, they create conditions and then maintain them."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clan play is entirely analogue, with not even individual players performance being predictable, this comment has no bearing on reality. As a group, clan players are statistically insignificant from a scientific perspective.
The way things are tested in the real world is by statistical analysis of empirical data. That is how balance would be achieved in pub play. You keep tweaking until the combined win/lose ratio of all pub games on all maps for a defined period reaches a parity. Then you compare that defined timeframe against another and see if it also has parity. And so forth.
Perfect balance on ANY level is next to impossible in an assymetric game. NS has additional problems because there is a significant disparity in positive feedback depending on the quality of user input. That feedback is also laterally biased, rewarding Kharaa players more than Frontiersmen.
As an additional complication, over time the dynamic will change due to the gradual adoption of the skillset required to play the deeply unconventional Kharaa. This will result in the overall capability of the kharaa steadily increasing over time, only to then drop when a beta is released and a new influx of players are added to the statistical sample. This will affect clan play less, but it will still effect it.
So to summarise:
You can balance public play, by means of statistical analysis. Each individual game is not any indication of balance. Of course not. Neither is a single clan game. Your first two paragraphs of your statement are meaningless because they are based on logical fallacies and emotion, rather than an objective view of established statistical fact.
Or perhaps I'm wrong and confused. It's entirely possible. Ask coil or Nemesis, they're pretty good at statistical analysis. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"A cat has for legs. A dog has for legs. Therefore a dog is a cat."
That is a clear and logical statement. It's still meaningless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am sorry, but it is my belief that you do not know how to form a sound logical statement.
A correct way of saying what you just said would be:
All animals with four legs are cats.
Dogs have four legs.
Ergo: A dog is a cat.
This is sound logic, although the conclusion is incorrect since the premises it was based on was incorrect.
Your statement was the following:
A can has four legs.
Dogs have four legs.
Ergo: A cat is a dog.
This is neither sound logic nor true.
A good webpage if you want to read up on inductive or deductive logic as well as logical fallacies: <a href='http://webpages.shepherd.edu/maustin/rhetoric/deductiv.htm' target='_blank'>http://webpages.shepherd.edu/maustin/rhetoric/deductiv.htm</a>
What MrBen did was to form a hyothesis, this is the first step of creating a theory based on sound logic. A good way of arguing against that hypothesis would be to critizise it using sound logic as well as backing it up with facts. You did neither. In my opinion, MrBen used an analogy (the one with a scientifical experience) which works very well in this case. Analogies is one kind of sound logics.
Sorry for anything not perfectly clear, English is not my native language and I have only studied logics in Swedish.
P.M. Note the use of ad hominem in my last sentence, and feel the weight of it.
An analogy isn't any form of logical argument at all. An analogy is a form of simile used to illustrate a point. Your usage of English idiom, latin, and logic are all also incorrect.
There's a point beyond which no more communication can be made. It's been reached. Let's just agree to differ.
1. Adding one lmg-bullet worth of hp to skulk constitutes a way to fine tune balance.
2. One bullet more hp would not change the overall kill:death ratio of a general public player, regardless of being skulk/marine.
3. One bullet more hp would change the overall kill:death ratio of a skilled player playing competetively.
Hypothesis:
To fine tune with public play as a base would have minimal to no effect on public play balance, but would effect competetive play in making khaara stronger. To fine tune with competetive play as a base would balance competetive play, while having minimal to no effect on public play.
------
Assumptions:
1. To keep a community alive and going, there needs to be communities such as fan sites.
2. Fan sites needs news.
3. News can come from different sources, such as interviews of developers, new patches and fan fiction as well as interviews, predictions, cups or other things connected with a competetive scene.
4. In other sports/games (I elect to define NS a sport/game) such as football, icehockey or Counter Strike, news of competetive scenes dominate the fan sites, and have a large positive effect on the communities activity and size.
Hypothesis:
NS would benifit greatly from a thriving competetive scene, in the same way as the examples of games given above.
-----
Assumptions:
1. Players in the competetive part of the community have generally played the game a long time and like the game.
2. Players in the competetive part of the community will only stay if they feel the game in fun for them to play.
3. An important part of keeping the game fun for players in the competetive part of the community is keeping the game fit for competetive play.
4. The game needs to be balanced for competetive play to be fit for competetive play.
5. The players outside the competetive part of the community will either
a) move on to a game before they are skilled enough to notice problems with balance
b) after an undefined amount of time move migrate to the competetive part of the community
c) continue to play in this category for as long as players in the competetive part of the community.
6. Of the above three types of players, c) is a small minority.
7. Balancing for the competetive part of the community would satisfy
a) the competetive part of the community
b) eventually the people of 5b.
8. Balancing for the competetive part of the community will upset the people of 5c, while the people of 5a will not notice the difference.
Hypothesis:
Balancing the game for the competetive scene will in the end satisfy the largest portion of dedicated players.
Summary: the above is part of what I base my opinion regarding which group of players to balance the game for. My opinion is that the game is best balanced for the competetive part of the community, since they, over time and in a thriving community, represents the largest portion of the dedicated player base.
[Edit]Fixed some minor thing.
Dogs have four legs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cans
Don't
Have
Legs
Clanning > pubbing, end of story.
Overall, I've said it long ago... The playtesters, and IRC ops also.. yes they pose as figures of the community, need to be redone. Someone who is in charge needs to get the balls to whipe the playtest and redo it, as well as whipe the IRC ops and redo them. A VERY big change is needed in the community, and not a single person is doing a damn thing about it. I've taken my step, and opened the gates to the newest forum that is coming, dedicated to letting people know about scripts, and what they are, as oppsed to them being 'hacks' or 'cheats'... That is the biggest step I've taken to do for this community, and that step is a big one. It's something that needs to be done, obviously, seeing as the player skill gap is increasing ever-so greatly. Now it's somebody else's turn to do what needs to be done with the playtest, which is ineffective to say the least, and even our IRC ops, who are straight up ****, don't promote the game in any way, and do nothing, at all.
Time for a change mates, time for a change.
Sukit.
and whats so wrong with being in a clan? it can be a rich and vigourating experience. i had no idea what scf was when i joined it. now ive formed friendships with memebrs of my clan that i will carry with me for the rest of my life. and who says you have to join one? get 5 friends and start your own. ns always needs more clans. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not really trolling.
I've grown to support clan play a <b>lot</b> more than when I started with NS, but I still don't agree with balancing around it. Allow me to provide an example.
=====================================================
NSPlayer(126) joins 'Random server that is dead good olololo' for his first ever game of NS. He's smart, talented and will probably be a credit to the game. However, in his first <i>public</i> game, aliens get stomped into the floor. Utterly destroyed. This all comes because the aliens didn't function well as a team.
"Okay," thinks NSPlayer(126) "Let's go this again, or maybe another server."
Rounds 2 & 3 are identical. Just as aliens begin to coalese together, the Marines stomp in with Shotguns & Mines, and eat the hive alive.
"Hey guys!" he hollers, "Is this normal? I mean, I feel kind of owned. I am new tho, so it might be that."
"Nope" replies 'OLOLOLO ^_^' (Smurfing, probably) "This is fairly normal for a n00b pub."
"Oh."
NSPlayer(126) tries a few more servers, just to be sure. Maybe it was just the players there? Nope, same result, every game. NSPlayer(126), eventually defeated & frustrated, uninstalls NS and goes back to any one of the 5,000,000 FPS competing for his attention.
=====================================================
Public play is where you <b>ALL</b> came from, at some point. One balance relies on the other. It's probably not possible to make the game perfect at all levels, but to try to balance one at the expense of <b>either</b> is long-term suicide. If balance is achieved for public, there will be no competitive scene in 12 months, and the game will die a slow death. If balance is achieved for clan play, the game will stagnate, and no new players will arrive. Clans by nature haemorrhage players, so slowly the counts will drop without active recruitment. You can't have active recruitment without players to recruit from.
Unless, of course, you want another stack of de_dust'ers. You know, the ones who 3 seconds into the game haven't got to 'PWN N000Bs' cry "this game sucks." and quit?
- Shockwave
and yea, those statements about alien upgrades applied to public co...was feeling **** off because 4 lvl 3 hmg/sg couldent kill a single carapaced redemp onos on core. should have showed more tact, sorry for misleading. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
also i didnt misinterpret the interview. i was just using this as an example, because i simply could not put it so eliquently.
? Are you serious? gg variety, nice knowing ya...
Here's a serious tip for all you clanners:
The whole "clan > pub" line is incredibly pompous and is really not helping make you so-called clanners look good. I think you guys need to work on your image a bit if you want us "nub pubbers" to respect your thoughts some more. (Many a good point has been lost in a sea of arrogance in many of these arguments.) This is a case of "the few making the many look bad".
Does ALL clanners turn into pompous **** or something? Cause I really would hate to join that crowd.
What I don't understand is what makes clanners think that they have a right to come up with demands on a game that isn't even their own?
What gives clanners the right to ignore and trample suggestions and ideas of pubbers?
What is it that makes the clanners think that the NS universe revolves around them and them alone?
What in GOD'S NAME makes them think that THEIR demands would be for the BETTER of the game?
This isn't the first thread that I've read about the whole clanner vs pubber situation but each time I read one of these threads, I always see that clanners think that they are better than pubbers. Maybe they are, skillwise, but since when did skill give them the right to demand for anything?
Second of all, most players aren't clanners. Most players are people who just want to sit back and enjoy a couple of hours of NS and then go do something else. Most players don't care much about competition or "who is better than who". All they want is to have some fun.
Third of all, public servers will ALWAYS be less organised than clan servers and clan games. No balance in the world will ever improve this. It's just how it is. On rare occasions, organization may occur but this is rare.
Fourth of all, since clan games are so DIFFERENT to public games, how on earth can these self-egoistic clanners KNOW that balancing the game for clanners will automatically improve public games?
It's really disturbing that the rift between clanners and non-clanners have grown so deep in this community. And it's even more disturbing that it's the small group of clanners that brought this upon themselves. If they weren't so full of themselves, all of this wouldn't be needed.
Mind this ain't aimed at ALL clanners...only those who are the most blown up.
Lets say you have play a few 1000 public NS matches and record the win lose ratio for marines and aliens. Results <a href='http://devnull.vision-host.net/results.html' target='_blank'>here</a>. These results are taken from lunixmonster. The aliens win 75% of these matches. From the numbers it'd appears that aliens are the powerful team because they're winning more and from that you can assume that they need changes to balance them out.
However if you look at the individual matches you see that the numbers aren't representative of any sort of balance. Here is how a few matches were played:
Match 1: A new player goes commander and doesn't get any upgrades.
Outcome: Aliens win
Match 2: High skilled clanner on marine team, same commander. This clanner camps outside the hive and creates a decent kill ratio; commander turret farms hives whilst he does.
Outcome: Marine wins
Match 3: The high skilled clanner goes alien and fades. Wracks up a 70-3 score.
Outcome: Aliens win
Match 4: No commander, gg.
Outcome: Aliens win.
I could continue to make examples like this but it's not needed. Aliens won 3:1 of those matches, this trend continues as the results show. To balance this to reach parity you would need to boost the marine game. However, when you look at the details of the individual matches you see clearly that the aliens aren't overpowered. For two of the match’s one high skilled player better than anyone on the server is the only person keeping the aliens in it and in the other the commander is a new and doesn't understand what to do. Most of the 2000 other matches have similar circumstances, which when looked at individually show that aliens aren't overpowered. How do you balance a game with such a difference in individual skill level? Are you planning on nerfing the high skilled player when he goes fade but boost the HP of a newer one?
You cannot balance for public play because you cannot control any variables. Do you assume that simply because the scores are at parity that the game is balanced? One round you have a high skilled fade, the next you have someone who never faded before and the aliens don't drop a second hive. Marines 1. Aliens 1. Is that parity? How can you balance for random variables, do you make it so the walker fades are able to survive longer? Or do you instead lower fade HP because the clanner is too powerful? How about you take a test before you join the server and your HP is decided by your results.
You can draw conclusions from public play data but it's useless. It's like looking at the outcome of rolling a dice and then drawing conclusions from it that certain numbers are more popular because they turned up more. The results are totally down to chance and don't represent anything.
Instead you take the results from clan matches. Two evenly matched teams with equal skill levels. You no longer have to worry about variables like **** commanders, walker fades, no second hives, etc. With these variables controlled the results you get are more representative results on which team is really winning most of the matches. You then statistically analysis the results from the clan match and you get appropriate data to draw conclusions from and in turn balance the game.
Note: Balancing for competitive play would have NO effect on public play. Balancing for public play would DESTROY competitive play.
it is not so much what's good for clans, as what's good for game balance. which the clans will happen to be very appreciative of and in fact all players should be; newbies just won't notice cuz they won't know the difference. Of course this is assuming the balance does not come at the expense of anything good, but remember, unbalance = automatic bad and no fun; the game <i>must be</i> balanced, regardless of the implementation. Maybe some idiot likes the feeling of waddling his fat onos @ss into marine base and singlehandedly killing the entire marine team 5 times over, but let that person play with bots and cheats on their own time and in their own space instead of bothering anybody
Regardless of what you think x or y person does with his mom and dog, how do we balance the game?
obviously, we must look at the game played to its limits. that way we can find out whether or not something is overpowered. Then we can go about figuring what to do bout it
Of course, if you've never never tried clan play and you intend on bashing clan play because of these 'assumptions' I challenge you to at least try it before turning a perfectly good thread into a flamewar.
Not every NS player spends 3+ hours or more playing every single day. Think about that.
Not every NS player spends 3+ hours or more playing every single day. Think about that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been in quite a few clans in my life in ns and I can tell you personally that scrimming 3+ hours a day will do a lot more harm than good. Most clans scrim 3-5 hours max a week unless they're reflect, terror or exigent and hell bent on being #1 in the league.
Even we don't often scrim more than 5 hours a week.
pub play=clan play. well atleast that is what i got after my long writing.There both fun and diffrent.
Lets say you have play a few 1000 public NS matches and record the win lose ratio for marines and aliens. Results <a href='http://devnull.vision-host.net/results.html' target='_blank'>here</a>. These results are taken from lunixmonster. The aliens win 75% of these matches. From the numbers it'd appears that aliens are the powerful team because they're winning more and from that you can assume that they need changes to balance them out.
However if you look at the individual matches you see that the numbers aren't representative of any sort of balance. Here is how a few matches were played:
Match 1: A new player goes commander and doesn't get any upgrades.
Outcome: Aliens win
Match 2: High skilled clanner on marine team, same commander. This clanner camps outside the hive and creates a decent kill ratio; commander turret farms hives whilst he does.
Outcome: Marine wins
Match 3: The high skilled clanner goes alien and fades. Wracks up a 70-3 score.
Outcome: Aliens win
Match 4: No commander, gg.
Outcome: Aliens win.
I could continue to make examples like this but it's not needed. Aliens won 3:1 of those matches, this trend continues as the results show. To balance this to reach parity you would need to boost the marine game. However, when you look at the details of the individual matches you see clearly that the aliens aren't overpowered. For two of the match’s one high skilled player better than anyone on the server is the only person keeping the aliens in it and in the other the commander is a new and doesn't understand what to do. Most of the 2000 other matches have similar circumstances, which when looked at individually show that aliens aren't overpowered. How do you balance a game with such a difference in individual skill level? Are you planning on nerfing the high skilled player when he goes fade but boost the HP of a newer one?
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Ben those results aren't valid. They were quickly made non-edited results that don't sort by playercount. In a 2 VS 2 game who do you think is going to win. Aliens, always.(if they play)
If the stats could be filtered so its 6vs6 or greater they would meen something.
As for people looking for a clan or just wanting to experience a scrim. Watch this space, i'll be sorting out a program of sorts to allow you to play with an established clan so you can experience what it's like and see the rewards.
As far as I'm concerned, you ladies can go on with your whine fest trying to vie for Flayra's attention. In the end I'm sure he'll spend his time creating a game that's fun for people who want to play his game.
As far as I'm concerned, you ladies can go on with your whine fest trying to vie for Flayra's attention. In the end I'm sure he'll spend his time creating a game that's fun for people who want to play his game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What kind of comment is that? Anyone can join a public server and goof off, walk around aimlessly trying to score kills, try to rally teammates to work against their common goal, or just not care about the team's objectives and play for themselves.. That's the reality of public play.
Natural-Selection has the potential for a high level of team work, and for some players that is just too much work for a game. People enjoy playing in clans because they skip the B.S. and play with people who know what their doing, and don't have to worry about an alien teammate hording res to go onos or fade early when you need the second hive or leve 2 and 3 upgrade chambers, or the quarter of marines that just don't listen to the commander when a recently captured hive is being taken back by the alien team.
Competitive clan games symbolize the true fundamentals of NS. It is the game that is meant to be played at it's peak and ripest moment without most of the worries that accompany pub games. Players have the chance to focus on the game rather than trying to get unruly players to cooperate to win the game.
That is not to say pub play isn't fun. It can be fun, especially if you happen to join a server with the majority of people who know what they are doing, and in even rare opportunities you might join a team that consists mostly of players using voice comm and communicate well. You may not know them well or exactly trust their abilities 100%, but the communication and understanding going on is more than enough to make the game smooth.
Natural-Selection shouldn't be dumbed down or adjusted because a portion of players just can't grasp the concept of team work, or understand that some situations require swift envolvment or else everything goes South of the border. It's like what MrBen has been saying all along: Public play contains too many variables to worry about, whereas in competitive play the focus is on gameplay mechanics directly and you don't have to question a players' ability to play the game.
Players of all walks of life, both competitive and casual, play the same game, but competitive clan play is more consistant than what is found on average pub servers.