Beta Six
Grahf
Join Date: 2004-01-21 Member: 25558Members
Join Date: 2004-01-21 Member: 25558Members
Comments
And as this is about competition, I'd say we can't really talk about it until we play scrims. Don't know if there is at least two 6-constell teams around to try...
The whole map is a maze of corridors, lacking rooms larger than acidic on tanith. Except for marine main of course which is about the size of ns_veil MS in b5, but flat.
Altair has improved a bit though, still not sure about the map but I'm not opposed to a pcw or two on the map to try it out (something that isnt even thinkable in b5).
Some things that I have noticed about ns_altair:
+ I love pink (bad feedback I know, but I had to say it!)
+ The map looks great and feels athmospheric, especially the vent system with the water tunnels. A great addition, it adds alot to the feeling of the map!
+ The changes I have noticed as of yet (havent had much time to look it through, so many maps to play so little time) seems to be well thought-out. Barrels sitting everywhere might feel a bit odd, but they work.
- The outer ring (of corridors and rooms) connecting the hives and MS are often used, as they are the quickest rout to anything of importance. The inner parts of the map feels almost redundant most of the time, the execption being when building RTs in the beginning, or taking down RTs as a skulk. Look at tanith for an example of a map where each room is important in different situations. A simple well thought layout that tries to place equal importance on each part of the map is in my opinion very important. <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70657' target='_blank'>The things said in here</a> makes alot of sense, that guy can express my sentiment better than I can.
- Due to the nature of the map it is easily dominated early game by marines. Wide corridors make dodging very easy, and hiding very hard (since you can almost always strafe around a corner at a distance at which it is almost impossible to approach a marine quickly enough as an ambushing skulk).
As for actual suggestions of what to improve I cannot say, the map has been played very little even in b5. I hope it might help somewhat though...
PS. I might add that ns_eon is a good looking map even though I dont like how it plays at the moment. It's a beta though so I'm hoping it will improve before release.
There are short, efficient routes from marine start to every single node on the map. All the hives have ideal, easy to defend siege locations near them. All the nodes are in big, <i>huge</i> open rooms with no hiding spots. Ambush points between MS and likely alien nodes are almost nonexistent.
The map needs clutter and cover, conduits, trenches in the ground, and -
Well, here's a good way to think of it. Think of central access corridor on ns_tanith. It is, in my opinion, the most vital part of ns_tanith, because it provides access and control to 2 hive siege locations and 6 nodes, in varying degrees. Skulks can attack marine squads from 4 directions there - the arch at cargo, the ramp into waste, the vent into waste, and reactor room. In short, you can set up dynamic ambushes where marines have to track incoming threats from a number of different directions.
ns_altair has almost nothing like this. Most of the ambush locations are static ambushes, where everyone has to attack from the same direction or, at most, 2.
For hive siege locations - turning corners are good, ramps and stairways are bad. Corners provide cover to both teams, ramps and stairways make things hard on aliens, but not on marines.
I hope that was helpful.
Eon is a very interesting map. I have yet to play it in a competitive environment, but it looks promising. It's a large but tight map, kind of like nothing, but very bright and full of weldables, and vents.
The layout, however is, to put it lightly, not very thought throu. It's just so incredibly vast with all its myriads of rooms and hallways most of which are of no importance. Making some areas less accessible, maybe removing a node, removing a LOT of hallways leading nohwere - perhaps that would help. EDIT: It's improved now, but the hallways are too wide and the rooms to small =/
What the mapper seems to have been missing is that all great maps (feeding the flame <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) only have quite a few critical positions from which is it imperative to keep the enemy (tanith being the perfect example: cargo, chem and rr).
ns_eclipse: keyhole/sl, tri, saa
ns_veil: nano (and the corrdior outside cargo), c12, sky, the dome
ns_origin: cargo (dbl), xeno, ore, lava
(this is, of course only my perception, but it is the perception of an NSPlayer with many gamehours and much clan experience)
ns_eon is a map I have not yet played very much, but I must say the layout looks poorly thought throu, since it has <b>no</b> big, interresting lock-down rooms (the only semi-big rooms are the hives+ms).
I have however, as i mentioned, not played this map very much so I cannot swear the truth my words bear is the only truth.
But must add this: the vent emerging over the ms in ns_eon is just plain stupid.
However, the changes dont really tackle the main problems with altair, these are that:
a, the corridors for the most part are far too open, i see you've tried to alleviate this by adding some random barrels but im not sure this works...
b, as has been mentioned alot of the action in the game revolves around the outer rts and the hives making the middle of the map (usually the most interesting part) an abandoned no-mans land.
To fix this i would suggest removing a couple of areas that i beleive are totally irrelevant to the map gameplay and to try and creat some sort of focal point in the middle of the map, encouraging play to revolve around something other than the alien hive.
Here's a very bad example of what might be done <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<img src='http://server2.uploadit.org/files/anderval-poss.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
fear my mad mspaint skills
The important thing I think is to create some sort of general coherancy and keeping the map simple. An easy way to do this is to create the focus points first, hives, ms doubleres (if any), then draw the paths leading to these from MS, try to create different domains on the map with rooms with RTs and the corridors nearby, but placing these in the previously drawn paths to the focus points. That way every RT will be on the path to a hive or doubleres, which will mean that battling over one of the rts will also have the effect of defending a hive/double res, thus making that location valuable as well. Andervals example is a try to create this type of coherency.
And that will end the todays lecture by the, in reality, totally ignorant Mr Obvious. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[Edit] And a suggestion of mine... almost identical to the one posted by buggeh below, but wth...
<a href='http://server2.uploadit.org/files/tjosan-tjosugg.JPG' target='_blank'>Link is here</a>
<a href='http://server3.uploadit.org/files/Buggeh-altairlayout.JPG' target='_blank'>AltairDoubleRes</a>
Yes, I also own at Paint.
This would make the map more compact, with less useless rooms/corridors, and give everyone more incentive to use the entire map.
no further comments necessary.
To give an example of feedback:
Suggesting that Hand Grenades are impractical simply because they block armour/weapon upgrades is useful. Explaing how C++ works is patronising.
"xxx is too wide" - For what? A fade to own marines in? A marine riverdancing display? Qualify your feedback.
Saying "The room <b>Aft Smurf Ventilation Generator</b> is so wide it allows marines to easily create a cross fire and lock down a vital junction early in the game" is useful. It identifies a problem in specific terms.
Saying all good maps have X or must contain at least 3 Y is just nonsense. This is based on the exhaustive analysis of what? A handful of maps?
Activision blew off Elite because there was no market for 3D games and they knew much more about gaming at that point in time than your average joe. To presume that you can make definitive statements about map composition is the height of arrogance.
But, like I say. Some good input there too. <3
Keep it coming, but just read it through before clicking <b>Add Reply</b>. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Allow me to explain why maps like veil, eclipse and tanith are more popular than eon, ayumi and others will ever be.
Firstly, it's NOT visuals. Eon and ayumi are both incredibly good looking maps but they're simply not fun to play. One of the major problems stems from excessive use of things like lips, pipes and random sticking out structures. If you compare the archicture of the eclipse and veil, two very popular maps to the architecture of ayumi then you'll notice it's very simple.
The lips, random sticky out bits and general stuff like that whilst looking very pretty and landing you a job doesn't make for fun play. As a fade you get caught, you can't bunnyhop properly and your movement is hampered a lot. This makes the map tiring and unenjoyable to play. Compare this to veil where there's very little details apart from a few archways and pipes in the ceiling and out the way. You don't have to worry about getting snagged or caught and your movement isn't hampered. Automatically veil is a more enjoyable map to play.
The second reason is the layout. A lot of maps contain usless rooms, long corridors to nowhere and a billion RTs. Whole sections of the map aren't seen during a match, entire routes aren't travelled. There's a lot of excess map that simply gets you lost and annoyed. In veil, eclipse and tanith there are no excess things. You have the hive, MS and any double RTs. The map is then designed around linking up these areas as effectively as possible and then placing RTs in these routes.
Every route in tanith leads somewhere, every path in veil is travelled, every corner of eclipse is seen. There's none of this extra stuff to side track you. The corridors all lead somewhere and direct you to the major locations. Other maps just lead you to other corridors, other random RTs and another stuck point.
If you mean my post, it is based only on my analyse of the now functioning maps in NS, and what I feel is lacking on this map (ns_altair). The post was only meant to present from where I am coming with my suggestions, if it seemed patronizing I am sorry and thank you for telling me. I will think of it in the future.
The question is though, where is your constructive critizism? On the way? Or are you just enjoying sounding superior in a thread you add nothing to?
If anyone is patronizing it would be you.
Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest. Now lets leave this thread for actually contructive posts.
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Well, surely people can agree that maps with numerous choke points, and areas of tactical value are more desirable than those that lack these features? i don't think it's stupid to say that there are a number of critera which pretty much must be fulfilled to make a good ns map, for competative play anyway, and this is the competative forum after all.
Also grendel i think you'd agree that it might also be considered the height of arrogance to assume that people infact know nothing about improving the gameplay of maps, that the suggestions they mention are pointless becuase they dont fit with your idea of what <b>should</b> be suggested, or that the people posting think they're somehow better than others and that their ideas should be taken as anything more than friendly advice.
I'd prefer if you didn't critisise feedback that others are giving in an honest attempt to help the mapper improve the map, possibly even including useful feedback yourself.
inbuilt regen is super cool for lerks and fades, definately the best change so far in my opinion
inbuilt regen is super cool for lerks and fades, definately the best change so far in my opinion<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How long does that take to heal a skulk from like 30 health? You dont have to be exact or anything im just wondering how effective it is.
inbuilt regen is super cool for lerks and fades, definately the best change so far in my opinion<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How long does that take to heal a skulk from like 30 health? You dont have to be exact or anything im just wondering how effective it is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regen rate is the same as the upgrade regeneration, but it will heal only 1 hp/sec for a skulk.
For skulks it's not viable as a mean to heal completely, but it may help with a bullet worth of damage or so. For fades it is a bit better, I believe it will make MC-first fades a bit more viable as they with natural regen can regenerate enough to cover small injuries, the kind which quickly added up in b5 and made celerity fades much less effective.
If you mean my post, it is based only on my analyse of the now functioning maps in NS, and what I feel is lacking on this map (ns_altair). The post was only meant to present from where I am coming with my suggestions, if it seemed patronizing I am sorry and thank you for telling me. I will think of it in the future.
The question is though, where is your constructive critizism? On the way? Or are you just enjoying sounding superior in a thread you add nothing to?
If anyone is patronizing it would be you.
Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest. Now lets leave this thread for actually contructive posts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I made a post because I was reading a discussion between mappers on the general uselessness of the feedback they received and felt I'd communicate the sort of problems they have obtaining useful feedback.
If I appear patronising, it will be because
a) I am, accidentally, sometimes patronising.
&
b) This is about the 50th post I've had to make in the last 2 years explaining the difference between an opinion and qualitative feedback.
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.