<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Nov 5 2002, 12:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Nov 5 2002, 12:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Nov 5 2002, 06:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Nov 5 2002, 06:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so much for the hasty claims that "balance is fine, so shut up"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is that supposed to mean? If you don't have something nice to say, don't post anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i think he meant all the play testers are yelling at the new players that it is balanced and that it doesn't need further tweaking because when you say it's unbalanced you make the playtesters feel that their " play testing " was useless. Since their job was to find inbalances and other game hitches .
But now since Flaya feels that changes need to be done twix feels that the players are right and not the play testers
harsh yes... but anyone can be wrong... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
My opinion is that it was tweaked decently for the playtesters before... now they are tweaking for the general gamer population. (plus that overcompensation with the Fade) If they over do it with this patch, the marines will learn how to play good really quick just like the aliens have this week. I think this number juggling is interesting and am wondering how it will affect the game and what I do in it. It can't hurt the game... that's for sure. I love it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Greedo386+Nov 5 2002, 08:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Greedo386 @ Nov 5 2002, 08:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention that you have to spend an extra 25 upgrading the turret factory to even be able to place the siege turret. And that this upgrade takes 30 seconds. More than enough time for the alien team to become alerted to the marine team's presence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Try playing alien - 13 EACH TIME you evolve into gorge and you really shouldn't stay gorge for very long until late in game. And the time to evolve is painfully slow. Add to that the fact that it takes much longer to build alien structures then marine ones and the one-time per site "25 turret factory cost" is negligible.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shrike30+Nov 5 2002, 05:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shrike30 @ Nov 5 2002, 05:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This may seem like an odd question to somebody who understands, but what exactly is the point of a grenade that doesn't have a blast? It basically becomes an XCOM-like AP heavy cannon at that point, it's only real advantage being that you can lob the rounds somewhat.
Hm.
Without a blast radius, will it even be ABLE to hurt buildings?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the love of god..... The grenades still have a <b>balst radius</b> they just don't do <b>double damage versus structures</b> anymore.
I too am eargerly awaiting the patch. I have just come out of a game where it was 9 marines v 4 aliens for the WHOLE 1.5 hours of the match. They turret/siege spammed 2 hives (after they 'naded one away from us). They then proceeded to send in the chappies with HA/HMG (5 of them..... 5 FFS!) and 2 Jetpackers with grenades to finish off the last hive. I'm really sarting to hate those jetpackers, especially when they come in through the vents. They can be delt with though so i have no <i>real</i> problem with them.
I would have been happy with just the resource bug fixed but these new additions sound like they will put the fear back into being a marine too. They also seem alot more subtle than you think if you take a close look at them.
Here's the problem with jetpack. You can move at <b>insane</b> speeds if you fly against the ceiling. You give a guy an HMG or a GL and he can zip across the entire map in a minute, usually less. It's about a 10 on the ridiculous scale. Please fix this.
said this in another thread too; The marines only need one player who knows the mod and the rest can get by on regular FPS skills. The Aliens need every player to have a good knowledge of the mod (at least of skulk tactics and fade or onos tactics). (and knowledge of the map to make good use of hive sight) How many people have you seen who didn't even know the skulk had attacks beside bite? I think that's why playtesters have a much higher opinion of alien strength than other people.
Thats some great improvements to the gameplay, cos i've played quite a few matches by now, and in most of them the alien team gets owned, and i dont think that this due to ppl in alien team being crap, but just because a single marine with a hmg can take out entire hive room without too much hasle, and when u have about 4 or 5 of those guys storming in in there shiny heavy armours with the hmg's, as an alien u dont have a tiniest chance, i mean even an onos will get ripped apart in about 5 seconds. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
The other point i want to make is that making aliens too powerful is a bad idea too. The significantly smaller number of games i played, the alien team rocked. As an onos, in about 5 mins time i killed about 15 marines, destroyed a dozen of turrets, and we generally speaking won the match, we had 3 onoses (with me), 2 fades, and about 3 skulks doing kamikadze runs against there base. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
As i said the changes to the gameplay sound great, but i seriously doubt that this will be the last changes to the gameplay balance. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Me worries about changes... that marines will now complain and make excuses...
They shouldn't improve aliens I think. Just fix resource prob and make some numbers different in marines. But not changing both, bad i think. We'll see. Because people have really exagerated because aliens do win some of the matches <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Grendel+Nov 5 2002, 12:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Nov 5 2002, 12:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, don't I feel like the last 6 months of my life were wasted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Keep your head up! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The complete team did a very good job, but you can't find all bugs and balancing problems. That's murphy's law
Thrust me, i am a software-developer... if anything can go wrong, it does <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Take a look at CS or DOD... and count the releases... this is the first public release of NS. It can't be perfect. A perfect Software is useless, because there is no space left for improvements
Don't get discouraged Grendel, you guys turned out an awesome mod. Look at it this way, in the end of PT you were very familiar with alien abilities and skilled in their use. People who've just picked it up are going to be at a big disadvantage against marines whose play is much more similar to other games. I'd wager alot of people who complain about aliens being weak don't even know about xenocide, defense chambers healing offense chambers, good use of web. I was personally firm about taking sensory second, but I realize that's cause I get such a kick out of cloaking. I'm now see the value of adrenaline for taking out turrets with only 2 hives.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited November 2002
Just as a note:
This and yesterday morning I played about 20 games of NS on servers WITHOUT the resource bug.
Aliens won almost every time.
Addendum: I don't mean that aliens are overpowered, but that without the resource bug, they are plenty powerful enough already. The proposed changes that start this thread would make aliens TOO powerful, IMHO.
I agree, aliens are pretty much good enough without the resource bug. I think the list of changes for the fade is a bit excessive, because it's already very hard to kill and it kills things quite fast.
I don't think now is the time to start making gameplay mechanics changes, the playtesters had much longer to iron out the bugs in the game and the way everything meshes together. I personally had enough trouble with 2 fades last night taking out a whole base with one gorge as backup healer. I'm afraid to see how well the aliens will do now that the marines NEED a good commander and good players to play the game and win, whereas the aliens only need a couple of decent Fades and 2 hives up.
At first I was happy about it since I'm an alien player mostly, but when I give it a second thought I really have to agree with Grendel on this one. The extensive playtesting done has balanced the game extremely well, IMHO the only thing about the balance that needs to be fixed is the resource bug (or whatever it is).
yes, i agree with grendel, on a server without the bug, aliens win lots of rounds, 5 out of 6 or something close to that. The playtesters tested it and tested it, it IS balanced, changing the balance now because some players (note all players that are new to the game) claim it is unbalanced. I'll invite you to play ona server without the bug: 193.120.211.34:27015 . play on it, get used to aliens, and you'll see there's no need to make the aliens stronger. I'm sure that a month from now (maybe 2) people will be whining about overpowered aliens if you do change it.
Grendel: When we were playtesting RCx and the gold candidate, aliens were winning the majority of games. The only time the marines won were when they had a good commander, a good strategy, and good teamwork. THIS is how the game was meant to be. It's a shame we can't just hit the rewind button and go back to this release (with only the known bugs fixed). So, anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that with the aliens winning the majority of games in the current patch, then maybe this is a good thing.
Relic: Do you expect that the Fade changes will tip the balance too far back to aliens? I wasn't there, so I don't know what those candidates were like, but will a significantly better Fade be too much for the marines to handle with all those price increases and damage reductions on their side? I say resolve the resource bug before anything else and THEN worry about the rest of the gameplay mechanics.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin--Relic25+Nov 5 2002, 02:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Relic25 @ Nov 5 2002, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Grendel: When we were playtesting RCx and the gold candidate, aliens were winning the majority of games. The only time the marines won were when they had a good commander, a good strategy, and good teamwork. THIS is how the game was meant to be. It's a shame we can't just hit the rewind button and go back to this release (with only the known bugs fixed). So, anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that with the aliens winning the majority of games in the current patch, then maybe this is a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm really not quite sure what you are saying Relic.
That RCX and the gold version (sans resource bug) is balanced?
If so, then you are agreeing with me, albeit in a very convoluted fashion.
I think the fade and GL changes are great, fade always seemed a bit to easy to kill when it was suposedly the 2nd best alien.
Probably don't need ALL of the price changes to the marine economy, maybe a few though (HMG at least).
I always wished that the alien evolutions were cumulative, so if you evolve to a gorge, it now only takes 31 resourses to evolve to a fade (44-13=31) and if you evolve from a fade to a gorge you get 31 resourses back.
It would allow more versitile class changes. Many times i go in as fade to clear a small marine base, then when i want to build our own base there it takes me 13+(insert base componants here)+44 to get back to where i started.
If i'm DEvolving from fade to gorge shouldn't i get at least some of the resourses back?
<!--QuoteBegin--flippo+Nov 5 2002, 10:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (flippo @ Nov 5 2002, 10:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here's the problem with jetpack. You can move at <b>insane</b> speeds if you fly against the ceiling. You give a guy an HMG or a GL and he can zip across the entire map in a minute, usually less. It's about a 10 on the ridiculous scale. Please fix this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not possible to fix in the HL engine I believe, when your stuck at the cieling both the X and Y movents are changed to just a X movement, resulting in a *very* fast speed.
Yeah Gren, I was agreeing with you. Or commiserating, whichever you prefer. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Whoa, sounds like the Marines R getting owned... I dont mind tho, I like playing both Aliens and Marines... Well, since the Grenade launcher might be losing splash damage, why dont they just change the weapon into a laser rifle, or siege gun or something, because a grenade that doesnt do any splash damage is kinda strange... Oh well, cant complain until I play it. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
At first, I wasn't going to make any balance changes for this week's patches. I thought "people are still getting used to the aliens, they'll see the light after they play more". I did see a few games which did make a few things clear to me though: fades are powerful enough and HMGs are too powerful. Also, the game is fairly turret-centric right now, and I'd prefer turrets to delay players, and have most of the fighting occur BETWEEN players.
I don't want to overcorrect either, I have to think about it more and watch more games.
If anyone can tell me what the "resource bug" is <b>exactly</b>, it would make fixing it a lot easier. Ie, give me the steps to reproduce it, and tell me how many resources the marines should have, and then show me that they have more.
This is kinda makin the aliens have a real big advantage. I mean thats great for me im usualy always going alien but i dont want it to be unbalanced too much - fine lowering the damage etc but by downgrading the maries and upgradeing the aliens doesnt this make the same problem but the other way round? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
so much for the hasty claims that "balance is fine, so shut up"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is that supposed to mean? If you don't have something nice to say, don't post anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think he meant all the play testers are yelling at the new players that it is balanced and that it doesn't need further tweaking because when you say it's unbalanced you make the playtesters feel that their " play testing " was useless. Since their job was to find inbalances and other game hitches .
But now since Flaya feels that changes need to be done twix feels that the players are right and not the play testers
harsh yes... but anyone can be wrong... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Try playing alien - 13 EACH TIME you evolve into gorge and you really shouldn't stay gorge for very long until late in game.
And the time to evolve is painfully slow. Add to that the fact that it takes much longer to build alien structures then marine ones and the one-time per site "25 turret factory cost" is negligible.
Hm.
Without a blast radius, will it even be ABLE to hurt buildings?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the love of god..... The grenades still have a <b>balst radius</b> they just don't do <b>double damage versus structures</b> anymore.
I too am eargerly awaiting the patch. I have just come out of a game where it was 9 marines v 4 aliens for the WHOLE 1.5 hours of the match. They turret/siege spammed 2 hives (after they 'naded one away from us). They then proceeded to send in the chappies with HA/HMG (5 of them..... 5 FFS!) and 2 Jetpackers with grenades to finish off the last hive. I'm really sarting to hate those jetpackers, especially when they come in through the vents. They can be delt with though so i have no <i>real</i> problem with them.
I would have been happy with just the resource bug fixed but these new additions sound like they will put the fear back into being a marine too. They also seem alot more subtle than you think if you take a close look at them.
The other point i want to make is that making aliens too powerful is a bad idea too. The significantly smaller number of games i played, the alien team rocked. As an onos, in about 5 mins time i killed about 15 marines, destroyed a dozen of turrets, and we generally speaking won the match, we had 3 onoses (with me), 2 fades, and about 3 skulks doing kamikadze runs against there base. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
As i said the changes to the gameplay sound great, but i seriously doubt that this will be the last changes to the gameplay balance. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
They shouldn't improve aliens I think. Just fix resource prob and make some numbers different in marines. But not changing both, bad i think. We'll see. Because people have really exagerated because aliens do win some of the matches <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Keep your head up! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The complete team did a very good job, but you can't find all bugs and balancing problems. That's murphy's law
Thrust me, i am a software-developer... if anything can go wrong, it does <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Take a look at CS or DOD... and count the releases... this is the first public release of NS. It can't be perfect. A perfect Software is useless, because there is no space left for improvements
Greetings
Marco Frischkorn
Germany
This and yesterday morning I played about 20 games of NS on servers WITHOUT the resource bug.
Aliens won almost every time.
Addendum: I don't mean that aliens are overpowered, but that without the resource bug, they are plenty powerful enough already. The proposed changes that start this thread would make aliens TOO powerful, IMHO.
I don't think now is the time to start making gameplay mechanics changes, the playtesters had much longer to iron out the bugs in the game and the way everything meshes together. I personally had enough trouble with 2 fades last night taking out a whole base with one gorge as backup healer. I'm afraid to see how well the aliens will do now that the marines NEED a good commander and good players to play the game and win, whereas the aliens only need a couple of decent Fades and 2 hives up.
I'm really not quite sure what you are saying Relic.
That RCX and the gold version (sans resource bug) is balanced?
If so, then you are agreeing with me, albeit in a very convoluted fashion.
Probably don't need ALL of the price changes to the marine economy, maybe a few though (HMG at least).
I always wished that the alien evolutions were cumulative, so if you evolve to a gorge, it now only takes 31 resourses to evolve to a fade (44-13=31) and if you evolve from a fade to a gorge you get 31 resourses back.
It would allow more versitile class changes. Many times i go in as fade to clear a small marine base, then when i want to build our own base there it takes me 13+(insert base componants here)+44 to get back to where i started.
If i'm DEvolving from fade to gorge shouldn't i get at least some of the resourses back?
This is not possible to fix in the HL engine I believe, when your stuck at the cieling both the X and Y movents are changed to just a X movement, resulting in a *very* fast speed.
I don't want to overcorrect either, I have to think about it more and watch more games.
If anyone can tell me what the "resource bug" is <b>exactly</b>, it would make fixing it a lot easier. Ie, give me the steps to reproduce it, and tell me how many resources the marines should have, and then show me that they have more.