<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> marines are at disadvantage in games with less than 6 players (3 on each team) because aliens basic attack is 7.5 times more powerfull than a marines <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Just no. Marines can shoot down a corridor, something a skulk will find hard to do with its "basic" attack. Second, a marine can fire off more shots per second than a skulk can bite.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Combat is an easy alien win <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. Perhaps if the marine team all goes for the same tech route then yes, but if they're diverse enough to cover all points then they should have few problems. Shotties dice everything, moreso as the weapon ups roll in. Armour upgrades mean any skulk who rushed focus is going to be rather surprised to see the marines take his bite then pump him with shotgun. A few of these and you can expect marines to run around with resupply as well.
On many maps I've seen a situation where a guy with a GL can seriously compromise any skulk ambush, and skulks which are flushed out are again shotgun fodder.
Even the poorest marine player can invest in a Welder, which means he can weld structures for free exp and also weld his teammates. The poorest skulk either rushes crazily or goes gorge early in order to get hivehealing exp - which means he'll be a while before he gets to Web, and even then he's generally shot up as the rines enter the hive.
Once the marines get JPs its pretty much all over - no OCs to boost hive defence, so you rely primarily on Lerks and Web.
In the end, it all balances out. Just need to understand where the team has a hole and then attempt to plug it.
(Also, for the record, I despise CO - but the fact remains I still know how to play it)
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Jan 12 2005, 06:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jan 12 2005, 06:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Also, for the record, I despise CO - but the fact remains I still know how to play it)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you've played to less co <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. As a not very good alien player i find it very easy getting kills in co. At the time you get JP alien already have xeno, focus and web and that way a jp have a limited lifetime esp. in the hive room.
Hell you want a def win alien ? Just all go out for xeno and one have to make the web-gorge. And if they really come with a HA train alien can still go Onos.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Aliens have lots of flexibility. New system of spawning as skulks i blessing and curse at the same time. Curse is of course, being spawn camped. Blessing, is extreme flexibilityi n response ot hwat mariens have. If marines have the ability to rechoose HA or JP upon respawn, it'd be so much better.
I think that the problem is that single-marine player isnt as good as single-alien player. One uber-marine can take jp and pwn a lot but he will be hindered by those xeno/web gorges while rest of the team is killed. While one good fade can amass easily 3/4 marines and get their focus on them selfs and not to heading for hive. The problem is also there that marines are more likely to stay in base and camp.
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> If you go alone as marine your dead but if you stay base with rest of your team you have lost. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
from what i've noticed, a team of fully upgraded aliens are better than a team of fully upgraded rines. that is if we suppose they're all average skill. usually the one to break those 40 minuet games are usually (notice USUALLY) players that are better than everyone else on the team.
Think about it: 1 onos vs 1 Rine. (both full upgrade n' stuff) Winnah - usually onos unless the place is very open. now, lets change it a bit: 2 fades and 2 onos vs 4 rines (also upgraded n' stuff) - winnah, aliens.
So long as the marines stick together and dont rambo off to be sliced up, they should have few problems. I've seen three marines hold off all comers simply because the aliens were woefully undercoordinated, and only one alien player made any kills. While that helped him, it didn't help his team, and for all his skills and upgrades he got diced by marines who boosted up on exp from the less skilled players.
I think it's quite amazing how a group of 6+ marines just sit in one place, like that one space just outside of marine spawn leading to the ramp on co_core, and die to one skulk after the guy in the front shoots, misses, and blocks all his mates shots. That's the fricken reason why the aliens get onos and xeno so fast.
#1 Resupply People say, "Oh, resupply is useless while you still have an armory" Wrong. With resupply, you save valuable time that you would've otherwise wasted touching that armory for 30 seconds trying to get that one medpack. On top of that, you don't have to bother loading up on ammo for your GL or shotgun. (LMG is almost weightless anyway, and HMG already comes fully loaded when you spawn.) The more ammo you carry at once, the slower you move, so this aids in the marine speed game as well.
#2 Armor 1
Armor level 1 is INDISPENSABLE. It is 99% impossible to win CO without at least armor level 1.
#3 Catalysts
These are extremely fun and quite useful as well. The faster you unload your ammo, the less time you have to die before you finish shooting. Also, with these in effect, your JP has around 30% more lift(not too sure about this). You can outfly a celerity lerk with catalysts and a JP.
#4 Jetpack
Even with just a LMG, these are extremely valuable. Just take one of these on a strafing run in the hive and distract aliens while the rest of your less mobile team moves in with bigger guns. One of these coupled with a shotgun and catalysts is devastating.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think it's quite amazing how a group of 6+ marines just sit in one place, like that one space just outside of marine spawn leading to the ramp on co_core, and die to one skulk after the guy in the front shoots, misses, and blocks all his mates shots. That's the fricken reason why the aliens get onos and xeno so fast. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People are just all up in that mode where only the person who gets the kill gets the credit (CS I suspect). Many marines seem to be unable to work well in groups. They just need to learn to keep firing lanes clear, and stick together while not blocking the hell out of each other.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cj the Dj+Jan 14 2005, 12:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cj the Dj @ Jan 14 2005, 12:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Think about it: 1 onos vs 1 Rine. (both full upgrade n' stuff) Winnah - usually onos unless the place is very open. now, lets change it a bit: 2 fades and 2 onos vs 4 rines (also upgraded n' stuff) - winnah, aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it's because rines, even upgraded, have to concentrate their firepower on one bigger alien to kill it, while single oni/fade can do a lot of damage all by himself. if you have a decent team and yell "aim for the closest onos everybody!" he usually goes down in no time, but due to deathmatch nature of CO such cooperation rarely happens.
as for the topic - IMO aliens in CO are not overpowered at all. teams are often assembled of random players, and better-skilled teams tend to win. but skill is not all that matters. the psychological factor is also very important. if you pwn3d the other team in first three minutes they will likely stay near their base and hesitate to strike. it's not just about the level team gets after winning the first rush. you may be Mr. Aimbot Himself, but if you have to run around alone while the rest of your team desperately humps for their medpacks it's likely that you will become an easy snack for Kharaa.
so... i agree that CO matches are often decided after an initial rush, but i've seen tides change easily, provided the loosing team didn't jump into their trenches, even if they were less skilled.
When you think about it though thats the inherant flaw in the CO system.
a single fade/onos IS more powerful then a single marine.
If ALL of an alien team goes fade/onos...how will the equal number of marines kill them? There is an unbalanced issue there, which means inherantly the aliens WILL win if the game goes on long enough for there to be even half as many onos/fades as marines.
So what if you kill onos1 by focusing fire..wheres your ammo to kill onos2 behind him? Or onos3? while fade 1 and 2 are on you also...
Xenocide IS a VERY VERY powerful ability. All it takes is 3 levels to get..and by that time you have a HIGH chance to kill most marines you come across (and god forbid you xenobomb marine spawn. Levels ROLL in)
Theres a reason NS games are considered over most times when aliens have 3 hives...because they have access to those tier3 abilities...even skulks become deadly to any marine with those...if a skulk does it right focus+xenobomb. Hit xeno, leap, focus chomp him and BOOM. Dead marine even if he has good armor.
Honestly it would be feasable to win a CO game PURELY with nothing but lv 4 skulks. Why? Because if say a team of 6+ ALL had xeno what marine team could even TRY to get near them? If the first doesn't get you the second will.
Those are the two key things in Combat. That marines are NOT singly equal to aliens and that aliens can gain the benefits of 3 hives without actually HAVING 3 hives, or marines having the things you'd expect them to by the time aliens did (I'd think most halfway decent marine teams could manage MT, Weapons 1-2 and Armor 1-2 AT LEAST by the time aliens had 3 hive abilities, not to mention turrents to hide behind and a comm to direct.)
Whats a marine team suppose to do to counter 2-3 xenobombers jumping at them constantly? Especially when one comes about 5 seconds after the other. Weld? How often do people have welders within the first 3-4 levels unless the CC got hit HARD.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a single fade/onos IS more powerful then a single marine <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should bloody hope so considering how many slots they take up.
Second, I regularly take a welder and run around like monkey firing my sparkgun at teammates and structures. Not only does this keep them alive, it gets me exp for better upgrades. Hell you don't even need to shoot sometimes.
Xeno may take three levels, but its an exceptionally foolish marine who is not carrying around armour upgrades at three slots. If he rushes an hmg, tough nuts to him. He'll learn, or he'll get wiped. If he gets wiped, he can either say "this is a dumb thing I did" or he can go "ogm hax how dare teh kill me when i hav teh HMG!!11". Second, a skulk who has *rushed* xeno is packing very little else, and most marines can shoot him down before he even screams - that IS of course assuming they're not blind rambos. In fact if they're blind rambos it'll STILL work against the alien as he'll only ever xeno one at a time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if a skulk does it right focus+xenobomb. Hit xeno, leap, focus chomp him and BOOM. Dead marine even if he has good armor. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if a skulk player was juiced up on crack he could dodge every bullet and leapspam all around the marine till he reloads. A marine player could camp a dead end vent and kill everything coming at him. OGM SKILL EXPLOITS.
Seriously folks, if someone rushes a 3 slot offensive weapon, then it is at the expense of any defense. Grenades will rip through skulks - fire them around corners you don't like. Stick close to the guy with the welder, and then get an armour upgrade (still leaves you two slots free). Use your ears for the xeno scream, focus fire on the screamer. Standard stuff. Just because someone gets the drop on you doesn't mean its automatically a game imbalance problem or that they're being lame. Perhaps YOUR slot choices are to blame..
all right, maybe in theory aliens are stronger. but i play lots of CO on different servers and i just don't see aliens winning all the time.... as i already said the BETTER TEAM wins *or sometimes just lucky.
as for overpowered abilities consider nadespam and jp+hmg, isn't it ovehpowahd? once they get gl's and jp's no onos or fade can stop them.
the problem is, armor works only once, after the first xeno thier toast, unless everyone has welders, but when their welding the fades come in, and since they have armor instead of weapons, they can't kill the fades, and since the skulks keep xenoing they can't get any xp from the skulks since their to busy welding to prevent being killed by the xeno.
While you idea sounds good on paper in reality its not completely true. necrosis. I guesss you could say that the players then could all go heavy with welders using 5 points, to defend against 2-3 leapxeno skulks. but by that time one alien can probrably go onos. and since the marines dont have any hmgs, they become onos food, and GG the aleins win.
Basicly the only way for marines to counter xeno is to kill the aleins when they spawn via GL spam. but then we get complainers that GL spam is unfair as they xeno.
Go play combat for 2 hours a day 7 days a week for the next 4 weeks and you start to understand what most people are saying.
While I actualy perfer to have combat unbalanced towards aliens so I can practice my marine game better for actualy NS games. Which are the true heart and soul of the game.
Its not hard to do a focus/xeno combo. You can leap and bite a marine VERY easily before you explode. Its not the same as dodging every bullet and such. I can come leaping out after a see a marine go past and get a bite on him before I go boom VERY simply, I've seen it done by even NSPlayers who get told its an easy combo for kills.
Ok so they have armor 1 or armor 2 MAYBE if they feel sexy armor 3 by time skulk is Xeno. BOOM ok wheres the armor now? Even with resupply that marine is gonna DIE the next xeno. If the whole team went armor 2/welder to protect..how are they gonna kill the fades? Where are they getting the GL/JP? Or these mystical HMGs when they are too busy welding eachother and being denyed kills because the skulks are killing themselves?
The logic you used is fundamentally flawed for that reason.
An unupgraded skulk with xeno is MUCH more dangerous then you make it out to be. Its not hard to hide out of sight and listen for marines to be past, hit xeno and leap out into them before he explodes.
Grenades will rip through skulks...ya they will, but GLs also have DISGUSTING reload time wait for the GL spammer to be reloading. Jump out and boom in his face with a bite.
By your logic since GL owns skulks for those 3 slots a person should rush a GL. Hey guess what! You just beat your own argument that they should have armor by 3 slots!
By 3 slots most marines may have Weapons 1 and a Shotgun MAYBE. You can handle Weapons 1 easily enough as an unupgraded skulks. You know you can. You handle it well enough in NS games cause its a upgade you have a good chance of encountering before hive 2, or possibly before upgrade chambers have dropped (pubs.)
If they have a shotgun you just ambush more and use leap to get your xeno going before the shotgun can hit you and jump on him. Either way for these "amazing skulk killers" that you have to worry about would be 1 to 2 slots. Meaning armor 2 max, armor 1 most likely and no welder. Dead marines from 1-2 xenos. And they get NO xp for any of the xenos.
Both shotgun AND weapons 1 are things you have to handle in an NS game with weak skulks. In combat a skulk can have his hive 3 abilities at his disposal. Hmm we should consider why they are hive 3 abilities in NS right? Because by hive 3 marines SHOULD have upgrades to combat them. Resflow to have welders, possible HA dropped, GL/HMG, higher teir armor upgrades. Marines have NONE of those things in combat. maybe the welder or gl/hmg or higher teir armor. Why? Because they'd sacrifice the slots to get such quicker, but then be lacking the OTHER reason why marines can handle hive 3 stuff.
I guess by your reasoning Marines are doomed no matter what <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As levels mount it can get very much a losing game for marines.
That xeno skulk can get himself enough kills to quickly become an upgrades skulks with an extra slot saved to go gorge (web is teh win!)
Every marine without armor from a xeno means that skulks can pull in more kills and levels then marines.
Heck honestly if you had a coordinated enough team can you imagine a whole team of 5-6 skulks ALL using xeno? If they did it halfway smartly in their bombing marines would be denied ANY further levels.
Can a 7 man team of marines handle say a 7 man alien team if they all went onos at level 5 or 6?
You can say yes as an arguement but with Redept upgrade on all of them by the most part by level 5-6 most marines have a combination of lv 1-2 weapons, a shotgun, armor 1-2, resupply, mines. Unless they rushed a certain tree for like an HMG but even then they are still lacking much damage to the HMG. And 7 Oni...7 marines aint got enough AMMO to kill that. Redept will probably save most of them vs lv 1-2 guns and they will probably be able to kill 1-2 marines each run, for further upgrades.
A good marine team vs a good alien team is at an overall disadvantage. You can see some of it in some games..a fade can survive a lv 3 shotgun fairly well and if he has a bit of skill can make marine life HELL if he has focus and adrenaline. Thats just 1 that can generally harass marines very well with hit and run tactics and do heavy damage per hit. With innate regen coming itll just widen the gap some in B6...if marines had regenerating armor or something to bring their armor back alone in combat only as an upgrade or something itd be slightly more balanced.
Gecko - its a rare game where everyone is rushing xeno. Such games are easy to see coming, and even then you're talking three slots per player to be able to even INITIATE the strat.
Second, any team fool enough to all go HA/Welders/LMG deserve to lose. Combined arms wins combat. In my examples, I state nades, gls, welders, armour, weapon ups - all have to be used together.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Go play combat for 2 hours a day 7 days a week for the next 4 weeks and you start to understand what most people are saying. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly would not waste my time on it. I've already played combat quite enough and I'll avoid as much I can. However, that doesn't make my facts any different. Combined arms win, and rushing xeno means you lose out on defence or higher classes. Rushing weapons means you miss out on armour. A TEAM needs a good mix in order to win. The same can be said of true NS, however true NS has a comm who can bail you out if you can't play properly. In combat, you've only yourself to blame.
Akuma - your monoclass logic is fundamentally flawed. You choose a group of clones for one team, and then have your mental attackers utilise combined arms. Fact - clones will lose to a diverse team (all things being equal). Its been proven time and time again, and it applies just as well here. Instead of thinking of "welder lmg rines vs fades, skulks onos" try considering "hmg, gl, jps, ha, resupply vs fades skulks onos".
In pure NS teams who all weld at once get fried. No different to combat. If you do it in either game you're a fool. If you keep getting ambushed by aliens, send out a spotter. Pick ping as an upgrade. Use a bit of wit.
Finding holes in individual weapons/upgrades is childs play, they are ALL flawed in some way and that is why we have BALANCE. Shotgun - short range. GL has a long reload and small clip. HMG has huge clip and insane reload. LMG has an average across the board. Pistol has high ROF but small clip and needs precise aim. Whoop de dooper. That is why people mix them together to make up for shortfalls.
Armoured rines surround the weak guys, or "go point" to suck up an xeno damage which is EASILY welded off them by the support boys. JPs are good for scouting and terror raids. You don't use any one type of unit, you mix them all in. This is basic fundamental NS strategy, hell its fundamental military strategy. Mass monocultures die, so bring in diversity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Every marine without armor from a xeno means that skulks can pull in more kills and levels then marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say virtually every marine who cant avoid xeno but still avoids armour is a fool and deserves a solid loss.
Its great to chew on hypotheticals, but what sort of marine team is going to rush weapon upgrades if all they are seeing is xeno skulks? What marine team is going to camp long enough in order to get Onos rushed? If you're going for K:D and score, then maybe. However, the game is about killing hives and CCs, its meant to be fast paced. Its not true NS where the pace is a bit slower and involves a bit more strategy and consolidation. In NS three hive aliens are very hard to stop, as are full tech marines. Combat is the same only this happens FASTER - so alter strategy accordingly.
Your closing fade example could easily be a shotgun/hmg marine with a JP. They're hell to kill as well. You either learn to kill them or you just suffer on. Everything has its counter, which is why you need to diversify the team. If everyone is rushing the same techs then they'll lose. If they're rushing techs which aren't appropriate to the game then they'll lose. Its not a game imbalance, its called poor play.
1. players that don't catch up with the average level gain free exp 2. slay respcampers for killing players within 2 sec. from respawn (or better - 2 sec invulnerability after respawn)
i played with these plugins and nobody flamed the others for spawnkills (which are the worst part of this game) and even after winning initial rush the game was quite balanced
You talk like its easy to get these combined arms and welder support and jps and all easily while still having armor to defend against the xeno. I use Xeno as an example as its one of the things that can very much cause marines problems. You say soak up a xeno like its easy. Most xenobombers I've seen grab SoF right after to get into a group JUST before xeno goes off. Welder support aint saving that if theres another buddy coming with a xeno.
I wouldn't mind it if Xenocide couldn't be used under say..level 5-6. Then marines HAVE these combined arms more then likely, welders and such too. But far far too often to have such a combined force you'd have to forgo things like a welder to be effective. A GLer without Resupply has to hump that armory for a decent bit for enough to keep some decent cover spam going. No GL means you risk being suprised easily. Rushing a JP takes 4 levels at least and then you don't even have weapon ups or anything to kill a skulk who flies into explosion range. Xeno has a rather sick area of damage and throw.
A stellar team I saw today was doing using 2 xeno skulks to thump marines down in armor and then focus skulks to do cleanup. Was deadly effective since even if marines started to weld eachother focus chomp made them stop or lose the welder from being ambushed. Focus+leap or cloak can be a deadly combo when you got xenociders jumping in to stop marine progress.
Marines either die or drive aliens off then have to recover. Aliens can get away with no death many times while marines have very little chance of such unless the alien turns tail and runs or he kills it.
Another thing that for combat can cause problems is Redept. Yes it works randomly but it can deny kills, especially on higher lifeforms like Fade/Onos or even a very mobile Lerk.
I'm shifting to other things since you think my whole arguement is strictly xeno <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Aliens have VERY high ability to deny marines kills and levels. Whether you wanna deny it or not its true. You don't see marines able to go "Poof" and be out of a fight and saved. I've multiple times as a skulk with redept (was getting ready to go fade) got redepted 8 times in a row. That was 8 kills the marine probably would've had (since I couldn't hit jack as a skulk that night..I was leeching all my xp =p)
Even vs lv 3 weapons and hmgs I've lucked out and redeemed MANY times as all manner of alien types. Heck I've redeemed mid leap while xeno timer was counting. These were denied levels, or if I xeno exploded I denied a kill also. I gave NO xp but possibly gained some myself. Theres no downside to it beyond you use a slot instead of another upgrade..and the fact its random in its working sometimes. Late game when most higher lifeforms have it marines get into a problem where they have troubles picking up XP while aliens can gain more or keep marines contained to a decent degree..granted for match play and all coordination on marine side can break this if the game were intended STRICTLY to be fun for just highly coordinated groups there shouldn't really be pubs =p
I'm tired so maybe I'm making sense but I do give ya credit for making good arguements necrosis <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It IS easy if you're playing with people you know. Thats not just a pug/clan thing, if you keep to a smaaaall group of servers then you can get to second guess the players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Rushing a JP takes 4 levels at least and then you don't even have weapon ups or anything to kill a skulk who flies into explosion range <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should hope so, considering how hard JPs can be to kill.
Marines do so much better if they're not ramboing around like headless chickens. The first few minutes should see skulks bouncing off marine killzones. This is a lot of earlygame res and marines can use this for welders, weapon ups, resupply, etc. Meanwhile the aliens are getting NOTHING. I've seen marines hold long corridors very well, and there's usually a good chokepoint or two near the hive or the CC.
Once marines are tooled up, they can consider expansion. Aliens are CC killers, so you NEED to let them come to you. If you go into their areas, then they can ambush you at short range which only gives them the advantage.
Playing the distance game will frustrate the aliens - your biggest worry is a group rush, and even that can be countered with some focused fire and judicious upgrade choices.
A good strat, and nothing more complicated than sheer exp denial.
Redempt is a somewhat useful skill for saving your backside when you dont want to have to reevolve on death, however it means the marines are getting closer and closer to your hive - something which is suicide once marines have even average firepower. Its very much a two edged sword.
Really, the point is that everything has its counter, and a diverse team will cover these counters. Patient and accurate marine defense = better guns = faster exp = game win. Rushing won't help, and its usually the thing most players do right off the bat.
Therein lies the problem I think. The key word of SHOULD. With B6 aliens are gonna take an even greater step ahead marines with innate regen for one (hey that skulk that was almost dead isn't as bad anymore!) not to mention the shotgun being weakened somewhat and cloaking getting a bit better.
Biggest thing I've seen though that annoys me as a marine a good bit. Aliens have about 3 ways to deny xp. Marines only got 1.
Aliens can get redept (not a surefire thing but still it IS xp denial) Xeno (you die but it does deny xp since you go boom) Killing the marine (duh)
Marines can only kill the aliens to deny them xp, they don't have other options other then fighting and killing that alien. Not including running away on either side's as thats not helping you in any way.
I keep hearing whispers that alien lifeform upgrades will persist on death in combat but I don't know if its true..I might be missing it in the changelog. so I'm not gonna even comment on that other then "yes their team is dead quick rush into the hive room and..HOLY ONOS RAIN BATMAN!"
But thats just rumors and such I've heard so blah.
I'm tired from too many shifts and bad weather driving so I'll add onto this. Necro you're super for giving a good discussion though =)
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
No clan takes Combat torunys serious, because all the clans know in organized play, aliens have a huge advantage in Combat. In Pub play, it all comes down to which side is more skilled although the aliens still do have an advantage, it's just that newbies might not know how to exploit those advantages. In high level play however, everybody knows how ot exploit every advantage.
<!--QuoteBegin-Akuma+Jan 23 2005, 06:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Akuma @ Jan 23 2005, 06:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Therein lies the problem I think. The key word of SHOULD. With B6 aliens are gonna take an even greater step ahead marines with innate regen for one (hey that skulk that was almost dead isn't as bad anymore!) not to mention the shotgun being weakened somewhat and cloaking getting a bit better.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, one extra bullet will break this game in half. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Biggest thing I've seen though that annoys me as a marine a good bit. Aliens have about 3 ways to deny xp. Marines only got 1.
Aliens can get redept (not a surefire thing but still it IS xp denial) Xeno (you die but it does deny xp since you go boom) Killing the marine (duh)
Marines can only kill the aliens to deny them xp, they don't have other options other then fighting and killing that alien. Not including running away on either side's as thats not helping you in any way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Resupply anyone? It completely denies kills to any alien without focus. Jetpacks? Can't kill what you can't catch. HA? Can't kill regenerating armor. All of these are at least as effective as redemption.
Also: 1 marine with a jetpack, resupply and lvl3 shotty can take out the hive himself. No alien, no matter what level, can stand up to a team of marines like that by himself. 2 good marines with jetpacks, welders, and resupply = unstoppable, period. You'll never hit them with xeno; they'll just hear you scream and fly up high.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I keep hearing whispers that alien lifeform upgrades will persist on death in combat but I don't know if its true..I might be missing it in the changelog. so I'm not gonna even comment on that other then "yes their team is dead quick rush into the hive room and..HOLY ONOS RAIN BATMAN!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well that's what it was before this current beta....and that's why it was changed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jan 23 2005, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jan 23 2005, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Resupply anyone? It completely denies kills to any alien without focus. Jetpacks? Can't kill what you can't catch. HA? Can't kill regenerating armor. All of these are at least as effective as redemption.
Also: 1 marine with a jetpack, resupply and lvl3 shotty can take out the hive himself. No alien, no matter what level, can stand up to a team of marines like that by himself. 2 good marines with jetpacks, welders, and resupply = unstoppable, period. You'll never hit them with xeno; they'll just hear you scream and fly up high. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good points, except that a gorge that knows how to web properly can deny the jetpacks the ability to fly around, and as long as the rest of the alien team is competent, the jps are useless. If the aliens can't bite a stationary jp, well then that's when the marines still win, with the time between webs.
But I usually play CO on extended level and time servers, where the aliens obviously have an advantage, so my experience is biased.
Couple factors I'm starting to notice that are increasing the odds of marines winning in co:
- There needs to be a limit on onos. Long games = rines get smashed by 10 onos. That's 7000 hp + ~7500 armor worth of fire power for rines to deal with. When the onos get redemption, all the bullets you sent into that guy's **** are wasted since he could just come back as onos for more action without having to evolve from skulk. As you are reloading some lone skulk/fade could just run up to you and eat you alive. RETARDED!!
- Mixed arms is the best way to win. There should be like 2-3 glers and the rest needs to be either hmg or shotguns WITH jetpacks. Going heavy armor is suicide for co_ as onos could just kick your **** (meaning stomp/devour/redemp combo). Marines should get shotguns first to make easy kills and get quick levels. From there they should tech resupply, A1, A2, JP, then weapons 2/3 or hmg/gl. If you tech armor first you won't level much in the long run because of xeno shower, focus, fades, and spore; you're armor is gonna get wooped by all those things and you'll have a weak weapon to kill aliens with. Welders in co are pretty optional but I think they're a waste of points. If you look away from your screen to weld your friend for a second, some alien is gonna munch on your ****.
- Don't bunch up in the hallway. That's grounds for a skulk feast. When you cram together like scared children in the corner of some room, you'll block each others shots. Then, when the slaughter comes everyone will be yelling, "OMG SKulK HACKS." Spread out and keep a distance between you and your teammates. Watch each other's sixes.
- If you go forward, then keep going in that direction. Don't back up unless you need to reload. I've been in games where some random guy will run forward, then change his mind, back up, and then some skulk will kill him and me because 1) I can't see what's behind him if he blocks my screen 2) He probably blocked all my bullets. This is becoming increasingly common on co servers. Make up your damn mind!!
- When you gl spam, go farther in so your grenades will reach the hive (aka the spawn point for aliens) or some area around it. You'll take around 2-5%, depending on your weapon ups, off the hive, per shot, as well as some skulks with it. If you do get a gl, I recommend you have a jp FIRST to buzz around the hive, as you'll be 1) a harder target to hit 2) a skulk magnet, which translates to more kills for you 3) a diversion so your teammates can come in to pressure the hive/spawn camp. Otherwise, you should stand at a special hallway/vent and spam while your teammates, who have shotties and hmgs, protect you. (For instance on co_faceoff or co_pulse, blah can't remember, there's a room just ahead of the ladders where you can spam safely from a distance and hit the hive. The thing is, some players shoot into that room, which I think is a mistake as the skulks could just wait until the 4th nade goes off and then come out. It's a good idea to go just far enough and aim high enough to hit the hive.) Do remember to kill ANY gorge/egg you see FIRST. Those have higher priority over the hive imo since they will defer healing and a moer dangerous alien life form for a spawn cycle, long enough for some hive pwnage.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Resupply anyone? It completely denies kills to any alien without focus. Jetpacks? Can't kill what you can't catch. HA? Can't kill regenerating armor. All of these are at least as effective as redemption. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since when does resupply drop health fast enough to stop a marine from dieing to multiple bites? I've had resupply and died to 2 bites multiple times..heck I've died to 4 bites before a resupply drop so that one is not right. Resupply doesn't spam you with health itll drop it but its not exactly speedy gonzalas.
Web and I've seen fades and lerks (i've gotten quite good as a lerk doing this) eat JPs out of the sky. Celerity lerk can keep right on a JP's butt and CHOMP!
How does HA regen? You need teammates to WELD you. Which requires you to rely on them being halfway smart enough to get a welder and hug you to help ya. And no they aren't because HA nor JP takes you out of the fight without you running. Redept outright pulls you out while you're fighting. And if you reason that because you can weld its regenerating...then all armor is regenerating.
Resupply is iffy but its a bit closer but it still isn't gonna save a marine half as much as redept. If resupply saves you like redept why don't we see marines not dieing hardly at all when those redept onos come along? Cause they are being saved right?
Resupply seems to take a second (I don't know the exact amount) to drop after you are bitten once, so 2 quick bites will kill you. I believe it takes 6 seconds for each subsequent medpack to drop, but usually as you are flying around with a JP it takes longer than 6 seconds for an alien to bite you. Still, it is definitely possible to happen.
I would like to say a gorge web doesnt save the aliens if the marines are smart.
Two words will wipe away the gorge's web: Gernade Launcher.
The main reason gorge web is uber is because most peopl eget JPs and hmgs or shot guns. However people underestimate the GL. They dont get it because you cant fight many lifeforms with it and you cant be a loner. People who play co tend to leave their teamwork at the door.
As for xenociding skulks. two possible counters.
1: dont give them the xp to get it.
2: kill the guy before he has a chance to explode.
Tactic for marines are simple.
SPAWN CAMP (im sorry but you cannot win if you dont spawn camp in co. its part of that type of gaming.)
dont go giving the enemy Xp. If you get a kill (alone) and then the enemy kills you you came out worse.
I admit, 10 minute games are a bit short. maybe 15 minute games would be better for pubs. But its not impossible for marines, they lose because on Co in pubs, teamwork is non-existent.
<!--QuoteBegin-Akuma+Jan 24 2005, 12:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Akuma @ Jan 24 2005, 12:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Since when does resupply drop health fast enough to stop a marine from dieing to multiple bites? I've had resupply and died to 2 bites multiple times..heck I've died to 4 bites before a resupply drop so that one is not right. Resupply doesn't spam you with health itll drop it but its not exactly speedy gonzalas. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was operating under the assumption that the marine knew how to dodge. Just like a proper webgorge needs to know where to web, and a xenoskulk needs to know the timing (if he doesn't have adrenaline...then it gets a tad cheap...in any case he needs to <i>not</i> blow up before leaping towards the marines....)
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Jan 23 2005, 02:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Jan 23 2005, 02:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No clan takes Combat torunys serious, because all the clans know in organized play, aliens have a huge advantage in Combat. In Pub play, it all comes down to which side is more skilled although the aliens still do have an advantage, it's just that newbies might not know how to exploit those advantages. In high level play however, everybody knows how ot exploit every advantage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the bad part. Combat will be balanced as long as both teams are average players. Great, now I can go on a random pub and play a fair game. What if I like one server because of its high-skill players, intense games and advanced strategies? I play there all the time since NS on it is just like it was supposed to be: organized. When the map switches to CO, that organization persists, on BOTH Aliens and Marines. But Aliens will win. Even if the teams are perfectly balanced in terms of player skill, Aliens have the advantage.
This is the summary of my biggest, and quite probably only, annoyance with NS: <b>If Aliens work as a team, they <u>will</u> win. If Aliens don't work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines don't work as a team, they <u>will</u> lose.</b>
This is especially true in Combat, and is the main reason I play CO very little.
What is Marine teamwork? Marines moving in groups, covering each other, welding each other, etc. If this doesn't happen, Marines will be picked off one after another, and they will lose. <b>Teamwork is essential for Marines to win.</b>
What is Alien teamwork? Aliens moving in groups, healing each other, webbing/stomping Marines, umbraing each other, sporing the Marines to take away their armour. If this doesn't happen, Aliens still might win because of individual skill, especially Lerk, Fade and Skulk. <b>Teamwork is <u>not required</u> for Aliens to win.</b>
This is the reason. NS is not a team game; at least not for the Aliens.
[edit] More examples. Will a 6 Skulk rush work on Marine Start? Probably. Obs can go down in <5 seconds, arms lab can go down in <10 seconds, IP(s) in <20. Marines are either forced to relocate, or build a remote obs, or whatever.
Will a 6 Marine rush work on the hive? Probably not. Especially if all 6 Aliens (even if they are all Skulks) are present to defend it.
A heavy armour with HMG, welder, mines, grenades, full health/ammo/armour (~60 res, not including research) cannot take down a hive, or even part of it (chambers/res nodes) if the Aliens have any sort of self-preservance. A fade or something will appear and take that heavy down. 3 skulks can probably take him down; 9 bites in <2 seconds and he's down.
An Onos with Carapace, Adrenaline and Focus can easily take down the Marine's base, especially if they are nowhere close to it. Obs goes down in <5 seconds, phase gate goes next, and then Marines scramble to get back to base while Onos can take down armoury/arms lab/IPs/whatever else is there.
Comments
marines are at disadvantage in games with less than 6 players (3 on each team) because aliens basic attack is 7.5 times more powerfull than a marines
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No. Just no. Marines can shoot down a corridor, something a skulk will find hard to do with its "basic" attack. Second, a marine can fire off more shots per second than a skulk can bite.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Combat is an easy alien win
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I disagree. Perhaps if the marine team all goes for the same tech route then yes, but if they're diverse enough to cover all points then they should have few problems. Shotties dice everything, moreso as the weapon ups roll in. Armour upgrades mean any skulk who rushed focus is going to be rather surprised to see the marines take his bite then pump him with shotgun. A few of these and you can expect marines to run around with resupply as well.
On many maps I've seen a situation where a guy with a GL can seriously compromise any skulk ambush, and skulks which are flushed out are again shotgun fodder.
Even the poorest marine player can invest in a Welder, which means he can weld structures for free exp and also weld his teammates. The poorest skulk either rushes crazily or goes gorge early in order to get hivehealing exp - which means he'll be a while before he gets to Web, and even then he's generally shot up as the rines enter the hive.
Once the marines get JPs its pretty much all over - no OCs to boost hive defence, so you rely primarily on Lerks and Web.
In the end, it all balances out. Just need to understand where the team has a hole and then attempt to plug it.
(Also, for the record, I despise CO - but the fact remains I still know how to play it)
Maybe you've played to less co <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. As a not very good alien player i find it very easy getting kills in co. At the time you get JP alien already have xeno, focus and web and that way a jp have a limited lifetime esp. in the hive room.
Hell you want a def win alien ? Just all go out for xeno and one have to make the web-gorge. And if they really come with a HA train alien can still go Onos.
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> If you go alone as marine your dead but if you stay base with rest of your team you have lost. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually thats the answer to the question!!!
Think about it: 1 onos vs 1 Rine. (both full upgrade n' stuff) Winnah - usually onos unless the place is very open.
now, lets change it a bit: 2 fades and 2 onos vs 4 rines (also upgraded n' stuff) - winnah, aliens.
Yeah, teamwork hax, evidently.
#1 Resupply
People say, "Oh, resupply is useless while you still have an armory" Wrong. With resupply, you save valuable time that you would've otherwise wasted touching that armory for 30 seconds trying to get that one medpack. On top of that, you don't have to bother loading up on ammo for your GL or shotgun. (LMG is almost weightless anyway, and HMG already comes fully loaded when you spawn.) The more ammo you carry at once, the slower you move, so this aids in the marine speed game as well.
#2 Armor 1
Armor level 1 is INDISPENSABLE. It is 99% impossible to win CO without at least armor level 1.
#3 Catalysts
These are extremely fun and quite useful as well. The faster you unload your ammo, the less time you have to die before you finish shooting. Also, with these in effect, your JP has around 30% more lift(not too sure about this). You can outfly a celerity lerk with catalysts and a JP.
#4 Jetpack
Even with just a LMG, these are extremely valuable. Just take one of these on a strafing run in the hive and distract aliens while the rest of your less mobile team moves in with bigger guns. One of these coupled with a shotgun and catalysts is devastating.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think it's quite amazing how a group of 6+ marines just sit in one place, like that one space just outside of marine spawn leading to the ramp on co_core, and die to one skulk after the guy in the front shoots, misses, and blocks all his mates shots. That's the fricken reason why the aliens get onos and xeno so fast. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People are just all up in that mode where only the person who gets the kill gets the credit (CS I suspect). Many marines seem to be unable to work well in groups. They just need to learn to keep firing lanes clear, and stick together while not blocking the hell out of each other.
now, lets change it a bit: 2 fades and 2 onos vs 4 rines (also upgraded n' stuff) - winnah, aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's because rines, even upgraded, have to concentrate their firepower on one bigger alien to kill it, while single oni/fade can do a lot of damage all by himself. if you have a decent team and yell "aim for the closest onos everybody!" he usually goes down in no time, but due to deathmatch nature of CO such cooperation rarely happens.
as for the topic - IMO aliens in CO are not overpowered at all. teams are often assembled of random players, and better-skilled teams tend to win. but skill is not all that matters. the psychological factor is also very important. if you pwn3d the other team in first three minutes they will likely stay near their base and hesitate to strike. it's not just about the level team gets after winning the first rush. you may be Mr. Aimbot Himself, but if you have to run around alone while the rest of your team desperately humps for their medpacks it's likely that you will become an easy snack for Kharaa.
so... i agree that CO matches are often decided after an initial rush, but i've seen tides change easily, provided the loosing team didn't jump into their trenches, even if they were less skilled.
a single fade/onos IS more powerful then a single marine.
If ALL of an alien team goes fade/onos...how will the equal number of marines kill them? There is an unbalanced issue there, which means inherantly the aliens WILL win if the game goes on long enough for there to be even half as many onos/fades as marines.
So what if you kill onos1 by focusing fire..wheres your ammo to kill onos2 behind him? Or onos3? while fade 1 and 2 are on you also...
Xenocide IS a VERY VERY powerful ability. All it takes is 3 levels to get..and by that time you have a HIGH chance to kill most marines you come across (and god forbid you xenobomb marine spawn. Levels ROLL in)
Theres a reason NS games are considered over most times when aliens have 3 hives...because they have access to those tier3 abilities...even skulks become deadly to any marine with those...if a skulk does it right focus+xenobomb. Hit xeno, leap, focus chomp him and BOOM. Dead marine even if he has good armor.
Honestly it would be feasable to win a CO game PURELY with nothing but lv 4 skulks. Why? Because if say a team of 6+ ALL had xeno what marine team could even TRY to get near them? If the first doesn't get you the second will.
Those are the two key things in Combat. That marines are NOT singly equal to aliens and that aliens can gain the benefits of 3 hives without actually HAVING 3 hives, or marines having the things you'd expect them to by the time aliens did (I'd think most halfway decent marine teams could manage MT, Weapons 1-2 and Armor 1-2 AT LEAST by the time aliens had 3 hive abilities, not to mention turrents to hide behind and a comm to direct.)
Whats a marine team suppose to do to counter 2-3 xenobombers jumping at them constantly? Especially when one comes about 5 seconds after the other. Weld? How often do people have welders within the first 3-4 levels unless the CC got hit HARD.
a single fade/onos IS more powerful then a single marine
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I should bloody hope so considering how many slots they take up.
Second, I regularly take a welder and run around like monkey firing my sparkgun at teammates and structures. Not only does this keep them alive, it gets me exp for better upgrades. Hell you don't even need to shoot sometimes.
Xeno may take three levels, but its an exceptionally foolish marine who is not carrying around armour upgrades at three slots. If he rushes an hmg, tough nuts to him. He'll learn, or he'll get wiped. If he gets wiped, he can either say "this is a dumb thing I did" or he can go "ogm hax how dare teh kill me when i hav teh HMG!!11". Second, a skulk who has *rushed* xeno is packing very little else, and most marines can shoot him down before he even screams - that IS of course assuming they're not blind rambos. In fact if they're blind rambos it'll STILL work against the alien as he'll only ever xeno one at a time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
if a skulk does it right focus+xenobomb. Hit xeno, leap, focus chomp him and BOOM. Dead marine even if he has good armor.
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And if a skulk player was juiced up on crack he could dodge every bullet and leapspam all around the marine till he reloads. A marine player could camp a dead end vent and kill everything coming at him. OGM SKILL EXPLOITS.
Seriously folks, if someone rushes a 3 slot offensive weapon, then it is at the expense of any defense. Grenades will rip through skulks - fire them around corners you don't like. Stick close to the guy with the welder, and then get an armour upgrade (still leaves you two slots free). Use your ears for the xeno scream, focus fire on the screamer. Standard stuff. Just because someone gets the drop on you doesn't mean its automatically a game imbalance problem or that they're being lame. Perhaps YOUR slot choices are to blame..
as for overpowered abilities consider nadespam and jp+hmg, isn't it ovehpowahd? once they get gl's and jp's no onos or fade can stop them.
While you idea sounds good on paper in reality its not completely true. necrosis.
I guesss you could say that the players then could all go heavy with welders using 5 points, to defend against 2-3 leapxeno skulks. but by that time one alien can probrably go onos. and since the marines dont have any hmgs, they become onos food, and GG the aleins win.
Basicly the only way for marines to counter xeno is to kill the aleins when they spawn via GL spam. but then we get complainers that GL spam is unfair as they xeno.
Go play combat for 2 hours a day 7 days a week for the next 4 weeks and you start to understand what most people are saying.
While I actualy perfer to have combat unbalanced towards aliens so I can practice my marine game better for actualy NS games. Which are the true heart and soul of the game.
Ok so they have armor 1 or armor 2 MAYBE if they feel sexy armor 3 by time skulk is Xeno. BOOM ok wheres the armor now? Even with resupply that marine is gonna DIE the next xeno. If the whole team went armor 2/welder to protect..how are they gonna kill the fades? Where are they getting the GL/JP? Or these mystical HMGs when they are too busy welding eachother and being denyed kills because the skulks are killing themselves?
The logic you used is fundamentally flawed for that reason.
An unupgraded skulk with xeno is MUCH more dangerous then you make it out to be. Its not hard to hide out of sight and listen for marines to be past, hit xeno and leap out into them before he explodes.
Grenades will rip through skulks...ya they will, but GLs also have DISGUSTING reload time wait for the GL spammer to be reloading. Jump out and boom in his face with a bite.
By your logic since GL owns skulks for those 3 slots a person should rush a GL. Hey guess what! You just beat your own argument that they should have armor by 3 slots!
By 3 slots most marines may have Weapons 1 and a Shotgun MAYBE. You can handle Weapons 1 easily enough as an unupgraded skulks. You know you can. You handle it well enough in NS games cause its a upgade you have a good chance of encountering before hive 2, or possibly before upgrade chambers have dropped (pubs.)
If they have a shotgun you just ambush more and use leap to get your xeno going before the shotgun can hit you and jump on him. Either way for these "amazing skulk killers" that you have to worry about would be 1 to 2 slots. Meaning armor 2 max, armor 1 most likely and no welder. Dead marines from 1-2 xenos. And they get NO xp for any of the xenos.
Both shotgun AND weapons 1 are things you have to handle in an NS game with weak skulks. In combat a skulk can have his hive 3 abilities at his disposal. Hmm we should consider why they are hive 3 abilities in NS right? Because by hive 3 marines SHOULD have upgrades to combat them. Resflow to have welders, possible HA dropped, GL/HMG, higher teir armor upgrades. Marines have NONE of those things in combat. maybe the welder or gl/hmg or higher teir armor. Why? Because they'd sacrifice the slots to get such quicker, but then be lacking the OTHER reason why marines can handle hive 3 stuff.
That xeno skulk can get himself enough kills to quickly become an upgrades skulks with an extra slot saved to go gorge (web is teh win!)
Every marine without armor from a xeno means that skulks can pull in more kills and levels then marines.
Heck honestly if you had a coordinated enough team can you imagine a whole team of 5-6 skulks ALL using xeno? If they did it halfway smartly in their bombing marines would be denied ANY further levels.
Can a 7 man team of marines handle say a 7 man alien team if they all went onos at level 5 or 6?
You can say yes as an arguement but with Redept upgrade on all of them by the most part by level 5-6 most marines have a combination of lv 1-2 weapons, a shotgun, armor 1-2, resupply, mines. Unless they rushed a certain tree for like an HMG but even then they are still lacking much damage to the HMG. And 7 Oni...7 marines aint got enough AMMO to kill that. Redept will probably save most of them vs lv 1-2 guns and they will probably be able to kill 1-2 marines each run, for further upgrades.
A good marine team vs a good alien team is at an overall disadvantage. You can see some of it in some games..a fade can survive a lv 3 shotgun fairly well and if he has a bit of skill can make marine life HELL if he has focus and adrenaline. Thats just 1 that can generally harass marines very well with hit and run tactics and do heavy damage per hit. With innate regen coming itll just widen the gap some in B6...if marines had regenerating armor or something to bring their armor back alone in combat only as an upgrade or something itd be slightly more balanced.
Second, any team fool enough to all go HA/Welders/LMG deserve to lose. Combined arms wins combat. In my examples, I state nades, gls, welders, armour, weapon ups - all have to be used together.
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Go play combat for 2 hours a day 7 days a week for the next 4 weeks and you start to understand what most people are saying.
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I honestly would not waste my time on it. I've already played combat quite enough and I'll avoid as much I can. However, that doesn't make my facts any different. Combined arms win, and rushing xeno means you lose out on defence or higher classes. Rushing weapons means you miss out on armour. A TEAM needs a good mix in order to win. The same can be said of true NS, however true NS has a comm who can bail you out if you can't play properly. In combat, you've only yourself to blame.
Akuma - your monoclass logic is fundamentally flawed. You choose a group of clones for one team, and then have your mental attackers utilise combined arms. Fact - clones will lose to a diverse team (all things being equal). Its been proven time and time again, and it applies just as well here. Instead of thinking of "welder lmg rines vs fades, skulks onos" try considering "hmg, gl, jps, ha, resupply vs fades skulks onos".
In pure NS teams who all weld at once get fried. No different to combat. If you do it in either game you're a fool. If you keep getting ambushed by aliens, send out a spotter. Pick ping as an upgrade. Use a bit of wit.
Finding holes in individual weapons/upgrades is childs play, they are ALL flawed in some way and that is why we have BALANCE. Shotgun - short range. GL has a long reload and small clip. HMG has huge clip and insane reload. LMG has an average across the board. Pistol has high ROF but small clip and needs precise aim. Whoop de dooper. That is why people mix them together to make up for shortfalls.
Armoured rines surround the weak guys, or "go point" to suck up an xeno damage which is EASILY welded off them by the support boys. JPs are good for scouting and terror raids. You don't use any one type of unit, you mix them all in. This is basic fundamental NS strategy, hell its fundamental military strategy. Mass monocultures die, so bring in diversity.
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Every marine without armor from a xeno means that skulks can pull in more kills and levels then marines.
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I'd say virtually every marine who cant avoid xeno but still avoids armour is a fool and deserves a solid loss.
Its great to chew on hypotheticals, but what sort of marine team is going to rush weapon upgrades if all they are seeing is xeno skulks? What marine team is going to camp long enough in order to get Onos rushed? If you're going for K:D and score, then maybe. However, the game is about killing hives and CCs, its meant to be fast paced. Its not true NS where the pace is a bit slower and involves a bit more strategy and consolidation. In NS three hive aliens are very hard to stop, as are full tech marines. Combat is the same only this happens FASTER - so alter strategy accordingly.
Your closing fade example could easily be a shotgun/hmg marine with a JP. They're hell to kill as well. You either learn to kill them or you just suffer on. Everything has its counter, which is why you need to diversify the team. If everyone is rushing the same techs then they'll lose. If they're rushing techs which aren't appropriate to the game then they'll lose. Its not a game imbalance, its called poor play.
2. slay respcampers for killing players within 2 sec. from respawn
(or better - 2 sec invulnerability after respawn)
i played with these plugins and nobody flamed the others for spawnkills (which are the worst part of this game) and even after winning initial rush the game was quite balanced
I wouldn't mind it if Xenocide couldn't be used under say..level 5-6. Then marines HAVE these combined arms more then likely, welders and such too. But far far too often to have such a combined force you'd have to forgo things like a welder to be effective. A GLer without Resupply has to hump that armory for a decent bit for enough to keep some decent cover spam going. No GL means you risk being suprised easily. Rushing a JP takes 4 levels at least and then you don't even have weapon ups or anything to kill a skulk who flies into explosion range. Xeno has a rather sick area of damage and throw.
A stellar team I saw today was doing using 2 xeno skulks to thump marines down in armor and then focus skulks to do cleanup. Was deadly effective since even if marines started to weld eachother focus chomp made them stop or lose the welder from being ambushed. Focus+leap or cloak can be a deadly combo when you got xenociders jumping in to stop marine progress.
Marines either die or drive aliens off then have to recover. Aliens can get away with no death many times while marines have very little chance of such unless the alien turns tail and runs or he kills it.
Another thing that for combat can cause problems is Redept. Yes it works randomly but it can deny kills, especially on higher lifeforms like Fade/Onos or even a very mobile Lerk.
I'm shifting to other things since you think my whole arguement is strictly xeno <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Aliens have VERY high ability to deny marines kills and levels. Whether you wanna deny it or not its true. You don't see marines able to go "Poof" and be out of a fight and saved. I've multiple times as a skulk with redept (was getting ready to go fade) got redepted 8 times in a row. That was 8 kills the marine probably would've had (since I couldn't hit jack as a skulk that night..I was leeching all my xp =p)
Even vs lv 3 weapons and hmgs I've lucked out and redeemed MANY times as all manner of alien types. Heck I've redeemed mid leap while xeno timer was counting. These were denied levels, or if I xeno exploded I denied a kill also. I gave NO xp but possibly gained some myself. Theres no downside to it beyond you use a slot instead of another upgrade..and the fact its random in its working sometimes. Late game when most higher lifeforms have it marines get into a problem where they have troubles picking up XP while aliens can gain more or keep marines contained to a decent degree..granted for match play and all coordination on marine side can break this if the game were intended STRICTLY to be fun for just highly coordinated groups there shouldn't really be pubs =p
I'm tired so maybe I'm making sense but I do give ya credit for making good arguements necrosis <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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Rushing a JP takes 4 levels at least and then you don't even have weapon ups or anything to kill a skulk who flies into explosion range
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I should hope so, considering how hard JPs can be to kill.
Marines do so much better if they're not ramboing around like headless chickens. The first few minutes should see skulks bouncing off marine killzones. This is a lot of earlygame res and marines can use this for welders, weapon ups, resupply, etc. Meanwhile the aliens are getting NOTHING. I've seen marines hold long corridors very well, and there's usually a good chokepoint or two near the hive or the CC.
Once marines are tooled up, they can consider expansion. Aliens are CC killers, so you NEED to let them come to you. If you go into their areas, then they can ambush you at short range which only gives them the advantage.
Playing the distance game will frustrate the aliens - your biggest worry is a group rush, and even that can be countered with some focused fire and judicious upgrade choices.
A good strat, and nothing more complicated than sheer exp denial.
Redempt is a somewhat useful skill for saving your backside when you dont want to have to reevolve on death, however it means the marines are getting closer and closer to your hive - something which is suicide once marines have even average firepower. Its very much a two edged sword.
Really, the point is that everything has its counter, and a diverse team will cover these counters. Patient and accurate marine defense = better guns = faster exp = game win. Rushing won't help, and its usually the thing most players do right off the bat.
Biggest thing I've seen though that annoys me as a marine a good bit. Aliens have about 3 ways to deny xp. Marines only got 1.
Aliens can get redept (not a surefire thing but still it IS xp denial)
Xeno (you die but it does deny xp since you go boom)
Killing the marine (duh)
Marines can only kill the aliens to deny them xp, they don't have other options other then fighting and killing that alien. Not including running away on either side's as thats not helping you in any way.
I keep hearing whispers that alien lifeform upgrades will persist on death in combat but I don't know if its true..I might be missing it in the changelog. so I'm not gonna even comment on that other then "yes their team is dead quick rush into the hive room and..HOLY ONOS RAIN BATMAN!"
But thats just rumors and such I've heard so blah.
I'm tired from too many shifts and bad weather driving so I'll add onto this. Necro you're super for giving a good discussion though =)
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Yes, one extra bullet will break this game in half. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Biggest thing I've seen though that annoys me as a marine a good bit. Aliens have about 3 ways to deny xp. Marines only got 1.
Aliens can get redept (not a surefire thing but still it IS xp denial)
Xeno (you die but it does deny xp since you go boom)
Killing the marine (duh)
Marines can only kill the aliens to deny them xp, they don't have other options other then fighting and killing that alien. Not including running away on either side's as thats not helping you in any way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resupply anyone? It completely denies kills to any alien without focus.
Jetpacks? Can't kill what you can't catch.
HA? Can't kill regenerating armor.
All of these are at least as effective as redemption.
Also: 1 marine with a jetpack, resupply and lvl3 shotty can take out the hive himself. No alien, no matter what level, can stand up to a team of marines like that by himself. 2 good marines with jetpacks, welders, and resupply = unstoppable, period. You'll never hit them with xeno; they'll just hear you scream and fly up high.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I keep hearing whispers that alien lifeform upgrades will persist on death in combat but I don't know if its true..I might be missing it in the changelog. so I'm not gonna even comment on that other then "yes their team is dead quick rush into the hive room and..HOLY ONOS RAIN BATMAN!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that's what it was before this current beta....and that's why it was changed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Jetpacks? Can't kill what you can't catch.
HA? Can't kill regenerating armor.
All of these are at least as effective as redemption.
Also: 1 marine with a jetpack, resupply and lvl3 shotty can take out the hive himself. No alien, no matter what level, can stand up to a team of marines like that by himself. 2 good marines with jetpacks, welders, and resupply = unstoppable, period. You'll never hit them with xeno; they'll just hear you scream and fly up high. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good points, except that a gorge that knows how to web properly can deny the jetpacks the ability to fly around, and as long as the rest of the alien team is competent, the jps are useless. If the aliens can't bite a stationary jp, well then that's when the marines still win, with the time between webs.
But I usually play CO on extended level and time servers, where the aliens obviously have an advantage, so my experience is biased.
- There needs to be a limit on onos. Long games = rines get smashed by 10 onos. That's 7000 hp + ~7500 armor worth of fire power for rines to deal with. When the onos get redemption, all the bullets you sent into that guy's **** are wasted since he could just come back as onos for more action without having to evolve from skulk. As you are reloading some lone skulk/fade could just run up to you and eat you alive. RETARDED!!
- Mixed arms is the best way to win. There should be like 2-3 glers and the rest needs to be either hmg or shotguns WITH jetpacks. Going heavy armor is suicide for co_ as onos could just kick your **** (meaning stomp/devour/redemp combo).
Marines should get shotguns first to make easy kills and get quick levels. From there they should tech resupply, A1, A2, JP, then weapons 2/3 or hmg/gl. If you tech armor first you won't level much in the long run because of xeno shower, focus, fades, and spore; you're armor is gonna get wooped by all those things and you'll have a weak weapon to kill aliens with. Welders in co are pretty optional but I think they're a waste of points. If you look away from your screen to weld your friend for a second, some alien is gonna munch on your ****.
- Don't bunch up in the hallway. That's grounds for a skulk feast. When you cram together like scared children in the corner of some room, you'll block each others shots. Then, when the slaughter comes everyone will be yelling, "OMG SKulK HACKS." Spread out and keep a distance between you and your teammates. Watch each other's sixes.
- If you go forward, then keep going in that direction. Don't back up unless you need to reload. I've been in games where some random guy will run forward, then change his mind, back up, and then some skulk will kill him and me because 1) I can't see what's behind him if he blocks my screen 2) He probably blocked all my bullets. This is becoming increasingly common on co servers. Make up your damn mind!!
- When you gl spam, go farther in so your grenades will reach the hive (aka the spawn point for aliens) or some area around it. You'll take around 2-5%, depending on your weapon ups, off the hive, per shot, as well as some skulks with it. If you do get a gl, I recommend you have a jp FIRST to buzz around the hive, as you'll be 1) a harder target to hit 2) a skulk magnet, which translates to more kills for you 3) a diversion so your teammates can come in to pressure the hive/spawn camp. Otherwise, you should stand at a special hallway/vent and spam while your teammates, who have shotties and hmgs, protect you. (For instance on co_faceoff or co_pulse, blah can't remember, there's a room just ahead of the ladders where you can spam safely from a distance and hit the hive. The thing is, some players shoot into that room, which I think is a mistake as the skulks could just wait until the 4th nade goes off and then come out. It's a good idea to go just far enough and aim high enough to hit the hive.) Do remember to kill ANY gorge/egg you see FIRST. Those have higher priority over the hive imo since they will defer healing and a moer dangerous alien life form for a spawn cycle, long enough for some hive pwnage.
Jetpacks? Can't kill what you can't catch.
HA? Can't kill regenerating armor.
All of these are at least as effective as redemption.
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Since when does resupply drop health fast enough to stop a marine from dieing to multiple bites? I've had resupply and died to 2 bites multiple times..heck I've died to 4 bites before a resupply drop so that one is not right. Resupply doesn't spam you with health itll drop it but its not exactly speedy gonzalas.
Web and I've seen fades and lerks (i've gotten quite good as a lerk doing this) eat JPs out of the sky. Celerity lerk can keep right on a JP's butt and CHOMP!
How does HA regen? You need teammates to WELD you. Which requires you to rely on them being halfway smart enough to get a welder and hug you to help ya. And no they aren't because HA nor JP takes you out of the fight without you running. Redept outright pulls you out while you're fighting. And if you reason that because you can weld its regenerating...then all armor is regenerating.
Resupply is iffy but its a bit closer but it still isn't gonna save a marine half as much as redept. If resupply saves you like redept why don't we see marines not dieing hardly at all when those redept onos come along? Cause they are being saved right?
Two words will wipe away the gorge's web: Gernade Launcher.
The main reason gorge web is uber is because most peopl eget JPs and hmgs or shot guns. However people underestimate the GL. They dont get it because you cant fight many lifeforms with it and you cant be a loner. People who play co tend to leave their teamwork at the door.
As for xenociding skulks. two possible counters.
1: dont give them the xp to get it.
2: kill the guy before he has a chance to explode.
Tactic for marines are simple.
SPAWN CAMP (im sorry but you cannot win if you dont spawn camp in co. its part of that type of gaming.)
dont go giving the enemy Xp. If you get a kill (alone) and then the enemy kills you
you came out worse.
I admit, 10 minute games are a bit short. maybe 15 minute games would be better for pubs. But its not impossible for marines, they lose because on Co in pubs, teamwork is non-existent.
I was operating under the assumption that the marine knew how to dodge. Just like a proper webgorge needs to know where to web, and a xenoskulk needs to know the timing (if he doesn't have adrenaline...then it gets a tad cheap...in any case he needs to <i>not</i> blow up before leaping towards the marines....)
This is the bad part. Combat will be balanced as long as both teams are average players. Great, now I can go on a random pub and play a fair game.
What if I like one server because of its high-skill players, intense games and advanced strategies? I play there all the time since NS on it is just like it was supposed to be: organized. When the map switches to CO, that organization persists, on BOTH Aliens and Marines.
But Aliens will win. Even if the teams are perfectly balanced in terms of player skill, Aliens have the advantage.
This is the summary of my biggest, and quite probably only, annoyance with NS:
<b>If Aliens work as a team, they <u>will</u> win. If Aliens don't work as a team, they <u>might</u> win.
If Marines work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines don't work as a team, they <u>will</u> lose.</b>
This is especially true in Combat, and is the main reason I play CO very little.
What is Marine teamwork? Marines moving in groups, covering each other, welding each other, etc. If this doesn't happen, Marines will be picked off one after another, and they will lose. <b>Teamwork is essential for Marines to win.</b>
What is Alien teamwork? Aliens moving in groups, healing each other, webbing/stomping Marines, umbraing each other, sporing the Marines to take away their armour. If this doesn't happen, Aliens still might win because of individual skill, especially Lerk, Fade and Skulk. <b>Teamwork is <u>not required</u> for Aliens to win.</b>
This is the reason. NS is not a team game; at least not for the Aliens.
[edit]
More examples. Will a 6 Skulk rush work on Marine Start? Probably. Obs can go down in <5 seconds, arms lab can go down in <10 seconds, IP(s) in <20. Marines are either forced to relocate, or build a remote obs, or whatever.
Will a 6 Marine rush work on the hive? Probably not. Especially if all 6 Aliens (even if they are all Skulks) are present to defend it.
A heavy armour with HMG, welder, mines, grenades, full health/ammo/armour (~60 res, not including research) cannot take down a hive, or even part of it (chambers/res nodes) if the Aliens have any sort of self-preservance. A fade or something will appear and take that heavy down. 3 skulks can probably take him down; 9 bites in <2 seconds and he's down.
An Onos with Carapace, Adrenaline and Focus can easily take down the Marine's base, especially if they are nowhere close to it. Obs goes down in <5 seconds, phase gate goes next, and then Marines scramble to get back to base while Onos can take down armoury/arms lab/IPs/whatever else is there.
1 fully-equipped Marine loses.
1 fully-upgraded Alien wins.