<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Nov 13 2004, 12:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Nov 13 2004, 12:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Lofung+Nov 13 2004, 06:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lofung @ Nov 13 2004, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> sg rush gonna be the next trend huh? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Way ahead of you... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMJ shotgun r teh n3rf3d!!1!!11! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously though, B6 is going to be great. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I find it very disappointing that the mods, etc, consider a discussion and voicing of opinions as "freaking out". maybe I didn't read everything, but most of the posts are of the "wth, why? I don't like this, blah blah".. type. they're not all particularly insightful, but I haven't seen any flaming or "freaking out" up to this point.
so what they're saying is we're meant to not voice our opinions at all or else we're "freaking out" and won't get any news. this change just comes out of left-field. as far as balance issues go, it just didn't seem high on the list. most people can probably think of half a dozen other changes that need to be made before something like this.
those using the "you rarely kill higher lifeforms" argument are really arguing against the change. if siege kills ARE so rare and useless, why remove them? I think aliens NEED to have a psychological fear of going into the hive area and standing near chambers, etc, when marines successfully deploy a siege position.
that is probably more the balance issue than the actual kills. some panic and quickly fly/run away, or refuse to find shelter in the hive. now you can have a bunch of gorges adren healing things while higher lifeforms maim the marine siege position.
it just seems ridiculous to me, and an odd thing to even consider for inclusion.
but apparently I'm just "freaking out" since I'm finding legitimate reasons that this may be a bad idea. well excuse me for "freaking out", I just think the community's opinion should be heard and valued. =P
OK, first, 'the mods' have not made any comments in here. Moderators are members of the community management staff and do a sterling job keeping this forum clean, they are no devs, developers, who spend their free time knocking their head against the various limitations they face, one of them being myself. The mods would have no influence on this in either way. Second, I can see neither a mod nor a dev describe those opposed as "freaking out". Zun describes a certain way of voicing that dissent as 'moaning', but that's in a different category entirely. I'm sure you'll be able to find different quotes that prove how 'we' disrespect you, but if you want to have your points taken seriously, I'd suggest you rely on them instead of playing victim.
If the aliens had a choice of entering a besieged hive, your argument would hold water. As it stands, they spawn in there. Little choice in that matter. Also, it's a <i>siege</i> cannon. Siege weaponry is defined as weaponry used to destroy heavy encampments, i.e., structures.
"People ask me why more news release of unfinished/unconfirmed items don't happen.. I can use this thread as a perfect example of people getting a small piece of information and <b>freaking out.. </b>"
I see he's a dev, that's fine. I used the wrong term, or a vague term, I'm not here for a battle of technicalities, or any battle at all, really. simply trying to voice my opinion on the concept.
and yes, aliens can enter besieged hives. for example, let's say the marines are sieging fusion from cargo on tanith... a fade pops in from central access and deals a few points of damage. now instead of retreating (out of fear of the sieged hive chamber) to, say, the relatively-unsafe location of acidic, he can flee into the hive, and receive healing, etc, from remaining structures/players, with no fear whatsoever of even "bugged" damage being received from the siege cannons.
I understand there were workarounds, and, IMO, the idea of making aliens do a specific thing before they're safe from sieges makes much more sense than simply removing the damage altogether.
and finally, siege weaponry was designed to destroy heavy encampments, yes... and in doing so, it may very well have killed a bunch of nearby people as well.
say you're hitting a castle wall with a trebuchet and that's your intended target, if there are archers or other people on the wall being targetted, they will likely die or get seriously injured.
Anyway, people spawning into the hive have <i>no</i> choice of entering it or not. This is the group of players I'm getting at - being killed indirectly in <i>two</i> regards is just not fun. Removing an already largely theoretical risk for Fade players does not really seem to stand up against this.
Well, it's the same basic concept of having a few marines "spawn camp" while the rest take down the hive.
those who complain about "spawn camping" in NS just don't seem to understand the game. what I'm getting at is... if marines are able to get into the hive or to deploy a siege position against it, even spawning skulks should expect to be in trouble.
but really, if this was the major deciding factor, you could easily make it so aliens didn't spawn into a sieged hive, though that, too.. would no-doubt be met with ill-remarks. =P
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Nov 13 2004, 06:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Nov 13 2004, 06:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why was player damage removed? 'Cuz being spawnkilled is bad enough when it's done by a human being, not a shockwave. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, Nem really hates it in particular when it's me.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Nov 13 2004, 09:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Nov 13 2004, 09:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not sure what all the concerns are... If you were by the siege encampment as it was, you took 0 damage anyway (unless the siege encampment was in the hive).. Since you were not near a structure. I'm not sure what all the moaning is about.. All that happened is the need to have to stand on a structure to avoid taking damage is removed.
Good players did this anyway (as Forlorn mentioned), this just evens out the playing field for everyone else.. Please don't say standing on a DC is a "skill"....
There was a work-around for this already, it's just not everyone knew.. But if there was a conscious effort to educate the public (at least 30% as big as the "whole" scripting thing) no-one would even notice this change..
The siege does 0 more/less damage than it did, so there's no change there, it just simplified how the damage was delivered.
So I would love to see why people are complaining....
And I'd like to add... People ask me why more news release of unfinished/unconfirmed items don't happen.. I can use this thread as a perfect example of people getting a small piece of information and freaking out.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, this is actually very simple.
1 gorge per seige can heal the hive enough to keep it alive.
2 gorges with lv. 2 adren or higher can heal the hive from 3 seiges.
3 Sieges are optimal amount of sieges to use.
Most seiges happen right as the second hive is about to go up, if it is a close game. As soon as the second hive goes up if the aliens have at least 2 nodes they will be able to throw up MC's.
In today's NS, if people wanna gorge and heal the hive to stay alive from seiges, currently they must do this:
Sieges will become laughable to counter now. How are you suppose to kill those gorges? Jetpacks? GLs? (if you have GLs.... why go with seiges?)
<!--QuoteBegin-Rennex+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In regards to upping the structure damage because gorges will be able to heal it now, well thats two or three less players defending the hive room from the bad guys.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because generally you only get the gorges healing the hive scenerio if the hive actually goes up, so then the team would consider it worth it to heal the hive from seiging marines. And if 2 hives are up, 2 gorges with adren or next to a movement chamber healing the hive, 2 fades, 1 lerk + umbra, 1 skulk who goes around killing nodes - 2 fades in a hive room with umbra can definately defend it. Especially if they don't have to worry about a stray siege blast that would kill him.
The only way I can see a well defended second hive being taken down is with HA. Otherwise 2 hive fades + umbra will tear the marines apart.
Furthermore, even "good" players get killed by sieges. Many times a fade is retreating back to the hive and gets nailed by a seige blast, or a lerk, or a random skulk, or whatever. This happens on both pubs and on clanplay.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->his just evens out the playing field for everyone else.. Please don't say standing on a DC is a "skill"....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You couldn't stand on a DC before, the siege would kill you. Furthermore it's never right to nerf the game for any reason, it just makes it less fun.
Right now, how much does it take to put up some seiges?
- You want more than LMGs, on a 6v6 at least some shotties and welders, at a minimum that is 40 res. - Tfac, another 10 res, upgrading it is another 15 (65 res total) - 3 seiges, 15 per siege, (105 res) - Medspam nesssesary to surrive lerk spores (at least 20 res with 4+ marines, 125 res)
125 res and you can't even kill a gorge who sits on the hive healing it? This is a joke, right?
Anyone watch my skill video? The reason you barely see any skulks is because they were either hitting their base, healing the hive as a gorge, or hitting their nodes. A few fades can EASILY keep back a marine team at a second hive if they do not have HA.
On top of that, once the hive hits 100% you can have one gorge go back to skulk and help out with the offensive again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I'd like to add... People ask me why more news release of unfinished/unconfirmed items don't happen.. I can use this thread as a perfect example of people getting a small piece of information and freaking out..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be cool if people could trust that the game would make progress...
Will 3.0 beta 6 be added to the list? You decide 2005 on bad playtesters!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Diablo fx+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablo fx)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe i didn't get your point forlorn, but don't you miss 2.01 and beta 4a ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because 2.01 and beta4a and beta 5 were steps in the right direction.
<!--QuoteBegin-NemesisZero+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NemesisZero)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway, people spawning into the hive have no choice of entering it or not. This is the group of players I'm getting at - being killed indirectly in two regards is just not fun. Removing an already largely theoretical risk for Fade players does not really seem to stand up against this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You only get spawn camped by seiges if there's a random OC in the middle of the room that gets blasted while some dude spawns.
Not only is that incredibly rare, (I haven't been spawncamped by a seige in a few months now..) but it's also a minor inconvience if a skulk dies.
I agree with Forlorn for once. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Though a lot of these scenarios seem "theoretical", it's simply impossible to judge the "most common" scenario that would determine whether a specific change should be implemented or not.
That's the trouble with these games.
But anyway, even Forlorn pointed out a similar scenario to mine, one of a Fade fleeing to the hive and meeting his doom via siege blasts. Only in my scenario the Fade was a bit smarter and a bit more brazen and fled to a nearby location rather than the Hive (where he was left unprotected and healing much more slowly via metabolize).
This may seem like a relatively small change to some, but Forlorn has shown that a truly well-organized alien team could survive atleast for a longer period of time (or possibly indefinitely) than with siege damage in place.
Understand how it looks to the community, this is an obvious feature that people would simply EXPECT to have (if you were a newbie and saw the violent shockwave, you'd probably assume it would kill you), yet what we're getting from devs, etc, is that "it was broken so we removed it"... this is just not something that comes across as a viable solution to long-time players.
Again, I think the psychological effect it has on alien teams is more where the problem lies. The fact that siege blasts ARE bugged even added to this, as it left higher lifeform players fearing a bugged blast that would critically damage or even kill their precious 50-75 res lifeform.
It may seem like an over-reaction, but I simply think the idea has not been examined in full, and obviously the dev team thinks so, too... hence why we have playtesters.
So go playtesters, and find out if this is a balance issue or not! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-MaDMaXX+Nov 13 2004, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MaDMaXX @ Nov 13 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This was a change thats been in for a while, its not something that has appeared an issue in playtesting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You just shot the last remains of my confidence in the playtests to pieces.
If something this obvious wasn't apparent, something I could tell you just from my experience; then wow...
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 02:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You couldn't stand on a DC before, the siege would kill you. Furthermore it's never right to nerf the game for any reason, it just makes it less fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And getting killed by a bugged siege blast while trying to heal at the only place you could find is fun? While you may not have been spawncamped at a hive in months, other people have been, and in many hives it happens whether or not there are chambers or nodes nearby. I can't even count the number of times I've spawned in right next to the hive and been turned into meat paste before I could get out of the (also buggy) range of the siege blast. Not being randomly killed makes the game MORE fun, not less. You've got your definitions of fun and challenging mixed up a bit.
Also, despite the fact that you claim the PTs and devs never do anything right, I don't see my regen overflowing into my armor every tick in beta 5. Remember how much you whined that it was the death of NS, and the playtesters were terrible, and you were sick of not being listened to? Well, they changed it, and you're back to complaining about new changes and saying they never did anything for you.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gadzuko+Nov 13 2004, 02:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Nov 13 2004, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 02:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You couldn't stand on a DC before, the siege would kill you. Furthermore it's never right to nerf the game for any reason, it just makes it less fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And getting killed by a bugged siege blast while trying to heal at the only place you could find is fun? While you may not have been spawncamped at a hive in months, other people have been, and in many hives it happens whether or not there are chambers or nodes nearby. I can't even count the number of times I've spawned in right next to the hive and been turned into meat paste before I could get out of the (also buggy) range of the siege blast. Not being randomly killed makes the game MORE fun, not less. You've got your definitions of fun and challenging mixed up a bit.
Also, despite the fact that you claim the PTs and devs never do anything right, I don't see my regen overflowing into my armor every tick in beta 5. Remember how much you whined that it was the death of NS, and the playtesters were terrible, and you were sick of not being listened to? Well, they changed it, and you're back to complaining about new changes and saying they never did anything for you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I challenge you to name one hive that you spawn next to and can be spawnkilled by a siege.
Furthermore, seige blasts REALLY aren't that buggy. They hit within an area around the structure. That is all. Logical thing to do? Stay away from the stucture, the farther the better.
Oh, and just because you don't think it will be fun doesn't mean other players will think it to be not fun either.
I'm sure marines have a blast when they see a fade get zapped by a siege blast; hey the fade may be irked off by the entire marine team will be cheering, laughing, and having a grand old time.
And hive regen. I actually found out that when zunni put overflowing hive regen in the annoucements, it was already removed from the game for a few days before he posted it. Zunni missed that change apparently.
But if anything, the entire hive regen taught me how incredibly bad some of the PTs were, when they arguing against me that hive regen was good dispite seeing some amazing things (1 hive onos living through 3 HMG clips at a hive, fade in umbra + regen surriving 6 shotgunners empting their shells into him, etc.)
Gadzuko, let's not forget... removing something simply because you didn't make it work right is not neccesarily a solution.
they claim it's not been an issue, I think in the pubbing community it will be.
Edit: once again the issue of spawn killing comes up. this is simply how this game is... if marines spend the res and effort to deploy a siege position, expect to be spawnkilled until they successfully eliminate the hive. while I have seen massive skulk rushes take out siege positions before, you act as if your one skulk surviving the siege blast would have made all the difference.
the issue of "fun" isn't even of concern in this regard... I don't think it's "fun" when fades penetrate the marine base and spawn camp the IPs, but I also realize they earned their right to do so and in an effort to be successful in their endeavor they simply have to... it's part of tactics, part of the game.. get used to it.
but with how this logic works... lerk spores should be useless in marine start, because a whole bunch of people don't like taking damage or dying when they're sitting in base.
people don't want others to "spawn camp" and kill them when if they didn't get spawn camped, they would run out of the base and try to kill the people who would otherwise be spawn camping!
if you don't like spawn camping then don't kill the marines who get into the hive or target it with sieges, it's only fair.
I agree with the change to sieges, I really do. Getting killed by siege blasts is not fun. But like many have stated, there needs to be some counter-measures to keep balance intact. I cant comment on if these are already there or not, I can only observe that they're needed. Now if this makes me sound like a whiney flaming forum-goer, then... you really should've gone to spec savers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I challenge you to name one hive that you spawn next to and can be spawnkilled by a siege.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns_origin: I've had this happen on all three hives. ns_hera: Data Core Delta ns_nancy: Mother ns_agora: Cargo Storage ns_caged: Again, all three hives.
In a game of tactics like NS, you have to allow spawn camping/killing. not the abusive type, but the tactical type.
so let's say a bunch of soldiers are being dumped off in vietnam via helicopter.. =P
they hop out, and the helicopter zooms off, and they immediately come under fire from mortars... OH NOEZ, they're being spawn camped@!$
the VC has to back off so they get a chance to fight and blah blah blah, obviously this is silly and makes no sense... the same applies to NS, because it's not a twitch game, but a game of strategy/tactics.
people who can't accept that need to go play counter-strike, etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-typicalskeleton+Nov 13 2004, 02:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (typicalskeleton @ Nov 13 2004, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they hop out, and the helicopter zooms off, and they immediately come under fire from mortars... OH NOEZ, they're being spawn camped@!$ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All's fair in love or war. NS != a war. NS == a game. A game == should be fun. Being spawncamped != fun for the people being spawncamped.
Dragon Mech, I shouldn't need to explain to you how flawed those comments are.
NS is a combat simulation, it simulates a fictional war between humans and aliens. it's a mini-war simulator that focuses primarily on the tactics of small-scale operations.
it's a tactical game whether you like it or not. and part of those tactics include methods to eliminating alien hives (the overall goal of the game is elimination, after all), and one of the primary means to doing this is killing the aliens -- whether they're spawning or not.
in short, <b>get over it</b>, with "it" being spawn camping. if you don't like it, play another game, I don't believe it's going anywhere.
EDIT: The people using the argument of "fun" are confused. I don't think it's particularly "fun" that I have to wait 20 minutes before I can evolve into an Onos. THEY'D BETTER CHANGE THE GAME FOR ME.
As Forlorn pointed out, what you think is/isn't fun isn't neccesarily what everyone else thinks.
I don't think it's fun I can't have a grenade launcher right when I spawn... I don't think it's fun marines have to wait to spawn...
it's simply how the game is designed. losing may not be fun, but it's part of the game, and you have to be prepared to lose. you can't just whine about everything and expect it to change. =P
<!--QuoteBegin-typicalskeleton+Nov 13 2004, 02:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (typicalskeleton @ Nov 13 2004, 02:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dragon Mech, I shouldn't need to explain to you how flawed those comments are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please do. I see nothing wrong with them. NS is a game, played by most for fun. Wars usually have a much more serious goal in mind - territoy conquest, political gain, etc. Last time I checked, traveling away from home and risking getting killed wasn't fun.
Okay Dragon Mech, seems you think "fun" is the most important aspect of a game, and not balance/game objectives/fair game design/realism/competition/what have you...
is it fun to be hiding in a vent as a gorge trying to bilebomb a marine outpost, only to have a GL come and destroy you? No, to most, I don't believe it is... what do you suggest, Dragon Mech? Since NS is meant to be pure "fun", perhaps we should replace all the weapons and maps with butterflies and rainbows, and the game can focus on who can bake more cakes in a short period of time -- but not out of competition, just in a fun-based effort to feed all of us delicious little cakes over in rainbow land. =P
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 03:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 03:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MaDMaXX+Nov 13 2004, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MaDMaXX @ Nov 13 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This was a change thats been in for a while, its not something that has appeared an issue in playtesting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You just shot the last remains of my confidence in the playtests to pieces.
If something this obvious wasn't apparent, something I could tell you just from my experience; then wow... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Has it even passed through your mind that you could possibly be wrong? Why do you instantly assume that all the PTs are incompetent as soon as you see one who disagrees with you? Since you haven't made a claim of "insider" status yet, I assume you haven't played this build. Why is it that you continue to insist on trying to have a direct impact on the private testing? When Beta 6 is released to the <i>public beta</i>, then you will be able to form a valid opinion and can share it with the forums like the rest of us. Until then, all you're doing with your doomsday predictions is irritating the devs and making them less inclined to share information with us in the first place.
<!--QuoteBegin-typicalskeleton+Nov 13 2004, 02:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (typicalskeleton @ Nov 13 2004, 02:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay Dragon Mech, seems you think "fun" is the most important aspect of a game, and not balance/game objectives/fair game design/realism/competition/what have you... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> umm... if it isn't fun then I know I won't play it no matter how balanced / fair / innovative / realistic / competitive it is.
Sure, all of those things have an EFFECT on how fun a game is / can be, but in the end if anyone that sees NS as what it is (a video game) and does not enjoy playing it the why should they play it. There's plenty of other games that are fun to choose from, so why play one that isn't.
NS is for the most part, moderately fun. It is one of the reasons that it has as big a community as it does. Any changes made to the game should be (and likely are) in an effort to make the game MORE fun than it currenty is. These include addressing imbalances, but they also include getting rid of annoyances that simply get in the way of having fun with the game.
EDIT: and just to pre-empt any statements dealing with any person leaving because the game isn't fun, I just have to say that INCREASING the community size has been one of the most plainly stated and blatantly obvious goals of the devs. As such, if you're against this kind of policy (ie. making a game more fun in order to attract more people) then you are the one who should leave as you are simply a stumbling block to the devs' goals and will inevitably get more and more disappointed by these changes that I believe the large majority of people will find make the game more fun..
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Nov 13 2004, 03:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Nov 13 2004, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 03:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 03:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MaDMaXX+Nov 13 2004, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MaDMaXX @ Nov 13 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This was a change thats been in for a while, its not something that has appeared an issue in playtesting. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You just shot the last remains of my confidence in the playtests to pieces.
If something this obvious wasn't apparent, something I could tell you just from my experience; then wow... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Has it even passed through your mind that you could possibly be wrong? Why do you instantly assume that all the PTs are incompetent as soon as you see one who disagrees with you? Since you haven't made a claim of "insider" status yet, I assume you haven't played this build. Why is it that you continue to insist on trying to have a direct impact on the private testing? When Beta 6 is released to the <i>public beta</i>, then you will be able to form a valid opinion and can share it with the forums like the rest of us. Until then, all you're doing with your doomsday predictions is irritating the devs and making them less inclined to share information with us in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. I could be wrong, but why hasn't anyone pointed a counter to my argument yet?
2. It's not disagreeing with me that bothers me, it's when people actively disagree with the game's logic.
3. I insist on trying to have a impact on this game because I play it.
A question for you:
1. Why don't you try responded to my arguments instead of using attacks?
forlorn <span style='color:white'>Be nice. I shouldn't have to tell you this.</span>
If the number of people went gorge to do as you said, there'd be no one defending the hive, the rines would walk in regardless. Your argument just doesn't hold water, i don't want to hear anymore about it.
By the way, you realise there are a number of clan players on the pt team that you've just offended with that comment, not to mention the pt's that are currently just shocked at your comment in utter disbelief of your lack of knowledge on the pt'ing part with this change.
Why don't you just try it yourself when beta6 comes out?
And whats more, what would you suggest we do about leaving it in? it doesn't work, it was removed.
<!--QuoteBegin-typicalskeleton+Nov 13 2004, 03:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (typicalskeleton @ Nov 13 2004, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay Dragon Mech, seems you think "fun" is the most important aspect of a game, and not balance/game objectives/fair game design/realism/competition/what have you...
is it fun to be hiding in a vent as a gorge trying to bilebomb a marine outpost, only to have a GL come and destroy you? No, to most, I don't believe it is... what do you suggest, Dragon Mech? Since NS is meant to be pure "fun", perhaps we should replace all the weapons and maps with butterflies and rainbows, and the game can focus on who can bake more cakes in a short period of time -- but not out of competition, just in a fun-based effort to feed all of us delicious little cakes over in rainbow land. =P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference between a gorge being blown apart by a GL and a skulk being spawnkilled by a siege is that there is no personal skill involved. There is no chance. When the gorge is in the vent, first the comm has to drop a GL. A marine has to pick it up who knows what he's doing, he has to drop a nade or two into the vent, and the gorge explodes. The gorge has the ability to avoid this: Pick a vent where he can see the GL coming, pick a vent where the grenade flies past him and down the vent harmlessly, etc. When the skulk spawns, he has no options. He has no chance. He spawns, and an automated weapon firing through a wall from a room he cannot reach in time blows him apart before he can get out of range (and yes, the range does vary from shot to shot).
Also, if you don't play games to have fun I hope you get paid for it. I personally enjoy relaxing in front of my computer after a day of work, and I don't enjoy being killed by things I can't control.
Gadzuko's post makes perfect sense, not to mention that fact that you can be no where near the sieged structure when you get killed, sieges shouldn't be the end of the defense.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gadzuko+Nov 13 2004, 03:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Nov 13 2004, 03:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-typicalskeleton+Nov 13 2004, 03:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (typicalskeleton @ Nov 13 2004, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay Dragon Mech, seems you think "fun" is the most important aspect of a game, and not balance/game objectives/fair game design/realism/competition/what have you...
is it fun to be hiding in a vent as a gorge trying to bilebomb a marine outpost, only to have a GL come and destroy you? No, to most, I don't believe it is... what do you suggest, Dragon Mech? Since NS is meant to be pure "fun", perhaps we should replace all the weapons and maps with butterflies and rainbows, and the game can focus on who can bake more cakes in a short period of time -- but not out of competition, just in a fun-based effort to feed all of us delicious little cakes over in rainbow land. =P <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference between a gorge being blown apart by a GL and a skulk being spawnkilled by a siege is that there is no personal skill involved. There is no chance. When the gorge is in the vent, first the comm has to drop a GL. A marine has to pick it up who knows what he's doing, he has to drop a nade or two into the vent, and the gorge explodes. The gorge has the ability to avoid this: Pick a vent where he can see the GL coming, pick a vent where the grenade flies past him and down the vent harmlessly, etc. When the skulk spawns, he has no options. He has no chance. He spawns, and an automated weapon firing through a wall from a room he cannot reach in time blows him apart before he can get out of range (and yes, the range does vary from shot to shot).
Also, if you don't play games to have fun I hope you get paid for it. I personally enjoy relaxing in front of my computer after a day of work, and I don't enjoy being killed by things I can't control. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> just to correct this before people start flaming away, the grenade example is trying to point out a bug in that a gren exploding in a vent does inordinate amounts of damage to anything inside the vent regardless of proximity. Though, I personally have never felt bad about getting killed like this in most instances anyways because I generally find that most vents are short enough to imagine the blast of the grenade being propagated through the vent enough so to still kill me. An easy fix to this however is to make shorter lengths of vents, or not use vents at all (ie. build actual small corridors that are not considered 'out of bounds')... in the end it is a map issue and not really a gameplay issue.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Nov 12 2004, 09:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Nov 12 2004, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Siege damage to players was stupid. Isn't it enough to tear apart all the chambers in the room without making the area a deathtrap to aliens at the same time? I don't see why aliens should ever be afraid of their own defenses. Not to mention the buggy and unreliable nature of siege's blast radius which only made things worse. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> damn straight. I've been bitching about this in games for ages! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Gonna?
Way ahead of you... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMJ shotgun r teh n3rf3d!!1!!11! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously though, B6 is going to be great. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
so what they're saying is we're meant to not voice our opinions at all or else we're "freaking out" and won't get any news. this change just comes out of left-field. as far as balance issues go, it just didn't seem high on the list. most people can probably think of half a dozen other changes that need to be made before something like this.
those using the "you rarely kill higher lifeforms" argument are really arguing against the change. if siege kills ARE so rare and useless, why remove them? I think aliens NEED to have a psychological fear of going into the hive area and standing near chambers, etc, when marines successfully deploy a siege position.
that is probably more the balance issue than the actual kills. some panic and quickly fly/run away, or refuse to find shelter in the hive. now you can have a bunch of gorges adren healing things while higher lifeforms maim the marine siege position.
it just seems ridiculous to me, and an odd thing to even consider for inclusion.
but apparently I'm just "freaking out" since I'm finding legitimate reasons that this may be a bad idea. well excuse me for "freaking out", I just think the community's opinion should be heard and valued. =P
Second, I can see neither a mod nor a dev describe those opposed as "freaking out". Zun describes a certain way of voicing that dissent as 'moaning', but that's in a different category entirely. I'm sure you'll be able to find different quotes that prove how 'we' disrespect you, but if you want to have your points taken seriously, I'd suggest you rely on them instead of playing victim.
If the aliens had a choice of entering a besieged hive, your argument would hold water. As it stands, they spawn in there. Little choice in that matter. Also, it's a <i>siege</i> cannon. Siege weaponry is defined as weaponry used to destroy heavy encampments, i.e., structures.
"People ask me why more news release of unfinished/unconfirmed items don't happen.. I can use this thread as a perfect example of people getting a small piece of information and <b>freaking out.. </b>"
I see he's a dev, that's fine. I used the wrong term, or a vague term, I'm not here for a battle of technicalities, or any battle at all, really. simply trying to voice my opinion on the concept.
and yes, aliens can enter besieged hives. for example, let's say the marines are sieging fusion from cargo on tanith... a fade pops in from central access and deals a few points of damage. now instead of retreating (out of fear of the sieged hive chamber) to, say, the relatively-unsafe location of acidic, he can flee into the hive, and receive healing, etc, from remaining structures/players, with no fear whatsoever of even "bugged" damage being received from the siege cannons.
I understand there were workarounds, and, IMO, the idea of making aliens do a specific thing before they're safe from sieges makes much more sense than simply removing the damage altogether.
and finally, siege weaponry was designed to destroy heavy encampments, yes... and in doing so, it may very well have killed a bunch of nearby people as well.
say you're hitting a castle wall with a trebuchet and that's your intended target, if there are archers or other people on the wall being targetted, they will likely die or get seriously injured.
Anyway, people spawning into the hive have <i>no</i> choice of entering it or not. This is the group of players I'm getting at - being killed indirectly in <i>two</i> regards is just not fun. Removing an already largely theoretical risk for Fade players does not really seem to stand up against this.
those who complain about "spawn camping" in NS just don't seem to understand the game. what I'm getting at is... if marines are able to get into the hive or to deploy a siege position against it, even spawning skulks should expect to be in trouble.
but really, if this was the major deciding factor, you could easily make it so aliens didn't spawn into a sieged hive, though that, too.. would no-doubt be met with ill-remarks. =P
Yeah, Nem really hates it in particular when it's me.
- Shockwave, cheering!
If you were by the siege encampment as it was, you took 0 damage anyway (unless the siege encampment was in the hive).. Since you were not near a structure. I'm not sure what all the moaning is about.. All that happened is the need to have to stand on a structure to avoid taking damage is removed.
Good players did this anyway (as Forlorn mentioned), this just evens out the playing field for everyone else.. Please don't say standing on a DC is a "skill"....
There was a work-around for this already, it's just not everyone knew.. But if there was a conscious effort to educate the public (at least 30% as big as the "whole" scripting thing) no-one would even notice this change..
The siege does 0 more/less damage than it did, so there's no change there, it just simplified how the damage was delivered.
So I would love to see why people are complaining....
And I'd like to add... People ask me why more news release of unfinished/unconfirmed items don't happen.. I can use this thread as a perfect example of people getting a small piece of information and freaking out.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, this is actually very simple.
1 gorge per seige can heal the hive enough to keep it alive.
2 gorges with lv. 2 adren or higher can heal the hive from 3 seiges.
3 Sieges are optimal amount of sieges to use.
Most seiges happen right as the second hive is about to go up, if it is a close game. As soon as the second hive goes up if the aliens have at least 2 nodes they will be able to throw up MC's.
In today's NS, if people wanna gorge and heal the hive to stay alive from seiges, currently they must do this:
<img src='http://img48.exs.cx/img48/605/ns_nothing0000.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Notice that gorge is vulerable to any marine who runs into the hive and shoots him.
In your new system, gorges will now be able to do this:
<img src='http://img48.exs.cx/img48/7539/ns_nothing0001.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Sieges will become laughable to counter now. How are you suppose to kill those gorges? Jetpacks? GLs? (if you have GLs.... why go with seiges?)
<!--QuoteBegin-Rennex+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In regards to upping the structure damage because gorges will be able to heal it now, well thats two or three less players defending the hive room from the bad guys.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because generally you only get the gorges healing the hive scenerio if the hive actually goes up, so then the team would consider it worth it to heal the hive from seiging marines.
And if 2 hives are up, 2 gorges with adren or next to a movement chamber healing the hive, 2 fades, 1 lerk + umbra, 1 skulk who goes around killing nodes - 2 fades in a hive room with umbra can definately defend it. Especially if they don't have to worry about a stray siege blast that would kill him.
The only way I can see a well defended second hive being taken down is with HA. Otherwise 2 hive fades + umbra will tear the marines apart.
Furthermore, even "good" players get killed by sieges. Many times a fade is retreating back to the hive and gets nailed by a seige blast, or a lerk, or a random skulk, or whatever. This happens on both pubs and on clanplay.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->his just evens out the playing field for everyone else.. Please don't say standing on a DC is a "skill"....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You couldn't stand on a DC before, the siege would kill you. Furthermore it's never right to nerf the game for any reason, it just makes it less fun.
Right now, how much does it take to put up some seiges?
- You want more than LMGs, on a 6v6 at least some shotties and welders, at a minimum that is 40 res.
- Tfac, another 10 res, upgrading it is another 15 (65 res total)
- 3 seiges, 15 per siege, (105 res)
- Medspam nesssesary to surrive lerk spores (at least 20 res with 4+ marines, 125 res)
125 res and you can't even kill a gorge who sits on the hive healing it? This is a joke, right?
Anyone watch my skill video? The reason you barely see any skulks is because they were either hitting their base, healing the hive as a gorge, or hitting their nodes.
A few fades can EASILY keep back a marine team at a second hive if they do not have HA.
On top of that, once the hive hits 100% you can have one gorge go back to skulk and help out with the offensive again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I'd like to add... People ask me why more news release of unfinished/unconfirmed items don't happen.. I can use this thread as a perfect example of people getting a small piece of information and freaking out..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be cool if people could trust that the game would make progress...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1.0, 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, 2.00, 2.1 betas, 3.0 builds, 3.0 beta 1, 3.0 beta 2, 3.0 beta 3, 3.0 beta 4
Will 3.0 beta 6 be added to the list? You decide 2005 on bad playtesters!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Diablo fx+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablo fx)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe i didn't get your point forlorn, but don't you miss 2.01 and beta 4a ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because 2.01 and beta4a and beta 5 were steps in the right direction.
<!--QuoteBegin-NemesisZero+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NemesisZero)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway, people spawning into the hive have no choice of entering it or not. This is the group of players I'm getting at - being killed indirectly in two regards is just not fun. Removing an already largely theoretical risk for Fade players does not really seem to stand up against this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You only get spawn camped by seiges if there's a random OC in the middle of the room that gets blasted while some dude spawns.
Not only is that incredibly rare, (I haven't been spawncamped by a seige in a few months now..) but it's also a minor inconvience if a skulk dies.
Though a lot of these scenarios seem "theoretical", it's simply impossible to judge the "most common" scenario that would determine whether a specific change should be implemented or not.
That's the trouble with these games.
But anyway, even Forlorn pointed out a similar scenario to mine, one of a Fade fleeing to the hive and meeting his doom via siege blasts. Only in my scenario the Fade was a bit smarter and a bit more brazen and fled to a nearby location rather than the Hive (where he was left unprotected and healing much more slowly via metabolize).
This may seem like a relatively small change to some, but Forlorn has shown that a truly well-organized alien team could survive atleast for a longer period of time (or possibly indefinitely) than with siege damage in place.
Understand how it looks to the community, this is an obvious feature that people would simply EXPECT to have (if you were a newbie and saw the violent shockwave, you'd probably assume it would kill you), yet what we're getting from devs, etc, is that "it was broken so we removed it"... this is just not something that comes across as a viable solution to long-time players.
Again, I think the psychological effect it has on alien teams is more where the problem lies. The fact that siege blasts ARE bugged even added to this, as it left higher lifeform players fearing a bugged blast that would critically damage or even kill their precious 50-75 res lifeform.
It may seem like an over-reaction, but I simply think the idea has not been examined in full, and obviously the dev team thinks so, too... hence why we have playtesters.
So go playtesters, and find out if this is a balance issue or not! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You just shot the last remains of my confidence in the playtests to pieces.
If something this obvious wasn't apparent, something I could tell you just from my experience; then wow...
And getting killed by a bugged siege blast while trying to heal at the only place you could find is fun? While you may not have been spawncamped at a hive in months, other people have been, and in many hives it happens whether or not there are chambers or nodes nearby. I can't even count the number of times I've spawned in right next to the hive and been turned into meat paste before I could get out of the (also buggy) range of the siege blast. Not being randomly killed makes the game MORE fun, not less. You've got your definitions of fun and challenging mixed up a bit.
Also, despite the fact that you claim the PTs and devs never do anything right, I don't see my regen overflowing into my armor every tick in beta 5. Remember how much you whined that it was the death of NS, and the playtesters were terrible, and you were sick of not being listened to? Well, they changed it, and you're back to complaining about new changes and saying they never did anything for you.
And getting killed by a bugged siege blast while trying to heal at the only place you could find is fun? While you may not have been spawncamped at a hive in months, other people have been, and in many hives it happens whether or not there are chambers or nodes nearby. I can't even count the number of times I've spawned in right next to the hive and been turned into meat paste before I could get out of the (also buggy) range of the siege blast. Not being randomly killed makes the game MORE fun, not less. You've got your definitions of fun and challenging mixed up a bit.
Also, despite the fact that you claim the PTs and devs never do anything right, I don't see my regen overflowing into my armor every tick in beta 5. Remember how much you whined that it was the death of NS, and the playtesters were terrible, and you were sick of not being listened to? Well, they changed it, and you're back to complaining about new changes and saying they never did anything for you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I challenge you to name one hive that you spawn next to and can be spawnkilled by a siege.
Furthermore, seige blasts REALLY aren't that buggy. They hit within an area around the structure. That is all. Logical thing to do? Stay away from the stucture, the farther the better.
Oh, and just because you don't think it will be fun doesn't mean other players will think it to be not fun either.
I'm sure marines have a blast when they see a fade get zapped by a siege blast; hey the fade may be irked off by the entire marine team will be cheering, laughing, and having a grand old time.
And hive regen. I actually found out that when zunni put overflowing hive regen in the annoucements, it was already removed from the game for a few days before he posted it. Zunni missed that change apparently.
But if anything, the entire hive regen taught me how incredibly bad some of the PTs were, when they arguing against me that hive regen was good dispite seeing some amazing things (1 hive onos living through 3 HMG clips at a hive, fade in umbra + regen surriving 6 shotgunners empting their shells into him, etc.)
they claim it's not been an issue, I think in the pubbing community it will be.
Edit: once again the issue of spawn killing comes up. this is simply how this game is... if marines spend the res and effort to deploy a siege position, expect to be spawnkilled until they successfully eliminate the hive. while I have seen massive skulk rushes take out siege positions before, you act as if your one skulk surviving the siege blast would have made all the difference.
the issue of "fun" isn't even of concern in this regard... I don't think it's "fun" when fades penetrate the marine base and spawn camp the IPs, but I also realize they earned their right to do so and in an effort to be successful in their endeavor they simply have to... it's part of tactics, part of the game.. get used to it.
but with how this logic works... lerk spores should be useless in marine start, because a whole bunch of people don't like taking damage or dying when they're sitting in base.
people don't want others to "spawn camp" and kill them when if they didn't get spawn camped, they would run out of the base and try to kill the people who would otherwise be spawn camping!
if you don't like spawn camping then don't kill the marines who get into the hive or target it with sieges, it's only fair.
ns_origin: I've had this happen on all three hives.
ns_hera: Data Core Delta
ns_nancy: Mother
ns_agora: Cargo Storage
ns_caged: Again, all three hives.
In a game of tactics like NS, you have to allow spawn camping/killing. not the abusive type, but the tactical type.
so let's say a bunch of soldiers are being dumped off in vietnam via helicopter.. =P
they hop out, and the helicopter zooms off, and they immediately come under fire from mortars... OH NOEZ, they're being spawn camped@!$
the VC has to back off so they get a chance to fight and blah blah blah, obviously this is silly and makes no sense... the same applies to NS, because it's not a twitch game, but a game of strategy/tactics.
people who can't accept that need to go play counter-strike, etc.
All's fair in love or war. NS != a war. NS == a game. A game == should be fun. Being spawncamped != fun for the people being spawncamped.
NS is a combat simulation, it simulates a fictional war between humans and aliens. it's a mini-war simulator that focuses primarily on the tactics of small-scale operations.
it's a tactical game whether you like it or not. and part of those tactics include methods to eliminating alien hives (the overall goal of the game is elimination, after all), and one of the primary means to doing this is killing the aliens -- whether they're spawning or not.
in short, <b>get over it</b>, with "it" being spawn camping. if you don't like it, play another game, I don't believe it's going anywhere.
EDIT: The people using the argument of "fun" are confused. I don't think it's particularly "fun" that I have to wait 20 minutes before I can evolve into an Onos. THEY'D BETTER CHANGE THE GAME FOR ME.
As Forlorn pointed out, what you think is/isn't fun isn't neccesarily what everyone else thinks.
I don't think it's fun I can't have a grenade launcher right when I spawn... I don't think it's fun marines have to wait to spawn...
it's simply how the game is designed. losing may not be fun, but it's part of the game, and you have to be prepared to lose. you can't just whine about everything and expect it to change. =P
Please do. I see nothing wrong with them. NS is a game, played by most for fun. Wars usually have a much more serious goal in mind - territoy conquest, political gain, etc. Last time I checked, traveling away from home and risking getting killed wasn't fun.
is it fun to be hiding in a vent as a gorge trying to bilebomb a marine outpost, only to have a GL come and destroy you? No, to most, I don't believe it is... what do you suggest, Dragon Mech? Since NS is meant to be pure "fun", perhaps we should replace all the weapons and maps with butterflies and rainbows, and the game can focus on who can bake more cakes in a short period of time -- but not out of competition, just in a fun-based effort to feed all of us delicious little cakes over in rainbow land. =P
You just shot the last remains of my confidence in the playtests to pieces.
If something this obvious wasn't apparent, something I could tell you just from my experience; then wow... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Has it even passed through your mind that you could possibly be wrong? Why do you instantly assume that all the PTs are incompetent as soon as you see one who disagrees with you? Since you haven't made a claim of "insider" status yet, I assume you haven't played this build. Why is it that you continue to insist on trying to have a direct impact on the private testing? When Beta 6 is released to the <i>public beta</i>, then you will be able to form a valid opinion and can share it with the forums like the rest of us. Until then, all you're doing with your doomsday predictions is irritating the devs and making them less inclined to share information with us in the first place.
umm... if it isn't fun then I know I won't play it no matter how balanced / fair / innovative / realistic / competitive it is.
Sure, all of those things have an EFFECT on how fun a game is / can be, but in the end if anyone that sees NS as what it is (a video game) and does not enjoy playing it the why should they play it. There's plenty of other games that are fun to choose from, so why play one that isn't.
NS is for the most part, moderately fun. It is one of the reasons that it has as big a community as it does. Any changes made to the game should be (and likely are) in an effort to make the game MORE fun than it currenty is. These include addressing imbalances, but they also include getting rid of annoyances that simply get in the way of having fun with the game.
EDIT: and just to pre-empt any statements dealing with any person leaving because the game isn't fun, I just have to say that INCREASING the community size has been one of the most plainly stated and blatantly obvious goals of the devs. As such, if you're against this kind of policy (ie. making a game more fun in order to attract more people) then you are the one who should leave as you are simply a stumbling block to the devs' goals and will inevitably get more and more disappointed by these changes that I believe the large majority of people will find make the game more fun..
You just shot the last remains of my confidence in the playtests to pieces.
If something this obvious wasn't apparent, something I could tell you just from my experience; then wow... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Has it even passed through your mind that you could possibly be wrong? Why do you instantly assume that all the PTs are incompetent as soon as you see one who disagrees with you? Since you haven't made a claim of "insider" status yet, I assume you haven't played this build. Why is it that you continue to insist on trying to have a direct impact on the private testing? When Beta 6 is released to the <i>public beta</i>, then you will be able to form a valid opinion and can share it with the forums like the rest of us. Until then, all you're doing with your doomsday predictions is irritating the devs and making them less inclined to share information with us in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. I could be wrong, but why hasn't anyone pointed a counter to my argument yet?
2. It's not disagreeing with me that bothers me, it's when people actively disagree with the game's logic.
3. I insist on trying to have a impact on this game because I play it.
A question for you:
1. Why don't you try responded to my arguments instead of using attacks?
If the number of people went gorge to do as you said, there'd be no one defending the hive, the rines would walk in regardless. Your argument just doesn't hold water, i don't want to hear anymore about it.
By the way, you realise there are a number of clan players on the pt team that you've just offended with that comment, not to mention the pt's that are currently just shocked at your comment in utter disbelief of your lack of knowledge on the pt'ing part with this change.
Why don't you just try it yourself when beta6 comes out?
And whats more, what would you suggest we do about leaving it in? it doesn't work, it was removed.
is it fun to be hiding in a vent as a gorge trying to bilebomb a marine outpost, only to have a GL come and destroy you? No, to most, I don't believe it is... what do you suggest, Dragon Mech? Since NS is meant to be pure "fun", perhaps we should replace all the weapons and maps with butterflies and rainbows, and the game can focus on who can bake more cakes in a short period of time -- but not out of competition, just in a fun-based effort to feed all of us delicious little cakes over in rainbow land. =P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference between a gorge being blown apart by a GL and a skulk being spawnkilled by a siege is that there is no personal skill involved. There is no chance. When the gorge is in the vent, first the comm has to drop a GL. A marine has to pick it up who knows what he's doing, he has to drop a nade or two into the vent, and the gorge explodes. The gorge has the ability to avoid this: Pick a vent where he can see the GL coming, pick a vent where the grenade flies past him and down the vent harmlessly, etc. When the skulk spawns, he has no options. He has no chance. He spawns, and an automated weapon firing through a wall from a room he cannot reach in time blows him apart before he can get out of range (and yes, the range does vary from shot to shot).
Also, if you don't play games to have fun I hope you get paid for it. I personally enjoy relaxing in front of my computer after a day of work, and I don't enjoy being killed by things I can't control.
is it fun to be hiding in a vent as a gorge trying to bilebomb a marine outpost, only to have a GL come and destroy you? No, to most, I don't believe it is... what do you suggest, Dragon Mech? Since NS is meant to be pure "fun", perhaps we should replace all the weapons and maps with butterflies and rainbows, and the game can focus on who can bake more cakes in a short period of time -- but not out of competition, just in a fun-based effort to feed all of us delicious little cakes over in rainbow land. =P <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference between a gorge being blown apart by a GL and a skulk being spawnkilled by a siege is that there is no personal skill involved. There is no chance. When the gorge is in the vent, first the comm has to drop a GL. A marine has to pick it up who knows what he's doing, he has to drop a nade or two into the vent, and the gorge explodes. The gorge has the ability to avoid this: Pick a vent where he can see the GL coming, pick a vent where the grenade flies past him and down the vent harmlessly, etc. When the skulk spawns, he has no options. He has no chance. He spawns, and an automated weapon firing through a wall from a room he cannot reach in time blows him apart before he can get out of range (and yes, the range does vary from shot to shot).
Also, if you don't play games to have fun I hope you get paid for it. I personally enjoy relaxing in front of my computer after a day of work, and I don't enjoy being killed by things I can't control. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
just to correct this before people start flaming away, the grenade example is trying to point out a bug in that a gren exploding in a vent does inordinate amounts of damage to anything inside the vent regardless of proximity. Though, I personally have never felt bad about getting killed like this in most instances anyways because I generally find that most vents are short enough to imagine the blast of the grenade being propagated through the vent enough so to still kill me. An easy fix to this however is to make shorter lengths of vents, or not use vents at all (ie. build actual small corridors that are not considered 'out of bounds')... in the end it is a map issue and not really a gameplay issue.
damn straight. I've been bitching about this in games for ages! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->