Discrimination
Bo_Selecta
Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9374Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9374Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">sad situation</div> Ok, it's time for me to post a serious topic.
I usually tend to post... somewhat trollisch or impulsive posts (or I just don't post at all) but this really, really bothers me..
I'm living in the Netherlands (AKA Holland),
and as you might or might not have noticed, something is rotten in the state of Holland.
Not only has <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29' target='_blank'>Theo van Gogh</a> been murdered because of his critisism of Islam, the opposite is also happening.
Bomb attacks on moslims schools? Elementary schools? It's a good thing they hit their target at night, those poor children <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's like I'm caught between two fascist fires, one the one hand I'm afraid to go out at night because you have to worry about groups of Moroccan youths being aggresive towards you (or they might steal from you or worse, just because I'm a 'cheese') and at the same time, these same Morrocans won't be admitted to social events and can't even get a decent job because nobody will hire a Morrocan..
I 'get' both sides of the argument.. but it's a downward spiral! And extremists on BOTH sides are just -waiting- for a chance to hate the 'other side'
(the Netherlands had the largest amount of German sympathizers during WWII, impressive for one of the smallest countries in Europe... and those muslim extremists don't seem to be any better either >:( ...), making them exactly alike
Some people are actually calling for a change to the constitution to lessen rights for Muslims<i>!!!</i> WHAT THE HELL?!?!
What should I do? I feel frustrated, angry and sad at the same time. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's like the undoing of the Enlightement, this is a problem in the entire EU but nobody is willing to discuss it, because everybody is afraid of opening Pandora's box =(
-signed off, confused social-liberal with apparently a lot of empathy :/ -
I usually tend to post... somewhat trollisch or impulsive posts (or I just don't post at all) but this really, really bothers me..
I'm living in the Netherlands (AKA Holland),
and as you might or might not have noticed, something is rotten in the state of Holland.
Not only has <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29' target='_blank'>Theo van Gogh</a> been murdered because of his critisism of Islam, the opposite is also happening.
Bomb attacks on moslims schools? Elementary schools? It's a good thing they hit their target at night, those poor children <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's like I'm caught between two fascist fires, one the one hand I'm afraid to go out at night because you have to worry about groups of Moroccan youths being aggresive towards you (or they might steal from you or worse, just because I'm a 'cheese') and at the same time, these same Morrocans won't be admitted to social events and can't even get a decent job because nobody will hire a Morrocan..
I 'get' both sides of the argument.. but it's a downward spiral! And extremists on BOTH sides are just -waiting- for a chance to hate the 'other side'
(the Netherlands had the largest amount of German sympathizers during WWII, impressive for one of the smallest countries in Europe... and those muslim extremists don't seem to be any better either >:( ...), making them exactly alike
Some people are actually calling for a change to the constitution to lessen rights for Muslims<i>!!!</i> WHAT THE HELL?!?!
What should I do? I feel frustrated, angry and sad at the same time. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's like the undoing of the Enlightement, this is a problem in the entire EU but nobody is willing to discuss it, because everybody is afraid of opening Pandora's box =(
-signed off, confused social-liberal with apparently a lot of empathy :/ -
Comments
I usually tend to post... somewhat trollisch or impulsive posts (or I just don't post at all) but this really, really bothers me..
I'm living in the Netherlands (AKA Holland),
and as you might or might not have noticed, something is rotten in the state of Holland.
Not only has <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29' target='_blank'>Theo van Gogh</a> been murdered because of his critisism of Islam, the opposite is also happening.
Bomb attacks on moslims schools? Elementary schools? It's a good thing they hit their target at night, those poor children <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's like I'm caught between two fascist fires, one the one hand I'm afraid to go out at night because you have to worry about groups of Moroccan youths being aggresive towards you (or they might steal from you or worse, just because I'm a 'cheese') and at the same time, these same Morrocans won't be admitted to social events and can't even get a decent job because nobody will hire a Morrocan..
I 'get' both sides of the argument.. but it's a downward spiral! And extremists on BOTH sides are just -waiting- for a chance to hate the 'other side'
(the Netherlands had the largest amount of German sympathizers during WWII, impressive for one of the smallest countries in Europe... and those muslim extremists don't seem to be any better either >:( ...), making them exactly alike
Some people are actually calling for a change to the constitution to lessen rights for Muslims<i>!!!</i> WHAT THE HELL?!?!
What should I do? I feel frustrated, angry and sad at the same time. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's like the undoing of the Enlightement, this is a problem in the entire EU but nobody is willing to discuss it, because everybody is afraid of opening Pandora's box =(
-signed off, confused social-liberal with apparently a lot of empathy :/ - <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of all the places in the world, I would never have pinned the Netherlands as the next sourse of religious conflict.
The answer is certainly not to lash out at the Muslims that are there, all that will do is create more anger, of course if they start lashing out at the populace actions of some sort must be taken. My advice to Holland and to Europe in general is to watch who you let into your country. Perhaps lessen the number of Muslim immigrants allowed onto the continent, and certainly keep those out who are suspected of ties to terrorist organizations or are fundamentalist Muslims.
That may sound harsh, but the best way to avoid a problem is to stop it before it starts, and it has already started.
Culture clashes between the traditional Europeans and fundamentalist Muslims are inevitable, and I'm afraid the blame lies more on one side then the other.
That may sound harsh, but the best way to avoid a problem is to stop it before it starts, and it has already started.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
European countries with declining birth rates will increasingly depend on immigration to replace an aging work force, and many of these workers will come from Arab countries. Therefore, the Netherlands <b>must</b> learn to intergrate those populations successfully. Discrimination based on religion would only upset the Muslim minority and prove to be a step back from the goal of successful integration. Intolerance is not the way to achieve the Netherlands's long-term goals. Pluralism and tolerance are the most effective strategies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Culture clashes between the traditional Europeans and fundamentalist Muslims are inevitable, and I'm afraid the blame lies more on one side then the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to understand that the individuals who you call 'fundamentalist' (I'll debate the use of that term another time) composes such a small percentage of the Dutch Muslim population as opposed to the overwhelming number who are 'moderates'. The people who murdered Theo van Gogh happened to be one of those 'fundamentalists'. However, the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the Netherlands do not support those individuals. Portraying the confict between those 'fundamentalists' and their percieved enemies as 'an inevitable conflict clash' disregards the facts of the situation.
Errr... look at France for a -negative- example? :/
It's like the whole world is viewing things from an us- vs -them viewpoint..
When I turned on the tv this afternoon, what did I hear? Muslims set fire to a church..
Another extremist organisation warned Holland that we could expect something if we kept up 'our attitude towards Muslims'
Yeah, great. That's really going to solve things.
"Therefore, the Netherlands must learn to intergrate those populations successfully"
I agree.
But where do you draw the line? Some things just aren't... acceptable.
How far should cultural assimilation go? from both sides?
I could say 'they' have to accept our values.. is it wrong if I think some Muslims should accept my values?
If not, does it mean they are 'right' when some ex-husbands abduct their children because we are 'heathens' does it mean they are 'right' when a female obviously has less rights compared to a male?
The Muslim community doesn't seem to do anything to silence these kind of ideas..
These things happen. How are 'we' supposed to deal with this?
I don't blame immigrants, I blame the government and the media for ignoring this probem for a long, long time.
Every time someone said something about this problem, he/she was obviously a 'right-wing nazi' (according to the media) so all dialogue was silenced... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think the best thing you can do is hope that "over there" stays "over there" - Sorry to sound heartless, but without absolute morals, anything goes... including murder.
How far should cultural assimilation go? from both sides?
I could say 'they' have to accept our values.. is it wrong if I think some Muslims should accept my values?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Immigrant populations should feel free to retain their cultural traditions and values as long as they are not in conflict with the law of the country they have immigrated to. Dutch society is under no obligation to integrate minorities, <b>but it is in its best interest to do so</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If not, does it mean they are 'right' when some ex-husbands abduct their children because we are 'heathens' does it mean they are 'right' when a female obviously has less rights compared to a male?
The Muslim community doesn't seem to do anything to silence these kind of ideas..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, look. Many Muslims around the world believe that men and women are equal, but have distinct roles to play in society. This view of gender relations is predominant in Indonesia, where I'm assuming most Muslims immigrating to the Netherlands are coming from. This belief needs to be respected as long as long as the rights of individuals under Dutch law are protected.
I think the best thing you can do is hope that "over there" stays "over there" - Sorry to sound heartless, but without absolute morals, anything goes... including murder. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're right about this, then that means that it is impossible to respect cultural practices and beliefs and still integrate immigrants into a society. Judging by the number of countries that have successfully integrated minorities, your assesment does not reflect reality.
I think the best thing you can do is hope that "over there" stays "over there" - Sorry to sound heartless, but without absolute morals, anything goes... including murder. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're right about this, then that means that it is impossible to respect cultural practices and beliefs and still integrate immigrants into a society. Judging by the number of countries that have successfully integrated minorities, your assesment does not reflect reality. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it wrong for me to condemn any culture that accepts terroristic activity as an acceptable expression of ones belief?
I am seeing less and less terrorist radicals and more and more mainstream terrorist supporters. Head scarves and womens rights aside, Muslim ideology supports the use of violence against "infidels".
Until those ideologies removed from the culture, I have a very hard time accepting it as a "good" thing.
Heck, look at 9/11 - you can hardly call that a "successful integration" - they were here for several years before committing that atrocity, and there was very little "integration".
I condemn that culture that those actions came from. It was universally, absolutely wrong. If a culture accepts those actions, that culture is wrong and should be treated as such.
This entire nation is build on the idea of equality, how do you expect me to respect someone who has these kind of believes?
Should I 'respect' the kids wearing Lonsdale shirts because it looks like NSDAP?
Should I 'respect' any other group with views as backwards as that?
I -don't- think most Muslims are like that, but if some of them ARE, they should just stay the hell out of my country and take all the other **** with them, nomatter what the colour of their skin is.
~ DarkATi
Pepe, you describe a culture (or better, culutural tradition, there are multiple Islamic cultures) that's nominally followed by <i>one quarter of the human race</i> after the actions of a small, secretive, aggressive community and a factually unbacked silent majority postulated by yourself. Transporting that argumentative foundation back into our cultural circles, I could easily condemn Christianity based on the actions of the KKK and the homophobic tendencies 'I keep noticing' with lots of Catholics, or American culture based on the actions of the Tiger Brigade during the Vietnam War and all those backwater rednecks 'I keep hearing about'. I'd appreciate if you followed rule #3 of the guidelines, "Try to stay rational.".
(I've been thinking about this <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
It's not that everybody has to have the same believes..
Hell, if a muslim..err, muslimess.. muslima? thinks her husband is superior, go for it. If BDSM is your thing, I won't stop 2 consenting adults from having 'fun'.
But at the same time, nobody deserves to be pushed into a role, male or female, muslim, jew, christian or atheist.
I -enjoy- living here, I don't think I'd be 'accepted' in a lot of other countries...
(somewhat bisexual agnost, drinking a Heineken and rolling a joint right now...
and I grew up spending a lot of time with cows...
way to conform to a stereotype, now where are my wooden shoes <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
We (as a nation) have learned to learned to live together with different groups,
religions, races, we critize each other (whining and moaning about everything and
everyone is a sport around here, it's even a cultural way to start a conversation =D)
but still we respect each other and agree to disagree.
And that's being undone now, because people are afraid to trust each other.
sad.
The saddest thing is that I already knew this would happen
(talking to muslim friends only reaffirmed that feeling, they also thought the situation was explosive), it was only a matter of time...
*edit* oh great.. another church and a muslim school have been set ablaze..
way to go people, way to go.
%$&!% bastards.
That will give you some general coverage of the reaction.
edit: I realized the coverage isn't actually that good, sorry.
Here's a quote from <a href='http://www.expatica.com/source/site_content_subchannel.asp?subchannel_id=1&page=Expatica_Netherlands' target='_blank'>http://www.expatica.com/source/site_conten...ica_Netherlands</a>
<b>Four out of 10 Dutch nationals hope that Muslims no longer feel welcome in the Netherlands</b> and almost 80 percent hope that the government will implement a more stringent integration policy, a survey indicated Tuesday. A survey of 1,857 people conducted by GPD regional newspapers after the murder of Theo van Gogh found that respondents believe that every means possible should be used to crackdown on Islamic extremism, news agency Novum reported. <b>Almost 30 percent hold the entire Muslim community responsible for the murder of Van Gogh.</b> Some 90 percent believe that people will become less tolerant and about the same number want the police and intelligence services to be given greater powers, even if that comes at the cost of personal privacy.
Sounds like the post-9/11 backlash against Muslim Americans.
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3997943.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3997943.stm</a>
Sunday, November 7th: 3 Mosque member prevent radicals from setting fire to their holy house in Huizen
Sunday, November 7th: Attempt to set fire to a mosque in Breda
Sunday, November 7th: Mosque damaged in Rotterdam by burning object
Sunday, November 7th: Another mosque in Rotterdam is defaced with pictures of pigs and racist mantra
Sunday, November 7th: Morrocan bureau for migration defaced with red paint
Monday, November 8th: Police take a man in custody in IJsselstein who had been throwing molotov cocktails at mosques
Monday, November 8th: Mosque attacked with molotov coktails and defaced in Groningen
Monday, November 8th: Explosion at Islamic elementary school in Eindhoven
Monday, November 8th: two churches set on fire in Utrecht en Amersfoort, 1 with molotov cocktails, the other still uncertain
Tuesday, November 9th: Muslim elementary school in Uden set on fire, spraypaint on wall said "Theo R.I.P."
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nooooooooooooo.nonononono what the hell?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->?
I didn't even REALISE it was -THIS- bad, OMG...
I... I don't think I can even describe what I'm feeling right now <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Special k+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Special k)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sounds like the post-9/11 backlash against Muslim Americans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or maybe their dealing with a genuine problem in an unfavorable way.
Don't just brush this off as a backlash that well go away as soon as people calm down.
As I said before, Muslims are not the problem. There are well over 5 million Muslims in France, the largest percentage in Europe (also larger than the percentage of Muslim Americans), and there are no problems occuring there. Maybe it would be wise to look at that situation for a positive example.
Or maybe their dealing with a genuine problem in an unfavorable way.
Don't just brush this off as a backlash that well go away as soon as people calm down.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please clarify? I don't remember saying anything about the problem going away.
<!--QuoteBegin-(e)kent+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((e)kent)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't remember any school burnings after 9/11. Maybe I'm forgetting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2488829.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2488829.stm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Might wanna fix your quote I didn't say that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eep! That's what you get for posting and writing a paper at the same time. How embarassing.
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2488829.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2488829.stm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Might wanna fix your quote I didn't say that.
btw, there was a huge anti-terror raid in The Hague this morning, 3 policemen have been injured by a handgrenade but the standoff seems to be over now.
This had been going on all day because the police was afraid to enter the building, because there was the suspicion the entire building was packed with explosives (there were ties to the Madrid bombing group or something)
Robots are checking the building as I speak..
I've been listening to the police scanner for the last few hours.. interesting..
Naturally, the first riots have already started (then again, this IS the Hague I'm talking about so that's not -really- a sign something's wrong)
Everybody is disrepecting me!
This is my birthday and they should just cut all the crap, damnit, couldn't they do this tommorow?? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
PS: to clarify the situation a little bit.. the backlash isn't really against muslims in general but mostly against Moroccans / North-Africans
If you lived here you unfortunately would understand why.
(they aren't exactly poor and innocent minority group... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
But I'm still hopeful, most people are realizing this downward spiral of hatred from <i>both</i> sides must be fought.
PPS (e)Kent, I still wouldn't use France as a <i>positive</i> example... unless you know more then I do <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> are you French?
Aparently it is the "right" who is the problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At El Tawheed mosque, considered by many people here to be the epicenter of extremism in Amsterdam, Farid Zaari, the mosque's spokesman, argues that pressure from the debate has hindered the Muslim community's ability to control its radical youth.
Dutch media reports insist that van Gogh's killer attended the mosque, and though Zaari says the mosque has no record of his ever being there, he said that political leaders and the media should encourage the mosque to reach out to the community's radical youth, rather than stigmatizing it for doing so.
The mosque was previously associated with a Saudi-based charity, Al Haramain, which American and Saudi Arabian officials accused earlier this year of aiding Islamic terrorists. The mosque has since severed its ties with the charity, but more recently it has been criticized for selling books espousing extremist views, including female circumcision and the punishment of homosexuals by throwing them off tall buildings.
Zaari admits that the Muslim community was slow to respond to the fears within Dutch society. "We didn't feel it was our responsibility to bridge the gap, but now, with the murder, the gap has gotten wider," he said. "All of us want to begin a dialogue now, but <b>the language of the political right is too extreme</b>, and that's preventing discussion," he said. "We all have to cool down and be careful what we say."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I quoted this with some pieces cut out for redundancy's sake. The part that irks me the most is that Muslims don't condemn the killings, they don't condemn the violence. Instead, it is the "political right" using "extreme language".
Full quote here: <a href='http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2004/11/10/news/dutch.html' target='_blank'>http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file...news/dutch.html</a>
Now, just so you all understand, I'm not trying to bash this faith group. I'm sure a most of them are "good people". The fact of the matter is, though, that there isn't any denouncing of this by Muslim leaders. Heck, if the 99% of the faith stood up and said "NO! - this is not us", then maybe the 1% would quit attacking. As it is, the 99% appear to be doing nothing, and that looks like silent support to me.
The KKK is no longer considered "Christian" - how long until these extreemists are not considered "Muslim"?
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_France' target='_blank'>Good wikipedia article on the general subject.</a>
Muslims are pretty marginalized in French society, and there have been a number of incidents of religious violence in France recently. Most of them have actually involved attacks by Muslims on Jewish temples, but that's still indicative of a society where there's a lot of ethnic and religious tension spilling out into public life.
So no, there's currently no rash of attacks by white French persons on mosques. But were a muslim to assassinate a well-liked French celebrity, I could see it happening.
Also kent, remember that the guys who piloted the 9.11 planes were all recruited by AQ in Belgium. There are very significant problems with Muslim and Arab integration in Europe right now, and I think it's disingenuous to pin all the blame on the Europeans. It's just ugly around, and aside from the government taking a stand and condemning all attacks on mosques and schools, I don't see much that can be done on a short-term basis. On a long-term basis, Europe needs to stop ignoring the problem and start instituting integrative programs.
I don't know if "integrative" is actually a word, but if it isn't, it should be.
I was never attempting to do so. When I said, "Muslims are not the problem," which may have led you to believe that, I was referring to reasa's comments and more specifically to my earlier comment which I could clarify by using italics thusly: A large <i>Muslim</i> population is not the problem.
The text in that article reminds me of integration problems America has had in its past. By and large Europe has never had immigration til now and clearly is coping with creating institutions to deal with it. What should be clear though, even if France has "problems" (as if violent crime is unique to them), is that they've succeeded in some policies that have moderated the majority of Muslims and - especially important - their religious leaders. Note the lack of violence surrounding the banning of the headscarves.
Even if it were accurate to say that the Muslim culture was a problem, which I wouldn't agree with, it wouldn't be helpful. 1.2 billion people worship some form of a muslim religion. That's 1/5th the population of <i>humans</i>. That percentage isn't likely to shrink, either, considering birth rates of important countries. I wish it was more clear that this is mostly an immigration issue even though it has been painted with the colors of international politics.
has anyone asked where the animosity comes from? I know many Europeans and Americans don't like how many Muslims view women, for instance, and many Muslims don't like Western support of Israel...
what other issues are there? why do these people hate each other enough to kill each other? are there actual reasons or is it chiefly racism?
Well, I can only speak from my own experience of course but here goes:
The Current Situation In The Lowlands or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love my Neighbour
The Netherlands always had it's fair share of immigrants, especially Holland during the 17th century.
Most immigrants from other parts of the world are doing just fine here.
But the current situation is different:
In the 60s and 70s, most muslim immigrants came here to basically become our janitors (because of the booming economy there wasn't enough cheap labour available).
And everybody thought they'd go back home after a while. And they could bring their relatives because that would be more humane, you can't seperate a family.
And those relatives can bring their relatives too! I mean, they'll all go away after they made enough money, right?
Aaah, those poor naive socialists.
Of course they didn't go away, why should they? they're Dutch now!
Most of them are just hardworking people, trying to make a living and finding their way through life (with their god allah whatever thing <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
We invited them yet in a way a lot of people look down at them.....
They can't go to certain 'better' clubs, because of the colour of their skin.
They can't even get a decent job because of their names and because of their culture.
at the same time:
Whenever you hire someone who is .. err, muslim, especially from.. -certain- countries, you are taking a serious risk, because there is a real chance said person will never even show up.
When a new immigration center open, the government always gives free security systems and new locks to people living around the complex. Burglary always rises about 250% in those parts of the city.
It's not safe to take the train anymore, the people working at the railroad company are afraid to check people's tickets on certain rides and theft has become common. The culprits are usually from North-African descent.
I couldn't take a walk in certain parts of major cities here. Especially in the evening or at night.
Why? Because I'm a white male with blue eyes and blond hair.
The biggest problem -here- is that the 2 groups have become socially isolated.
The politicians always seemed to ignore the issue and anyone who even -dared- to speak of an immigration problem was immediately labeled a 'nazi' or 'an extreme rightwing nazi'.
So nothing happened and the whole thing escalated.
And the police are doing nothing to stop extremists on both sides, not because they won't but because they wouldn't know how (last year, 8 suspected terrorists were released from custody because the court decided that proof that came from the secret service was -by default- unlawful o_X)
Fortunately the situation isn't quite THIS bleak (what I wrote may have sounded a -bit- harsh), the vast majority of my fellow Dutchinians -do- live and work together so apparently -something-'s working <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Their silence does not equal support and there's no data to show that it does. Its a failure of Muslim communities to organize and articulate their points of view. This is a problem for Muslim minorities across the world, especially in the Western world, where Muslims are most misunderstood.
<!--QuoteBegin-(e)kent+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((e)kent)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if it were accurate to say that the Muslim culture was a problem, which I wouldn't agree with, it wouldn't be helpful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. However, remember that there is no 'Muslim culture'. Muslims live everywhere and adhere to a wide range of beliefs and cultural practices.
On the issue of assigning blame for failures to integrate: Why does blame need to be laid? Blame just complicates things. Both groups have a problem and both groups need to work together to solve it.
And if we need examples of successful integration of minorities, there's always Britain, Canada, and the US.