DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Since we are talking pubs, lets asume they are idiots. Also lets asume that the rines are also idiots. Always asume anyone else in the team is a idiot and you won't lose that much.
As moomin said, chances are they will have lerks and fades, and even though they are suicide rushing, they will be pure fodder. You have to judge the skill/communication of your marines. For example, if someone can shoot well but never ever listens to you and rambo's 24/7, don't give him a heavy. However, if someone has a semi-decent shot and listens to you give him a heavy. Even if they are pubs, you'll still find at least 3 people who know what they're doing (as in listen).
Even though you'll spawn like crazy you assume it'll just be you vs skulks, and that you outspawn them. However, a skilled fade won't die to your LMGers, especially if they are weakened by spore. However, 3 heavies could probably take down a fade (they have HMGs), and since we are talking about hive 1, the onos will be fodder to the heavies. Even if he nabs one, he's dead eventually.
I assume nothing..as ive tested this substantially....
Even verses HIVE THREE aliens.... you storm in.. and get enough RFK that usually i drop a GL or HMG every 10-20 seconds... which people keep constantly picking up, since there are always people phasing....
Not only is it a godforsaken bloodbath (for both sides) but the feelin of accomplishment when that hive goes down, knowing u spawned 20 times to do it....
Then... beacon... and have ur guys rush to the next hive... pg.. and repeat... :-P
NO.. it isnt foolproof.. and on two occasions so far ive actually had the aliens TAKE OUT the pg.... but even if there are 4 aliens munching it... and 9 phas thru... ya 6 might die to instagib bites, but some will survive to jump off and scatter the aliens.... whatever.... what you have to rememeber, is... by the time fades show up... i have my dual arms labs researching lvl 2 and 3 ups.. Arms lab is my first priority (so many IP that meds are only needed if securing a resnode, ect)... so, yea... hive 3 aliens vs fully upped (grenades, mt, all upped) marines at the 11 min mark... an endless swarm of these marines.... yea..... u punch thru eventually.....specially with the constant HMG's, GL, ect.....
You all keep telling me why this wont work.. and all i have to say is ive done it... quite often.. and it does.. PROVIDED... marines listen....e.g. not more than 1-2 rambo's (in a pub game.. thats an accomplishment)
Its not the end all be all strat, and it doesent even have a higher success rating than good comms id guess... Its just someting contrary to common commanding strategies, and more importantly.... marines tend to have FUN with this strat, constant action... mayhem and always on the verge of losing the firefight.... as opposed to locking down hives... turrets... sitting around and masterbating until heavy trains come along... then pounding the last hive to bits to the heavy footsteps of ::klunk, klunk,klunk::
Once again, not dissing common strat, just saying people tell my MINE is funner.... which is really all i care about, NS is a game......
Yeah seriously, 1 Lerk alone would cripple this excuse for a strat. Not to mention you're going to give them so much RfK, Aliens have to conciously try to lose :o
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Nov 4 2004, 04:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Nov 4 2004, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah seriously, 1 Lerk alone would cripple this excuse for a strat. Not to mention you're going to give them so much RfK, Aliens have to conciously try to lose :o <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> haha... try it sometime.... :-P
Watch lerk, onos, fade, AND eventually all hives... Fail miserably to your endless zergling rush of marines...
<!--QuoteBegin-SDJASON+Nov 4 2004, 04:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON @ Nov 4 2004, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Nov 4 2004, 04:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Nov 4 2004, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah seriously, 1 Lerk alone would cripple this excuse for a strat. Not to mention you're going to give them so much RfK, Aliens have to conciously try to lose :o <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> haha... try it sometime.... :-P
Watch lerk, onos, fade, AND eventually all hives... Fail miserably to your endless zergling rush of marines...
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> massing ips would mean relying on marines with lmgs constantly battering on the aliens...but if the map is with a nice network of ventilation systems and the lerk is not stupid, then marines would find it extremely hard to kill the lerk in the vent as well as remembering to defend themselves from skulks at the same time.
massing ips also mean much res would be used up for ips instead of tech, which would make fending off fades and onii extremely hard.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I would use this strat depending on what map I'm on. If the map doesn't have an extensive vent system that can gas mariens to death everywhere (this strat will probably work on ns_veil for example) and I mean *everywhere* since marines don't have to stop at a seige spot, then this can be very effective.
<!--QuoteBegin-SDJASON+Nov 4 2004, 04:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON @ Nov 4 2004, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Nov 4 2004, 04:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Nov 4 2004, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah seriously, 1 Lerk alone would cripple this excuse for a strat. Not to mention you're going to give them so much RfK, Aliens have to conciously try to lose :o <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> haha... try it sometime.... :-P
Watch lerk, onos, fade, AND eventually all hives... Fail miserably to your endless zergling rush of marines...
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've seen it lots of times. Vs 1 Hive its at least a contest, but every other way of dealing with 1 Hive aliens is safer. With aliens being of remotely capable intelligence level, they'll all have Fades and Lerks in a matter of minutes thanks to the RfK you're feeding them, and your armorless chewtoys will flop over just as fast as they spawn - meaning they won't control a whole lot of the map, do much damage nor really achieve anything.
In a competitive enviroment, I remember iRiot (RIP) attempting that vs a largely inferior clan - IP rush relocate outside of cargo on ns_veil, spawncamp friendliest Hive ever. Aliens won without a contest - it was lerking heaven. I fully realize the skilldifference in pubs often outweighs CAL Delta vs ringer-team proportions - but the above was only to illustrate that even a dramatically better marine team didn't have much success with it. You can conclude that when that does succeed, you're dealing with a skilldifference so big you might as well have Hand Grenade rushed and built no IPs at all <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I think it was the surprise element that has helps a lot. I've done that exact same thing outside of furnace hive in Origin, and we manageds to take the aliens down using only 4 IPs. It was the beginning of the game, and we simply outspawned them. One person went and capped nodes and the rest jumped ran in and emptied their clips. The aliens could never afford to go out and expand because they had a constant stream of rines to worry about. They lost their base res node too. Game was over in 4 minutes.
It seems you all mean relocating and building mass ip EARLY GAME...
im referring to MID/ENDGAME.... instead of dropping HA and weapons, i make a few (lots) of extra IP's, and NINJA a phase gate.... from there..... i win...
Simply because the mass stream of 3/3 upped marines eventually pwns the hive...
against 2 hives... ill give em all the res i want.... beacon... rush the next hive get a pg up... and take it down too...
Plain and simple... ill give each alien 100RFK.. if the hive goes down i dont freaking care..... ill beacon the second the hive is down.. and have my marines walk to the next hive... literally 30 seconds later... 8-10 marines will have a NEW phase up and be assaulting another hive......
Anyways... im done debating my strat with anyone who wont try it....... :-P lol
<!--QuoteBegin-D.C. Darkling+Nov 4 2004, 06:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (D.C. Darkling @ Nov 4 2004, 06:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Since we are talking pubs, lets asume they are idiots. Also lets asume that the rines are also idiots. Always asume anyone else in the team is a idiot and you won't lose that much. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> there ARE good pubs filled with vets u should try one
4 Fades vs a non stop assault of 6 marines thru a pg every 10 seconds... DEAD since they cant really kill them faster than they phase in (have to regen sooner or later, lvl 3 guns pack a punch)
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> if they have 4 fades what makes u think they dont have an onos? stomp = gg
<!--QuoteBegin-apex`+Nov 6 2004, 08:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (apex` @ Nov 6 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> play on a better server 9 x ips = 180 res that could easily be spent on a jp/shotty rush to end the game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thing is..... that isnt fun.... :-P
<!--QuoteBegin-SDJASON+Nov 7 2004, 06:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON @ Nov 7 2004, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-apex`+Nov 6 2004, 08:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (apex` @ Nov 6 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> play on a better server 9 x ips = 180 res that could easily be spent on a jp/shotty rush to end the game <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> thing is..... that isnt fun.... :-P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yea ok dragging on a game that shouldve ended 1 hour sooner is fun
<!--QuoteBegin-apex`+Nov 7 2004, 10:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (apex` @ Nov 7 2004, 10:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SDJASON+Nov 7 2004, 06:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON @ Nov 7 2004, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-apex`+Nov 6 2004, 08:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (apex` @ Nov 6 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> play on a better server 9 x ips = 180 res that could easily be spent on a jp/shotty rush to end the game <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> thing is..... that isnt fun.... :-P <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yea ok dragging on a game that shouldve ended 1 hour sooner is fun <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thing is... if u lose the HA/JP/shotties by some fluke(good aliens) or bad marines... that res is gone.
My strat rarely fails....AND.... it only prolongs the game by 10 min
Pease let SDJason speak...... It seems that there is a bible of strategies out (no offence to the book in question) and if you differ from these strategies you will be called a n00b comm or just plain stupid. Frankly people should try new strategies. that how the game grows and changes. This is just like the SC chamber first discussion on Kharra board. It can work it you play it right. Wierd stategies work, as well as being fun for the people in the first place. You dissing this strategy is like saying seiges are for n00bs because the lerk can gas them. ok.......
<!--QuoteBegin-Spartan25+Nov 9 2004, 12:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spartan25 @ Nov 9 2004, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It seems that there is a bible of strategies out (no offence to the book in question) and if you differ from these strategies you will be called a n00b comm or just plain stupid .... You dissing this strategy is like saying seiges are for n00bs because the lerk can gas them. ok.......<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Just plain no.
This "bible" of strategies is just a lie. Successful strats are most commonly used (by good coms) because of one thing, and one thing only - <b>they work</b>. In the next version of NS when things have been changed in order to create better "balance" then people will probably still be using the same strats. Simply because they are the <b>most often successful and cost/time-efficient</b>.
These strategies simply have the best chance of success. This (of course) is based on the assumption of a competetive environment in which <b>the game is played to its full potential</b> in terms of teamwork and co-operation.
People have been working out strats since version 3 beta was publically released - due to the major changes of gameplay. If this were version 2.02 with balance changes the <b>same strats would still be in use as in version 2.01</b>.
The simple matter of the fact is that these strats have (one of, or) the best balance between res cost/time cost/pressure. New strats do not appear often in the same version because they will usually dip towards one end of the spectrum too far.
eg 2 Hive Lockdowns - Bad Strat. Res Cost - <b>HIGH</b> Time Cost - <b>HIGH</b> Pressure - <b>LOW</b>
The best strats use the absolute minimum of res expenditure, absolute minimum amount of time possible - and maximum pressure. This is the simplest, best way to defeat the enemy team - constant pressure and harassment whilst buliding up your own economy. Same as almost any RTS you can name.
2)
What. The. Hell.
You don't like people "dissing" your strat?
Fix it then. Take their advice and make it better - then when people have criticisms of it you use them to make it better again. The reason people are "dissing" your strat is not because it is different or even because it is interesting, it is because it is a waste of time and res (granted, not a waste of pressure, but just far, far too much of it (which in retrospect really is a waste)) which would have been much better spent using other known strats which simply work a hell of a lot better, faster and more cost-efficiently.
And how is it like saying "sieges are for n00bs cos lerks can gas them" ?? I fail to see how you can make this comparison based simply on your own presumptions.
Actually, I'm going to stop here. No point typing out another entire argument which is identical to Nadagast's in the General forum - when I can simply <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=84913' target='_blank'>link</a> to it.
and hence prolonging the game when it could have been over, in his own words, <b>ten minutes ago</b>.
All those IP's wouldnt be needed if your marines werent constantly dying and feeding the aliens RFK - whilst they're putting RT's up and getting <b>ridiculous</b> amounts of resflow. Oh, and with all those marines getting owned on the way to their start hive - you have far fewer RT's than you would by using a <b>successful</b> strat. That's right <b>successful</b>. Had you been playing against competent aliens with competent levels of teamwork this strat would not work.
Your marines would be throwing themselves into the hive room and getting boned by the lack of resources due to RT deprivation, which in turn means less meds and upgrades.
Oh wait, you only have a few ip's at the start right - and you get rt's whilst upgrading - before building more IP's and pushing on their start hive, right?
Ok, what about the second hive? What about the insane amounts of RFK you're giving them? What about the map-critical locations which you are <b>literally handing to the other team on a silver platter</b>.
These are the issues which the supporters of this strat have <b>failed to address</b> after being questioned on them time and again. These are the issues which mean a competent alien team will leave you dead in the water with a backlogged spawn queue and no RT's or upgrades.
These are also the issues you need to address if this is to become a viable strat - which I cannot see happening without significant changes (which would make it very similar to a normal pressure/rt-rush strat).
NEO_PhyteWe need shirtgons!Join Date: 2003-12-16Member: 24453Members, Constellation
so, it takes 10 minutes longer, but is more fun for the marines
[assumption based on above post] the aliens get RFK, allowing them to do stuff, allowing THEM to have fun (and a better chance of winning in games with large amounts of players (e.g. PUB games) [/assumption based on above post]
both teams are having fun (based on what i have read in this thread) That sounds like a good thing.
and how do you know this strat would get ripped up by better aliens?
<!--QuoteBegin-SpaceJesus+Nov 9 2004, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SpaceJesus @ Nov 9 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and hence prolonging the game when it could have been over, in his own words, <b>ten minutes ago</b>.
All those IP's wouldnt be needed if your marines werent constantly dying and feeding the aliens RFK - whilst they're putting RT's up and getting <b>ridiculous</b> amounts of resflow. Oh, and with all those marines getting owned on the way to their start hive - you have far fewer RT's than you would by using a <b>successful</b> strat. That's right <b>successful</b>. Had you been playing against competent aliens with competent levels of teamwork this strat would not work.
Your marines would be throwing themselves into the hive room and getting boned by the lack of resources due to RT deprivation, which in turn means less meds and upgrades.
Oh wait, you only have a few ip's at the start right - and you get rt's whilst upgrading - before building more IP's and pushing on their start hive, right?
Ok, what about the second hive? What about the insane amounts of RFK you're giving them? What about the map-critical locations which you are <b>literally handing to the other team on a silver platter</b>.
These are the issues which the supporters of this strat have <b>failed to address</b> after being questioned on them time and again. These are the issues which mean a competent alien team will leave you dead in the water with a backlogged spawn queue and no RT's or upgrades.
These are also the issues you need to address if this is to become a viable strat - which I cannot see happening without significant changes (which would make it very similar to a normal pressure/rt-rush strat). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ill address them right now:
1. The game would have been over 10 minutes ago: Against the LAST remaining hive, this strat totally pwns..... while it ownt down it as fast as say, 8-10 HA/HMG walking int, itll get it down extremely fast... This strategy shines at SECOND HIVE and THIRD HIVE... sure, put 150-200 res into heavy suits for mairnes, and watch em all possibly die... id say.... endgame (against 2 hive aliens) it is very possible for a "good" alien team to decimate a heavy train However, put, say..... 100 res into 5 ip's, and drop...3 hmg for the SAME amount of res (giving you 7 IP total) and the game becomes ZERGLING RUSHING) (as soon as the pg is up), spores, stomp, fades, ect dont matter.... they get a ton of kills, but the RINES KEEP COMING, and bit by bit.. the hive goes down (MARINES get lots of res for kills too, allowing the comm (you) to send in more heavy weapons and keep upgrading (if ur not done) Not to mention its funner... rushing in.. grabbing the HMG on the ground... reloading and shooting.. spawn, phase into a freaking DEATHMATCH of aliens and marines... blood everywhere... gas, stomp, fades blinking, and in the distance... that large ugly hive.. which must fall... (Funner than heavy stomp stomping in ahd HMGIN THE **** OUT OF EVERYTHING)
2. Marines getting pwned on thier way to the start hive (i dotn spawncamp), and my strat starts OFF exactly like any other strat (armory, 1-2 ip) cap res... bla bla bla.. i dont start amassing ip's until, say... the 6-10 minute mark (for the second hive assault) so this entire point is invalid, as it applies equally to every strat, and i never made any claim that my strat can compensate for something like this (Note: I get the phase gate up at the start hive AFTER ive secured resnodes and have upgrades, NEVER before the 6-10 min mark)
3. Marines throwing themselves into hive room.. getting boned...lack of rt's means no medspam Thing is, i usualyl have 3-5 RT and as ive stated repeatedly, the IP rushing section doesent ocme in until 2nd hive time (6-10 minutes) at which point i feel the IP's are more valuable than thier res equivalent in HA/HMG's or similar... With armor 3 (ill have it by 8 min EVERY game) the marines last long enough to do some damage, and yea ill drop medspam occasionally (wow am i good at medspam...lol) most of the time the constant stream of marines means it doesent matter, they just kill a few aliens, empty a bit into the hive... die, spawn... repeat..... ALiens dont spawn fast enought to keep up, so it soon becomes like 2-3 higher life form aliens verses the entire marine team and the 2 skulks that spawn at a time (assuming 2 hives)
4. I cap rt's.. dont defend them.. it doesent matter... most games i dont even lockdown a hive... 2-3 marine squads patrolling resnodes and constantly rebuilding ones that go down and protecting em gives me the res i need (5 min of 5 nodes is ALL i need) for most upgrades, and the IP's i need (adding in RFK) once ive started the rush on the 2nd hive... its endgame right there... nothing else matters... To quote you directly "What about the insane amounts of RFK you're giving them? What about the map-critical locations which you are <b>literally handing to the other team on a silver platter</b>."
Umm... get the 2nd hive down... i dont give a **** if they have double, or every other node on the map.... i dont freaking care... AT ALL..... give them whatever the hell they want... once the hives are down... u win... regardless of whether the aliens ahev 1 or 100 res nodes....... i HAVE had instances where i will have to pull this off 8-10 times a game simply BECAUSE i dont lockdown hievs (and as a result they keep getting put back up), and it does lengthen the game, but its absolutely the best games ever (ask anyone who has been in one) because it keeps the feeling that "the tide could turn at any second" and adrenaline rushes... ect.....
I know ive defended many of these before, but ur right, i wasnt always clear... i hope this clears it up.....
Thing is...... i can think up many reasons why "conventional" strats can fail
Onos stomp Good lerks gassing Cloaked skulks waiting Good fades tearing marines apart bit by bit...
All of these are valid arguments, except for 2 reasons...
1. While effective at countering the established customary HA/HMG strat, thye do not do it well enough to totally counter the strat enough to effectively argue the strat countered by them
2. We all know from experience that the HA/HMG strat is sucessful, so we automatically say reason 1..... just because we know the strat works
The exact opposite happens for new strats....
Since you dont know it works... you automatically think of and OVER EXAGGERATE counters.....
Try the strat... simple as that... try it until you can make it work... then you will understand how powerful it really is (NOT THE END ALL BE ALL STRAT, but highly effective....
I believe the end all be all strat IS HA/HMG (provided decent marines)... but to me... this automatically makes it not fun... simply because the common mindset in HA/HMG games is OMG HEAVIES WE WIN... or OMG HEAVIES we lose (alien point of view)
My games... are 30min-2.5 hrs of constant WHO IS GOING TO WIN (provided the aliens are decent... else i get 10-20 min BG BG BG games...
Im just lookin for fun... here is a fun strat that is effective... that is all :-P
@ spacejesus... i dont mean to offend you... if that is how my post appears im sorry... im just civily disputing your arguments... anything else youd care to discuss on this matter... im completely open minded... as you are the first person to post a relatively concise and clear thought out rebuttal to my strat... so im happy to answer... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(bear in mind im basing my entire post on this strat being used in high-level competetive play (where teamwork and strategy actually make an impact))
Okay, so you start the game normally, IP/Armory/Arms
push and cap rt's, and get about 4-5.
Now, this is going to be the 4 minute mark (give or take). So now you do what until 6 minutes?
anyway, at about 4:30 or 5:00 you're gonna have a pair of fades, possibly 3. And how exactly do you plan on killing these fades? By throwing a1/w1 LA marines at them? they'll get ripped to shreds easily. Even easier at the 6-7 min mark when hive2 is up.
But, to use your own words <!--QuoteBegin-SDJASON+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i dont start amassing ip's until, say... the 6-10 minute mark (for the second hive assault)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like, wth?
after 6-8 mins you're gonna be dead or dying unless you drop hmg/shotguns and successfully rush the second hive. You'll have fades and lerks umbra-owning your team regardless of how many IPs you have.
And anyway, how are you planning to get to the hive? PG? It'll get stomp spammed and anyone that comes through it will die to a barrage of swipes and bites before they realise whats on the other side. Walking is hardly any better as spore will weaken your armour and even if you weld you're only gonna have like half of your squad at worst ready to engage that fade for the second or two that it blinks in and bones one of your squad.
Yeah, as an FYI you should never lockdown a hive, ever. RT and PG is the only thing you need. evar. Maybe elec the RT but thats all.
And if you think the HA train is commonly used in competetive play you've obviously not seen many matches. I have yet to see a decent match which has resorted to HA training.
High-level matches are won with LA rushes with a mixture of SG's and HMG's. HA is incredibly rarely utilised (afaik).
And for 200 res you could get like ... 10 HMG/welder combo's. That's a lot of firepower even at w2. Especially with cats <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Attrition... my demomaking skills are mediocre.... BUT...
id invite you to come on the NSarmslab Server, G4B2S server, or Texas(HK) server, these are the ones i most frequent... and if im on.... ask me to comm.. most people on will support my strat, as they have seen it work in the past....
Ill show you a godawful bloodbath, and yet... you WILL spawn back every 10 seconds.......
The following is a quote from Jammno in the Kharaa Strategy forum...
IT basically sums it all up, so ill just post it without any explanation whatsoever
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ugh, I'm not going to bother trying to combat "Theorycraft."
All I have to say is that you should test it before you doubt it.
If you can get enough people together for a test, I can post a demo of it working. =P (As long as megaworm isn't down.)
People on a regular basis claim strats don't work or other propoganda. Point is they never test it.
Hell, I used rifle/casters and climbed very high rank ladder on WC3. Back when everyone said rifles and casters suck. Now look at the game. Rifles/Caster is basic cookie cutter. Everyone does it!
Takes the public TOO long to realize a good strategy when it comes around. All they do is shoot the messenger.
If you want to believe that this strat won't work. By all means keep thinking that. More power to those with open minds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Also lets asume that the rines are also idiots.
Always asume anyone else in the team is a idiot and you won't lose that much.
Even though you'll spawn like crazy you assume it'll just be you vs skulks, and that you outspawn them. However, a skilled fade won't die to your LMGers, especially if they are weakened by spore. However, 3 heavies could probably take down a fade (they have HMGs), and since we are talking about hive 1, the onos will be fodder to the heavies. Even if he nabs one, he's dead eventually.
Even verses HIVE THREE aliens.... you storm in.. and get enough RFK that usually i drop a GL or HMG every 10-20 seconds... which people keep constantly picking up, since there are always people phasing....
Not only is it a godforsaken bloodbath (for both sides) but the feelin of accomplishment when that hive goes down, knowing u spawned 20 times to do it....
Then... beacon... and have ur guys rush to the next hive... pg.. and repeat... :-P
NO.. it isnt foolproof.. and on two occasions so far ive actually had the aliens TAKE OUT the pg.... but even if there are 4 aliens munching it... and 9 phas thru... ya 6 might die to instagib bites, but some will survive to jump off and scatter the aliens.... whatever.... what you have to rememeber, is... by the time fades show up... i have my dual arms labs researching lvl 2 and 3 ups..
Arms lab is my first priority (so many IP that meds are only needed if securing a resnode, ect)... so, yea... hive 3 aliens vs fully upped (grenades, mt, all upped) marines at the 11 min mark... an endless swarm of these marines.... yea..... u punch thru eventually.....specially with the constant HMG's, GL, ect.....
You all keep telling me why this wont work.. and all i have to say is ive done it... quite often.. and it does.. PROVIDED... marines listen....e.g. not more than 1-2 rambo's (in a pub game.. thats an accomplishment)
Its not the end all be all strat, and it doesent even have a higher success rating than good comms id guess...
Its just someting contrary to common commanding strategies, and more importantly.... marines tend to have FUN with this strat, constant action... mayhem and always on the verge of losing the firefight.... as opposed to locking down hives... turrets... sitting around and masterbating until heavy trains come along... then pounding the last hive to bits to the heavy footsteps of ::klunk, klunk,klunk::
Once again, not dissing common strat, just saying people tell my MINE is funner.... which is really all i care about, NS is a game......
~Jason
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=68792&hl=lies' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...c=68792&hl=lies</a>
that was back in MAY.
haha... try it sometime.... :-P
Watch lerk, onos, fade, AND eventually all hives... Fail miserably to your endless zergling rush of marines...
~Jason
haha... try it sometime.... :-P
Watch lerk, onos, fade, AND eventually all hives... Fail miserably to your endless zergling rush of marines...
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
massing ips would mean relying on marines with lmgs constantly battering on the aliens...but if the map is with a nice network of ventilation systems and the lerk is not stupid, then marines would find it extremely hard to kill the lerk in the vent as well as remembering to defend themselves from skulks at the same time.
massing ips also mean much res would be used up for ips instead of tech, which would make fending off fades and onii extremely hard.
haha... try it sometime.... :-P
Watch lerk, onos, fade, AND eventually all hives... Fail miserably to your endless zergling rush of marines...
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen it lots of times. Vs 1 Hive its at least a contest, but every other way of dealing with 1 Hive aliens is safer. With aliens being of remotely capable intelligence level, they'll all have Fades and Lerks in a matter of minutes thanks to the RfK you're feeding them, and your armorless chewtoys will flop over just as fast as they spawn - meaning they won't control a whole lot of the map, do much damage nor really achieve anything.
In a competitive enviroment, I remember iRiot (RIP) attempting that vs a largely inferior clan - IP rush relocate outside of cargo on ns_veil, spawncamp friendliest Hive ever. Aliens won without a contest - it was lerking heaven. I fully realize the skilldifference in pubs often outweighs CAL Delta vs ringer-team proportions - but the above was only to illustrate that even a dramatically better marine team didn't have much success with it. You can conclude that when that does succeed, you're dealing with a skilldifference so big you might as well have Hand Grenade rushed and built no IPs at all <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It seems you all mean relocating and building mass ip EARLY GAME...
im referring to MID/ENDGAME.... instead of dropping HA and weapons, i make a few (lots) of extra IP's, and NINJA a phase gate.... from there..... i win...
Simply because the mass stream of 3/3 upped marines eventually pwns the hive...
against 2 hives... ill give em all the res i want.... beacon... rush the next hive get a pg up... and take it down too...
Plain and simple... ill give each alien 100RFK.. if the hive goes down i dont freaking care..... ill beacon the second the hive is down.. and have my marines walk to the next hive... literally 30 seconds later... 8-10 marines will have a NEW phase up and be assaulting another hive......
Anyways... im done debating my strat with anyone who wont try it....... :-P
lol
~Jason
9 x ips = 180 res that could easily be spent on a jp/shotty rush to end the game
Also lets asume that the rines are also idiots.
Always asume anyone else in the team is a idiot and you won't lose that much. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
there ARE good pubs filled with vets
u should try one
4 Fades vs a non stop assault of 6 marines thru a pg every 10 seconds... DEAD since they cant really kill them faster than they phase in (have to regen sooner or later, lvl 3 guns pack a punch)
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
if they have 4 fades what makes u think they dont have an onos?
stomp = gg
and u use them all
GG.
9 x ips = 180 res that could easily be spent on a jp/shotty rush to end the game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thing is..... that isnt fun.... :-P
9 x ips = 180 res that could easily be spent on a jp/shotty rush to end the game <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thing is..... that isnt fun.... :-P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea ok dragging on a game that shouldve ended 1 hour sooner is fun
9 x ips = 180 res that could easily be spent on a jp/shotty rush to end the game <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thing is..... that isnt fun.... :-P <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea ok dragging on a game that shouldve ended 1 hour sooner is fun <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing is... if u lose the HA/JP/shotties by some fluke(good aliens) or bad marines... that res is gone.
My strat rarely fails....AND.... it only prolongs the game by 10 min
ANd hell yes its a hell of a lot more fun... :-P
....
You dissing this strategy is like saying seiges are for n00bs because the lerk can gas them. ok.......<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Just plain no.
This "bible" of strategies is just a lie. Successful strats are most commonly used (by good coms) because of one thing, and one thing only - <b>they work</b>.
In the next version of NS when things have been changed in order to create better "balance" then people will probably still be using the same strats. Simply because they are the <b>most often successful and cost/time-efficient</b>.
These strategies simply have the best chance of success. This (of course) is based on the assumption of a competetive environment in which <b>the game is played to its full potential</b> in terms of teamwork and co-operation.
People have been working out strats since version 3 beta was publically released - due to the major changes of gameplay.
If this were version 2.02 with balance changes the <b>same strats would still be in use as in version 2.01</b>.
The simple matter of the fact is that these strats have (one of, or) the best balance between res cost/time cost/pressure. New strats do not appear often in the same version because they will usually dip towards one end of the spectrum too far.
eg
2 Hive Lockdowns - Bad Strat.
Res Cost - <b>HIGH</b>
Time Cost - <b>HIGH</b>
Pressure - <b>LOW</b>
The best strats use the absolute minimum of res expenditure, absolute minimum amount of time possible - and maximum pressure. This is the simplest, best way to defeat the enemy team - constant pressure and harassment whilst buliding up your own economy. Same as almost any RTS you can name.
2)
What.
The.
Hell.
You don't like people "dissing" your strat?
Fix it then. Take their advice and make it better - then when people have criticisms of it you use them to make it better again. The reason people are "dissing" your strat is not because it is different or even because it is interesting, it is because it is a waste of time and res (granted, not a waste of pressure, but just far, far too much of it (which in retrospect really is a waste)) which would have been much better spent using other known strats which simply work a hell of a lot better, faster and more cost-efficiently.
And how is it like saying "sieges are for n00bs cos lerks can gas them" ??
I fail to see how you can make this comparison based simply on your own presumptions.
Actually, I'm going to stop here. No point typing out another entire argument which is identical to Nadagast's in the General forum - when I can simply <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=84913' target='_blank'>link</a> to it.
Go Figure.
HAD FUN
<b>HAD FUN</b>
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>HAD FUN</b></span>
this is a game. you are supposed to have fun when you play games.
and stop going "OMG no this strat wont work"
he uses this strat lots, and it HAS been working
and as he posted, he doesnt get all the IPs right away, he starts with standard amounts and adds the rest over time, while still getting upgrades
All those IP's wouldnt be needed if your marines werent constantly dying and feeding the aliens RFK - whilst they're putting RT's up and getting <b>ridiculous</b> amounts of resflow.
Oh, and with all those marines getting owned on the way to their start hive - you have far fewer RT's than you would by using a <b>successful</b> strat. That's right <b>successful</b>. Had you been playing against competent aliens with competent levels of teamwork this strat would not work.
Your marines would be throwing themselves into the hive room and getting boned by the lack of resources due to RT deprivation, which in turn means less meds and upgrades.
Oh wait, you only have a few ip's at the start right - and you get rt's whilst upgrading - before building more IP's and pushing on their start hive, right?
Ok, what about the second hive? What about the insane amounts of RFK you're giving them? What about the map-critical locations which you are <b>literally handing to the other team on a silver platter</b>.
These are the issues which the supporters of this strat have <b>failed to address</b> after being questioned on them time and again. These are the issues which mean a competent alien team will leave you dead in the water with a backlogged spawn queue and no RT's or upgrades.
These are also the issues you need to address if this is to become a viable strat - which I cannot see happening without significant changes (which would make it very similar to a normal pressure/rt-rush strat).
[assumption based on above post]
the aliens get RFK, allowing them to do stuff, allowing THEM to have fun (and a better chance of winning in games with large amounts of players (e.g. PUB games)
[/assumption based on above post]
both teams are having fun
(based on what i have read in this thread)
That sounds like a good thing.
and how do you know this strat would get ripped up by better aliens?
All those IP's wouldnt be needed if your marines werent constantly dying and feeding the aliens RFK - whilst they're putting RT's up and getting <b>ridiculous</b> amounts of resflow.
Oh, and with all those marines getting owned on the way to their start hive - you have far fewer RT's than you would by using a <b>successful</b> strat. That's right <b>successful</b>. Had you been playing against competent aliens with competent levels of teamwork this strat would not work.
Your marines would be throwing themselves into the hive room and getting boned by the lack of resources due to RT deprivation, which in turn means less meds and upgrades.
Oh wait, you only have a few ip's at the start right - and you get rt's whilst upgrading - before building more IP's and pushing on their start hive, right?
Ok, what about the second hive? What about the insane amounts of RFK you're giving them? What about the map-critical locations which you are <b>literally handing to the other team on a silver platter</b>.
These are the issues which the supporters of this strat have <b>failed to address</b> after being questioned on them time and again. These are the issues which mean a competent alien team will leave you dead in the water with a backlogged spawn queue and no RT's or upgrades.
These are also the issues you need to address if this is to become a viable strat - which I cannot see happening without significant changes (which would make it very similar to a normal pressure/rt-rush strat). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ill address them right now:
1. The game would have been over 10 minutes ago:
Against the LAST remaining hive, this strat totally pwns..... while it ownt down it as fast as say, 8-10 HA/HMG walking int, itll get it down extremely fast...
This strategy shines at SECOND HIVE and THIRD HIVE... sure, put 150-200 res into heavy suits for mairnes, and watch em all possibly die... id say.... endgame (against 2 hive aliens) it is very possible for a "good" alien team to decimate a heavy train
However, put, say..... 100 res into 5 ip's, and drop...3 hmg for the SAME amount of res (giving you 7 IP total) and the game becomes ZERGLING RUSHING) (as soon as the pg is up), spores, stomp, fades, ect dont matter.... they get a ton of kills, but the RINES KEEP COMING, and bit by bit.. the hive goes down (MARINES get lots of res for kills too, allowing the comm (you) to send in more heavy weapons and keep upgrading (if ur not done) Not to mention its funner... rushing in.. grabbing the HMG on the ground... reloading and shooting.. spawn, phase into a freaking DEATHMATCH of aliens and marines... blood everywhere... gas, stomp, fades blinking, and in the distance... that large ugly hive.. which must fall... (Funner than heavy stomp stomping in ahd HMGIN THE **** OUT OF EVERYTHING)
2. Marines getting pwned on thier way to the start hive (i dotn spawncamp), and my strat starts OFF exactly like any other strat (armory, 1-2 ip) cap res... bla bla bla.. i dont start amassing ip's until, say... the 6-10 minute mark (for the second hive assault) so this entire point is invalid, as it applies equally to every strat, and i never made any claim that my strat can compensate for something like this (Note: I get the phase gate up at the start hive AFTER ive secured resnodes and have upgrades, NEVER before the 6-10 min mark)
3. Marines throwing themselves into hive room.. getting boned...lack of rt's means no medspam
Thing is, i usualyl have 3-5 RT and as ive stated repeatedly, the IP rushing section doesent ocme in until 2nd hive time (6-10 minutes) at which point i feel the IP's are more valuable than thier res equivalent in HA/HMG's or similar... With armor 3 (ill have it by 8 min EVERY game) the marines last long enough to do some damage, and yea ill drop medspam occasionally (wow am i good at medspam...lol) most of the time the constant stream of marines means it doesent matter, they just kill a few aliens, empty a bit into the hive... die, spawn... repeat..... ALiens dont spawn fast enought to keep up, so it soon becomes like 2-3 higher life form aliens verses the entire marine team and the 2 skulks that spawn at a time (assuming 2 hives)
4. I cap rt's.. dont defend them.. it doesent matter... most games i dont even lockdown a hive... 2-3 marine squads patrolling resnodes and constantly rebuilding ones that go down and protecting em gives me the res i need (5 min of 5 nodes is ALL i need) for most upgrades, and the IP's i need (adding in RFK) once ive started the rush on the 2nd hive... its endgame right there... nothing else matters...
To quote you directly "What about the insane amounts of RFK you're giving them? What about the map-critical locations which you are <b>literally handing to the other team on a silver platter</b>."
Umm... get the 2nd hive down... i dont give a **** if they have double, or every other node on the map.... i dont freaking care... AT ALL..... give them whatever the hell they want... once the hives are down... u win... regardless of whether the aliens ahev 1 or 100 res nodes....... i HAVE had instances where i will have to pull this off 8-10 times a game simply BECAUSE i dont lockdown hievs (and as a result they keep getting put back up), and it does lengthen the game, but its absolutely the best games ever (ask anyone who has been in one) because it keeps the feeling that "the tide could turn at any second" and adrenaline rushes... ect.....
I know ive defended many of these before, but ur right, i wasnt always clear... i hope this clears it up.....
Thing is...... i can think up many reasons why "conventional" strats can fail
Onos stomp
Good lerks gassing
Cloaked skulks waiting
Good fades tearing marines apart bit by bit...
All of these are valid arguments, except for 2 reasons...
1. While effective at countering the established customary HA/HMG strat, thye do not do it well enough to totally counter the strat enough to effectively argue the strat countered by them
2. We all know from experience that the HA/HMG strat is sucessful, so we automatically say reason 1..... just because we know the strat works
The exact opposite happens for new strats....
Since you dont know it works... you automatically think of and OVER EXAGGERATE counters.....
Try the strat... simple as that... try it until you can make it work... then you will understand how powerful it really is (NOT THE END ALL BE ALL STRAT, but highly effective....
I believe the end all be all strat IS HA/HMG (provided decent marines)... but to me... this automatically makes it not fun... simply because the common mindset in HA/HMG games is OMG HEAVIES WE WIN... or OMG HEAVIES we lose (alien point of view)
My games... are 30min-2.5 hrs of constant WHO IS GOING TO WIN (provided the aliens are decent... else i get 10-20 min BG BG BG games...
Im just lookin for fun... here is a fun strat that is effective... that is all :-P
@ spacejesus... i dont mean to offend you... if that is how my post appears im sorry... im just civily disputing your arguments... anything else youd care to discuss on this matter... im completely open minded... as you are the first person to post a relatively concise and clear thought out rebuttal to my strat... so im happy to answer... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~Jason
Okay, so you start the game normally, IP/Armory/Arms
push and cap rt's, and get about 4-5.
Now, this is going to be the 4 minute mark (give or take). So now you do what until 6 minutes?
anyway, at about 4:30 or 5:00 you're gonna have a pair of fades, possibly 3. And how exactly do you plan on killing these fades? By throwing a1/w1 LA marines at them? they'll get ripped to shreds easily. Even easier at the 6-7 min mark when hive2 is up.
But, to use your own words <!--QuoteBegin-SDJASON+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i dont start amassing ip's until, say... the 6-10 minute mark (for the second hive assault)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like, wth?
after 6-8 mins you're gonna be dead or dying unless you drop hmg/shotguns and successfully rush the second hive. You'll have fades and lerks umbra-owning your team regardless of how many IPs you have.
And anyway, how are you planning to get to the hive? PG? It'll get stomp spammed and anyone that comes through it will die to a barrage of swipes and bites before they realise whats on the other side.
Walking is hardly any better as spore will weaken your armour and even if you weld you're only gonna have like half of your squad at worst ready to engage that fade for the second or two that it blinks in and bones one of your squad.
Yeah, as an FYI you should never lockdown a hive, ever. RT and PG is the only thing you need. evar. Maybe elec the RT but thats all.
And if you think the HA train is commonly used in competetive play you've obviously not seen many matches. I have yet to see a decent match which has resorted to HA training.
High-level matches are won with LA rushes with a mixture of SG's and HMG's. HA is incredibly rarely utilised (afaik).
And for 200 res you could get like ... 10 HMG/welder combo's. That's a lot of firepower even at w2. Especially with cats <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Someone show me that if you have 9 dead rines and 9 built ips that they will all spawn at once.....
id invite you to come on the NSarmslab Server, G4B2S server, or Texas(HK) server, these are the ones i most frequent... and if im on.... ask me to comm.. most people on will support my strat, as they have seen it work in the past....
Ill show you a godawful bloodbath, and yet... you WILL spawn back every 10 seconds.......
~Jason
IT basically sums it all up, so ill just post it without any explanation whatsoever
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ugh, I'm not going to bother trying to combat "Theorycraft."
All I have to say is that you should test it before you doubt it.
If you can get enough people together for a test, I can post a demo of it working. =P (As long as megaworm isn't down.)
People on a regular basis claim strats don't work or other propoganda. Point is they never test it.
Hell, I used rifle/casters and climbed very high rank ladder on WC3. Back when everyone said rifles and casters suck. Now look at the game. Rifles/Caster is basic cookie cutter. Everyone does it!
Takes the public TOO long to realize a good strategy when it comes around. All they do is shoot the messenger.
If you want to believe that this strat won't work. By all means keep thinking that. More power to those with open minds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->