<!--QuoteBegin-K9black+Oct 31 2004, 07:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (K9black @ Oct 31 2004, 07:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> fun! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My main goal when i comm.... second to nothing... ABOVE WINNING.... :-P
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> read his post, guys. Youre all having a knee-jerk reaction to the whole simulation shooter thing. Hes not talking about omg-dirt-in-mah-gun realism, hes talking about atmosphere.
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game...
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> read his post, guys. Youre all having a knee-jerk reaction to the whole simulation shooter thing. Hes not talking about omg-dirt-in-mah-gun realism, hes talking about atmosphere.
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> bingo.
and that's why 1.04 is and always will be considered the best version by some: the atmosphere hadn't worn down yet. =/
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> read his post, guys. Youre all having a knee-jerk reaction to the whole simulation shooter thing. Hes not talking about omg-dirt-in-mah-gun realism, hes talking about atmosphere.
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Read his examples. They are all perfectly possible in a multiplayer environment
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Nov 1 2004, 05:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Nov 1 2004, 05:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> read his post, guys. Youre all having a knee-jerk reaction to the whole simulation shooter thing. Hes not talking about omg-dirt-in-mah-gun realism, hes talking about atmosphere.
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read his examples. They are all perfectly possible in a multiplayer environment <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes I love playing a game where I can't see skulks until they are in my face! DAMN GAMMAHACKERS!!
EVERYTHING PITCH BLACK = ATMOSPHERE WIN YES SO FUN
listen to yourself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 31 2004, 08:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 31 2004, 08:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> read his post, guys. Youre all having a knee-jerk reaction to the whole simulation shooter thing. Hes not talking about omg-dirt-in-mah-gun realism, hes talking about atmosphere.
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He did talk about atmosphere yes, something which is hardly mutually exclusive to arcade games (look at Doom3 for an excellent example of an arcade game with atmosphere).
He also talked about changing movement and gameplay which is something we do seem to be strongly against (glad its not just me, was scared I was going to get shouted down and that NS would be turned into Operation Flashpoint with aliens).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Evo: Heh, all these "REALISM SUX OMRG FTW!!" people are funny. The just don't know what they're missing! I know its easy for a bad "sim" to ruin your impression of the genre, but every once in a while you'll stumble onto a good, solid sim. One that puts you "there", in the action, in the moment in a way that no arcade game could ever possibly hope to do. That little piece of gaming magic is a wonderful thing to experience, and a terrible thing to brush aside with an ignorant snort. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've stumbled on to some good games in my time, my friends have good (if varied) tastes in games and I've played some of the highest rated and most critically acclaimed sims going (who hasn't really?) and each time I've played a few levels and, yeah its been ok, killed some time etc. If there is a multiplayer mode then I can even call it fun. However I can't compare it to the elation you feel as you race out of the enemy base with the flag, do some incredible leap across a map or survive against incredible odds, jumping over missiles and other equally ludicrous feats.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 1 2004, 11:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 11:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Nov 1 2004, 05:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Nov 1 2004, 05:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> read his post, guys. Youre all having a knee-jerk reaction to the whole simulation shooter thing. Hes not talking about omg-dirt-in-mah-gun realism, hes talking about atmosphere.
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read his examples. They are all perfectly possible in a multiplayer environment <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes I love playing a game where I can't see skulks until they are in my face! DAMN GAMMAHACKERS!!
EVERYTHING PITCH BLACK = ATMOSPHERE WIN YES SO FUN
listen to yourself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No one said anything about pitch black. Yes, his whole cant-see-them-till-in-face bit is exaggerated, but ns maps really shouldnt be ns_veil bright.
And you still havent shown how this isnt possible in a multiplayer game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Nov 1 2004, 09:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Nov 1 2004, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 1 2004, 11:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 11:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Nov 1 2004, 05:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Nov 1 2004, 05:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> read his post, guys. Youre all having a knee-jerk reaction to the whole simulation shooter thing. Hes not talking about omg-dirt-in-mah-gun realism, hes talking about atmosphere.
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read his examples. They are all perfectly possible in a multiplayer environment <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes I love playing a game where I can't see skulks until they are in my face! DAMN GAMMAHACKERS!!
EVERYTHING PITCH BLACK = ATMOSPHERE WIN YES SO FUN
listen to yourself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one said anything about pitch black. Yes, his whole cant-see-them-till-in-face bit is exaggerated, but ns maps really shouldnt be ns_veil bright.
And you still havent shown how this isnt possible in a multiplayer game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> because after you play the same map 100-200 times, you know everything. All the hiding spots, quirks, etc. Skulks aren't scary at all after you've seen thousands of them. Seriously, it just isn't possible unless you somehow randomly generate the map each time you play, and even then, I'd never get scared cuz a skulk pops out.
'atmosphere' is way overrated anyway. this little thing called 'gameplay' is much more important.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 1 2004, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Nov 1 2004, 09:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Nov 1 2004, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 1 2004, 11:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 11:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Nov 1 2004, 05:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Nov 1 2004, 05:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ Oct 31 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> read his post, guys. Youre all having a knee-jerk reaction to the whole simulation shooter thing. Hes not talking about omg-dirt-in-mah-gun realism, hes talking about atmosphere.
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read his examples. They are all perfectly possible in a multiplayer environment <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes I love playing a game where I can't see skulks until they are in my face! DAMN GAMMAHACKERS!!
EVERYTHING PITCH BLACK = ATMOSPHERE WIN YES SO FUN
listen to yourself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one said anything about pitch black. Yes, his whole cant-see-them-till-in-face bit is exaggerated, but ns maps really shouldnt be ns_veil bright.
And you still havent shown how this isnt possible in a multiplayer game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> because after you play the same map 100-200 times, you know everything. All the hiding spots, quirks, etc. Skulks aren't scary at all after you've seen thousands of them. Seriously, it just isn't possible unless you somehow randomly generate the map each time you play, and even then, I'd never get scared cuz a skulk pops out.
'atmosphere' is way overrated anyway. this little thing called 'gameplay' is much more important. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesnt matter how many times you see it. If some place or thing has atmosphere, its got atmosphere.
Also, atmosphere and gameplay can coexist. I dont see why you think the presence of one will remove the other.
Go on, try again. This time, dont use the same old arguements <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This quote is getting a little lengthy so I'll just reply w/o quoting.
"It doesnt matter how many times you see it. If some place or thing has atmosphere, its got atmosphere."
I guess we disagree. After I've run through bast 100 times, I don't feel any atmosphere at all. Shrug. I really don't think lasting atmosphere is possible in a game where you constantly play on the same ~5-10 maps.
"Also, atmosphere and gameplay can coexist. I dont see why you think the presence of one will remove the other."
Maybe we have different definitions of gameplay then. I didn't consider the old ns_bast to have good gameplay (yet everyone said "OMG SUPER COOL ATMOSPHERE"). I don't think they can cooexist. Atmosphere is great for a single player game but it has no purpose in a multiplayer skill-based game.
"Go on, try again. This time, dont use the same old arguements"
Let me return the insult: Atmosphere is for newbies who like to run around and feel like they are a part of something. Gameplay is for players who like to play skilled games.
I'm so sick of this "atmosphere" garbage. Don't complain about it. After running through a map 5 bazillion times, it will no longer have 'atmosphere'. OH DEAR GOD.
Why don't we fix the main problems with NS before we start whining about atmosphere? I can name at least 10 things that should happen before we talk about atmosphere.
"I guess we disagree. After I've run through bast 100 times, I don't feel any atmosphere at all. Shrug. I really don't think lasting atmosphere is possible in a game where you constantly play on the same ~5-10 maps."
Yea. I dont think we can convince each other on this. I feel that yes, the map does begin to look boring, but it will always have the same feel to it.
ns_bast is just a poor example. Its universally agreed that the map has problems gameplay-wise. Think about it this way. Pick your favourite gameplay map (err..I dunno, tanith/veil/eclipse?), do whatever needs to be done to make it, to quote you quoting 'them', "OMG ATMOSPHERIC". Now, how would the gameplay on these maps be hurt? As long as you keep a layout that works, I dont see how the gameplay would be b0rkened.
I believe the problem lies in how the map was designed. I remember hearing KFS talking about how he kept the gameplay in mind when designing eclipse/veil. Thats what makes it work. On the other hand, Im guessing Relic(?) made bast by just looking at it and going by gut instinct. So if someone started off by making the Best Design Evar , then secks it up, wouldnt this achieve both good "OMG ATMOSPHERE" and gameplay at the same time?
I do agree there are more important issues at hand, with balance scaling with number of players being #1 imho.
x5 I think thats half the point. Its got some great SCI-FI sim elements in it, and a load of arcade elements. I was asking the question to see how people wanted the game to move forward.
A lot of people have said they like the movement, I suppose it can be fun bouncing around, its just infuriating because its hard enough as it is to get close to marines without them doing 5ft backflips.
Atmosphear last as long as you want it to last. I may not get scared by a skulk but i've jumped a few times when i've been caught off guard. Imagine assaulting a hive, skulks pouring around corners, slime dripping off the walls, the lights are on the frizz due to infestation, the hive is groaning as you shoot it and theres this voice in your ear shooting move soldier damnit!
Atmosphear comes when the game is played as it should be with teamwork, you get drawn in. That can easily be added to and to dismiss it will alienate a lot of people.
Arcade games do not generaly concentrate on this, they tend towards more colour and sexy looking graphics.
When I suggested realism so many people took it to a massive extreme. I'm not suggesting for a moment
"you can trip over dead skulks and graze your knee then limp around until you respawn." @egis
that would just be silly. But realism or if you like pseudo realism can make a game feel more complete.
I think the misunderstanding here is that "sim" or "realism" does not mean 100% life like. How the hell do we know what will be possible in 200 years or whatever anyway. We don't but we have something to base it on. Anyway my rants never produce anything worth reading so nn =0
Comments
For a singleplayer game I'd rather have a sim though, but I never play those anyway.
Its done so well do when you get hit by bullets it actually feels like your being forced back..
Would add alot ot NS imho.
Devs can move that slider anywhere between Simulation to Arcade, just keep teamplay in center of focus.
Make teamplay the point in NS and not just some fun side-feature.
<!--emo&::tsa::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tsa.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tsa.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My main goal when i comm.... second to nothing... ABOVE WINNING.... :-P
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game...
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
bingo.
and that's why 1.04 is and always will be considered the best version by some: the atmosphere hadn't worn down yet. =/
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read his examples. They are all perfectly possible in a multiplayer environment
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read his examples. They are all perfectly possible in a multiplayer environment <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes I love playing a game where I can't see skulks until they are in my face! DAMN GAMMAHACKERS!!
EVERYTHING PITCH BLACK = ATMOSPHERE WIN YES SO FUN
listen to yourself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He did talk about atmosphere yes, something which is hardly mutually exclusive to arcade games (look at Doom3 for an excellent example of an arcade game with atmosphere).
He also talked about changing movement and gameplay which is something we do seem to be strongly against (glad its not just me, was scared I was going to get shouted down and that NS would be turned into Operation Flashpoint with aliens).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Evo: Heh, all these "REALISM SUX OMRG FTW!!" people are funny. The just don't know what they're missing! I know its easy for a bad "sim" to ruin your impression of the genre, but every once in a while you'll stumble onto a good, solid sim. One that puts you "there", in the action, in the moment in a way that no arcade game could ever possibly hope to do. That little piece of gaming magic is a wonderful thing to experience, and a terrible thing to brush aside with an ignorant snort. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've stumbled on to some good games in my time, my friends have good (if varied) tastes in games and I've played some of the highest rated and most critically acclaimed sims going (who hasn't really?) and each time I've played a few levels and, yeah its been ok, killed some time etc. If there is a multiplayer mode then I can even call it fun. However I can't compare it to the elation you feel as you race out of the enemy base with the flag, do some incredible leap across a map or survive against incredible odds, jumping over missiles and other equally ludicrous feats.
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read his examples. They are all perfectly possible in a multiplayer environment <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes I love playing a game where I can't see skulks until they are in my face! DAMN GAMMAHACKERS!!
EVERYTHING PITCH BLACK = ATMOSPHERE WIN YES SO FUN
listen to yourself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one said anything about pitch black. Yes, his whole cant-see-them-till-in-face bit is exaggerated, but ns maps really shouldnt be ns_veil bright.
And you still havent shown how this isnt possible in a multiplayer game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read his examples. They are all perfectly possible in a multiplayer environment <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes I love playing a game where I can't see skulks until they are in my face! DAMN GAMMAHACKERS!!
EVERYTHING PITCH BLACK = ATMOSPHERE WIN YES SO FUN
listen to yourself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one said anything about pitch black. Yes, his whole cant-see-them-till-in-face bit is exaggerated, but ns maps really shouldnt be ns_veil bright.
And you still havent shown how this isnt possible in a multiplayer game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
because after you play the same map 100-200 times, you know everything. All the hiding spots, quirks, etc. Skulks aren't scary at all after you've seen thousands of them. Seriously, it just isn't possible unless you somehow randomly generate the map each time you play, and even then, I'd never get scared cuz a skulk pops out.
'atmosphere' is way overrated anyway. this little thing called 'gameplay' is much more important.
I agree with what he said. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't have lasting atmosphere in a multiplayer game... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read his examples. They are all perfectly possible in a multiplayer environment <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes I love playing a game where I can't see skulks until they are in my face! DAMN GAMMAHACKERS!!
EVERYTHING PITCH BLACK = ATMOSPHERE WIN YES SO FUN
listen to yourself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one said anything about pitch black. Yes, his whole cant-see-them-till-in-face bit is exaggerated, but ns maps really shouldnt be ns_veil bright.
And you still havent shown how this isnt possible in a multiplayer game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because after you play the same map 100-200 times, you know everything. All the hiding spots, quirks, etc. Skulks aren't scary at all after you've seen thousands of them. Seriously, it just isn't possible unless you somehow randomly generate the map each time you play, and even then, I'd never get scared cuz a skulk pops out.
'atmosphere' is way overrated anyway. this little thing called 'gameplay' is much more important. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesnt matter how many times you see it. If some place or thing has atmosphere, its got atmosphere.
Also, atmosphere and gameplay can coexist. I dont see why you think the presence of one will remove the other.
Go on, try again. This time, dont use the same old arguements <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"It doesnt matter how many times you see it. If some place or thing has atmosphere, its got atmosphere."
I guess we disagree. After I've run through bast 100 times, I don't feel any atmosphere at all. Shrug. I really don't think lasting atmosphere is possible in a game where you constantly play on the same ~5-10 maps.
"Also, atmosphere and gameplay can coexist. I dont see why you think the presence of one will remove the other."
Maybe we have different definitions of gameplay then. I didn't consider the old ns_bast to have good gameplay (yet everyone said "OMG SUPER COOL ATMOSPHERE"). I don't think they can cooexist. Atmosphere is great for a single player game but it has no purpose in a multiplayer skill-based game.
"Go on, try again. This time, dont use the same old arguements"
Let me return the insult: Atmosphere is for newbies who like to run around and feel like they are a part of something. Gameplay is for players who like to play skilled games.
I'm so sick of this "atmosphere" garbage. Don't complain about it. After running through a map 5 bazillion times, it will no longer have 'atmosphere'. OH DEAR GOD.
Why don't we fix the main problems with NS before we start whining about atmosphere? I can name at least 10 things that should happen before we talk about atmosphere.
Yea. I dont think we can convince each other on this. I feel that yes, the map does begin to look boring, but it will always have the same feel to it.
ns_bast is just a poor example. Its universally agreed that the map has problems gameplay-wise. Think about it this way. Pick your favourite gameplay map (err..I dunno, tanith/veil/eclipse?), do whatever needs to be done to make it, to quote you quoting 'them', "OMG ATMOSPHERIC". Now, how would the gameplay on these maps be hurt? As long as you keep a layout that works, I dont see how the gameplay would be b0rkened.
I believe the problem lies in how the map was designed. I remember hearing KFS talking about how he kept the gameplay in mind when designing eclipse/veil. Thats what makes it work. On the other hand, Im guessing Relic(?) made bast by just looking at it and going by gut instinct. So if someone started off by making the Best Design Evar , then secks it up, wouldnt this achieve both good "OMG ATMOSPHERE" and gameplay at the same time?
I do agree there are more important issues at hand, with balance scaling with number of players being #1 imho.
NS is neither. Most FPS games are neither.
A lot of people have said they like the movement, I suppose it can be fun bouncing around, its just infuriating because its hard enough as it is to get close to marines without them doing 5ft backflips.
Atmosphear last as long as you want it to last. I may not get scared by a skulk but i've jumped a few times when i've been caught off guard. Imagine assaulting a hive, skulks pouring around corners, slime dripping off the walls, the lights are on the frizz due to infestation, the hive is groaning as you shoot it and theres this voice in your ear shooting move soldier damnit!
Atmosphear comes when the game is played as it should be with teamwork, you get drawn in. That can easily be added to and to dismiss it will alienate a lot of people.
Arcade games do not generaly concentrate on this, they tend towards more colour and sexy looking graphics.
When I suggested realism so many people took it to a massive extreme. I'm not suggesting for a moment
"you can trip over dead skulks and graze your knee then limp around until you respawn." @egis
that would just be silly. But realism or if you like pseudo realism can make a game feel more complete.
I think the misunderstanding here is that "sim" or "realism" does not mean 100% life like. How the hell do we know what will be possible in 200 years or whatever anyway. We don't but we have something to base it on. Anyway my rants never produce anything worth reading so nn =0