Mc>sc>dc

GneralasGneralas Join Date: 2004-01-20 Member: 25523Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Is it possible to win?</div> Is it possible for the aliens to win if they get Movement Chambers then Sensory Chambers then Defence Chambers (if they last that long).
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Comments

  • pip1pip1 Join Date: 2004-09-06 Member: 31430Members
    nothing's imposibble


    ( :p )
  • kolokolkolokol Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9166Members
    Only if you outclass the other team by a long way...not to mention having the most godlike skulks and fades ever seen.
    Imo mc's allow fleeing fades to head for the nearest vent and mc home. This makes them very much one hit wonders. This means skulks will have to do their bit to stop groups. If you manage all this and make it to second hive and sc's you are still in exactly the same situation. Lets face it cloaking may as well not exist, sof is useful but won't tell you anything you don't know already, so were left with the only upgrade that is useful for killing marines...focus. With focus for your fades your still in the same boat as at the start of the game because you still can't kill in one swipe as marines will have plenty of armour. About your only chance is to put up the hive under an sc. For obvious reasons this is unreliable.
    In short mc sc dc is possible but only with a godlike alien team...which to be fair would probably have won alot more easily with dc mc.
  • coriscoris Join Date: 2003-07-08 Member: 18034Members, Constellation
    MCs are amazing for defending the building second hive, my clan and lots of other clans use it all the time.

    Focus fades and skulks are an extremly powerful enemy to combat, and SoF lerks are great for scouting!
  • AzkarAzkar Join Date: 2003-07-16 Member: 18204Members, Constellation
    MCs are amazing for any alien class

    so yes, I dont see why not?

    DCs are worthless.
  • WildChickenWildChicken Join Date: 2004-08-25 Member: 30891Members, Constellation
    It does require some more focus on the gorge as a healer, not just a builder. Having to go all the way back to the hive every time you go down to 50% is stupid. With some good gorges, who don't mind being on the front line, you can pull this off. I've seen it done a few times, although most people rather go for DC on the second hive instead of SC.
    MC first hive > You
  • GneralasGneralas Join Date: 2004-01-20 Member: 25523Members
    If the teams are of equal skill, the aliens would have no chance of winning. Correct?
  • MichaelMichael Join Date: 2004-10-22 Member: 32400Members
    It could work with teams of equal skill it just depends on the comm and wether the aliens cooperate and use their abilities right. Besides most comms expect D-M-S build order so it will throw them off the first time you use it.
  • NGENGE Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22443Members
    I've seen it win against compitant clans, but it's usually due to the surprise factor. It won't affect build order at all, but an early celerity lerk filling in for fades can be devistating if the lerk is amazing.

    Still not as powerful as DMS tends to be though.
  • kolokolkolokol Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9166Members
    Tbh we could really use something that would allow you to use mcs to teleport to the building hive on pubs. ..ie without ff.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    MC > SC > DC?
    easy to do.

    I mean, skulks go faster or with more silence. Rines can't react without MT. Gorges have adren to healspam, or celerity to speedup movement. (but we have bhop, so adren ppl)

    Fade + celerity = ownage. Lerks can gasspam alot.

    You can already own the map. MCs here and there for fast hive transport, back to the hive, or going to a new attacked hive. adren upgrades etc.. and speed upgrades (celerity mean map control)

    SC means more map dominance. You got speed and silence. Now the other part. attackpower (focus), intelligance (SOF) or good with silence = claok. make a few SC networks. Rines don't know what hits em.

    Sure, I see you shout.. MT for MC, armor for SC. But anything has a counter. point is, if your team aint complete retards they can combine both chambers strengths and dominate the map.

    DC is for newbies who can't dominate the map, so who have to get the map back by healing powers. With MC/SC you don't need to get the map back, you got it.
  • CartiCarti Join Date: 2003-07-12 Member: 18099Members, Constellation
    You'd need a very dedicated team and 2/3 gorges who are going to heal skulks around the map for a start.

    An early hive is always best too.
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
    A good coordinated team could do it.

    Adren spamheal gorges, pile of skulks with silence/focus, bitespam everywhere and then dropping a hive.

    You'd need to know what everyone else is doing, because you'd need 2 gorges, a lerk, and everyone else as skulk, and at the same time be able to drop a second hive AND 6 chambers in total.
  • j3stj3st Join Date: 2004-06-28 Member: 29602Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Azkar+Oct 30 2004, 08:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Azkar @ Oct 30 2004, 08:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> DCs are worthless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • UzguzUzguz Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17016Members, Constellation
    As others have said, you <b><i>could</i></b> do it (at a pinch) with extraordinary communication and teamwork, but you'd be relying fairly heavily on the element of surprise. The idea of a Movement+Sensory-dominated map is very appealing, but achieving it is a substantially more involved task than its proponents seem to imply.

    Possible as it may be, you're probably better off going for the Defence Chamber at the second Hive. The raw grunt of a Defence+Movement-upgraded fighting force can't be denied, but the Movement Chamber offers better services at the first Hive, making MDS preferrable over DMS; however, I hate to say it, but Sensory's too much of a gamble. If you do take it, all I can do is bid you good fortune - you'll likely need it.

    As a side-note:
    <!--QuoteBegin-Azkar+Oct 30 2004, 08:15AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Azkar @ Oct 30 2004, 08:15AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->DCs are worthless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Not worthless, but overrated perhaps.
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-D.C. Darkling+Oct 30 2004, 04:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (D.C. Darkling @ Oct 30 2004, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MC > SC > DC?
    easy to do.

    I mean, skulks go faster or with more silence. Rines can't react without MT. Gorges have adren to healspam, or celerity to speedup movement. (but we have bhop, so adren ppl)

    Fade + celerity = ownage. Lerks can gasspam alot.

    You can already own the map. MCs here and there for fast hive transport, back to the hive, or going to a new attacked hive. adren upgrades etc.. and speed upgrades (celerity mean map control)

    SC means more map dominance. You got speed and silence. Now the other part. attackpower (focus), intelligance (SOF) or good with silence = claok. make a few SC networks. Rines don't know what hits em.

    Sure, I see you shout.. MT for MC, armor for SC. But anything has a counter. point is, if your team aint complete retards they can combine both chambers strengths and dominate the map.

    DC is for newbies who can't dominate the map, so who have to get the map back by healing powers. With MC/SC you don't need to get the map back, you got it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    THIS man knows where its at.
  • AlkillerAlkiller Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28847Members
    MC is a pretty popular first chamber for clanners, but that's partly because you can attack the hive while it's building and your entire team can movement in and save it (Happened to me in a scrim vs obs, in a 6v6 game all of a sudden 2 fades a lerk and 2 skulks movement in after the gorge spat at the hive).
  • AngelSaphireAngelSaphire Join Date: 2004-10-20 Member: 32374Members
    I like mcs too but dc is not useless, it can save countless aliens from death <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
    MC first is very viable because most players will logically go for armour ups. That means you don't have to worry about upgraded weaps, which means you can get a lot of use out of silence, adren, celer. Celer skulks with a bit of skill are awesome, silence ambushers are terrifying, and an adren lerk at game start (providing he's not a smacktard) means those armour ups aren't going to be as useful as expected. MC is excellent off the bat if you've any skill, midgame its handy because of increased speed and attacks, endgame is less useful because you'be basically won.

    DC first puts you more on less on an even footing with Marines, but its very reactive. There's not much you can get offensively out of DC. Regen is nice but you're usually dead or have to run off to heal. Redeem is pretty pointless for a lower evolution, cara is probably the most useful but needs a nearby DC or gorge to make it reaaaaally useful. All 3 upgrades are more useful mid-end game where you have EXPENSIVE evolutions and you're facing upgraded bang bangs.


    SC first relies on sheer unmitigated aggression. Focus kills everything, and will be your upgrade of choice. SoF is great for aliens that lack any real benefit from focus - step up the spumbra lerk. Cloaking is nice for ambushers but most players will still see you (its not hard to spot an alien considering you're usually LISTENING for them). At game start its handy for countering armour upgrades or phase rushes, mid game its handy for countering armour upgrades (few phase rushes midgame), and endgame its handy for finding relocations, stragglers, and countering armour upgrades.



    So its not hard to see why MC first is probably the most logical choice. TBH I would go MC first every time, and if we were humiliating the rines I'd put a case forward for SC at hive 2. MC/SC combos of silent cloaked aliens are very appealing, as are celerity focus skulks... but these things rely on your skill outweighing marine skill. The other thing is that lacking DC your boys will need some damn fine gorges.

    Why? Gorges will be adren healing your hives, and ideally going near the front lines to drop MC. These MC can be used on FF servers to teleport your advance skulks back to the hive in case of a rush since an alien can bite the hive so it gets priority (on a server without FF you can still do this but only when the hive is under direct attack).

    However as most people have stated this is very risky and really relies on skill and teamwork. If you don't have BOTH then you need to consider a less risky chamber selection. MC-DC-SC is going to be on the more civilised pub server, but if you team are totally deficit then unfortunately you're stuck with DC first... which is just horribly dull.
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
    MCs do give you great abilities, and teleporting to a building hive that's under attack can save a game, but you still face a rather large problem. Namely, your capacity to attack marine fortifications.

    If a com sees MCs first, he'll most likely go for a quick two hive lockdown, knowing that if he pulls it off, the alien team has essentially zero chance of breaking it. Celerity fades and skulks are great for taking out lower level marines, but throw some shotguns or hmgs into the mix, backed up by turrets, electrification, and mines, and your higher lifeforms will have a very tough time breaking that base with just MCs. True, adren gorges healing on the front lines help, but they're extreamly vunerable to attack. Plus you face the problem of taking out electrified res nodes: yes, an adren gorge and a skulk can do it, but it's simply easier for a regen Fade to do the job. A gorge sitting there healing a chomping skulk is essentially dead weight, whereas a regen Fade can take out squads of LA-LMG marines with ease.

    This isn't to say DMS is the be all and end all. Simply that it's the safest route to take. With stellar teamwork and excellent skills, an alien team with MCs or SCs first can deny the map to the marines and prevent them from controlling the map. However, a marine team of equal skill commanded well is going to be able to control at least some of the map outside their spawn. The alien team has to factor in that the marines are, in all likihood, going to capture and hold at least 1 hive location, and that a large portion of the game is going to be played out at the 2 hive level. One chamber has to miss out. Sensory offers very little past the early game, whilst defense gives your higher lifeforms the much needed edge they need to combat medium to top teir marines. Movement allows you to transport between your spawn points, and gives you upgrades that are usful right through the game (ok, maybe not silence).

    Hence given the current makeup of the game, you'll be looking at DCs and MCs for your two chambers. That's the safest choice, the one that gives you the best chance of success. Now to determine which to go first. MCs are nice, but the clincher is that DCs provide you with insurance; if you're facing a 2 hive lockdown, DCs and only DCs give you a chance to break it. MCs rely on you denying enough of the map to the marines so that they can't 2 hive lock you. It's a risky move to take. The marines can and will move where they choose early on, and sooner or later you're going to have to dig them out.

    It is good to see people thinking outside the DMS mindset. But let's face it: given the structure of the game, DMS is here to stay, barring unchaining or a fundamental reworking of the entire game.
  • Special_KSpecial_K Join Date: 2003-04-19 Member: 15637Members, Constellation
    If we're talking competetive, as long as you have good skulks and excellent communication you can pull it off. If you're one of the clans that relies heavily on your early regen fades to pull off wins, it'll take some practice to get it to work.

    If we're talking pubs, it'll be a disaster.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    just don't get 2 hive locked down.
    besides, MC means SPEED which means you can recon FAST. Go check those hives
  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
    silence basicly forces the commander to upgrade MT... but its great fun at first.

    I remember when i thought a silenced fade was unstoppable... and it is, even if marines have MT. But when it comes to assaulting Rine positions (which is what you're supposed to do) it fails miserably. Aliens can't afford to have a fade do skulk work <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    MC first is very skulk dependant... and is best used with fast devastating attacks on unupgraded rines to halt their expansion while you tech up get the real combat chamber (DC derrrr).
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
    Personally I think MC or SC are better for a skulk blitz than DC. Now it just depends of you want to have focus-cloak-SoF or silence-celerity-adren. If SC chambers are placed well (meaning spread around the map in strategic locations to hide your teammates when the marines move though that area) it can be devastating.

    MC --> SC --> DC

    Isn't good if you have idiots on your team, but if you're with some good players who can fight well and teamwork well (communication primarily) then having SC and MC as your starting upgrades is perfect for a blitz victory. Even if the marines relocate to a hive, build an obs, and start reseaching MT, they are spending lots of res thay could be spent on upgrading the armory or getting arms lab upgrades. In the meantime you countinue routin gthem in the field and as long as you can prevent a 2 hive lock down and get up that 2nd hive you'll get another chamber type and ability upgrades when the marines finally get that motion tracking it's too late, they've lost most of the map and guess what: Res Nodes matter. IF you keep the enemy from having resources and have plenty of your own, it's really rather easy to out pace them in the upgrades. (they still won't have any upgrades and you'll have 2H motile units)

    Besides, good teamowrk with healspray can eliminate mod of the need for regeneration.
  • RecoupRecoup Join Date: 2004-04-25 Member: 28195Members
    SC Matches are so damn fun. I know that early fade guys get ****, but it sures hell makes the game more interesting and more fun when I play. We've lost numerous times to SC aliens, and the experience was interesting.
  • SovereignSovereign Join Date: 2004-10-31 Member: 32563Members
    mc's are the best man, in combat i always get mc upgrades.

    in classic. getting celerity or silent can be very useful if u know how to be a good skulk, carapace is a bit weak really imo.

    <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • mirrodinmirrodin Join Date: 2004-06-29 Member: 29621Members
    Dc = good for high lifeforms

    Mc / Sc = good for lower three lifeforms.

    Mc, Sc and Dc = BEST

    Thus unchained servers win...
  • fried_ricefried_rice Join Date: 2004-09-10 Member: 31582Banned
    edited November 2004
    i think in a lot of strat games, "broken" builds, such as mc/sc first or whatever, work only when the opposing team/player starts off in a certain way (lets say some standard build that everyone knows about) and then proceeds to finish the game off in that manner. These "broken" builds generally work in such a way as to counter that specific strategy that the opposing team is doing and nothing else.

    For instance, if the commander figures out that the alien team is dropping sensory chambers first, then the logical approach to stopping the other team would be either to break away from the tradition build (which is like 1 ip->arms lab-> armor1->armory then tinker from there) and drop an obs or arms lab and do some sensible upgrades. Then proceed to drop an obs at every hive + do a lockdown and electrify everything like mad (like what happened to my team in a pub once <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).

    Generally though, in my opinion, aliens don't really have much variety in their strats because the chambers seem to offer only a fixed build order (dc first, then mc and sc last). Look at it this way (and this depends on how good the comm is)...if the aliens go SC first, the rines will prolly do armor 1; MC, obs+motion tracking; DC, standard build (from that point on it depends entirely on how well the marine team + commander does).

    The marines have so many ways to adapt because of all the different structures/weapons/upgrades there are whereas the aliens can only get, what i would deem mostly useless until they get a second or third hive, weak upgrades like silence (which i hardly see people use and which fails <b>miserably</b> in clan matches as an initial upgrade) or redemption (no one ever gets this because it's based on odds which seem to be always against me <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
  • j3stj3st Join Date: 2004-06-28 Member: 29602Members
    in 90% of decent pubs dcs are dropped first i think mainly because the gorges are too scared to go up to the battlefield to heal the fades and others where they are <b><i>supposed</i></b> to. with two gorges near the fade, the fade can easily enjoy the benefits of mcs and dcs (regen) with the mc chamber first.
  • tuutti2tuutti2 Join Date: 2004-02-11 Member: 26392Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-j3st+Nov 5 2004, 03:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (j3st @ Nov 5 2004, 03:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->with two gorges near the fade, the fade can easily enjoy the benefits of mcs and dcs (regen) with the mc chamber first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If you have DCs, those two gorges would be doing something more useful like building rts or killing marines/rts as skulks. Now they just heal fade and risk of dying (waste 10 res). Fade with rege and 2 skulks is more effective than fade with celerity and two gorges. They kill marine rt three times faster than lonely fade and they can wipe out bigger marine squads than lonely fade.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    actually, a fade caln blink so a gorge can stay on the edge of the fight, well out range. I mean, the fade can blink to you can't he.

    Also, there enought times whena gorge is waiting for res. He then better be usefull and freaking heal.
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