<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Oct 6 2004, 06:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Oct 6 2004, 06:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>This is very important for anyone who has a pet, no matter what animal it is! Please make sure you read the <i>WHOLE</i> post.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But, I'll be sure to only present the pro parts of my argument... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dogs and cats are carnivores. [...] You shouldn't be feeding your pets commercial pet food. Dogs and cats were not meant to eat grains, it's unhealthy for them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because when I think chihuahua and poodle I think ravenous meat eater who would be able to fend for themselves by hunting...you know...instead of being attacked and devoured...by say...a puma.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Commercial pet foods contain a lot of foods that are unnecessary and detrimental to your pet's health. For instance, kibbles contain grains. <i>Grains</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some processed dog foots contain corn and various grains, others are made from sheep and various meats. It depends on the brand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This includes meat from <u>sick or diseased</u> animals. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In the wild wolves and other carnivorous animals generally go after sick or diseased weaker animals first. They're the easier meal. It's the same reason that your dogs mouth (bacteriologically), is cleaner than yours (you know, unless he was just licking his ****).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My cats have been getting MUCH better since I started them on a BARF diet. On a diet of raw chicken with the raw bones and a <b>small</b> amount of organ meat, their fur has improved. A cat or dog's fur is one way of telling how healthy it is. My cats' fur has gotten softer. My oldest cat, who was horribly overweight before I started feeding her a raw diet, has lost a lot of weight and they're all more energetic and happier.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This depends entirely on your pet. Entirely. Your pet may or may not like raw food like this. My sister's cat was lost a few years ago (got out during early fall), it wasn't seen again until near mid-Winter (about 5 pounds lighter).
After being found the cat would only eat science diet sensitive stomach. Actually, it went through about 4 types of foods until it would settle on one that wouldn't make it vomit - including raw foods. It wont even eat mice anymore (it used to hunt for them before getting lost outside).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you've been thinking about consulting your vet about this, take everything they say with a grain of salt. Most vets receive only a small amount of training about animal nutrition and have been educated with lessons and statistics from pet food companies! A lot of them are even paid to sell expensive "specialty" pet foods.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because when I go to the doctor, I make sure that I only believe the stuff I want to about what they say.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For those of you who think that it will be more expensive than feeding your pet commercial pet food, you're wrong. Raw food can be found at extremely low prices, depending on the sales and where you look. Just shop around a bit. And you'll save <b>thousands</b> of dollars in vet bills when your animals are so healthy that they don't even need to go to the vet!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> $40 bag of food that feeds a dog for 2 weeks vs. meats at about $1 a pound. Even pound for pound (and that's cheap meat), that costs 60 dollars for two weeks. Not counting waste and storage.
Plus you get to pay for extra bills if you manage to get your pet sick.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you want your pet to suffer from a shortened lifespan, bloat, high risk for many diseases, decreased immune system and dental issues, sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That depends far more on your choice and distribution of food more than on the specific type of food.
Dogs have been domesticated for the last 70,000 years, great strides in animal health have occured in the last 150 years. You think we haven't just pushed ourselves ahead that little bit, that we might now what's healthy for them?
[And don't use the teeth argument on me, our teeth are almost exclusively devoted to being herbivores, but we eat tons of meat.]
Now, after all that, you'd think I'm against you, no? Well, I'm not. I'd just like you to present a fuller picture of this particular change in your pet's health.
Changing your pets diet instantaneously is going to be detrimental towards their health, no matter what. If you do want to try this diet: acknowledge the fact that you may be risking your pets health with occasionally unsafe meats (but also realize that if you're going with the historic debate: that dogs and cats were eating diseased meat for long before humans came along.]. Remember to slowly ween your pet off its previous diet slowly (otherwise vomiting and ill-health will come around).
This is much simpler to apply with small herbivores...In which case, if you have one: it's pretty nice.
If you have a cat or dog, I'd seriously want you to talk to your vet (while they may have a bias towards processed foods, their animal nutritional knowledge is better than yours).
On that note: Cats like liver and fish. Plus the occasional mouse...until they run off for 5 months, lose 5 pounds and come back. And milk, but processed human milk is not very healthy for anything. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-UltimaGecko+Oct 7 2004, 03:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UltimaGecko @ Oct 7 2004, 03:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because when I think chihuahua and poodle I think ravenous meat eater who would be able to fend for themselves by hunting...you know...instead of being attacked and devoured...by say...a puma.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A regular poodle is a pretty good match for a puma and yes, they are still meant to eat meat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some processed dog foots contain corn and various grains, others are made from sheep and various meats. It depends on the brand.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>All</b> commercial kibbles contain at least some grains. Even if the primary ingredient is meat, they still contain grains. Some of the better ones are lamb and <i>rice</i>. This is unhealthy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the wild wolves and other carnivorous animals generally go after sick or diseased weaker animals first. They're the easier meal. It's the same reason that your dogs mouth (bacteriologically), is cleaner than yours (you know, unless he was just licking his ****).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do have a point here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This depends entirely on your pet. Entirely. Your pet may or may not like raw food like this. My sister's cat was lost a few years ago (got out during early fall), it wasn't seen again until near mid-Winter (about 5 pounds lighter).
After being found the cat would only eat science diet sensitive stomach. Actually, it went through about 4 types of foods until it would settle on one that wouldn't make it vomit - including raw foods. It wont even eat mice anymore (it used to hunt for them before getting lost outside).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your cat wouldn't like raw food if it has been fed commercial food all of its life because all commercial cat food contains tuna. Tuna is addictive to cats and they may have to be tempted in to eating the raw meat at first, until the addiction is broken. Then it should be very willing to eat raw meat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because when I go to the doctor, I make sure that I only believe the stuff I want to about what they say.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Would you rather trust someone who has had maybe eight hours of total training regarding pet nutrition that came from pet food manufacturers, or nature, which has kept animals alive for millions of years?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->$40 bag of food that feeds a dog for 2 weeks vs. meats at about $1 a pound. Even pound for pound (and that's cheap meat), that costs 60 dollars for two weeks. Not counting waste and storage.
Plus you get to pay for extra bills if you manage to get your pet sick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That depends on where you look. My friend normally gets meat for 67 cents a pound and as low as 39 cents when the meat is on sale.
Once you include the price of vet bills from illnesses caused by commercial food, you'll see that it's cheaper in the end. Your dog SHOULDN'T be so sick that it needs to see a vet if you're feeding it a raw diet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That depends far more on your choice and distribution of food more than on the specific type of food.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All pets will suffer from being fed <b>any</b> commercial pet food. The problems may be minimized with a strict feeding schedule, but wouldn't you rather the problems be nonexistent?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dogs have been domesticated for the last 70,000 years, great strides in animal health have occured in the last 150 years. You think we haven't just pushed ourselves ahead that little bit, that we might now what's healthy for them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For most of those 70,000 years, they've been eating a raw diet. Commercial pet food has only been around for the last 50 or so years, and so have most of the common problems that pets have today.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[And don't use the teeth argument on me, our teeth are almost exclusively devoted to being herbivores, but we eat tons of meat.]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Step back a minute and take a look at our society. Study it. You'll find that humans are quite unhealthy. Humans are <u>omnivores</u>. We were meant to eat SOME meat. Not a lot. Definitely not as much as we do eat. We're also not meant to eat refined sugars, or processed grains. Nor were we meant to eat dairy after infancy. Especially not dairy from other animals. If you look at the people who eat very little meat, grains, sugars and dairy, you'll find that they're much healthier than most humans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Remember to slowly ween your pet off its previous diet slowly (otherwise vomiting and ill-health will come around).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not necessarily true. I switched my cats cold turkey and they didn't have any health problems. In fact, I noticed a near-immediate improvement in their health. It's the same with my friend's cats and dogs. She's switched them all immediately and saw no ill effects.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I feed my animals whatever is cheapest, wewt!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And your animals are going to suffer for it.
Actually anyone else want to know what CForrester's background is? He's saying not to believe your vet, but to believe him and a randomass website?
I get told by someone who's spent 5 years in the hardest fields of medicine at the 2nd best institution for it, which just so happens to have an official CDC laboratory that studies nearly exclusively domestic quadrapeds that Science Diet brand is one of the best with excellent specialty blends, versus a weblog with the domainname 'mybunny.com'.
I can certainly see why you think the weblog was more right.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 7 2004, 04:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 7 2004, 04:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I go to the second best vet school in the fricken' country, I think I'll do what they say. And I've heard that Science Diet is one of the best.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because Science Diet may be one of the best commercial pet foods doesn't mean that it's a healthy or good thing to feed your pet.
Ask your school where they get their information from. If they say "scientists" or "nutrition specialists", find out who they work for. I'm willing to bet that a pet food company is involved.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also heard that dogs all have bombs grafted into them as puppys when you get them from ADOPT, so DON'T ADOPT PUPPIES YOU PSYCHOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Keep your sarcasm out of here. If you aren't capable of a serious discussion that doesn't involve insulting anyone or spouting random stupidity, then you shouldn't be posting here. (I've seen you do the exact same thing in the past which has started flamewars, which I don't want to happen here, and I'm quite sick of it.)
A serious discussion? You're posting 'livejournal' and 'carrotcafe' as proof. You can't get any less serious. Show me something that can be construed as actual proof and I might take the effort to work something up. As of now, I have nothing to prove, since you don't either. "My cat got sick on Science Diet." I'm sure plenty of people (and they've said so too) say that their pets got better on Science Diet. Your word against theirs. Fun stuff eh?
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 7 2004, 04:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 7 2004, 04:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A serious discussion? You're posting 'livejournal' and 'carrotcafe' as proof. You can't get any less serious.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not even going to bother with you if you're going to attack the name of the website rather than the content.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Show me something that can be construed as actual proof and I might take the effort to work something up. As of now, I have nothing to prove, since you don't either.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All you need to do is look at nature, or even read all of the content at any of the links that I've provided. (Try reading and comprehending information instead of discrediting domain names.)
If you still want more proof, read <a href='http://www.price-pottenger.org/Articles/PottsCats.html' target='_blank'>this study</a>.
Nature suggests I live in a cave, speak in grunts, and catch my dinner by chasing it down with a spear.
And that study was done in then 1940s. That's the equivilent of comparing exhaust output from 1940s cars to the environment today and saying cars are evil.
By the way, I'm not suggesting that feeding your pet raw meat is in any way bad for them, but I simply believe that something like Science Diet is better since it replaces a lot of minerals they don't get from eating say, raw hamburger. You're comparing a brand of animal food that has been given awards by veterinary institutions to a turkey, and saying that the feed will cause my pet to die 3 years early.
Unless you go out and kill the animal to feed to your pet itself, it's not gonna be the 'Real Thing'. I could just as easilly say that BGH kills your animals, which is Bovine Growth Hormone. It's not natural, since a lot of slaugherhouses will inject their calfs into it to make them larger. You complain about grains - grains which, in a dog, for example, are indigestible: meaning they simply pass right through the dog - but fail to consider that the chicken you just fed your pet could have absorbed pestecides that it picks up from eating contaminated feed.
It hurts me, deep down, on a whole other level of conciousness to do this, but I agree absolutely with EEK. Four years of working in vet surgeries as a vet nurse, working with some amazingly intelligent people, including a food nazi called Claire. Seriously, food reps actually knew her by name when they knew no one else in the surgery, because she knew more about their food than they did. If it was anything food, she was all over it, I have a suspicion she tasted all of it personally, but regardless I got never ending lectures on the evils of supermarket brands and the various merits of the stuff we sold. And she was full of praise (mostly) for the larger companies.
Its true that some food brands (supermarket brands) put in filler like wheat husk etc with zero nutritional value, but pretty much anything you get from a vet surgery is quality. Science Diet is excellent, Iams/Eukanuba are also good. Waltham's, especially their canine response fp, is top notch. Nutro is tolerable if you are a "all natural" nut, but not quite on par imho.
But I refuse to believe that the professional animal carers such as myself and people I work with have been getting it wrong for all these years, and its actually unhealthy/not as good. Thats like telling people at the airport that powered flight is impossible. We stand by our experience with these foods on a daily basis.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Oct 7 2004, 03:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Oct 7 2004, 03:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It hurts me, deep down, on a whole other level of conciousness to do this, but I agree absolutely with EEK. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I won the forum game. Sigged. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
By the way, we fed our Golden Retriever Science Diet for a great number of years, and we just put him to sleep a few months ago. I loved that dog, and I grew up with him. He lived for nearly <b>16 years</b> which is rediculously and absurdedly long for a Retriever.
We had to put him down because he had a combination of fatty lymphoma genetic condition, inoperable, and severe hindquarter arthritis, both are fairly common conditions in Retrievers. Science Diet shrunk the lymphoma, but the arthritis got to a point where he had trouble even standing up. I often wonder how long he'd have lived if he didn't have the lymphoma or the arthritis, since aside he was incredibly healthy physically and mentally.
Shame on you, you've nearly made me cry you bastard.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 7 2004, 04:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 7 2004, 04:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By the way, I'm not suggesting that feeding your pet raw meat is in any way bad for them, but I simply believe that something like Science Diet is better since it replaces a lot of minerals they don't get from eating say, raw hamburger.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Raw hamburger shouldn't be fed to cats, it doesn't promote chewing. Cats need meat, bone, organ meat and a small amount of vegetables. Commercial pet foods contain many unnecessary grains, dairy and supplements and they cook their food, which reduces the nutritional value.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its true that some food brands (supermarket brands) put in filler like wheat husk etc with zero nutritional value, but pretty much anything you get from a vet surgery is quality. Science Diet is excellent, Iams/Eukanuba are also good. Waltham's, especially their canine response fp, is top notch. Nutro is tolerable if you are a "all natural" nut, but not quite on par imho.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>All</b> commercial kibbles contain filler. Wheat is the filler, they all contain wheat. They also contain dyes and artificial flavours. The dyes are to appeal to the OWNER, not the pet, and they're harmful. Science Diet and Eukanuba are <b>NOT</b> made exclusively from meat. If they were, that wouldn't be such a problem. Meat does <b>not make kibble</b>. The very <i>structure</i> of kibble comes from <i>grains</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I refuse to believe that the professional animal carers such as myself and people I work with have been getting it wrong for all these years, and its actually unhealthy/not as good. Thats like telling people at the airport that powered flight is impossible. We stand by our experience with these foods on a daily basis.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can refuse to believe that you've been getting something wrong all these years if you want to, but you're only limiting your own knowledge.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that study was done in then 1940s. That's the equivilent of comparing exhaust output from 1940s cars to the environment today and saying cars are evil.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They're not similar at <b>all</b>. It isn't any less relevant because the study was done in the 1940s. The structure of cooked beef has not changed in a bad way since then.
EEK, your dog may have not had lymphoma at <i>all</i> if he'd been on a raw diet, and the arthritis <b>might</b> not have been as bad.
You can also look at the <a href='http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp' target='_blank'>Merck Veterinary Manual</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nature suggests I live in a cave, speak in grunts, and catch my dinner by chasing it down with a spear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not exactly. Nature suggests that you build or dig a shelter and catch your food any way you can, and eat it raw. Since you don't have to do that, you can raise your food and kill it easily, you get to eat more healthfully--just as our dogs do when we can feed them appropriate raw food, as opposed to the fairly limited raw food wolves get.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EEK, your dog may have not had lymphoma at all if he'd been on a raw diet, and the arthritis might not have been as bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bull****. Both the arthritis and lymphoma are genetic traits carried in Retrievers and have been for decades and decades.
Frankly, I'm done here: you have absolutely no veterinary training, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you're disproving us with nonfactual information (by the way that Mercks thing you put up says that 'Home Diets' are complicated and a pain in the ****, and you need to know what exactly you're feeding the pet), and you're saying that your complete lack of knowledge utterly invalidates what incredibly highly-trained veterinary professionals have been doing research on for years.
And that 1940's thing? I think it's safe to say they knew a lot less about dog nutrition in the 1940's then they do now, so frankly, I don't put much stock in 1940's commercial dog food that they were doing tests on. Remember this is when they believed DDT was great and okay for the environment, asbestos was a miracle substance, and radon gas was harmless.
Science Diet is evil because the vets get a bonus on comission? So that automatically means it's pure concentrated evil? How do you know they're not giving the bonus out simply because it's the BEST, and they want to encourage vets to move away from Kibbles and Bits or Butchers Blend?
This is probably the most pathetic thread I've seen in a long time, since that 9/11 conspiracy crap was going around. If someone who actually... you know... KNOWS SOMETHING posts information, you blow it off as nonsense and then state how you know better.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 7 2004, 05:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 7 2004, 05:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EEK, your dog may have not had lymphoma at all if he'd been on a raw diet, and the arthritis might not have been as bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bull****. Both the arthritis and lymphoma are genetic traits carried in Retrievers and have been for decades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not if they're properly bred. Breeders try to breed that sort of thing OUT of breeds.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly, I'm done here: you have absolutely no veterinary training, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you're disproving us with nonfactual information (by the way that Mercks thing you put up says that 'Home Diets' are complicated and a pain in the ****, and you need to know what exactly you're feeding the pet), and you're saying that your complete lack of knowledge utterly invalidates what incredibly highly-trained veterinary professionals have been doing research on for years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *shrugs* If you're going to ignore all of the information I've put in front of you, I can't stop you. Good luck with school.
By the way, Merck's Vet Manual also says that carbohydrates are completely unnecessary and unhealthy in a dog's diet. What are grains? Carbohydrates. What is in commercial pet food? Grains.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that 1940's thing? I think it's safe to say they knew a lot less about dog nutrition in the 1940's then they do now, so frankly, I don't put much stock in 1940's commercial dog food.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was a comparison between cooked food and raw food. It had nothing to do with commercial food.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How do you know they're not giving the bonus out simply because it's the BEST, and they want to encourage vets to move away from Kibbles and Bits or Butchers Blend?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're living in a fantasy world if you think they would do that. Companies are out to make money. Any company that doesn't look to make money isn't going to last very long.
CForrester, the only you're going to prove something without a weblog, is to post an actual report and analysis on this. Don't just go around saying 'OMG this r teh best'.
Besides, I fed my rabbit all natural raw food (letuce, carrots, the likes) and he died in just a few weeks....essentially, my pet died from a BARF diet. I have never given him anything that was poisonous to rabbits and et he still died. I suspect it could be food poisoning but they were fresh from the market and passed quality tests. In fact, I did everything exactly as instructed by the mybunny.org page you posted, and yet it still died early.
And BTW, here's a pretty interesting finding on adult dog nutrition on the API webpage you posted. <a href='http://www.api4animals.org/508.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.api4animals.org/508.htm</a>
Vegetables? Didn't you say that dogs weren't meant to eat any vegetables unless they have any excessive acid or need roughage?
Even worse is this one on adult cat nutrition. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1/4 tsp salt substitute (potassium chloride) -- give 3 or 4 times a week<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Salt. And I got from <a href='http://www.rawlearning.com/responseto_fh.html' target='_blank'>this</a> page that excessive salt is bad for animals. Apparently this site is about dogs, but since dogs shouldn't have excessive salt, should cats consume even LESS salt than dogs due to their smaller size? 3-4 times a week for a cat is too much by these standards.
And even furthermore, it doesn't say anything about the BARF diet.
Until you can come up with a page that contains scientific findings or research on it, with <i>cold, hard numbers</i>, I'm stuck having to feed my cats commercial pet food. EDIT : Failed to mention that said report <u>has</u> to come from a qualified research institute.
<!--QuoteBegin-RaVe+Oct 7 2004, 06:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RaVe @ Oct 7 2004, 06:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> CForrester, the only you're going to prove something without a weblog, is to post an actual report and analysis on this. Don't just go around saying 'OMG this r teh best'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I <b>have</b> been posting things, not just blindly saying "OMG this r the best".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, I fed my rabbit all natural raw food (letuce, carrots, the likes) and he died in just a few weeks....essentially, my pet died from a BARF diet. I have never given him anything that was poisonous to rabbits and et he still died. I suspect it could be food poisoning but they were fresh from the market and passed quality tests. In fact, I did everything exactly as instructed by the mybunny.org page you posted, and yet it still died early.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There may have been something else that was wrong with the rabbit. About the food, though... There is a list of vegetables that rabbits should be fed, and a list of ones that are harmful. Are you absolutely sure that you fed it properly? Did it have constant access to fresh timothy hay? And, this may sound silly to you, but did your rabbit have access to its own feces, too? The first couple of droppings are soft and should be eaten again. The rest are hard and won't be eaten.
Rabbits are easily killed by various things, they're very sensitive. Even a cold can kill a rabbit, they need to be protected from drafts.
My friend says, on the subject of rabbits: "I'll note that I have had six rabbits, three of which were fed on pellets; two of them died within a year, one died in two weeks. The fourth rabbit was killed by my cat. The other two are, as far as I know, still alive, and would be around six years old. They were outside rabbits and eventually became wild."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And BTW, here's a pretty interesting finding on adult dog nutrition on the API webpage you posted. <a href='http://www.api4animals.org/508.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.api4animals.org/508.htm</a>
Vegetables? Didn't you say that dogs weren't meant to eat any vegetables unless they have any excessive acid or need roughage?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are a lot of different opinions about what should be fed, which is why I asked everyone to research it for themselves and decide what is best for their pets. Veggies aren't essential, but they're not going to harm the animal as long as they're fed in <b>small quantities</b>. MUCH smaller than meat. The same does not hold true for grains.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even worse is this one on adult cat nutrition. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1/4 tsp salt substitute (potassium chloride) -- give 3 or 4 times a week<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Salt. And I got from <a href='http://www.rawlearning.com/responseto_fh.html' target='_blank'>this</a> page that excessive salt is bad for animals. Apparently this site is about dogs, but since dogs shouldn't have excessive salt, should cats consume even LESS salt than dogs due to their smaller size? 3-4 times a week for a cat is too much by these standards.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, there are different opinions about everything and you have to decide what is right for your pet. Personally, I go for the completely natural route. I give them no supplements. I only give them raw chicken with the bones (Much more meat than bone, and the meat needs to be wrapped around the bone), fresh wheatgrass and a bit of raw vegetables once in a while.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Until you can come up with a page that contains scientific findings or research on it, with <i>cold, hard numbers</i>, I'm stuck having to feed my cats commercial pet food. EDIT : Failed to mention that said report <u>has</u> to come from a qualified research institute.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know of any, but I think that what I have provided is more than enough. If I see any, I'll let you know. It is, however, best to do your own research.
<a href='http://www.ahvma.org' target='_blank'>This may interest you</a>, by the way. The American Holistic Veterinary Association's website.
<b>[EDIT:]</b> By the way, I won't be around to respond until later today from now, so any questions or arguments will have to wait until then to be responded to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not if they're properly bred. Breeders try to breed that sort of thing OUT of breeds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the more "properly bred" the animal is, the better the odds are of getting this kind of thing. I cant count the number of purebred animals that we've ended because of hips, its pretty much a given that purebred retreivers, GSD's and labs will go down to dodgy hips. Breeders dont give a crap about the dogs hips, it has to look good for a few years to win shows, but after that - who cares. That's why they'll give away the puppy with the slightly askew nose after desexing it so it cant breed, but keep the one with the doomed hips to breed and show.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*shrugs* If you're going to ignore all of the information I've put in front of you, I can't stop you. Good luck with school.
By the way, Merck's Vet Manual also says that carbohydrates are completely unnecessary and unhealthy in a dog's diet. What are grains? Carbohydrates. What is in commercial pet food? Grains. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Opinions on dog food range like opinions on diet food for humans. You can get a vet which will tell you that dried food is the devil, whilst the next one will tear his hair out if you are feeding your pup anything but wet. However, all <b>respected</b> opinions discuss the various merits of the larger companies food. Its possible your diet is better, but there is no way of really telling without tests. We just know that when we get a dog with dietary problems, we put them on SciDie or Euk and suddenly they take a turn for the better. They are fat, so we put them on canine r/d (reduce diet) and they start losing weight, they have crystals in the urine so we put them on c/d etc and it works.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're living in a fantasy world if you think they would do that. Companies are out to make money. Any company that doesn't look to make money isn't going to last very long.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course they are out to make money, and if you make a product that works, people will buy it. And pay money for it, and keep coming back, which is exactly why these guys are making it big. We dont just sell this stuff, we feed OUR pets it. Its not a vet scam where we flog inferior stuff to the public but use homemade ourselves, we actually use this stuff. No conspiracy here, it works, we see it work, so we keep using it.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Oct 6 2004, 03:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Oct 6 2004, 03:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you would feed a rabbit raw vegetables and hay. Rabbits are herbivores. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> >:D
My dad has been hand making MUGA's dinner for some years now, he has been getting more than his fair shair of an excellent diet, maybe it's why he has silky smooth hair and has lived as long as he has.
<!--QuoteBegin-API Website+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (API Website)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Before you start to feed your companion animal a home-prepared diet, API strongly recommends that you discuss your decision with your veterinarian or a holistic veterinarian in your area. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The irony!
Cat food comes in boxes that last for a week on < $2.00. There is NO way that raw food is going to cost less than that, expecially for 4 cats and a dog. My mom would have to stop feeding her kids.
Not that BARF diets are bad, its just that we aren't all friggin millionares.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, the more "properly bred" the animal is, the better the odds are of getting this kind of thing. I cant count the number of purebred animals that we've ended because of hips, its pretty much a given that purebred retreivers, GSD's and labs will go down to dodgy hips. Breeders dont give a crap about the dogs hips, it has to look good for a few years to win shows, but after that - who cares. That's why they'll give away the puppy with the slightly askew nose after desexing it so it cant breed, but keep the one with the doomed hips to breed and show.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I meant dogs that were bred by breeders who actually care about the <i>health</i> and [/i]working standard[/i] of the dog, not AKC and other kennel club standards for showing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Opinions on dog food range like opinions on diet food for humans. You can get a vet which will tell you that dried food is the devil, whilst the next one will tear his hair out if you are feeding your pup anything but wet. However, all respected opinions discuss the various merits of the larger companies food. Its possible your diet is better, but there is no way of really telling without tests. We just know that when we get a dog with dietary problems, we put them on SciDie or Euk and suddenly they take a turn for the better. They are fat, so we put them on canine r/d (reduce diet) and they start losing weight, they have crystals in the urine so we put them on c/d etc and it works.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is true that there are some kibbles that <i>are</i> better than others, but they still won't equal a natural diet. Take these same animals and put them on a natural, raw diet and I bet that you'll get results that are better than switching them to Science Diet or Eukanuba.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course they are out to make money, and if you make a product that works, people will buy it. And pay money for it, and keep coming back, which is exactly why these guys are making it big. We dont just sell this stuff, we feed OUR pets it. Its not a vet scam where we flog inferior stuff to the public but use homemade ourselves, we actually use this stuff. No conspiracy here, it works, we see it work, so we keep using it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not necessarily true. People are looking for convienience. If kibble will keep their pet alive and they don't have to do any extra work to feed it to them, a lot of people are going to choose kibble over a natural diet. The pet food tests reflect this, too. The only requirement for a pet food is that the animal survives for six months on the kibble. A natural diet <b>does</b> involve extra work, but the extra work is learning and preparing the food. If you do that, you'll know more about your pet and it'll make you happy to know that your pet is happy and very healthy, and you won't need to go to the vet except for vaccinations.
It's not that the vets are scamming people, it's that the vets have <b>been</b> scammed. They were taught by pet food companies that kibble is best and that a natural diet is <i>dangerous</i> for your pet. While Science Diet and Eukanuba <b>do</b> work better than cheaper pet foods, you're still not going to get a dog that is as healthy as one fed a natural diet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The irony!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, it is always a matter of opinion. Some people might want to talk to their vets. I've told them that they should take what a vet says with a grain of salt, because the vet most likely isn't educated on raw food diets and, instead, was told that they're harmful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cat food comes in boxes that last for a week on < $2.00. There is NO way that raw food is going to cost less than that, expecially for 4 cats and a dog. My mom would have to stop feeding her kids.
Not that BARF diets are bad, its just that we aren't all friggin millionares.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm the very epitome of not being a millionaire. At the moment, I have many expensive bills. But the thing is, I'm willing to make sacrifices for my pets. Instead of buying that bottle of soda or other junk food, why not put the money that you would have spent on that aside and buy some raw meat for your pets instead. Always keep an eye out for deals on anything. If you can cut costs somewhere, go for it. You'll save money in the end, when you haven't got to spend money on vet bills (beyond vaccinations) or specialty kibbles if your pets get sick.
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Oct 7 2004, 03:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Oct 7 2004, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, the more "properly bred" the animal is, the better the odds are of getting this kind of thing. I cant count the number of purebred animals that we've ended because of hips, its pretty much a given that purebred retreivers, GSD's and labs will go down to dodgy hips. Breeders dont give a crap about the dogs hips, it has to look good for a few years to win shows, but after that - who cares. That's why they'll give away the puppy with the slightly askew nose after desexing it so it cant breed, but keep the one with the doomed hips to breed and show.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I meant dogs that were bred by breeders who actually care about the <i>health</i> and [/i]working standard[/i] of the dog, not AKC and other kennel club standards for showing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> We had a Show Golden and we're fairly sure he was purebred, or if not, very close. Thing is, he showed up on our doorstep one day, just hanging out in the front yard in L.A. We put up signs, no one claimed him, so we kept him.
Saying that SciDiet gave him arthritis and lymphoma is pretty stupid, and everything I've read says that grains are not harmful to your pets at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 7 2004, 04:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 7 2004, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Saying that SciDiet gave him arthritis and lymphoma is pretty stupid, and everything I've read says that grains are not harmful to your pets at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't say that Science Diet GAVE him arthritis and lymphoma. I'm saying that it didn't provide the proper nutrition to deal with it.
As for the grains... Grains must be cooked or sprouted and thoroughly chewed to be digested. Carnivore teeth are unable to pulverise the grains enough to be digested. Considering the amount of grains in commercial pet food, this is unhealthy.
I can't digest the outer skin of corn kernels (Hell they make jokes about it) and you don't see me keeling over do you? If it's undigestible, it just passes straight through. If the dog can't digest rice, the rice just won't be digested. It doesn't kill the animal or hurt it in the slightest.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 7 2004, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 7 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't digest the outer skin of corn kernels (Hell they make jokes about it) and you don't see me keeling over do you? If it's undigestible, it just passes straight through. If the dog can't digest rice, the rice just won't be digested. It doesn't kill the animal or hurt it in the slightest. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Spend an entire week with the outer skin of corn kernels as 40% <i>or more</i> of your entire diet and see how you feel at the end of that week.
My vote is for "Placebo Effect" But I wouldn't know since we supplement our cats diets with tasty bits of meat and the like from our meals. Oddly enough, however, they will freely and eagerly eat bread and carbohydrates. They also love french fries. Why they would knowingly eat somthing that is bad for them or that they don't like is really beyond me however...
<!--QuoteBegin-Redford+Oct 7 2004, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redford @ Oct 7 2004, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why they would knowingly eat somthing that is bad for them or that they don't like is really beyond me however... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Humans do the exact thing that you just described, and look at our health. Tons of diseases, illnesses and obesity. Other animal don't <i>know</i> that it's unhealthy for them.
My aunt’s cat is 16 years old and has been feed nothing but regular old pet food for its entire life. It has no health problems what so ever, I can't see this thing dieing of anything other then old age. It's a nice looking calico with a shiny coat too.
I have two cats of my own (9 and 1 years old) and they eat regular pet food to, I really have a hard time believing this stuff, sounds like some people are angry at the pet food companies, reminds me of "fetus on the bus" mentality. "Your pet will die younger...join us...or lose"
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Oct 7 2004, 04:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Oct 7 2004, 04:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Oct 7 2004, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Oct 7 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't digest the outer skin of corn kernels (Hell they make jokes about it) and you don't see me keeling over do you? If it's undigestible, it just passes straight through. If the dog can't digest rice, the rice just won't be digested. It doesn't kill the animal or hurt it in the slightest. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Spend an entire week with the outer skin of corn kernels as 40% <i>or more</i> of your entire diet and see how you feel at the end of that week. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You've never lived on a Wisconsin farm during the corn harvest have you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But, I'll be sure to only present the pro parts of my argument... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dogs and cats are carnivores.
[...]
You shouldn't be feeding your pets commercial pet food. Dogs and cats were not meant to eat grains, it's unhealthy for them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because when I think chihuahua and poodle I think ravenous meat eater who would be able to fend for themselves by hunting...you know...instead of being attacked and devoured...by say...a puma.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Commercial pet foods contain a lot of foods that are unnecessary and detrimental to your pet's health. For instance, kibbles contain grains. <i>Grains</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some processed dog foots contain corn and various grains, others are made from sheep and various meats. It depends on the brand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This includes meat from <u>sick or diseased</u> animals. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the wild wolves and other carnivorous animals generally go after sick or diseased weaker animals first. They're the easier meal. It's the same reason that your dogs mouth (bacteriologically), is cleaner than yours (you know, unless he was just licking his ****).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My cats have been getting MUCH better since I started them on a BARF diet. On a diet of raw chicken with the raw bones and a <b>small</b> amount of organ meat, their fur has improved. A cat or dog's fur is one way of telling how healthy it is. My cats' fur has gotten softer. My oldest cat, who was horribly overweight before I started feeding her a raw diet, has lost a lot of weight and they're all more energetic and happier.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This depends entirely on your pet. Entirely. Your pet may or may not like raw food like this. My sister's cat was lost a few years ago (got out during early fall), it wasn't seen again until near mid-Winter (about 5 pounds lighter).
After being found the cat would only eat science diet sensitive stomach. Actually, it went through about 4 types of foods until it would settle on one that wouldn't make it vomit - including raw foods. It wont even eat mice anymore (it used to hunt for them before getting lost outside).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you've been thinking about consulting your vet about this, take everything they say with a grain of salt. Most vets receive only a small amount of training about animal nutrition and have been educated with lessons and statistics from pet food companies! A lot of them are even paid to sell expensive "specialty" pet foods.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because when I go to the doctor, I make sure that I only believe the stuff I want to about what they say.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For those of you who think that it will be more expensive than feeding your pet commercial pet food, you're wrong. Raw food can be found at extremely low prices, depending on the sales and where you look. Just shop around a bit. And you'll save <b>thousands</b> of dollars in vet bills when your animals are so healthy that they don't even need to go to the vet!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
$40 bag of food that feeds a dog for 2 weeks vs. meats at about $1 a pound. Even pound for pound (and that's cheap meat), that costs 60 dollars for two weeks. Not counting waste and storage.
Plus you get to pay for extra bills if you manage to get your pet sick.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you want your pet to suffer from a shortened lifespan, bloat, high risk for many diseases, decreased immune system and dental issues, sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That depends far more on your choice and distribution of food more than on the specific type of food.
Dogs have been domesticated for the last 70,000 years, great strides in animal health have occured in the last 150 years. You think we haven't just pushed ourselves ahead that little bit, that we might now what's healthy for them?
[And don't use the teeth argument on me, our teeth are almost exclusively devoted to being herbivores, but we eat tons of meat.]
Now, after all that, you'd think I'm against you, no?
Well, I'm not. I'd just like you to present a fuller picture of this particular change in your pet's health.
Changing your pets diet instantaneously is going to be detrimental towards their health, no matter what. If you do want to try this diet: acknowledge the fact that you may be risking your pets health with occasionally unsafe meats (but also realize that if you're going with the historic debate: that dogs and cats were eating diseased meat for long before humans came along.]. Remember to slowly ween your pet off its previous diet slowly (otherwise vomiting and ill-health will come around).
This is much simpler to apply with small herbivores...In which case, if you have one: it's pretty nice.
If you have a cat or dog, I'd seriously want you to talk to your vet (while they may have a bias towards processed foods, their animal nutritional knowledge is better than yours).
On that note: Cats like liver and fish. Plus the occasional mouse...until they run off for 5 months, lose 5 pounds and come back. And milk, but processed human milk is not very healthy for anything. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A regular poodle is a pretty good match for a puma and yes, they are still meant to eat meat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some processed dog foots contain corn and various grains, others are made from sheep and various meats. It depends on the brand.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>All</b> commercial kibbles contain at least some grains. Even if the primary ingredient is meat, they still contain grains. Some of the better ones are lamb and <i>rice</i>. This is unhealthy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the wild wolves and other carnivorous animals generally go after sick or diseased weaker animals first. They're the easier meal. It's the same reason that your dogs mouth (bacteriologically), is cleaner than yours (you know, unless he was just licking his ****).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do have a point here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This depends entirely on your pet. Entirely. Your pet may or may not like raw food like this. My sister's cat was lost a few years ago (got out during early fall), it wasn't seen again until near mid-Winter (about 5 pounds lighter).
After being found the cat would only eat science diet sensitive stomach. Actually, it went through about 4 types of foods until it would settle on one that wouldn't make it vomit - including raw foods. It wont even eat mice anymore (it used to hunt for them before getting lost outside).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your cat wouldn't like raw food if it has been fed commercial food all of its life because all commercial cat food contains tuna. Tuna is addictive to cats and they may have to be tempted in to eating the raw meat at first, until the addiction is broken. Then it should be very willing to eat raw meat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because when I go to the doctor, I make sure that I only believe the stuff I want to about what they say.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you rather trust someone who has had maybe eight hours of total training regarding pet nutrition that came from pet food manufacturers, or nature, which has kept animals alive for millions of years?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->$40 bag of food that feeds a dog for 2 weeks vs. meats at about $1 a pound. Even pound for pound (and that's cheap meat), that costs 60 dollars for two weeks. Not counting waste and storage.
Plus you get to pay for extra bills if you manage to get your pet sick.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That depends on where you look. My friend normally gets meat for 67 cents a pound and as low as 39 cents when the meat is on sale.
Once you include the price of vet bills from illnesses caused by commercial food, you'll see that it's cheaper in the end. Your dog SHOULDN'T be so sick that it needs to see a vet if you're feeding it a raw diet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That depends far more on your choice and distribution of food more than on the specific type of food.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All pets will suffer from being fed <b>any</b> commercial pet food. The problems may be minimized with a strict feeding schedule, but wouldn't you rather the problems be nonexistent?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dogs have been domesticated for the last 70,000 years, great strides in animal health have occured in the last 150 years. You think we haven't just pushed ourselves ahead that little bit, that we might now what's healthy for them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For most of those 70,000 years, they've been eating a raw diet. Commercial pet food has only been around for the last 50 or so years, and so have most of the common problems that pets have today.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[And don't use the teeth argument on me, our teeth are almost exclusively devoted to being herbivores, but we eat tons of meat.]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Step back a minute and take a look at our society. Study it. You'll find that humans are quite unhealthy. Humans are <u>omnivores</u>. We were meant to eat SOME meat. Not a lot. Definitely not as much as we do eat. We're also not meant to eat refined sugars, or processed grains. Nor were we meant to eat dairy after infancy. Especially not dairy from other animals. If you look at the people who eat very little meat, grains, sugars and dairy, you'll find that they're much healthier than most humans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Remember to slowly ween your pet off its previous diet slowly (otherwise vomiting and ill-health will come around).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not necessarily true. I switched my cats cold turkey and they didn't have any health problems. In fact, I noticed a near-immediate improvement in their health. It's the same with my friend's cats and dogs. She's switched them all immediately and saw no ill effects.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I feed my animals whatever is cheapest, wewt!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And your animals are going to suffer for it.
I get told by someone who's spent 5 years in the hardest fields of medicine at the 2nd best institution for it, which just so happens to have an official CDC laboratory that studies nearly exclusively domestic quadrapeds that Science Diet brand is one of the best with excellent specialty blends, versus a weblog with the domainname 'mybunny.com'.
I can certainly see why you think the weblog was more right.
Just because Science Diet may be one of the best commercial pet foods doesn't mean that it's a healthy or good thing to feed your pet.
Ask your school where they get their information from. If they say "scientists" or "nutrition specialists", find out who they work for. I'm willing to bet that a pet food company is involved.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also heard that dogs all have bombs grafted into them as puppys when you get them from ADOPT, so DON'T ADOPT PUPPIES YOU PSYCHOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep your sarcasm out of here. If you aren't capable of a serious discussion that doesn't involve insulting anyone or spouting random stupidity, then you shouldn't be posting here. (I've seen you do the exact same thing in the past which has started flamewars, which I don't want to happen here, and I'm quite sick of it.)
By the way I reworked my post.
I'm not even going to bother with you if you're going to attack the name of the website rather than the content.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Show me something that can be construed as actual proof and I might take the effort to work something up. As of now, I have nothing to prove, since you don't either.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All you need to do is look at nature, or even read all of the content at any of the links that I've provided. (Try reading and comprehending information instead of discrediting domain names.)
If you still want more proof, read <a href='http://www.price-pottenger.org/Articles/PottsCats.html' target='_blank'>this study</a>.
And that study was done in then 1940s. That's the equivilent of comparing exhaust output from 1940s cars to the environment today and saying cars are evil.
By the way, I'm not suggesting that feeding your pet raw meat is in any way bad for them, but I simply believe that something like Science Diet is better since it replaces a lot of minerals they don't get from eating say, raw hamburger. You're comparing a brand of animal food that has been given awards by veterinary institutions to a turkey, and saying that the feed will cause my pet to die 3 years early.
Unless you go out and kill the animal to feed to your pet itself, it's not gonna be the 'Real Thing'. I could just as easilly say that BGH kills your animals, which is Bovine Growth Hormone. It's not natural, since a lot of slaugherhouses will inject their calfs into it to make them larger. You complain about grains - grains which, in a dog, for example, are indigestible: meaning they simply pass right through the dog - but fail to consider that the chicken you just fed your pet could have absorbed pestecides that it picks up from eating contaminated feed.
Its true that some food brands (supermarket brands) put in filler like wheat husk etc with zero nutritional value, but pretty much anything you get from a vet surgery is quality. Science Diet is excellent, Iams/Eukanuba are also good. Waltham's, especially their canine response fp, is top notch. Nutro is tolerable if you are a "all natural" nut, but not quite on par imho.
But I refuse to believe that the professional animal carers such as myself and people I work with have been getting it wrong for all these years, and its actually unhealthy/not as good. Thats like telling people at the airport that powered flight is impossible. We stand by our experience with these foods on a daily basis.
I won the forum game. Sigged. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We had to put him down because he had a combination of fatty lymphoma genetic condition, inoperable, and severe hindquarter arthritis, both are fairly common conditions in Retrievers. Science Diet shrunk the lymphoma, but the arthritis got to a point where he had trouble even standing up. I often wonder how long he'd have lived if he didn't have the lymphoma or the arthritis, since aside he was incredibly healthy physically and mentally.
Shame on you, you've nearly made me cry you bastard.
Raw hamburger shouldn't be fed to cats, it doesn't promote chewing. Cats need meat, bone, organ meat and a small amount of vegetables. Commercial pet foods contain many unnecessary grains, dairy and supplements and they cook their food, which reduces the nutritional value.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its true that some food brands (supermarket brands) put in filler like wheat husk etc with zero nutritional value, but pretty much anything you get from a vet surgery is quality. Science Diet is excellent, Iams/Eukanuba are also good. Waltham's, especially their canine response fp, is top notch. Nutro is tolerable if you are a "all natural" nut, but not quite on par imho.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>All</b> commercial kibbles contain filler. Wheat is the filler, they all contain wheat. They also contain dyes and artificial flavours. The dyes are to appeal to the OWNER, not the pet, and they're harmful. Science Diet and Eukanuba are <b>NOT</b> made exclusively from meat. If they were, that wouldn't be such a problem. Meat does <b>not make kibble</b>. The very <i>structure</i> of kibble comes from <i>grains</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I refuse to believe that the professional animal carers such as myself and people I work with have been getting it wrong for all these years, and its actually unhealthy/not as good. Thats like telling people at the airport that powered flight is impossible. We stand by our experience with these foods on a daily basis.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can refuse to believe that you've been getting something wrong all these years if you want to, but you're only limiting your own knowledge.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that study was done in then 1940s. That's the equivilent of comparing exhaust output from 1940s cars to the environment today and saying cars are evil.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're not similar at <b>all</b>. It isn't any less relevant because the study was done in the 1940s. The structure of cooked beef has not changed in a bad way since then.
EEK, your dog may have not had lymphoma at <i>all</i> if he'd been on a raw diet, and the arthritis <b>might</b> not have been as bad.
You can also look at the <a href='http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp' target='_blank'>Merck Veterinary Manual</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nature suggests I live in a cave, speak in grunts, and catch my dinner by chasing it down with a spear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not exactly. Nature suggests that you build or dig a shelter and catch your food any way you can, and eat it raw. Since you don't have to do that, you can raise your food and kill it easily, you get to eat more healthfully--just as our dogs do when we can feed them appropriate raw food, as opposed to the fairly limited raw food wolves get.
EEK, your dog may have not had lymphoma at all if he'd been on a raw diet, and the arthritis might not have been as bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bull****. Both the arthritis and lymphoma are genetic traits carried in Retrievers and have been for decades and decades.
Frankly, I'm done here: you have absolutely no veterinary training, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you're disproving us with nonfactual information (by the way that Mercks thing you put up says that 'Home Diets' are complicated and a pain in the ****, and you need to know what exactly you're feeding the pet), and you're saying that your complete lack of knowledge utterly invalidates what incredibly highly-trained veterinary professionals have been doing research on for years.
And that 1940's thing? I think it's safe to say they knew a lot less about dog nutrition in the 1940's then they do now, so frankly, I don't put much stock in 1940's commercial dog food that they were doing tests on. Remember this is when they believed DDT was great and okay for the environment, asbestos was a miracle substance, and radon gas was harmless.
Science Diet is evil because the vets get a bonus on comission? So that automatically means it's pure concentrated evil? How do you know they're not giving the bonus out simply because it's the BEST, and they want to encourage vets to move away from Kibbles and Bits or Butchers Blend?
This is probably the most pathetic thread I've seen in a long time, since that 9/11 conspiracy crap was going around. If someone who actually... you know... KNOWS SOMETHING posts information, you blow it off as nonsense and then state how you know better.
EEK, your dog may have not had lymphoma at all if he'd been on a raw diet, and the arthritis might not have been as bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bull****. Both the arthritis and lymphoma are genetic traits carried in Retrievers and have been for decades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not if they're properly bred. Breeders try to breed that sort of thing OUT of breeds.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly, I'm done here: you have absolutely no veterinary training, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you're disproving us with nonfactual information (by the way that Mercks thing you put up says that 'Home Diets' are complicated and a pain in the ****, and you need to know what exactly you're feeding the pet), and you're saying that your complete lack of knowledge utterly invalidates what incredibly highly-trained veterinary professionals have been doing research on for years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*shrugs* If you're going to ignore all of the information I've put in front of you, I can't stop you. Good luck with school.
By the way, Merck's Vet Manual also says that carbohydrates are completely unnecessary and unhealthy in a dog's diet. What are grains? Carbohydrates. What is in commercial pet food? Grains.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that 1940's thing? I think it's safe to say they knew a lot less about dog nutrition in the 1940's then they do now, so frankly, I don't put much stock in 1940's commercial dog food.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was a comparison between cooked food and raw food. It had nothing to do with commercial food.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How do you know they're not giving the bonus out simply because it's the BEST, and they want to encourage vets to move away from Kibbles and Bits or Butchers Blend?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're living in a fantasy world if you think they would do that. Companies are out to make money. Any company that doesn't look to make money isn't going to last very long.
Besides, I fed my rabbit all natural raw food (letuce, carrots, the likes) and he died in just a few weeks....essentially, my pet died from a BARF diet. I have never given him anything that was poisonous to rabbits and et he still died. I suspect it could be food poisoning but they were fresh from the market and passed quality tests.
In fact, I did everything exactly as instructed by the mybunny.org page you posted, and yet it still died early.
And BTW, here's a pretty interesting finding on adult dog nutrition on the API webpage you posted.
<a href='http://www.api4animals.org/508.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.api4animals.org/508.htm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->puréed veggie mix (up to 1 cup)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vegetables? Didn't you say that dogs weren't meant to eat any vegetables unless they have any excessive acid or need roughage?
Even worse is this one on adult cat nutrition.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1/4 tsp salt substitute (potassium chloride) -- give 3 or 4 times a week<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Salt. And I got from <a href='http://www.rawlearning.com/responseto_fh.html' target='_blank'>this</a> page that excessive salt is bad for animals. Apparently this site is about dogs, but since dogs shouldn't have excessive salt, should cats consume even LESS salt than dogs due to their smaller size? 3-4 times a week for a cat is too much by these standards.
And even furthermore, it doesn't say anything about the BARF diet.
Until you can come up with a page that contains scientific findings or research on it, with <i>cold, hard numbers</i>, I'm stuck having to feed my cats commercial pet food.
EDIT : Failed to mention that said report <u>has</u> to come from a qualified research institute.
I <b>have</b> been posting things, not just blindly saying "OMG this r the best".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, I fed my rabbit all natural raw food (letuce, carrots, the likes) and he died in just a few weeks....essentially, my pet died from a BARF diet. I have never given him anything that was poisonous to rabbits and et he still died. I suspect it could be food poisoning but they were fresh from the market and passed quality tests.
In fact, I did everything exactly as instructed by the mybunny.org page you posted, and yet it still died early.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There may have been something else that was wrong with the rabbit. About the food, though... There is a list of vegetables that rabbits should be fed, and a list of ones that are harmful. Are you absolutely sure that you fed it properly? Did it have constant access to fresh timothy hay? And, this may sound silly to you, but did your rabbit have access to its own feces, too? The first couple of droppings are soft and should be eaten again. The rest are hard and won't be eaten.
Rabbits are easily killed by various things, they're very sensitive. Even a cold can kill a rabbit, they need to be protected from drafts.
My friend says, on the subject of rabbits: "I'll note that I have had six rabbits, three of which were fed on pellets; two of them died within a year, one died in two weeks. The fourth rabbit was killed by my cat. The other two are, as far as I know, still alive, and would be around six years old. They were outside rabbits and eventually became wild."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And BTW, here's a pretty interesting finding on adult dog nutrition on the API webpage you posted.
<a href='http://www.api4animals.org/508.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.api4animals.org/508.htm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->puréed veggie mix (up to 1 cup)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vegetables? Didn't you say that dogs weren't meant to eat any vegetables unless they have any excessive acid or need roughage?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are a lot of different opinions about what should be fed, which is why I asked everyone to research it for themselves and decide what is best for their pets. Veggies aren't essential, but they're not going to harm the animal as long as they're fed in <b>small quantities</b>. MUCH smaller than meat. The same does not hold true for grains.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even worse is this one on adult cat nutrition.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1/4 tsp salt substitute (potassium chloride) -- give 3 or 4 times a week<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Salt. And I got from <a href='http://www.rawlearning.com/responseto_fh.html' target='_blank'>this</a> page that excessive salt is bad for animals. Apparently this site is about dogs, but since dogs shouldn't have excessive salt, should cats consume even LESS salt than dogs due to their smaller size? 3-4 times a week for a cat is too much by these standards.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, there are different opinions about everything and you have to decide what is right for your pet. Personally, I go for the completely natural route. I give them no supplements. I only give them raw chicken with the bones (Much more meat than bone, and the meat needs to be wrapped around the bone), fresh wheatgrass and a bit of raw vegetables once in a while.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Until you can come up with a page that contains scientific findings or research on it, with <i>cold, hard numbers</i>, I'm stuck having to feed my cats commercial pet food.
EDIT : Failed to mention that said report <u>has</u> to come from a qualified research institute.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know of any, but I think that what I have provided is more than enough. If I see any, I'll let you know. It is, however, best to do your own research.
<a href='http://www.ahvma.org' target='_blank'>This may interest you</a>, by the way. The American Holistic Veterinary Association's website.
<b>[EDIT:]</b> By the way, I won't be around to respond until later today from now, so any questions or arguments will have to wait until then to be responded to.
Actually, the more "properly bred" the animal is, the better the odds are of getting this kind of thing. I cant count the number of purebred animals that we've ended because of hips, its pretty much a given that purebred retreivers, GSD's and labs will go down to dodgy hips. Breeders dont give a crap about the dogs hips, it has to look good for a few years to win shows, but after that - who cares. That's why they'll give away the puppy with the slightly askew nose after desexing it so it cant breed, but keep the one with the doomed hips to breed and show.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*shrugs* If you're going to ignore all of the information I've put in front of you, I can't stop you. Good luck with school.
By the way, Merck's Vet Manual also says that carbohydrates are completely unnecessary and unhealthy in a dog's diet. What are grains? Carbohydrates. What is in commercial pet food? Grains.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Opinions on dog food range like opinions on diet food for humans. You can get a vet which will tell you that dried food is the devil, whilst the next one will tear his hair out if you are feeding your pup anything but wet. However, all <b>respected</b> opinions discuss the various merits of the larger companies food. Its possible your diet is better, but there is no way of really telling without tests. We just know that when we get a dog with dietary problems, we put them on SciDie or Euk and suddenly they take a turn for the better. They are fat, so we put them on canine r/d (reduce diet) and they start losing weight, they have crystals in the urine so we put them on c/d etc and it works.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're living in a fantasy world if you think they would do that. Companies are out to make money. Any company that doesn't look to make money isn't going to last very long.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course they are out to make money, and if you make a product that works, people will buy it. And pay money for it, and keep coming back, which is exactly why these guys are making it big. We dont just sell this stuff, we feed OUR pets it. Its not a vet scam where we flog inferior stuff to the public but use homemade ourselves, we actually use this stuff. No conspiracy here, it works, we see it work, so we keep using it.
sigged ftw!
(In a british accent)
<a href='http://austinspad.tripod.com/sounds/ap1/bastard.wav' target='_blank'>YOU BASTARD, YOU BLOODY BASTARD!</a>
(not to EEK, but to whomever EEK is angry at)
>:D
My dad has been hand making MUGA's dinner for some years now, he has been getting more than his fair shair of an excellent diet, maybe it's why he has silky smooth hair and has lived as long as he has.
Before you start to feed your companion animal a home-prepared diet, API strongly recommends that you discuss your decision with your veterinarian or a holistic veterinarian in your area. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The irony!
Not that BARF diets are bad, its just that we aren't all friggin millionares.
I meant dogs that were bred by breeders who actually care about the <i>health</i> and [/i]working standard[/i] of the dog, not AKC and other kennel club standards for showing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Opinions on dog food range like opinions on diet food for humans. You can get a vet which will tell you that dried food is the devil, whilst the next one will tear his hair out if you are feeding your pup anything but wet. However, all respected opinions discuss the various merits of the larger companies food. Its possible your diet is better, but there is no way of really telling without tests. We just know that when we get a dog with dietary problems, we put them on SciDie or Euk and suddenly they take a turn for the better. They are fat, so we put them on canine r/d (reduce diet) and they start losing weight, they have crystals in the urine so we put them on c/d etc and it works.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is true that there are some kibbles that <i>are</i> better than others, but they still won't equal a natural diet. Take these same animals and put them on a natural, raw diet and I bet that you'll get results that are better than switching them to Science Diet or Eukanuba.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course they are out to make money, and if you make a product that works, people will buy it. And pay money for it, and keep coming back, which is exactly why these guys are making it big. We dont just sell this stuff, we feed OUR pets it. Its not a vet scam where we flog inferior stuff to the public but use homemade ourselves, we actually use this stuff. No conspiracy here, it works, we see it work, so we keep using it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not necessarily true. People are looking for convienience. If kibble will keep their pet alive and they don't have to do any extra work to feed it to them, a lot of people are going to choose kibble over a natural diet. The pet food tests reflect this, too. The only requirement for a pet food is that the animal survives for six months on the kibble. A natural diet <b>does</b> involve extra work, but the extra work is learning and preparing the food. If you do that, you'll know more about your pet and it'll make you happy to know that your pet is happy and very healthy, and you won't need to go to the vet except for vaccinations.
It's not that the vets are scamming people, it's that the vets have <b>been</b> scammed. They were taught by pet food companies that kibble is best and that a natural diet is <i>dangerous</i> for your pet. While Science Diet and Eukanuba <b>do</b> work better than cheaper pet foods, you're still not going to get a dog that is as healthy as one fed a natural diet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The irony!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, it is always a matter of opinion. Some people might want to talk to their vets. I've told them that they should take what a vet says with a grain of salt, because the vet most likely isn't educated on raw food diets and, instead, was told that they're harmful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cat food comes in boxes that last for a week on < $2.00. There is NO way that raw food is going to cost less than that, expecially for 4 cats and a dog. My mom would have to stop feeding her kids.
Not that BARF diets are bad, its just that we aren't all friggin millionares.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm the very epitome of not being a millionaire. At the moment, I have many expensive bills. But the thing is, I'm willing to make sacrifices for my pets. Instead of buying that bottle of soda or other junk food, why not put the money that you would have spent on that aside and buy some raw meat for your pets instead. Always keep an eye out for deals on anything. If you can cut costs somewhere, go for it. You'll save money in the end, when you haven't got to spend money on vet bills (beyond vaccinations) or specialty kibbles if your pets get sick.
I meant dogs that were bred by breeders who actually care about the <i>health</i> and [/i]working standard[/i] of the dog, not AKC and other kennel club standards for showing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
We had a Show Golden and we're fairly sure he was purebred, or if not, very close. Thing is, he showed up on our doorstep one day, just hanging out in the front yard in L.A. We put up signs, no one claimed him, so we kept him.
Saying that SciDiet gave him arthritis and lymphoma is pretty stupid, and everything I've read says that grains are not harmful to your pets at all.
I didn't say that Science Diet GAVE him arthritis and lymphoma. I'm saying that it didn't provide the proper nutrition to deal with it.
As for the grains... Grains must be cooked or sprouted and thoroughly chewed to be digested. Carnivore teeth are unable to pulverise the grains enough to be digested. Considering the amount of grains in commercial pet food, this is unhealthy.
Spend an entire week with the outer skin of corn kernels as 40% <i>or more</i> of your entire diet and see how you feel at the end of that week.
Humans do the exact thing that you just described, and look at our health. Tons of diseases, illnesses and obesity. Other animal don't <i>know</i> that it's unhealthy for them.
I have two cats of my own (9 and 1 years old) and they eat regular pet food to, I really have a hard time believing this stuff, sounds like some people are angry at the pet food companies, reminds me of "fetus on the bus" mentality. "Your pet will die younger...join us...or lose"
Spend an entire week with the outer skin of corn kernels as 40% <i>or more</i> of your entire diet and see how you feel at the end of that week. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've never lived on a Wisconsin farm during the corn harvest have you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->