About Realistic Ballistics.
<div class="IPBDescription">discuss.</div> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Main Entry: bal·lis·tics
Pronunciation: b&-'lis-tiks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
1 a : the science of the motion of projectiles in flight <b>b : the flight characteristics of a projectile</b>
2 a : the study of the processes within a firearm as it is fired <b>b : the firing characteristics of a firearm or cartridge</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(for those of you who don't know gun terms.. the correct word for the <b>flight characteristics of a projectile</b> is <b><span style='color:red'>ballistics</b></span>.
ANY new first person shooter that claims itself to be realistic or have realistic physics should have bullet velocity, windage, and drop physics - ballistics.
why, do you ask?
simple: at 1000 yards, placing the crosshairs directly on your target with, say, a .308 sniper rifle of any sort, results in these things:
1) the bullet will drop as it flies
2) wind will affect is trajectory
3) its velocity will slow somewhat
4) <b>it will take TIME</b> to get to the target.
now if you have a game with a sniper rifle that teleports bullets INSTANTLY into a target at long range.. well. somewhat ridiculous, isn't it? not having to lead your target AT ALL? not even having to compensate JUST A LITTLE at extreme range? not being able to dodge sniper fire because all he has to do is put the crosshair on you and pull the trigger, without taking into account range, velocity, drop, wind, etc.
moreover, in HL2, a 9mm round will peform the same as a .45 round. doesn't make a difference to you, huh? well.. in HL2, a .45 round will also perform the same as a .308 round... or a 20 or 30mm round from a helicopter, which is supposed to be going thousands and thousands of feet FASTER, per second.
now if you have teleporting bullets that are ALL ballistically identical.. your game, i am sorry to say, does NOT have realistic physics.. in any sense.
Pronunciation: b&-'lis-tiks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
1 a : the science of the motion of projectiles in flight <b>b : the flight characteristics of a projectile</b>
2 a : the study of the processes within a firearm as it is fired <b>b : the firing characteristics of a firearm or cartridge</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(for those of you who don't know gun terms.. the correct word for the <b>flight characteristics of a projectile</b> is <b><span style='color:red'>ballistics</b></span>.
ANY new first person shooter that claims itself to be realistic or have realistic physics should have bullet velocity, windage, and drop physics - ballistics.
why, do you ask?
simple: at 1000 yards, placing the crosshairs directly on your target with, say, a .308 sniper rifle of any sort, results in these things:
1) the bullet will drop as it flies
2) wind will affect is trajectory
3) its velocity will slow somewhat
4) <b>it will take TIME</b> to get to the target.
now if you have a game with a sniper rifle that teleports bullets INSTANTLY into a target at long range.. well. somewhat ridiculous, isn't it? not having to lead your target AT ALL? not even having to compensate JUST A LITTLE at extreme range? not being able to dodge sniper fire because all he has to do is put the crosshair on you and pull the trigger, without taking into account range, velocity, drop, wind, etc.
moreover, in HL2, a 9mm round will peform the same as a .45 round. doesn't make a difference to you, huh? well.. in HL2, a .45 round will also perform the same as a .308 round... or a 20 or 30mm round from a helicopter, which is supposed to be going thousands and thousands of feet FASTER, per second.
now if you have teleporting bullets that are ALL ballistically identical.. your game, i am sorry to say, does NOT have realistic physics.. in any sense.
Comments
With games like Half-Life it's not.
I'm too tired to discuss the reasons, but I believe they're fairly obvious considering the style and approach of my examples.
I can't drop my pants in Half Life 2 and pi<span style='color:sky'>s</span>s on a Combine Soldier. How can you call Half Life 2 realistic if I can't do something as simple as that?!
I can't drop my pants in Half Life 2 and pi<span style='color:sky'>s</span>s on a Combine Soldier. How can you call Half Life 2 realistic if I can't do something as simple as that?! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Win.
----------------
Was this thread's creation at all due to a certain other thread's lock? If so, I fear for the universe.
BTW Where is EEK he needs to rampage here, where this is the topic. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Gameplay dictates projectile and weapon function in any game, 'realistic' or not. Adding ridiculous amounts of variation, however slight to weapons, just is going to make it more frustrating to play, especially in a faster-paced combat environment like HL2 appears to be, for the most part. You've got to be more worried about the actual engagement than trying to remember which bullet type will travel faster or dip more, and calculating for said dip at the current range. That's tedious, not fun.
Also, most of this is "realistic in comparison". I.e more realistic, in certain areas, than other games. It's mostly just advertising and marketing.. we don't expect to get only one life in Counter-strike, then as soon as we die, it's over and we don't get any more EVER. And having to train for 5 years before that.
Ballistics are fun though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I can't drop my pants in Half Life 2 and pi<span style='color:sky'>s</span>s on a Combine Soldier. How can you call Half Life 2 realistic if I can't do something as simple as that?! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would actually be awesome, since HL2's water effects are so cool. Reminds me of Postal 2.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mantrid+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mantrid)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is kind of how I see your logic:
I can't drop my pants in Half Life 2 and **** on a Combine Soldier. How can you call Half Life 2 realistic if I can't do something as simple as that?!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->because the game will not require you to urinate on enemies ferquently, in fact it will not REQUIRE it for you to get through the game.. as shooting people <i>will</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin-KFS+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KFS)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gameplay dictates projectile and weapon function in any game, 'realistic' or not. Adding ridiculous amounts of variation, however slight to weapons, just is going to make it more frustrating to play, especially in a faster-paced combat environment like HL2 appears to be, for the most part. You've got to be more worried about the actual engagement than trying to remember which bullet type will travel faster or dip more, and calculating for said dip at the current range. That's tedious, not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->you don't need to do any calculating at close range.. but you DO need to lead your targets at least SOME at <b>medium to long range..</b> which, as i said above, WILL be featured in HL2.. and at long range, one-on-one combat is not usually as fast-paced as CQB.
moreover, do you think it's "ridiculous" for a box falling off a roof in HL2 to tumble and then bounce a little when it hits the floor? should it just hover to the ground as those gliding boxes in HL did?
<!--QuoteBegin-eediot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eediot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, most of this is "realistic in comparison". I.e more realistic, in certain areas, than other games. It's mostly just advertising and marketing.. we don't expect to get only one life in Counter-strike, then as soon as we die, it's over and we don't get any more EVER. And having to train for 5 years before that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->well it's just ANNOYING when games like CS and now HL2 use "real" weapons for their models (like the MP7 will be used in Hl2) but what they really ARE is laser weapons that belong in a version of Unreal Tournament.
As usual, KungFuSquirrel is 100% correct: The game design drives whether realistic ballistics are needed or if hitscan weapons will do the job just as good. Half-Life? Hitscan is just fine. BF:Vietnam? The ballistics make it much more of a challenge to hit people, which is good as it compensates for the wide open areas where you can see people from a long ways away.
With Half-Life 2's built in physics model, it most likely will be easier computationally to calculate this, but it still won't be as fast as hitscan weapons, and with so many other things in the world that can be physically interacted with, each taking up precious cpu calculations (and in network games even more important: bandwidth), I'd much rather have flying debris, deforming/breaking objects, and convincing vehicles than realistic ballistics.
Exception: One weapon I generally will agree shouldn't be hitscan is a sniper rifle. Take Battlefield 1942, where the bullets simulate ballistics to some degree. Sniping is actually HARD in that game, because you have to lead your target depending on how far away they are and how fast they are moving. This makes sniping very hard but also very rewarding if you're good at it.
But on the flip side of the coin, gamers should never, ever have to account for the wind in games. Why? Because there's no way at all for you to feel the wind blowing one way or another, or feel its intensity. This would turn aiming into a guessing game. Sure you could have a HUD element w/ a gauge on it, but that's just not any fun. Besides, most of the 'realistic' games are going for minimal HUDs anyway nowadays...
With games like Half-Life it's not.
I'm too tired to discuss the reasons, but I believe they're fairly obvious considering the style and approach of my examples. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
On that note, any idea when ofp2 is coming out? Man i loved the first one, i miss those 3-4 hour RTS map's over gamespy XD
Ofp is one of the games that will forever go under my definition of a classic game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
even better, enlist in the Marine Corps, and sign up for an Infantry contract.
Anyways, I think that ballistics should only be used in realistic HL2 mods such as Insurgency. HL2 itself does not need such a thing.
even better, enlist in the Marine Corps, and sign up for an Infantry contract.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<s>What are you a recruiter now? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> </s>
Sounds like a plan! But somehow, hunting deer seems to carry less risks. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Woa I can strike through smileys. <s>Amazing! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> </s>
even better, enlist in the Marine Corps, and sign up for an Infantry contract.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<s>What are you a recruiter now? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> </s>
Sounds like a plan! But somehow, hunting deer seems to carry less risks.
Woa I can strike through smileys. <s>Amazing! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> </s><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NEO|Phyte <s> -></s><!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <Name>
it wouldve looked better had i been able to use spaces and/or fonts properly
if you've played it, did you enjoy it? by the logic i've seen above (realism destroy game plz), NOBODY who dislikes ballistics should have enjoyed it, because they "had to break out a scientific calculator".
if you want realistic ballistics play with an fps of 15
Operation Flashpoint to Half-Life 2, OF is based on real life (more so then hl2) and HL2 is based on story and gameplay. Its not based on, ok got my gun targets moving at x speeds so I need to lead y amount at z distance. Plus also take into the fact that we can manulipate gravity in HL2, now tel me you cant make a bullet shoot out the barrel faster by manulipating gravity to the point were it would most likely hit the target before lossing any significant straight lineness effect.
Operation Flashpoint to Half-Life 2, OF is based on real life (more so then hl2) and HL2 is based on story and gameplay. Its not based on, ok got my gun targets moving at x speeds so I need to lead y amount at z distance. Plus also take into the fact that we can manulipate gravity in HL2, now tel me you cant make a bullet shoot out the barrel faster by manulipating gravity to the point were it would most likely hit the target before lossing any significant straight lineness effect. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well okay, you admit that it has crazy scifi guns and is not based on real life..
but it DOES have conventional weapons.. but they're going to work like laser guns too..
- They do have the potential to eat CPU cycles or cause network congestion, although I have no idea how bad
- They would probably be perfectly modable into any mod if the creators so desired. After all ballistic weapons are in HL and HL2, and I doubt theres anything stopping you from giving them bullet-like speeds - and gravitational arcs. And ricochet behaviour. And whatever else you wish.
And then someone will find a lag exploit and you'll have an in game 'Neo' performing matrix-esque moves with all the bullets suddenly stopping in midair in front of him. I'll keep my horribly unrealistic guns that magically teleport bullets into the enemy if it's all the same to you. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why head to Wyoming? I just head out to my backyard.
Pronunciation: b&-'lis-tiks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
1 a : the science of the motion of projectiles in flight <b>b : the flight characteristics of a projectile</b>
2 a : the study of the processes within a firearm as it is fired <b>b : the firing characteristics of a firearm or cartridge</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(for those of you who don't know gun terms.. the correct word for the <b>flight characteristics of a projectile</b> is <b><span style='color:red'>ballistics</b></span>.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>ANY new first person shooter that claims itself to be realistic or have realistic physics should have bullet velocity, windage, and drop physics - ballistics.
why, do you ask?
simple: at 1000 yards, placing the crosshairs directly on your target with, say, a .308 sniper rifle of any sort, results in these things:
1) the bullet will drop as it flies
2) wind will affect is trajectory
3) its velocity will slow somewhat
4) <b>it will take TIME</b> to get to the target.
now if you have a game with a sniper rifle that teleports bullets INSTANTLY into a target at long range.. well. somewhat ridiculous, isn't it? not having to lead your target AT ALL? not even having to compensate JUST A LITTLE at extreme range? not being able to dodge sniper fire because all he has to do is put the crosshair on you and pull the trigger, without taking into account range, velocity, drop, wind, etc.
moreover, in HL2, a 9mm round will peform the same as a .45 round. doesn't make a difference to you, huh? well.. in HL2, a .45 round will also perform the same as a .308 round... or a 20 or 30mm round from a helicopter, which is supposed to be going thousands and thousands of feet FASTER, per second.
now if you have teleporting bullets that are ALL ballistically identical.. your game, i am sorry to say, does NOT have realistic physics.. in any sense.</span></span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
= one of reasons why I like Ghost Recon like games, at least they try to make it more realistic. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->