What Is The Counter To Jps?
Zek
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">I'm honestly curious</div> With the recent re-introduction of 1.04 JPs in Beta 5, this question needs to be answered. What is the intended alien counter for jetpacks? There is no more frustrating way to lose as an alien than to a JP rush that you couldn't stop even though your whole team was there, because you were in a big hive room and you just couldn't hit them frequently enough. There needs to be an effective counter; something that gives Aliens the upper hand if they were properly prepared for the rush. JPs were turned into a pretty hard counter for Onoses; shouldn't they have one as well? So, what is it supposed to be?
Webs are exempt because hive 3 is an unrealistic dream in most games. Skulk, Lerks and Fades are the only ones capable of hitting a jetpack in midair, and even for the most skilled player, trying to kill a decent JPer with nothing but Flight/Leap/Blink is largely luck. Probably the most effective, reliable way to stop a JP rush is a large number of OCs, enough to cover every area of the room. However, getting that sort of a defense is much too expensive to be a reasonable counter, and JP/GLs will still make short work of your huge investment.
I'm no expert when it comes to balance, but I know what isn't fun, and watching your hive die while the whole team tries in vain to pick JPs out of the sky is <i><u>not</u></i> fun. An alien team that is well prepared for a JP rush should be able to stop it effectively, without investing 80+ res in a big OC farm.
Webs are exempt because hive 3 is an unrealistic dream in most games. Skulk, Lerks and Fades are the only ones capable of hitting a jetpack in midair, and even for the most skilled player, trying to kill a decent JPer with nothing but Flight/Leap/Blink is largely luck. Probably the most effective, reliable way to stop a JP rush is a large number of OCs, enough to cover every area of the room. However, getting that sort of a defense is much too expensive to be a reasonable counter, and JP/GLs will still make short work of your huge investment.
I'm no expert when it comes to balance, but I know what isn't fun, and watching your hive die while the whole team tries in vain to pick JPs out of the sky is <i><u>not</u></i> fun. An alien team that is well prepared for a JP rush should be able to stop it effectively, without investing 80+ res in a big OC farm.
Comments
For more open rooms, you'll have to lame them up and get fades to address the threat.
It's not hard to kill a lone JPer as a fade in a large room, you have the advantage of more manueverability.
Focus really does work wonders against jetpacks.
Too bad almost none of the hives are cramped rooms.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For more open rooms, you'll have to lame them up and get fades to address the threat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. You need a lot of OCs, which is way more expensive than most alien teams can afford. Only a team that has a huge advantage over marines in res can do that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not hard to kill a lone JPer as a fade in a large room, you have the advantage of more manueverability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, you can kill him eventually. If his target is the hive, he'll do a good deal of damage to it by then. Throw in a couple more JP/Shotties, and you have to kill them <i>fast</i> to save the hive. JP rushes are like Shotty rushes, without the disadvantage of being ineffective if you lose the surprise element.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Focus really does work wonders against jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Diablo_fx+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablo_fx)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fades and if you still don't manage to catch them get (you need to be better) get focus.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about Classic here. I'm sure I don't need to explain why Focus is also not usually a realistic suggestion. Also, if the skill requirement for killing a JP with the best counter in the game is so much higher than that of actually flying a JP, something is wrong.
Cele onos, everything else dies.
Adren fade, or you cant follow these hummingbirds around
Cele lerk, or the JP is faster, great, so no focus!
Edit: and now that JP is a hard counter to onos (no longer stompable) i think aliens need a hard counter against JPs, too!
You'll have a lerk spam umbra on the hive, of course, and spore around the place like crazy.
Meanwhile have your onos and fades amble about trying to get lucky hit in.
It'll shake itself out. JPs aren't the end-all be-all you make them out to be.
If the comm isn't helping the JP's with med packs, and they are **** enough that they can't kill a hive quickly with shotties or HMG's, maybe lerk spores could be considered a counter *rolls eyes*
this would bring ocs more into early games use. not as effective for blocking areas or wall of lame becuase of lower health but a good early warning system, jp counter, and res defense.
10 res plus 10 res for a gorge is hardly worth it
right now in competive matches ocs are a luxury that usaully come late in the game as insurance against ninja phases and the jps of desperration
And even if they do stay on the ground a bit, just one second on the ground can mean certain death for a jetpacker.
And I didn't list anything as counter to JP, I listed what was available to attack JP's, never said they work.
If I'm an alien trying to take down a jetpacker and I see a couple of meds being dropped in a specific area, I'm going to camp that place because odds are that moron of a jetpacker will go there.
I still remember knifing down a hive after finishing emptying a HMG clip into it, never touching the ground. <3 fps bug
Teamwork.
I like the new the jps. Sure they’re the death calling for an onos, but onoses are very strong now and they needed an answer: JPS. The two level each other out, 1 competent team gets jp first they win. 1 competent team gets onos first they win. Like always its been a race scenario.
As to the answer of using oc’s against a jp. Oc’s are a method of distracting a jp with their main goal; to kill the hive. When a jp has to dodge spikes from oc’s and blinking fades and maybe leaping skulks; its very hard.
As to fades and skulks being incapable of hitting a competent jp, get some skill. If you have a competent team you’ll have a 2nd hive with leap. If not you would of lost anyway if the marines were that far in their tech tree.
There was always the easy answer of countering air against air. Being a lerk, its very easy to kill a jper, use spore to gas him; getting rid of their armour. Then if they try and attack your hive just chase em till they run out of juice then your teammates can attack him.
Leave the jp the way it is, its not total balance but at least its close.
If I'm an alien trying to take down a jetpacker and I see a couple of meds being dropped in a specific area, I'm going to camp that place because odds are that moron of a jetpacker will go there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
try thinking in game terms mate, if a skulk camping a med pile is doing just that, then when a JPer needs meds, it's not going to be hard for him to kill that skulk, then take the meds.
Lerks are the nearest to counters, but given how early JP's are turning up with massive weaponry, there is not really a chance.
my suggestion to give the aliens a better chance to catch JPers is to beef up the OC and give them back a few selected raged attacks. Give the lerk back his spikes and let him use his bite at hive 1. His other abilitys are quite okay. His spike should be a little weaker than before, as they were before they were removed. The bite should remain for abush attacks and for inflicting damage to buildings fast abush kills. The spikes should only be a useable solution to get JPers easier and probably to keep those shotgun rambos at range.
The fade acid rocket with its splash damage would also be good for this task but actually its a wothless "upgrade" give the good ole AR with its high damage (and of course the slower fireingrate and the higher adrenaline cost) back to the fade. Its okay for me to see it at hive 3 as improoved ranged attack for the aliens.
this would give much balance to the game since the marines still have their <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As everyone knows.
Oc's block doorways.
When they attack it, look at your hivesight. Go teamwork kill the jp. WOw how hard!
I see alot of these threads nowadays, about countering and its too hard.
When NS in the early days had THINKERS we didnt talk about "WE NEED COUNTER OMG" we used teamwork.
Oc's. Hivesight. Ambush. How hard.
And onos is an easy counter for jetpacks.
Go take out the protolab.
OMG whats the counter to onos.
Turrets.
OMG whats the counter for turrents!
omg bilebomb
omg whats counter for gorge!
omg everything!\
It all goes down to teamwork.
Or take out thier res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->my suggestion to give the aliens a better chance to catch JPers is to beef up the OC and give them back a few selected raged attacks. Give the lerk back his spikes and let him use his bite at hive 1<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we can have another thread entitled?
"What is the Counter to Lerk?"
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*jaw drops open in shock*
Let's go through this step by step.
You say "Assume the jetpackers will kill the hive". That was the mission of the jetpackers. The alien side is now down to one hive. Suddenly the "dangerous" onos is now a 10 ton punching bag that is worse than useless because he blocks stuff. Your skulks can't leap any more, thus almost dooming any base assult by them. No more umbra and heavy weapons just dominate the aliens even more. Bile bombs absence denies gorges the ability to destroy elec res nodes without a fade (yes you can use regen but it takes forever).
Furthermore you lose a tremendous amount of map manuverability AND a second spawning location, both of which are invaluable. 1 hive aliens vs marines at the level where they can get jetpacks = marine victory. And that's not even taking into account the fact that you've lost one or two nodes once the hive dies plus chambers in the hive. Because without alien re-enforcements in the region, everything in the hive vicinity is dead within a few minutes of the hive dying. And you can't get there fast enough without MC teleportation, especially when the marines have phase gates set up, which any jetpacker can build.
"Win the resource war". This actually had me laughing. To think that the alien side can win a war of resources against the marines. For starters, alien res nodes cost 15, same as marine nodes, but there is a) a hidden cost of 10 additional res for going gorge and b) that's from a personal res collection, not a shared pool. The marines can build more nodes far more easily and cheaply than the alien side can, and they do. Furthermore, marine nodes are quite tough (5000 hp) and can be upgraded to render them virtually immune to skulks and lerks. The alien node is very weak (1500 hp) and cannot be upgraded the same way: an investment of 30+ res at a node is simply not an option for an alien team that is constantly strapped for res because the marines can kill alien nodes so easily.
Simply put, going jetpacks for the marines isn't a risky option, because there is no counter until webs, and seriously given the size of hive rooms 5 webs is pathetically unable to defend the hive. Yes, some might die, but you can afford to replace them because most of the alien side is trapped in their hive desperatly trying to kill lone jetpackers. Meanwhile the rest of the marine side is off quietly knifing res nodes and expanding their territory. As an alien you could go off and try and stop them (it's probably going to be a better useage of your time) but reduce the number of people in the hive leaping, blinking and spitting and your already slim chances of bringing those flying vacuums down drop to near nothing.
OCs are not a viable counter because as we have already discussed, OCs are far too expensive to place all around a hive. At most you can have 3 - 4 without crippling your team, and that will not stop a skilled jetpacker with a compitant commander. Plus if you put them in your hive, guess where they're not: around your res nodes. Jetpack-shotgunners do a fantastic job of assassinating res nodes, and even if they die, it's still a net gain for the marines, because losing that node hurts the alien side so much.
Lerks are not a counter because jetpacks are so fast and erratic. You never know which way they're going to turn and swoop and dodge; actually landing a bite is difficult. You can't get focus because of DMS, and that's not going to change any time soon. Spores can help, but good commanders can medspam their jetpackers in flight, thus negating spores. Umbra keeps getting slapped with the nerf stick, but I guess it helps somewhat against shotguns (against GLs is a differant matter).
Blinking Fades can work, but much like Lerks they suffer from inability to predict where the jetpacker is going to be and blink accordingly. I've rarely seen Fades bring jetpackers down, and I do play with some very skilled Fades.
It's not enough to simply say "Use more teamwork". I play on alien teams that use constant voice communication and work as a team throughout the whole game. These are not bad players; some are clanners some are pubbers but all are compitant. We cannot stop jetpacks with the tactics described in this thread.
Anyway, the best counter I could fine is attrition. Ryo pretty much explains the problems with the "supposed" counter to jps. If your skill isn't top notch, you better wait for the jp to fall and get the bite, it's the only way.
What I'd like to do is if it's a small passage and a small doorway, I like to stand at the doorway, so the jper is trapped in front of me and when he lands, get the swipes in.
You said if the hive dies you lose leap and umbra. Please forgive me if I made an error, I was assuming we were talking about jetpacks attacking before the second hive was ready. If you lose to jetpacks with umbra and leap then you deserve to die is all I can say.
I have participated in defeating jetpacks with 1 hive several times since beta5 came out using the principles I pointed out in my previous post. Feel free to mock me or not beleive me its your loss.
I thought this was a thread about maximizing the potential to beat a certain attack, not one about whining to nerf evil jp, the game is how it is until the patch comes. If I was wrong please forgive me again.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>BABBLERS</span></span>
Teamwork is great for taking down JP's though. I'm in complete agreement there. Of course, as someone already mentioned, one JP will occupy at least 1 precious minute of time that could be spent defending that RT that's being knifed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I can't. It's like beating my head against a brick wall. I sit here and patiently explain to you *WHY* leap and umbra don't help. Argue amongst yourselves ladies, I'm not going to try and debate this any more.
That is why i feel jps are fine as they arnt econimcaly viable untill aliens have 2 hives up and are able to combat the reasonably well. (celer fades are fine to tacle jps)
Remember that the skill curve for a good JP is much shallower than that for a good fade.
Given that that hive grants extra healing to the aliens near it, I tend to feel that if it takes 2 or more aliens (between 30 - 60 res each) to take out one JP (15 res + weapon), at the hive, then there's something of an imbalance here. Simply being at the hive should give something of an advantage, yes?
If not however, if a single fade can reliably take down a single JP at similar skill levels, it probably isn't a balance problem.
Now fun is something else entirely. I know I have trouble even keeping track of a JP in the hive area. Then again, I don't play with insane gamma levels either.. dark is actually dark, and black is _black_. Then again maybe this is just one of those things where the frame-rate is important.