That's 24 armor, you keep it up from a distance, it's going to get annoying and it'll cause marines to whip out the welder or the commander to drop more medpacks.
There are times when spores are better than spikes, there are times when spikes will be better than spores.
Give us that versatility.
As we've heard before, the lerk is a support unit, it isn't supposed to go in the thick of the battle. Spikes wear down armor, so do spores, give us both. They are useful in different circumstances, and they aren't powerful enough to kill on their own, but they are very useful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is if a fade doesn't show up at 4-5 minutes<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a gap at say around 3 min to 6 min where the 2nd hive is usually building but not up, and the rines have a few upgrades (Armour 1, Guns 1 or 2 and phase or motion). Leap it very good ill agree it pretty much ensures 1 or 2 hits on a rine minimum. If u think about it (assuming you dont have silence) all leap is is a distance closer between skulk and rines and imo what leap at 2nd hive corrects is the inability of skulks to ambush effectively in many cases(its pretty hard to hide in the HL engine).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spikes are boring and worthless, to be quite honest. They're about as lethal as spores, but you have to aim them and they only hit one target. Wooo-hooo<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But with spikes 1 HA by its self is dead... Yes spikes dont do much damage, yes spores are good; But the inability for individual marines to heal themselves means that they can be quite useful. They can also be used to kill phases and TF's from afar, an ability that is lacking at 1 hive unless u have 50 res. Also u get 2 or more lerks and spike starts to deal alot of damage. It would be nice for aliens to have a ranged weapon that hurts buildings/HA/rines(excluding gorge spit and bile) at 2 hives or less the only one is Acid roket at 3 hives.
Spikes were superb for whittling down HA armour. Just like spores are superb for whittling down LA armour. Spikes and spores might not get kills that often, but combined the lerk was an excellent support unit. I'd take spikes over bite any day. Biteing a HA = dead lerk. They can't take any punishment. Forcing a 30 res lifeform to go into meele when they die from one shotgun blast is just silly.
If a leet player fades his god-like skill will turn the tide of the game in favour of aliens. From then on in no marine structure is safe from a single gorge, and with the advent of MC & stomp onos become devistating
If a fade is a noob and he ****d instead of getting res (and forcing the leet players to get res) then it may be gg, time to F4. While it is expected that a good player will always pwn the learning curve on fade is pretty steep, and there is a thin line between blinking away to fight again and a total waste of 50 res <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Sep 14 2004, 07:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Sep 14 2004, 07:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Bluee+Sep 14 2004, 06:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bluee @ Sep 14 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Onos carapace buff? I am a big time Onos player myself, and let me tell you, that carapace buff is useless.
In NS, carapace isn't an option for the Onos since he needs regen's massive healing power. Trust me, I've been stuck with the new carapace as an Onos, and it isn't a good combination.
In Combat, HMGs do godly damage to a Cara/Regen to the Onos anyways. The extra carapace is a very miniscule amount of protection when faced to the godliness of the HMG.
Problem? HMG. Solution? Half damage to Onos, ala structures, since the Onos is quite large enough to be a structure anyways. In the current state as an Onos, the HMG feels like it does double damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah what's an extra 600 dmg anyways <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering a cara-ono dies with armour (several times I got left with 220 armour and 0 health), it's REALLY useless, consider rines usually focus-fire on onos, all the cara does in reality is give the ono another 3 seconds of life span.
Spikes fired one at a time. Furthermore, a lerk's got umbra for HA/HMGs. If you don't have 2 hives by the time they've got HA, things are looking pretty grim regardless. Umbra and other aliens make lerks a big ol' pain in the bum for any heavy train.
Yeah, for once I'm in agreement with the elitist crew on something, spikes definitely sucked. Bite allows far more versatility than spikes do. Also, spikes will be like a nerf for the lerk, especially for combat. That's the last thing that the lerk needs.
If you know how to lerk well (and I admit, I'm still working on perfecting my classic lerk) then you understand that bite is far better than spikes, even when faced with HA. If the game was a little more balanced and had longer gameplay time, a lerk would not even need to worry about taking down an HA train <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Give the skulks an AP buff, drop OC cost, improve OC aimbot, give Onos more HP to coincide with the carapace boost so the Onos doesn't die with 220 carapace left, lock Onos at hive 2, and balance fade to a more appropriate level.
Don't freak out about the fade thing, if the other lifeforms are better balanced, the jesus ninja will create a really bad imbalance the other way.
I dont know... I would like to see spikes come back and the lork have
Bite Spike Umbra/Spore combined as mentioned b 4 Primal Skreeeeeeeeeeem (which is useless imo beacuse its gg by the time it turs up, like all 3 hive abilities except webbage)
may need some slight changes to make it balances after these changes. I would just like to see a ranged attack (that can hurt buildings aas well... no flaming about gorge spit pls <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) at 1 hive. Would make aliens a little more diverse which can only be a good think imo
I agree with Skyrage completely. I've been playing NS since day one, and I've had many great battles with both the marines and the kahaara. But I believe that the Khaara have always had a style of play that had to be learned, unlike the marines, which I feel are the beginner's generic unite of choice. With the exception of commander, the skills needed to play marine can be developed from most any FPS today, while the melee attacks of the Khaara are a skill that has to be developed inside of the game.
To get to my point. The skills needed for the Khaara can't very well be developed if you have to play only for 5 or 10 mins like some people suggest you should if you win as Khaara. I think that in order to make the Khaara last into the late game, something must be done to beef up the high end units, or some nerfing of the Marines is in order. I recently played a game where this rang true, and the Tank turned Obesity Fairy <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> was extremely obese. In this game we played for about 90 mins. The majority of the time was spent between 3 onos hiding around corners and hopping out and eating the occasional passerby. On the occasions that the Onos did happen to venture out to greet the waiting marines he was usually slaughtered on his way to them, or raped from the air by the overly manuverable JP/HMG combo. Given the devastating power of the HMG there was very little that my team, the Kharra, could do agains the jet pack marines that would either track down and salughter pairs of Onos or get a Grenade Launcher and spam the base with a fly by. I spent most of this game watching because it took so ungodly long to spawn, and when I did I was frequently greeted with a face full of either grenade or HMG flak. Even our wall of OC's didn't stand up to the JP'ers, who just floated over them and flew on in, like an unwanted house guest. The only thing we could use to stop them, has now been linked to the third hive, which was an entire impossibility to us. So we took to the gorges <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> , in my opinion possibly the strongest Khaara unit, and built OC's all over everthing, but the siege cannons <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> destroyed them and eventually we were coralled into our last hive for our last stand. Which involved our Onoses being slaughtered at the door, via Heavy Armor HMG marines, and then the rest of our units being destroyed. Following this we proceeded to spawn intermittently and be fed HMG ammunition, and then watch the hive die slowly as the Heavies sat and watched the Siege cannons take it out while standing in our spawn.
.....Lather, Rise, Repeat.
My point is, without web or and entirely twitchy Lerk player, there is almost no way of stopping the JPers from walking all over anything they want, especially with a health spamming comm to aid them.
I think the real problem at hand here is a lack of SPIKES.
Consider 2.01: Lerks had spikes. Aliens had a chance of winning.
Does anyone else see the connection!?
All kidding aside, it looks as though 3.0 on a whole has been nothing but buffs for the Marines. What have the aliens received? BUG FIXES, and even being able to bilebomb from vents isn't going to prevent you from getting pwn3d when you get stuck on any number of stupid points in a map and can only wait for a marine to come around because THERE IS NO /STUCK AHGSJKGKFGHKJGHS. Ahem.
I would love to have spikes back on the lerk, but definately not at in trade for bite. The unique combination of melee, range, and movement is what makes the lerk fun.
The reason I like spike better than spore is because spike takes some skill, and there is no situation in which it is totally useless. Personally I like the idea of combining spore and umbra to make room for spike.
You have to be very careful increasing the strength of alien units though, if you make a fade so that it won't die in the hands of a newbie, then a good player will be unstoppable. Imo the best balance change would be to make gorges cheaper in order to help the aliens recover from lost nodes in the mid game. The problem now isn't that new fades die and good fades own, its that when the new fade dies aliens are totally screwed. Its just not right that the entire team strategy depends so much on one unit, but at the same time fades SHOULD die or where is the hope for marines?
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
I would definitely trade bite for spikes if I had to, but I would rather (much rather) see primal scream go.
So, this is how lerk should be:
95/80 health (thats a pretty big buff to health, it makes the lerk have 255 health at hive 1 - thats almost 1/2 as much as fade). 30 res. Attacks: Bite. Spikes. Spores. Umbra.
Of course, spores and umbra would need to be buffed.
Has anyone played on the servers with the spikes plugins? You find it works pretty well with the new flight model, considering that if you don't press any directional keys it flys up and slightly forward, or you can turn around and keep going...
Every alien should have good change to kill marines <b>without</b> upgrades.
For example, a skulk is quite good withot any upgrades, even in the late game (the carapage doesn't do much agains LVL 3 SG or HMG), gorge can survive without regen or carapage also (get a gorgefriend to heal you, or setup a healing station)...
But the onos is another thing. Onos really needs Celerity to boost it's speed and Carapage or Regeneration to retain it's health. Please boost the speed of onos near to the level of Celerity, and concider to upgrade healt/armor levels also.
My comments below are about Natural Selection. In my oponion Combat is a good time waster, fun for a few rounds, but thats it. I would love to see a return of spikes. As has been raised before, the Lerk is a support class. It's other 3 skills reflect this fact, but bite is a bit unreasonable. Not going to talk about the realism of such a tiny mouth biting your leg twice to kill you or anything, as its not about realism. But the fact that, as already mentioned, a 30 res lifeform should have to fly in and bite people is quite silly. Spikes offered an excellent counter against JP's, and whilst JP's arent seen on 1.04 scales anymore, they would still be excellent for picking off marines in support of your other team mates. How often do you see a HA train with LA's at the back welding, as the comm is short on res. With spikes and gas, these LA's would have to play a lot differently then they do now (which is basically duck behind HA's constantly welding) and would give 1 hive aliens a way to severly punish HA trains. Not to mention that the spikes soon add up on HA when combined with other aliens. If the HA are welding each other, then thats time they arent shooting skulks/structures. If they arent welding each other they are getting whittled away by Lerks. As to the combat arguement, of course you Combaters dont wanna lose Bite! It makes a skilled player near godlike on combat. Lerk with celerity, silence, focus, sof, regen and cara and umbra is almost unbeatable, as they are so fast, they just gas, umbra, fly in, bite you once or twice, and fly off. Rinse and repeat. But i would much rather see Natural Selection balanced and Combat lerk nerfed than vice versa. The fact is, in Combat the Lerk is a high speed assault fighter, whilst in NS its a support role. Also, with Electricity now in, spikes give the Lerk a chance to attack RT's and PG's protected by electricity. Whilst not doin that much damage, if you get desperate it can work.
As to the fades it's very hard to nerf them so that a good player is no longer godlike early to mid game, and a new player doesn't die more than he does now. The attempt with the nerf of Blink didn't work all to well, as the good players just ensure they have enough energy for a quick getaway, whilst the new players die even quicker when they try to blink off with no petrol as it were. Only thing i could think of off the top of my head was an increase to 55 or 60ish res, with a small (15-25) armour boost.
One more point. Bring back the old acid rocket! Acid rocket kills were common in 1.04 but they are rare now. I can only assume Flaystar is looking at the AR, with the amount of moaning going on in the community, but it needs a longer cool and lots more damage, just like days of old.
Actually, I'm an alien supporter and I'd still like to see an alien nerf.
Specifically, I'd like to see the fade nerfed.
Why? Because it would mean we could buff up all the other aliens so that those who don't like playing the fade have a chance of being significant as well.
as ns stands at the moments (and assuming DMS in that order) it is all up to a fade (or 2) to save the day while the 2nd hive is building. imo onos at 1 hive is not viable. It is too slow and redeem is too big a risk, especially if a group of about 3 sg'ers are on the loose. Skulks soon become out gunned due to rine upgrades and the lerk (if any 1 was silly enough to waste the 30 res) is left to chuckle in the nearest vent while his adrenaline recharges ;(
This wont happen every game, but it is the most common outcome. I felt betrayed when the latest update didnt address more gameplay issues...
Paper_tiger, the entire point of b5 was bug fixes.
Spikes are rediculous. Spores and bite > spikes any day. If they gave lerks a slight speed buff, made the amount of adren used per flap 1/2 of what it is now, and upped the HP/AP by like 10 %, lerk would be a better combat unit. I'd consider spikes a nerf, since they don't do anything except make the lerk feel useful when it should be terrorizing MS with gas or making some nice hallways of green death that marines have to walk through.
Bah, spikes.
I'm all for taking down the HP/AP of the fade at this point, as long as the other classes get the buff that they need.
Skulk: speed increase of 7 %, AP + 10. This allows for skulks to have a better chance of closing the distance to a marine, which is the trouble most skulks have at this point.
Gorge: no buff needed, but this should only take 5 res to evolve to.
Lerk: as I said, up the HP/AP by 10%, give a speed increase of around 5%, and enable lerks to flight backwards!
Fade: Nerf the HP/AP by 10%-15%, maybe make metabolize use up more energy.
Onos: Onos starting out has 900 HP, 650 AP.
OC: better aimbot so they're better for hive defense, cost 7 res instead of 10.
<b>Balanced and more scalable res system for Kharaa.</b>
Balancing 6 vs 6 was such a bad idea, especially when the game is at its most fun 10 vs 10 or 12 vs 12.
The only thing I'd like nerfed for both Kharaa and marines is SoF/MT. Those things ruin the game so much.
I know it was to fix bugs but it took soooooo long to come out... Alot of people were really disapointed (including me) with the lack of game play enhancements/balancing. I know alot of ppl on the servers I usually play on (i can think of 10 or so players with a year or more experience that said "bollocks to this im outa here") who stopped playing caus of it. Sure new ppl joined but it would be better to have the old and the new still playing.
The other thing is some of the so called "fixes" are not that good, or more important ones were missed i.e. the double upgrade bug for marine arms lab... etc. I also think they waisted time making res points silent in the 1st min or so. U can still hear the aliens spawn and the skulks all running at the start hive if u are the comm... i.e. useless, time wasting attempted fix.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->maybe make metabolize use up more energy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hmmmm... strange metabolize gives me energy, not uses it up. Your fade must be broken, I would suggest returning it to your hive of purchase <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bah, spikes<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We all know they dont do alot of damage but spore+bite wont kill HA unless he is a retard. Also aliens have no long range weapon that deals damage across the board, without 3 hives.
slight skulk speed up would be ok... I feel at the start they are tough enough (but later on is a different story though)
Fades... the eternal problem. I dont feel fades are too tough sometimes. Flying into a group of SG or HMG even if u take no swipes and try to retreat can be fatal. THey dont last long at all really if they are getting hit. The problem is hitting them though at time b4 before they run and heal ( i dont know how to fix this).The other problem I see is the fact that at the time they first appear in the game they absolutely own single marines (probably 2 or 3 marines depending on skill), undefended tf's (no matter how many turrets) and elec res points. This pretty much covers all the ways marines get res and hold hives...
Oc's need some help too i think. U can always stand out of their range or at a corner without them firing at you.... Always!!! The best features about them are they alert you if they are being attacked (which tells you what the rines are up to) and stopping Jp rushes on hives (if u build them on top of/around the hive) I think 10 res is ok... otherwise at the start gorges could build 2 each and they could block too many paths off. They do need some wort in the "aimbot" department though imo.
MT is really good, a little too good sometimes I think considering u can get it at the start. SOF is similar but it comes at the cost of focus or cloak which can also be useful, so I think it has to be good enough or it will be redundant (and in turn never used).
I think it will be hard to balance the game for any number of players. It would be best to get it perfect for the 6 V 6, and have a better scaling resource model for large/smaller games.
Well, the whole problem with fades is blink...therein lies the whole skilldifference, and the power of the fade. I agree that the fade should be nerfed somehow/redesigned (not fatally). The old blink that the fade had would be excellent to have...if it was to be fixed somehow...
As for the lerk: I really don't see why it should be yet another melee creature. It certainly isn't a support unit if it has to rely on spores/bite. It is then a melee unit just like any other lifeform. Plain and simple. And for 30 res, it's a way too risky of a unit to use in close combat. All it takes is one shotgunner to take a lerk down in a couple of seconds. All the marine has to do is ignore the spores and even the umbra in order to achieve this.
I would love to see a Motion Tracking nerf. Ideas i had were maybe a limited range from the obs or marine, and it doesnt detect walking or silenced creatures. Another one i heard was maybe have a MT device like in Aliens, so one marine has to walk with this equipped, and any marines in close proximity to him get MT. These can be given out at a low cost (or maybe everyone gets one once equipped) and would only work on a limited area around the user, and only when equipped. The latter is a bit radical but the former is good.
Aliens do not need another shock trooper, the Fade accomplishes this very well. What it needs is a dedicated support class and Spikes are much more useful for supporting the big creatures than bite is. Flying in with bite often jsut gets in the way of the fades/onos. A lerk can fire a constant stream of spikes at HA which are busy engaging an Onos, and a large group of early shottgunners can be decimated by a spike/spore combo.
*sigh* this is a cyclical argument at the moment... spore > spike no wait spike > spore no wait spore > spike . . .
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate spikes, spore is the new god<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I am affraid that you are worshipping a lesser deity MamboKing. Your god cant hurt HA or buildings...
Or they could just get rid of primal scream and have the best of both worlds. That would solve that problem. I don't think anyone uses primal scream anyway. But then the problem is where to distibute the abilities. Personally I would say put bite and spikes for the first two followed by spores and umbra last since most of the time the only real need for it is in the mid to late game when the fatties with Hmgs come out.
Spores are more useful early game than spikes. Sporing a group of marines requires less effort and more safety than spikes. Umbra is needed for hive 2 because a hive 2 Onos or Fade will probably need that cover if they're taking down a hive lockdown.
Primal Scream is pretty useless....
Personally, I think lerks should be able to grab LA marines and carry them places. That would be the most awesome abillity...<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Imo bring spikes back instead of bite... You all may have your reasons, but I agree with those above that the aliens need a ranged, even if they do 10 damage as they did in 2.0 (didn't play much 1.04 lerk so I dont know how much they did then if they differed) then it would still be usefull, gas + spike will still get you many a kill... I remember 2.01 a lerk on.. lets say caged for an example, could completely crush a shotgun rush where a fade could not, unless they were being watched by their commander that knew how to med (back when you could DROP THEM ON THE MARINE, but thats a sep. argument) that entire group would be ripped to shreds in a matter of 20 seconds.
While lerk bite does 50 damage now, i do agree it's suicidal to do it unless it's in a small hallway, you have celerity, and you come frmo behind to bite a couple times, spore, and fly off. Being a support class lifeform having bite just doesn't make sense to me, the gorge (also a support class!) has a ranged attack, a short ranged attack(healspray, lol), and an anti-building attack. With bilebomb only affecting buildings, and the lerk without ranged, the only real threat to heavies is a skilled fade to blink in, swipe, blink out, repeat, or a celerity onos that likes to suicidally devour someone and run off... Whereas in 2.01 you could sit in a vent as a lerk and spike to your content and fly off when nades were launched, and then continue your assault on them, **** them off, making them weld (*SUPPORT*ing the alien team by slowing the heavies down, definition of support class, anyone? low damage but distracting.) and effectively "snaring" them, so to say.
Even if it doesn't do any damage, it's ranged, hard to see, and helps to counter and actually gives reason to be lerk once again... only reason to lerk now is in dire need of umbra on hive (which still isnt enough for most people to lerk) or to crush a team of lights (or annoy the hell out of marine start armory sex).
Comments
3*16=48.
It's not that hard to aim a spike...
That's 24 armor, you keep it up from a distance, it's going to get annoying and it'll cause marines to whip out the welder or the commander to drop more medpacks.
There are times when spores are better than spikes, there are times when spikes will be better than spores.
Give us that versatility.
As we've heard before, the lerk is a support unit, it isn't supposed to go in the thick of the battle. Spikes wear down armor, so do spores, give us both. They are useful in different circumstances, and they aren't powerful enough to kill on their own, but they are very useful.
There is a gap at say around 3 min to 6 min where the 2nd hive is usually building but not up, and the rines have a few upgrades (Armour 1, Guns 1 or 2 and phase or motion). Leap it very good ill agree it pretty much ensures 1 or 2 hits on a rine minimum. If u think about it (assuming you dont have silence) all leap is is a distance closer between skulk and rines and imo what leap at 2nd hive corrects is the inability of skulks to ambush effectively in many cases(its pretty hard to hide in the HL engine).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spikes are boring and worthless, to be quite honest. They're about as lethal as spores, but you have to aim them and they only hit one target. Wooo-hooo<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But with spikes 1 HA by its self is dead... Yes spikes dont do much damage, yes spores are good; But the inability for individual marines to heal themselves means that they can be quite useful. They can also be used to kill phases and TF's from afar, an ability that is lacking at 1 hive unless u have 50 res. Also u get 2 or more lerks and spike starts to deal alot of damage. It would be nice for aliens to have a ranged weapon that hurts buildings/HA/rines(excluding gorge spit and bile) at 2 hives or less the only one is Acid roket at 3 hives.
I'd only like to see more of a balance between the fade and other life forms.
If a leet player fades his god-like skill will turn the tide of the game in favour of aliens. From then on in no marine structure is safe from a single gorge, and with the advent of MC & stomp onos become devistating
If a fade is a noob and he ****d instead of getting res (and forcing the leet players to get res) then it may be gg, time to F4. While it is expected that a good player will always pwn the learning curve on fade is pretty steep, and there is a thin line between blinking away to fight again and a total waste of 50 res <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In NS, carapace isn't an option for the Onos since he needs regen's massive healing power. Trust me, I've been stuck with the new carapace as an Onos, and it isn't a good combination.
In Combat, HMGs do godly damage to a Cara/Regen to the Onos anyways. The extra carapace is a very miniscule amount of protection when faced to the godliness of the HMG.
Problem? HMG. Solution? Half damage to Onos, ala structures, since the Onos is quite large enough to be a structure anyways. In the current state as an Onos, the HMG feels like it does double damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah what's an extra 600 dmg anyways <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering a cara-ono dies with armour (several times I got left with 220 armour and 0 health), it's REALLY useless, consider rines usually focus-fire on onos, all the cara does in reality is give the ono another 3 seconds of life span.
If you know how to lerk well (and I admit, I'm still working on perfecting my classic lerk) then you understand that bite is far better than spikes, even when faced with HA. If the game was a little more balanced and had longer gameplay time, a lerk would not even need to worry about taking down an HA train <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Give the skulks an AP buff, drop OC cost, improve OC aimbot, give Onos more HP to coincide with the carapace boost so the Onos doesn't die with 220 carapace left, lock Onos at hive 2, and balance fade to a more appropriate level.
Don't freak out about the fade thing, if the other lifeforms are better balanced, the jesus ninja will create a really bad imbalance the other way.
Bite
Spike
Umbra/Spore combined as mentioned b 4
Primal Skreeeeeeeeeeem (which is useless imo beacuse its gg by the time it turs up, like all 3 hive abilities except webbage)
may need some slight changes to make it balances after these changes. I would just like to see a ranged attack (that can hurt buildings aas well... no flaming about gorge spit pls <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) at 1 hive. Would make aliens a little more diverse which can only be a good think imo
To get to my point. The skills needed for the Khaara can't very well be developed if you have to play only for 5 or 10 mins like some people suggest you should if you win as Khaara. I think that in order to make the Khaara last into the late game, something must be done to beef up the high end units, or some nerfing of the Marines is in order. I recently played a game where this rang true, and the Tank turned Obesity Fairy <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> was extremely obese. In this game we played for about 90 mins. The majority of the time was spent between 3 onos hiding around corners and hopping out and eating the occasional passerby. On the occasions that the Onos did happen to venture out to greet the waiting marines he was usually slaughtered on his way to them, or raped from the air by the overly manuverable JP/HMG combo. Given the devastating power of the HMG there was very little that my team, the Kharra, could do agains the jet pack marines that would either track down and salughter pairs of Onos or get a Grenade Launcher and spam the base with a fly by. I spent most of this game watching because it took so ungodly long to spawn, and when I did I was frequently greeted with a face full of either grenade or HMG flak. Even our wall of OC's didn't stand up to the JP'ers, who just floated over them and flew on in, like an unwanted house guest. The only thing we could use to stop them, has now been linked to the third hive, which was an entire impossibility to us. So we took to the gorges <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> , in my opinion possibly the strongest Khaara unit, and built OC's all over everthing, but the siege cannons <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> destroyed them and eventually we were coralled into our last hive for our last stand. Which involved our Onoses being slaughtered at the door, via Heavy Armor HMG marines, and then the rest of our units being destroyed. Following this we proceeded to spawn intermittently and be fed HMG ammunition, and then watch the hive die slowly as the Heavies sat and watched the Siege cannons take it out while standing in our spawn.
.....Lather, Rise, Repeat.
My point is, without web or and entirely twitchy Lerk player, there is almost no way of stopping the JPers from walking all over anything they want, especially with a health spamming comm to aid them.
Consider 2.01:
Lerks had spikes.
Aliens had a chance of winning.
Does anyone else see the connection!?
All kidding aside, it looks as though 3.0 on a whole has been nothing but buffs for the Marines. What have the aliens received? BUG FIXES, and even being able to bilebomb from vents isn't going to prevent you from getting pwn3d when you get stuck on any number of stupid points in a map and can only wait for a marine to come around because THERE IS NO /STUCK AHGSJKGKFGHKJGHS. Ahem.
The reason I like spike better than spore is because spike takes some skill, and there is no situation in which it is totally useless. Personally I like the idea of combining spore and umbra to make room for spike.
You have to be very careful increasing the strength of alien units though, if you make a fade so that it won't die in the hands of a newbie, then a good player will be unstoppable. Imo the best balance change would be to make gorges cheaper in order to help the aliens recover from lost nodes in the mid game. The problem now isn't that new fades die and good fades own, its that when the new fade dies aliens are totally screwed. Its just not right that the entire team strategy depends so much on one unit, but at the same time fades SHOULD die or where is the hope for marines?
So, this is how lerk should be:
95/80 health (thats a pretty big buff to health, it makes the lerk have 255 health at hive 1 - thats almost 1/2 as much as fade). 30 res. Attacks: Bite. Spikes. Spores. Umbra.
Of course, spores and umbra would need to be buffed.
Has anyone played on the servers with the spikes plugins? You find it works pretty well with the new flight model, considering that if you don't press any directional keys it flys up and slightly forward, or you can turn around and keep going...
For example, a skulk is quite good withot any upgrades, even in the late game (the carapage doesn't do much agains LVL 3 SG or HMG), gorge can survive without regen or carapage also (get a gorgefriend to heal you, or setup a healing station)...
But the onos is another thing. Onos really needs Celerity to boost it's speed and Carapage or Regeneration to retain it's health. Please boost the speed of onos near to the level of Celerity, and concider to upgrade healt/armor levels also.
- juho
I would love to see a return of spikes. As has been raised before, the Lerk is a support class. It's other 3 skills reflect this fact, but bite is a bit unreasonable. Not going to talk about the realism of such a tiny mouth biting your leg twice to kill you or anything, as its not about realism.
But the fact that, as already mentioned, a 30 res lifeform should have to fly in and bite people is quite silly. Spikes offered an excellent counter against JP's, and whilst JP's arent seen on 1.04 scales anymore, they would still be excellent for picking off marines in support of your other team mates.
How often do you see a HA train with LA's at the back welding, as the comm is short on res. With spikes and gas, these LA's would have to play a lot differently then they do now (which is basically duck behind HA's constantly welding) and would give 1 hive aliens a way to severly punish HA trains. Not to mention that the spikes soon add up on HA when combined with other aliens. If the HA are welding each other, then thats time they arent shooting skulks/structures. If they arent welding each other they are getting whittled away by Lerks.
As to the combat arguement, of course you Combaters dont wanna lose Bite! It makes a skilled player near godlike on combat. Lerk with celerity, silence, focus, sof, regen and cara and umbra is almost unbeatable, as they are so fast, they just gas, umbra, fly in, bite you once or twice, and fly off. Rinse and repeat.
But i would much rather see Natural Selection balanced and Combat lerk nerfed than vice versa. The fact is, in Combat the Lerk is a high speed assault fighter, whilst in NS its a support role.
Also, with Electricity now in, spikes give the Lerk a chance to attack RT's and PG's protected by electricity. Whilst not doin that much damage, if you get desperate it can work.
As to the fades it's very hard to nerf them so that a good player is no longer godlike early to mid game, and a new player doesn't die more than he does now. The attempt with the nerf of Blink didn't work all to well, as the good players just ensure they have enough energy for a quick getaway, whilst the new players die even quicker when they try to blink off with no petrol as it were.
Only thing i could think of off the top of my head was an increase to 55 or 60ish res, with a small (15-25) armour boost.
One more point. Bring back the old acid rocket! Acid rocket kills were common in 1.04 but they are rare now. I can only assume Flaystar is looking at the AR, with the amount of moaning going on in the community, but it needs a longer cool and lots more damage, just like days of old.
VaCC
Specifically, I'd like to see the fade nerfed.
Why? Because it would mean we could buff up all the other aliens so that those who don't like playing the fade have a chance of being significant as well.
This wont happen every game, but it is the most common outcome. I felt betrayed when the latest update didnt address more gameplay issues...
Spikes are rediculous. Spores and bite > spikes any day. If they gave lerks a slight speed buff, made the amount of adren used per flap 1/2 of what it is now, and upped the HP/AP by like 10 %, lerk would be a better combat unit. I'd consider spikes a nerf, since they don't do anything except make the lerk feel useful when it should be terrorizing MS with gas or making some nice hallways of green death that marines have to walk through.
Bah, spikes.
I'm all for taking down the HP/AP of the fade at this point, as long as the other classes get the buff that they need.
Skulk: speed increase of 7 %, AP + 10. This allows for skulks to have a better chance of closing the distance to a marine, which is the trouble most skulks have at this point.
Gorge: no buff needed, but this should only take 5 res to evolve to.
Lerk: as I said, up the HP/AP by 10%, give a speed increase of around 5%, and enable lerks to flight backwards!
Fade: Nerf the HP/AP by 10%-15%, maybe make metabolize use up more energy.
Onos: Onos starting out has 900 HP, 650 AP.
OC: better aimbot so they're better for hive defense, cost 7 res instead of 10.
<b>Balanced and more scalable res system for Kharaa.</b>
Balancing 6 vs 6 was such a bad idea, especially when the game is at its most fun 10 vs 10 or 12 vs 12.
The only thing I'd like nerfed for both Kharaa and marines is SoF/MT. Those things ruin the game so much.
(edward) may i suggest tone down the catalyst packs to give aliens/badgers a chance and give the charge a boost it would be nice
(Hirst) i would personally get better graphics card
The other thing is some of the so called "fixes" are not that good, or more important ones were missed i.e. the double upgrade bug for marine arms lab... etc. I also think they waisted time making res points silent in the 1st min or so. U can still hear the aliens spawn and the skulks all running at the start hive if u are the comm... i.e. useless, time wasting attempted fix.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->maybe make metabolize use up more energy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hmmmm... strange metabolize gives me energy, not uses it up. Your fade must be broken, I would suggest returning it to your hive of purchase <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bah, spikes<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We all know they dont do alot of damage but spore+bite wont kill HA unless he is a retard. Also aliens have no long range weapon that deals damage across the board, without 3 hives.
slight skulk speed up would be ok... I feel at the start they are tough enough (but later on is a different story though)
Fades... the eternal problem. I dont feel fades are too tough sometimes. Flying into a group of SG or HMG even if u take no swipes and try to retreat can be fatal. THey dont last long at all really if they are getting hit. The problem is hitting them though at time b4 before they run and heal ( i dont know how to fix this).The other problem I see is the fact that at the time they first appear in the game they absolutely own single marines (probably 2 or 3 marines depending on skill), undefended tf's (no matter how many turrets) and elec res points. This pretty much covers all the ways marines get res and hold hives...
Oc's need some help too i think. U can always stand out of their range or at a corner without them firing at you.... Always!!! The best features about them are they alert you if they are being attacked (which tells you what the rines are up to) and stopping Jp rushes on hives (if u build them on top of/around the hive) I think 10 res is ok... otherwise at the start gorges could build 2 each and they could block too many paths off. They do need some wort in the "aimbot" department though imo.
MT is really good, a little too good sometimes I think considering u can get it at the start. SOF is similar but it comes at the cost of focus or cloak which can also be useful, so I think it has to be good enough or it will be redundant (and in turn never used).
I think it will be hard to balance the game for any number of players. It would be best to get it perfect for the 6 V 6, and have a better scaling resource model for large/smaller games.
As for the lerk: I really don't see why it should be yet another melee creature. It certainly isn't a support unit if it has to rely on spores/bite. It is then a melee unit just like any other lifeform. Plain and simple. And for 30 res, it's a way too risky of a unit to use in close combat. All it takes is one shotgunner to take a lerk down in a couple of seconds. All the marine has to do is ignore the spores and even the umbra in order to achieve this.
Another one i heard was maybe have a MT device like in Aliens, so one marine has to walk with this equipped, and any marines in close proximity to him get MT. These can be given out at a low cost (or maybe everyone gets one once equipped) and would only work on a limited area around the user, and only when equipped.
The latter is a bit radical but the former is good.
Aliens do not need another shock trooper, the Fade accomplishes this very well. What it needs is a dedicated support class and Spikes are much more useful for supporting the big creatures than bite is. Flying in with bite often jsut gets in the way of the fades/onos. A lerk can fire a constant stream of spikes at HA which are busy engaging an Onos, and a large group of early shottgunners can be decimated by a spike/spore combo.
this is a cyclical argument at the moment...
spore > spike
no wait spike > spore
no wait spore > spike
.
.
.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate spikes, spore is the new god<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I am affraid that you are worshipping a lesser deity MamboKing. Your god cant hurt HA or buildings...
Primal Scream is pretty useless....
Personally, I think lerks should be able to grab LA marines and carry them places. That would be the most awesome abillity...<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
While lerk bite does 50 damage now, i do agree it's suicidal to do it unless it's in a small hallway, you have celerity, and you come frmo behind to bite a couple times, spore, and fly off. Being a support class lifeform having bite just doesn't make sense to me, the gorge (also a support class!) has a ranged attack, a short ranged attack(healspray, lol), and an anti-building attack. With bilebomb only affecting buildings, and the lerk without ranged, the only real threat to heavies is a skilled fade to blink in, swipe, blink out, repeat, or a celerity onos that likes to suicidally devour someone and run off... Whereas in 2.01 you could sit in a vent as a lerk and spike to your content and fly off when nades were launched, and then continue your assault on them, **** them off, making them weld (*SUPPORT*ing the alien team by slowing the heavies down, definition of support class, anyone? low damage but distracting.) and effectively "snaring" them, so to say.
Even if it doesn't do any damage, it's ranged, hard to see, and helps to counter and actually gives reason to be lerk once again... only reason to lerk now is in dire need of umbra on hive (which still isnt enough for most people to lerk) or to crush a team of lights (or annoy the hell out of marine start armory sex).
That's my argument and im sticking to it!
<3