What Is A "liberal"
eggmac
Join Date: 2003-03-03 Member: 14246Members
Join Date: 2003-03-03 Member: 14246Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">and why is it a derogative term?</div> As you probably know I live in Europe and the term "liberal" appaently has a completely different meaning than in the USA. Here, the liberal political movement is mostly concerned about a liberal market. So they stand for neo-conservative capitalism.
Yet, in this forum I've often seen the term liberal used on more social political ideas and also very often as a derogative term. It's used frequently in hate-speeches as well.
How come the conservatives use this term in such a way? And is the term "conservative" or any other usual term used as an insult by leftists in the USA? Because I really don't know...
Yet, in this forum I've often seen the term liberal used on more social political ideas and also very often as a derogative term. It's used frequently in hate-speeches as well.
How come the conservatives use this term in such a way? And is the term "conservative" or any other usual term used as an insult by leftists in the USA? Because I really don't know...
Comments
Amidst all that, any really intelligent leftwinger is left talking quietly in the corner, and no one actuallly notices him. And unfortunately, all the above generates in me an angry, visceral response that these people are idiots, and not just idiots, they're rude, childish idiots. Its not true of course, I'm sure most people arent, but these jackasses are coming to characterise the liberals imo. Which is also why I suspect American politics are now so polarised. You watch any competition in school sports - its pretty heated. But when one side starts hurling insults at the other, then the temperature and pressure goes up a notch - but thats another thread.
Conservative isn't an insult automatically - and neither is liberal. Neo-conservative is one of those socialist buzzwords - spoken the same way one would pronouce FASCIST! It is frequently invoked in the same line as Halliburton, Racist, Oil, Halliburton, War Criminals, Fundamentalists, Halliburton and Idiots.
To summarise, I dont consider liberal to be an insulting term, although it definately defines my political opponents. In fact - I'm actually a member of the Young Liberals, which is the youth movement of the highly conservative Liberal Party of Australia which is currently in power.
The American use of the word "liberal" is generally used to describe anybody with left-of-center political views. This can include anybody from moderate members of the Democratic party like Senator Lieberman to more radical Democrats like Senator Nancy Pelosi. It also includes people who purport more extremist ideas like socialism and communism, even though most Democratic party members reject such ideas and neither have been particularly popular through U.S. history.
On the other hand, "conservative" is applied to any right-of-center politics. Republicans make up the bulk of this title, from moderate Republicans like Senators Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe (I <3 Sen. Snowe) to "ultra-conservatives" like Senator Rick Santorum. "Neo-conservative" generally refers to big government Republicans who favor an interventionist foreign policy as opposed to the traditionally isolationist policy of yore. "Conservative" also applies to many religious groups in the "religious right" that are usually led by Fundamentalist clerics like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. The term can also apply to the Constitutional Party, even though they're about as popular as the socialists.
It's also important to note that there are "centrists" as well. This term is even more vague than "liberal" and "conservative" since it can include anybody who doesn't have membership to the two aforementioned camps. It can include Libertarians, Centrists, Independents and others who don't ascribe to any political belief.
The terms are used because it's quicker than having to elaborately define another person's position. It can be used in a derogatory manner, but it's just as frequently a simple statement of location on the political spectrum. I know that some conservatives consider "neo-conservative" an insult. Pat Buchanan has dubbed his political following as "paleo-conservative" in order to differentiate between him and Bush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since the rise of Bush I have witness this side change from more people orientated politics to a rabid, foaming mob - moaning ceaselessly about Bush, acting like he is the greatest evil that ever happened, protesting his Government and wars with inane signs like "No Blood For Oil", and "Bush = Hitler", pushing stupid slurs like "Bush is a deserter" and creating crude sexual based floats to ridicule him, creating laughable yet viciously false propaganda movies etc<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And when a Democrat is in the White House, conservatives foam at the mouth with equally inane slurs. Both parties are equally rediculous when they don't have their horse in the lead.
For reference, I fall under the "centrist" category as a psudeo-Libertarian. Libertarians are usually fiscally conservative and socially liberal (in the maximum freedom sense of the word). I agree with a lot of their ideas, but I don't agree with them on everything. I've become so disgusted with Democrats and Republicans that I hope both parties have a meltdown and splinter into different groups.
This last piece should be followed by "again." in my opinion <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Otherwise, good show Finch <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll take a shot at simplifying this definition a little for the drive-thru types:
When a pundit (someone talking politics on TV) mentions that someone is a Liberal, they're usually comparing them to someone who fully supports New Deal politics (ie healthcare for everyone, larger social security payments, increased welfare, increased minimum wage, etc) and political activists (ie supporters of women's liberation in the 60's, anti global traders, those who believe the Constitution is a flexible "living" document, etc).
Again, this is the simplistic definition but since politics has devolved into sound-bites I figured I'd give the happy meal version.
Well, not in Australia - there was no real fuss about any American president until GWB came along, then it got very heated very quickly....
My major issue with the Libertarians is their isolationist viewpoint on foreign policy, a very "head in sand" attitude on something so important.
If the Libertarians would adjust their foreign policy viewpoint, I would probably register as such.
In any case, liberals are so disliked in many circles in America now because of a few major things:
1.) They were (generally) sympathisers to Communism and Socialism during the time when those were the major enemies of America.
2.) They constituted the bulk of the "hippy" movement in the late 1960's.
3.) Liberals tend to be immature and elitistic. If you do not like what they have to say, you are "stupid."
*Note the word "tend."
Now, not all liberal ideas are bad. I feel that some elements of the liberal movement have had a positive effect on American society. Sexual freedom is something I cherish dearly, and feel that the government, local or federal, should not be dictating who I do on my couch late at night. I feel the drug war is a waste of money. If someone wants to smoke up a little weed, fine, not my business, not the government's business.
However, they tend to be imbalanced on these issues, which is why the Libertarian thought on these social issues is far better. Liberal idealism tends to disregard personal responsibility, and looks upon people as victims.
While she was going on with her business you should have slapped her upside the head.
Being in the military gives you a whole new respect for those that wear the uniform. I had random people thank me for my service when I was sitting in airports in uniform. I still thank people I see in uniform for their service.
Being a member of any political affiliation doesn't give one the right to inordinate asshattery.
Liberal = "OMG! J00 not 0n Ge0rge \/\/, Boosh'z S1de!!!1 WTHGGBBQ!!" Tr4itorz!!!! GG!!!".
Liberal = "OMG! J00 not 0n Ge0rge \/\/, Boosh'z S1de!!!1 WTHGGBBQ!!" Tr4itorz!!!! GG!!!". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want my 10 seconds back.
Liberal = "OMG! J00 not 0n Ge0rge \/\/, Boosh'z S1de!!!1 WTHGGBBQ!!" Tr4itorz!!!! GG!!!". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want my 10 seconds back. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but it will cost you 20.
Liberal = "OMG! J00 not 0n Ge0rge \/\/, Boosh'z S1de!!!1 WTHGGBBQ!!" Tr4itorz!!!! GG!!!". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want my 10 seconds back. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but it will cost you 20. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
can't believe it takes you 10 seconds to read a line.
+10
Liberal = "OMG! J00 not 0n Ge0rge \/\/, Boosh'z S1de!!!1 WTHGGBBQ!!" Tr4itorz!!!! GG!!!". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want my 10 seconds back. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but it will cost you 20. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can't believe it takes you 10 seconds to read a line.
+10 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at that sentence. If it takes less than 10 seconds to parse that garbled crap you need to unplug for a while and read a book. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well, not in Australia - there was no real fuss about any American president until GWB came along, then it got very heated very quickly.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
not while you were alive at least; or me for that matter, but I think you'll find there was still very public interest in the american presidency before GWB, especially when Australia first publically aligned themselves with America first and foremost after (and during) WW2.
all the way with LBJ
Well, not in Australia - there was no real fuss about any American president until GWB came along, then it got very heated very quickly.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's rather his actions that his politically alignment..
Anyway, as in dictionary. com
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--># Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
# Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
# Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fail to see how they are bad traits..
I dislike group X, because group X make generalisations.
Well, not in Australia - there was no real fuss about any American president until GWB came along, then it got very heated very quickly.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why it surprises you , afaik your people tend to like exaggeration... remember when Chirac ordered nuclear tests in Mururoa ? "They're killing all our fishes !" was the reaction of an average australian <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and all of that is beside the point anyway; it's completely apples and oranges.
The problem with this is that both sides associate all those traits with the other side, and none of those traits are acctually characterisic of either side.
If you were to take Liberal by its true definition, about 95% of Americans would be liberal.
Here in the United states:
Liberal: Tends to favor more government control over the economy via regulation and taxation (Tax the rich to fund social programs aimed at helping lower income citizens). They favor policies in which the government has control of what corporations/businesses do via prices, who they hire, workers compensation, minimum wage etc (after Reagan took office, this avocation of price controls and direct control of what corporations/business has dropped) Socially, it advocates a hands off approach. It favors you making your own decisions what you do in your private life. Liberals usually associate with he democratic party.
Conservative: Tends to favor less government control over the economy. Conservatives generally believe in more economic freedom. "You are more responsible on what job you have, how much you earn and how you spend it". They tend to dislike many social programs advocating personal responsibility. Socially on the other hand, they tend to want to be more involved. They believe its the governments responsibility to decide and enforce what is deem as "anti social behavior". Conservatives usually associate with the Republican party.
Libertarian: Pretty much both conservative and liberal. They believe economically and socially, the individual should be responsible of what they do. If you ever watch 20/20, John Stossel is a perfect example of a libertarian. It’s important to note, when it comes to highly controversial topic (i.e. abortion, foreign policy), libertarians branch away from this generalization and make personal judgments. For example the abortion, currently libertarians are split 50:50 on this issue.
I’ve studied other countries political system and it is quite clear, liberal/conservative in the US is very different between the conservative/liberal in Europe (and much of the world) as explained in other posts. It is in my opinion, after looking into many different party ideologies across Europe (specifically Brittan, France and Germany) all of these would not qualify as Republican and would be considered by US standards 80% socialist, 20% democrat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Just an observation to keep in mind when discussing the defination of liberal/conservative using US standards <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes. Well, I say to them tonight, <span style='color:yellow'>there’s not a liberal America and a conservative America—there’s the United States of America</span>. There’s not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there’s the United States of America. The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I’ve got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don’t like federal agents poking around our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and have **** friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported it. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So stop trying to define catagories of division please. Ok?
The problem with this is that both sides associate all those traits with the other side, and none of those traits are acctually characterisic of either side. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
of course not, but there are always people of each group who *are* ignorant, or close-minded, or hypocritical. and people sieze upon that as a sort of straw-man to make the other side look bad.
The problem with this is that both sides associate all those traits with the other side, and none of those traits are acctually characterisic of either side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
of course not, but there are always people of each group who *are* ignorant, or close-minded, or hypocritical. and people sieze upon that as a sort of straw-man to make the other side look bad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup yup and yup.
Yet what I still cannot understand is why the term liberal is used so often as an insult, especially on these forums, in comparison to other political terms. There is really some ground-rooted hate and fear in some people apparently and I was trying to find out why this is so and if they actually know what they're talking about.
As for example something like "those heart-bleeding liberals ruined our country".