Anti-jedi Fighting Tactics
Trevelyan
Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I'm Serious</div> <i><span style='color:red'>*Notice* admins if you don't think this thread is "worthy" of the discussion forum, feel free to move it to the OTF. To those that have played Jedi Knight II/Acadamy, you will understand alot more in here then those that haven't. (you really should play the game, they are cheap and good)*/Notice*</span></i>
<span style='color:orange'>Putting this in discussions is fine by me -- Marik</span>
While playing the Jedi Knight games, I was horrified at both the lack of stratigic thought the Storm troopers displayed in the game. The commander (Yea its a game... lets just pretend ok?) running the base/outpost disregards his duty to protect not only the base, but his responcibility for his men's lives. Yes if you played the game there are "attempts" to ambush you... but in the end it is just a wave of stormtroopers, blindly trying to get behind you to kill you.
This thread will discuss the tactics behind fighting the jedi with what materials the empire had during all movies, all games, and if someone else would like to add it later... in some of the books.
To competantly fight an opponent, one must first step back and realise what strengths and weaknesses you and your opponent have. (feel free to add... I just got the basics down)
The Empire:
Strengths -
- Range: Jedis hold few ranged attacks, and are devestating up close. Its obvious you don't want to get close in any circumstance (but don't think it wont happen).
- Manpower: When was the last time you saw ONE stormtrooper? There are always a million of them everywhere... so it is obvious the Empire has the advantage of numbers.
- The Base itself: Jedis are often like special forces... they work in small numbers and make quick desisive strikes against key assets. This means that jedi is nearly always on the offensive, giving the job of defense to the Commander of the base under attack. This means YOU set the table... YOU control the environment... YOU hold the cards when the jedi is first spotted. The security of a base is only as good as a commander makes it.
- Intel: Lets face it, stormtroopers are going to be horrible at giving this to you. When they see the hostile they will be: A.) Dead B.) Dieing C.) Paniced or D.) fighting. Notice how relaying a messege back to command isn't in the list. Bypass this problem by installing cameras throughout the base. I haven't seen anything that hints that jedis can fool electronic eyes, so cameras are a safe easy way to know whats happening.
Weaknesses -
- Speed: Moving your troops will be like trudging through quicksand compared to the Jedis. This isn't much of a problem (since your defending) untill you need to reinforce a heavily damaged unit at a different location in your facility. not only will they be slow, but the troops your moving are at risk of easily being singled out and destroyed by the renegade jedi.
- The Mind: Jedis can cause havok among your ranks... and sometimes they don't even have to try for it to happen. Your men will be scared S@#tless simply because of the fact that there is an obviously supirior enemy in the area, and your job is to keep them in a comprehensive state. factor in jedi Mind tricks and controlling your forces will quickly become impossible if not tightly managed.
Jedis
Stengths -
- Durability: Jedis can not only heal themselves through the power of the force, but they can deflect blaster bolts away from them in a arc in front of them. Other means of preventing damage involves pushing explosives away from themselves and shielding themself from attack.
- Movement: Jedis can jump great heights and run at insane speeds. This allows for surprise attacks from unknown locations and devastating hit and runs. Once a Jedi decides to leave the battlefield... there is very little your troops will be able to do other then get in the way (sounds familier? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
- Fear: There is nothing that ruins moral more then stumbling across 5+ bodies in 10 pieces each.
Weaknesses:
- Time: Yes time is NOT in favour of the jedi, as much as it seems. The empire will undoubtedly send reinforcements to your area if the messege gets out that you have a jedi infestation. What will be brought (given time) are armored vehicles, more manpower, space craft (to ensure escape from the planet isn't easy), and Orbital strikes. If forced to the empire is able to raze an entire region with blaster fire from these assets... and no amount of skill will save the jedi with the possible exception of burrowing underground.
- Numbers: Usually jedis are found working alone, with the possible exception of students following a teacher. If you find yourself facing 3+ trained jedis evacuation should be considered. They can simply just outmanuver you in every way possible and eventually wipe out anything and everything you have to offer.
- Range: Using the lightsaber as their main (and sometimes only) weapon... Its your job to make them regret that as much as possible. Thier ranged force powers pale in comparison to what you can put down range.
Knowing this, lets focus on key points to remember when planning a defensive battle against the jedi.
- Consolidate your forces: In a high tech heavily armed compound... there are bound to be 2-5 key points you must defend. this includes power generators, shield generators, communication equipment, the command post, and whatever else may be placed in this base. Instead of spreading your forces equally throughout the base (ala Jedi knight II/academy), Focus your forces in a perimeter around these key locations.
- Ambush ambush ambush: Your biggest advantages are range and being on the defensive. You can set up places over looking areas in which the jedi may travel. You want your troops in a high far away and hard to reach location so they have ample time to pour firepower down on the jedi. If the jedi takes flight it would be in the best interest for your troops to move locations (preferably to a second ambush point not far from the first location). Explosives are a good idea... but Jedis have a extra sense of awareness that may be triggered... forcing the jedi AWAY from where you want him/her to go. This is a bad thing, you want the jedi as predictible as possible. Perhaps explosives could be used to "seal off" areas you don't want the jedi moving down. If the jedi does go there... blow the explosives. This isn't the best idea in underground bases unless a engineer/construction expert is available to show where the best locations to place the explosives without damaging the base's structure.
- Combined Arms: This has got to be the single most important thing lacking in jedi knight II/academy. <a href='http://www.force-temple.com/jk3/media/screenshots/view.cgi?17l.jpg' target='_blank'>friendly Jedi</a> were used... but hardly supported by storm troopers. Storm troopers are used... but not supported by ANYTHING. Light armor exoskeleton units are used but Never (singleplayer at least) EVER NEVER are supported by infantry of any kind.
I'd add more... but I want to play World of Warcraft now...
<span style='color:orange'>Putting this in discussions is fine by me -- Marik</span>
While playing the Jedi Knight games, I was horrified at both the lack of stratigic thought the Storm troopers displayed in the game. The commander (Yea its a game... lets just pretend ok?) running the base/outpost disregards his duty to protect not only the base, but his responcibility for his men's lives. Yes if you played the game there are "attempts" to ambush you... but in the end it is just a wave of stormtroopers, blindly trying to get behind you to kill you.
This thread will discuss the tactics behind fighting the jedi with what materials the empire had during all movies, all games, and if someone else would like to add it later... in some of the books.
To competantly fight an opponent, one must first step back and realise what strengths and weaknesses you and your opponent have. (feel free to add... I just got the basics down)
The Empire:
Strengths -
- Range: Jedis hold few ranged attacks, and are devestating up close. Its obvious you don't want to get close in any circumstance (but don't think it wont happen).
- Manpower: When was the last time you saw ONE stormtrooper? There are always a million of them everywhere... so it is obvious the Empire has the advantage of numbers.
- The Base itself: Jedis are often like special forces... they work in small numbers and make quick desisive strikes against key assets. This means that jedi is nearly always on the offensive, giving the job of defense to the Commander of the base under attack. This means YOU set the table... YOU control the environment... YOU hold the cards when the jedi is first spotted. The security of a base is only as good as a commander makes it.
- Intel: Lets face it, stormtroopers are going to be horrible at giving this to you. When they see the hostile they will be: A.) Dead B.) Dieing C.) Paniced or D.) fighting. Notice how relaying a messege back to command isn't in the list. Bypass this problem by installing cameras throughout the base. I haven't seen anything that hints that jedis can fool electronic eyes, so cameras are a safe easy way to know whats happening.
Weaknesses -
- Speed: Moving your troops will be like trudging through quicksand compared to the Jedis. This isn't much of a problem (since your defending) untill you need to reinforce a heavily damaged unit at a different location in your facility. not only will they be slow, but the troops your moving are at risk of easily being singled out and destroyed by the renegade jedi.
- The Mind: Jedis can cause havok among your ranks... and sometimes they don't even have to try for it to happen. Your men will be scared S@#tless simply because of the fact that there is an obviously supirior enemy in the area, and your job is to keep them in a comprehensive state. factor in jedi Mind tricks and controlling your forces will quickly become impossible if not tightly managed.
Jedis
Stengths -
- Durability: Jedis can not only heal themselves through the power of the force, but they can deflect blaster bolts away from them in a arc in front of them. Other means of preventing damage involves pushing explosives away from themselves and shielding themself from attack.
- Movement: Jedis can jump great heights and run at insane speeds. This allows for surprise attacks from unknown locations and devastating hit and runs. Once a Jedi decides to leave the battlefield... there is very little your troops will be able to do other then get in the way (sounds familier? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
- Fear: There is nothing that ruins moral more then stumbling across 5+ bodies in 10 pieces each.
Weaknesses:
- Time: Yes time is NOT in favour of the jedi, as much as it seems. The empire will undoubtedly send reinforcements to your area if the messege gets out that you have a jedi infestation. What will be brought (given time) are armored vehicles, more manpower, space craft (to ensure escape from the planet isn't easy), and Orbital strikes. If forced to the empire is able to raze an entire region with blaster fire from these assets... and no amount of skill will save the jedi with the possible exception of burrowing underground.
- Numbers: Usually jedis are found working alone, with the possible exception of students following a teacher. If you find yourself facing 3+ trained jedis evacuation should be considered. They can simply just outmanuver you in every way possible and eventually wipe out anything and everything you have to offer.
- Range: Using the lightsaber as their main (and sometimes only) weapon... Its your job to make them regret that as much as possible. Thier ranged force powers pale in comparison to what you can put down range.
Knowing this, lets focus on key points to remember when planning a defensive battle against the jedi.
- Consolidate your forces: In a high tech heavily armed compound... there are bound to be 2-5 key points you must defend. this includes power generators, shield generators, communication equipment, the command post, and whatever else may be placed in this base. Instead of spreading your forces equally throughout the base (ala Jedi knight II/academy), Focus your forces in a perimeter around these key locations.
- Ambush ambush ambush: Your biggest advantages are range and being on the defensive. You can set up places over looking areas in which the jedi may travel. You want your troops in a high far away and hard to reach location so they have ample time to pour firepower down on the jedi. If the jedi takes flight it would be in the best interest for your troops to move locations (preferably to a second ambush point not far from the first location). Explosives are a good idea... but Jedis have a extra sense of awareness that may be triggered... forcing the jedi AWAY from where you want him/her to go. This is a bad thing, you want the jedi as predictible as possible. Perhaps explosives could be used to "seal off" areas you don't want the jedi moving down. If the jedi does go there... blow the explosives. This isn't the best idea in underground bases unless a engineer/construction expert is available to show where the best locations to place the explosives without damaging the base's structure.
- Combined Arms: This has got to be the single most important thing lacking in jedi knight II/academy. <a href='http://www.force-temple.com/jk3/media/screenshots/view.cgi?17l.jpg' target='_blank'>friendly Jedi</a> were used... but hardly supported by storm troopers. Storm troopers are used... but not supported by ANYTHING. Light armor exoskeleton units are used but Never (singleplayer at least) EVER NEVER are supported by infantry of any kind.
I'd add more... but I want to play World of Warcraft now...
Comments
well, imo the greatest asset that the empire has is its resources and numbers, so the obvious way to utilize this would be through the careful deployment of your vast personal army of stormies. you know that in close, your pretty easily beaten, and that even moderatly large groups can be easily handled by a jedi if their lightly armed and bunched together.
so to conserve assests, i'd pry write off corridors as undefensable, and possibly other non esential areas. that way i'll be able to concentrate forces into areas i can have a reasonable chance to beat the jedi in. large, open areas in this are most definitely your friend. i'd deploy troops in such a way as to overwhelm the jedi with angles. if i had time, i'd remove all cover from an area, and setup my troops to have two groups minimum covering the area. the troop groups should be widely spaced, and if possible provided with at least one heavy repeater per position. then, when the jedi runs into the area, he'll have a hard time engaging both groups at close range.
now, this is where things get decidely imperial. stormies, are expendable. they are only valuable as tactically wise gun platforms. their lives are NOT worth the jedi's escape. if one group is engaged at close range, the other group should not hesitate to open fire on them.
i guess the important thing is remembering that you only need one successful defense of an area, and you've won, thanks to the jedi's small strike party size. also always be on defense for jedi trickery, as that is their most essential advantage. after repeling a jedi attack, always always always celebrate you victory be destroying some innocent village.
follow that, and you might make sector moff yet.
well, imo the greatest asset that the empire has is its resources and numbers, so the obvious way to utilize this would be through the careful deployment of your vast personal army of stormies. you know that in close, your pretty easily beaten, and that even moderatly large groups can be easily handled by a jedi if their lightly armed and bunched together.
so to conserve assests, i'd pry write off corridors as undefensable, and possibly other non esential areas. that way i'll be able to concentrate forces into areas i can have a reasonable chance to beat the jedi in. large, open areas in this are most definitely your friend.[...] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this, but only to a point: yes, corridors are practically undefensible and open areas are good -- but more specifically, I'd write "undefensible by people" and "good for human troops." Corridors tend to be before entrances, after them, or both. <s>A little investment in wall-emplaced flamethrowers and poison gas dispensers could go a long way.
Even better, try to use airlock-like entrances to all high-priority areas (by "airlock-like" I mean blast plating throughout the following: you go through one door, it closes before you can go into the next, and it closes before you pass through the last into your destination). Set up mere flammable gas dispensers, hold the Jedi in place with this method in the 1st chamber, send in a droid or few to the internal chamber and then the Jedis,' and inform the jedi (if any are wearing gas masks or have otherwise not found the flammable gas to be toxic) that using any energy-based or explosion-based weapon, ranged or not, will detonate the entire room.</s>
[edit]Well, I feel a bit humbled for writing this. I just realized that any jedi who can manipulate wind can push poison gas, flammable gas, napalm, etc. out of harm's way. D'oh.[/edit]
Electic floor plates over the majority of a base would have the unfortunate tendency to be useless vs. Jedi who have trained themselves to absorb the energy from Dark Jedi force lightning attacks.
...Or one who wears shoes.
My strategy? Hurl so much {enter projectile of preference} at them that they cant block all of it. Actually huge numbers of anything really. Troopers, laser beams, parakeets, whatever. Quantity is a quality of its own.
Run before hin and thow mines to his feet...
**** like that is the reason why I don't play Jedi knight online.
Why can't villains be as creative as you.
Deflect <i>that</i>, jerks.
Joking joking <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Really, I think that simple balistics would do the trick. Light sabers have great defensive powers against - LIGHT - so use metal instead.
(I was really joking - please don't flame to hard <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Joking joking <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Really, I think that simple balistics would do the trick. Light sabers have great defensive powers against - LIGHT - so use metal instead.
(I was really joking - please don't flame to hard <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhhhh, but lightsabres deflect blaster/light based weapons.... they'd just disolve bullets.
My solution would be similar to Mantrids. Chances are you'll be in a space ship or space station of somekind. Seal them in then quickly open up an outer door (to space!). You've got to do it quickly before they start sabering through the door and you decompress your entire base, which wouldn't be good really. Once the door is open, LEAVE IT THAT WAY FOR 30 MINUTES! Don't say after 10 seconds "that should be enough" because he'll still be hanging on to a pipe, waiting to show you your own cauterized leg before handing you your **** on a plate with all the trimmings.
They can't sense such things, or at least if they can, it would hinder their movement greatly.
And if one of the jedis is named Skywalker, run like hell!
Why can't villains be as creative as you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
because they know that the jedi can melt blastproof doors with their lightsaber (with enough time)
That's why toxic gas would be a good solution (given enough time since they also have a James Bond Thunderball breather device)
*chokes on cola drink as he was reading* <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
They can't sense such things, or at least if they can, it would hinder their movement greatly.
And if one of the jedis is named Skywalker, run like hell! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They'd just force push them off the doors as they walk through, and throw them into your own troops.
The A-team is a crack team of uber-commandos. They're so skilled they can fire fully automatic weapons and use explosives <b>without incurring even a single casualty or direct hit!</b> now that's skill!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Now look at our storm troopers, the elite army of the empire... how often do they hit our heroic jedi? Now that's good training ^~
Chance you have none!
can lightsabers penetrate shields?
I would think that a strong unit shield matched to the specific characteristics of a lightsaber would be usable.
but the gas sprinkler sounds cool as hell.
sonic weaponry couldn't be defended against
eh?
Have someone throw a rock at you, then catch it. Now have several million people throw one rock each at you, and catch all of them. You run into a few problems <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
...the Empire does have auto-shotgun and mines...right?
Definition: The easier the shot or the better the odds for the enemy, the worse his aim becomes.
Translation: pit a platoon of Stormtroopers against a single unarmed, deaf, unconcious Jedi with three broken legs (don't ask) and <i>leprosy</i>, and the most likely outcome is that every member of the platoon will shoot himself in the gorin while unholstering his blaster rifle.
My suggestion, given the above:
Send Rookie Stormtrooper #20163, who has just been disciplined for falling asleep while using the lavatory, on a garbage run near where you think the Jedi will be. Send him alone, and arm him with a can of soup. The Jedi is as good as dead.
Damn Light Side....
The only thing I can think of is make fun of them by saying they have girly hairdos or something.
But coil's suggestion is teh best. Nothing can beat teh can o' soup!
And in all seriousness, bombard them with Imperial Warships. It might be overkill, but it does the job (provided that a Jedi doesn't actually get into your warship and wreak havok within)
You're a loser... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ok... while magic, microwave guns, various birds, and clothing are a <i>great </i> ideas of what to use against jedis... the empire really doesn't have them on hand.
As for actually attacking a jedi with what you have, an idea i thought would have always worked would be to make 2-3 LARGE groups of men/vehicles/machinery and attempt to smash the jedi between them. I figured that if you break up into many smaller groups, even with the jedi cornered/surrounded he could break through. Of course keeping that many people in a comprehensive state WHILE MOVING would be quite the challenge.
Has anyone played Jedi Knight II? You fight a dark jedi with conventional weapons. You try every weapon and he either uses it against you, or he deflects it.
<b>Blaster</b>, he'd reflect it back at you.
<b>Grenade</b>, he'd force push it back in your direction.
<b>Rapid fire blaster </b>(standard issue stormtrooper weapon), he'd force choke you and then throw you back.
He was the boss at the end, that you ended up beating after regaining jedi powers. It is impossible to beat him though using conventional weapons.
Well, only way to kill a single jedi that I can think of, is a crossway that they HAVE to go through, and you have very-rapid-fire turrets in the middle of each corridor leading away from that crossway - Then the turrets activate and start firing once the jedi is in the middle of the crossway.
Of course, he will instead crawl through the air ventilation ducts that you installed beacuse your stormtroopers claimed that if they didn't get summer vacation they could at least get AC to cope with the heat.