<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cant help but think that if the American special forces had carried out the assualt, it would have been over in a matter of minutes. Instead, the Russians had a 2 hour gun battle in the school, then let several escape into nearby buildings. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I somehow doubt that. Operations like these are trikcy, no matter what your nationality.
I just watched a report on SBS television, claiming specifically that the Russian troops stormed the building two hours ago and have been fighting ever since, with many explosions and constant gunfire. Heaps of children have made a run for it - strangely enough most are naked or in their underwear.
I dont doubt the Russians are trained, but if any special forces entry takes 2 hours to complete, then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. Two hours is a hell of a long time to carry on a gun battle when the entry is supposed to be surgical, swift and overwhelming. I wouldnt be surprised if the Russians took in a tank, heavy machine guns and standard issue tents.....
And besides - why should I give russian special forces the benefit of the doubt? I seem to remember a certain seige of a theatre that didnt go terribly well....
There are all kinds of "reports" floating out there. It's mostly confusion right now.
Basically it's too early to tell, just wait and see.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And besides - why should I give russian special forces the benefit of the doubt? I seem to remember a certain seige of a theatre that didnt go terribly well.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
America has had their fair share of botched raids and special forces operations. Operation Tiger Claw, Somolia, Waco, and so on.
And the russian forces have probably not even stormed the school. Nobody knows for sure what's happening at the moment, how many were killed, how many are injured and how many terrorsist escaped and where they are.
So before posting bs just wait until there is reliable information in a few hours. And marine01, I'm quite sure the russian inland forces are way much more trained than in any other country <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> CNN said it was over and that some were killed and that some escaped. This incident is over.
So take your own advice.
And our special forces are some of the most well trained in the entire world. Definitely better trained than those Russia used here.
Unconfirmed, so take it with a grain of salt. Or a shaker...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->latest from sky. Russians went in with stretchers to remove the dead (when did these people die? summary executions?) when a female hostage taker apparently accidentally triggered her explosives. Hostages bolted for it, terrorists shot at them, military (and locals) responded to protect them,turning it into a full firefight. Terrorists panicked and blew explosives in gym, where apparently there are 100 dead. (horrible as that is, I guess it could have been massively higher). After the firefight cooled down a bit, 13 terrorists bolted for it apparently dressed as hostages, then took up position in another building, and are still fighting apparently. There are also reports of at least 4 terrorists (including the head honcho) held up in a basement. Apparently they STILL have children hostage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is the case, then the situation destabilized and escalated, rather than a botched pre-meditated assault on the school by military forces as everyone seems to have initially assumed.
In other words, the crappy situation got worse and the military had to act and act now. I would imagine this will almost always result in more casualties than a pre-planned assault, regardless of what countries special forces are used. I highly doubt "american special forces" (or any other for that matter) would have been able to do much better.
good morning, the best synopsis i have seen is this <a href='http://212.2.162.45/news/story.asp?j=116412340&p=yy64y3x46&n=116413100' target='_blank'>one</a>.
Welcome to the study of Russia.
also for those of you who want info on russian special forces: <a href='http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Russia/Spetznaz.htm' target='_blank'>look here</a> here is a key point about how they operate: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it appears that rescuing hostages came second in priority to killing terrorists -Dr Mark Galleoti (about the theatre incident) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Legat+Sep 4 2004, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat @ Sep 4 2004, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> CWAG, I certainly hope you got suspended for that one... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Meh why? I agree with him, we all knew it was going to end this way, it had to happen some time.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Sep 4 2004, 02:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Sep 4 2004, 02:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Legat+Sep 4 2004, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legat @ Sep 4 2004, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> CWAG, I certainly hope you got suspended for that one... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Meh why? I agree with him, we all knew it was going to end this way, it had to happen some time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because if over 300 bodies counts as "problem solved", then something's terribly wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin-Scinet+Sep 4 2004, 06:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scinet @ Sep 4 2004, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because if over 300 bodies counts as "problem solved", then something's terribly wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Did anyone expect anything except this outcome? Doesn't anyone remember the last time there was a mass hostage situation in Russia? Moscow, the Ballet Theater, they stormed that to. They almost always storm the building and use force. Taking hostages... they got the wrong idea on how to cow the Russians... These are the same folks who simply shelled Pervomayskaya into the dirt when the enemy started to kill folks... Lose a few hostages? "Oh-well, we got a few back."
I see a lot of people who look at this as a big failure, but for the Russians it's a success, the enemy is dead, they got a few people back. Everyone always expects the "good guys" to win and to get all the bad folks and rescue everyone, but for the most part glamorous Rainbow-6 assaults always fail.
This is just another event in the long and bloody war between the Russians and the Chechnyans, isn't the first, not the last, and it wont end until the Russians are no longer restrained by the international community, and simply slam a hammer down on the people of Chechnya.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Sep 4 2004, 10:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Sep 4 2004, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Scinet+Sep 4 2004, 06:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scinet @ Sep 4 2004, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because if over 300 bodies counts as "problem solved", then something's terribly wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did anyone expect anything except this outcome? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wan't saying that. I was saying even if everyone knew what was coming CWAG didn't have to be an ***hole about it.
It's quite strange how some right-winged americans post in this thread and demand the russians to use less force, to find a political solution to the Chechnyan conflict and criticize them to have screwed up.
Hello, are you even serious? You're the same people that defend the war in Iraq, you defend the hard-line-policy against terrorist suspects, you defend the guantanamo concentration camps.
So when the USA is responsible for thousands of civilian deaths it serves a good purpose but when Russians do the same it's "they screwed up". When 3000 people in the WTC die it's not that the USA "screwed up" to pevent it, but when over 400 people are massacred in Russia during a terrorist attack you suddenly remember to criticize the authorities no less than the terrorists themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Sep 5 2004, 06:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Sep 5 2004, 06:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's quite strange how some right-winged americans post in this thread and demand the russians to use less force, to find a political solution to the Chechnyan conflict and criticize them to have screwed up.
Hello, are you even serious? You're the same people that defend the war in Iraq, you defend the hard-line-policy against terrorist suspects, you defend the guantanamo concentration camps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They are completely different circumstances.
<!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Sep 5 2004, 11:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Sep 5 2004, 11:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's quite strange how some right-winged americans post in this thread and demand the russians to use less force, to find a political solution to the Chechnyan conflict and criticize them to have screwed up.
Hello, are you even serious? You're the same people that defend the war in Iraq, you defend the hard-line-policy against terrorist suspects, you defend the guantanamo concentration camps.
So when the USA is responsible for thousands of civilian deaths it serves a good purpose but when Russians do the same it's "they screwed up". When 3000 people in the WTC die it's not that the USA "screwed up" to pevent it, but when over 400 people are massacred in Russia during a terrorist attack you suddenly remember to criticize the authorities no less than the terrorists themselves.
This hypocricy is a joke. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Where abouts did I suggest LESS force? I suggested that the American special forces would have gone in with overwhelming force, and finished it up, for better or worse results, in a matter of minutes, not hours. Nor did I suggest a political solution for Chechnya - and given the actions of these terrorists I find it very hard to generate any sympathy for them.
American's in Iraq acted to preserve as much civilian life as possible. Thats why you didnt see B52's carpet bombing Baghdad - you saw laser guided missiles. Dont get me wrong - the clear evil here is the terrorists. I just think the whole cleanup could have been a little more professional.
And I see no parallel between this situation and 9/11. Once the terrorists had control of the planes it was game over. In this situation, the government got to make all the hard calls, to actually fight.
<!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Sep 5 2004, 06:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Sep 5 2004, 06:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's quite strange how some right-winged americans post in this thread and demand the russians to use less force, to find a political solution to the Chechnyan conflict and criticize them to have screwed up.
Hello, are you even serious? You're the same people that defend the war in Iraq, you defend the hard-line-policy against terrorist suspects, you defend the guantanamo concentration camps.
So when the USA is responsible for thousands of civilian deaths it serves a good purpose but when Russians do the same it's "they screwed up". When 3000 people in the WTC die it's not that the USA "screwed up" to pevent it, but when over 400 people are massacred in Russia during a terrorist attack you suddenly remember to criticize the authorities no less than the terrorists themselves.
This hypocricy is a joke. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you misread some posts or something, as far as Russia is concerned this raid was a success. I knew they would use force from the beginning and I supported it.
Well I thought russia covering up the real numbers was bad, but a cleric in the UK has proven me wrong.
<a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml' target='_blank'>Check out this nut job</a>
People like this do not help the problem, only add to it. The lack of outrage perplexes me though. I dont know if the media is giving them a free pass or if its become such common place that these remarks become nothing special.
<!--QuoteBegin-Handman+Sep 5 2004, 11:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Handman @ Sep 5 2004, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well I thought russia covering up the real numbers was bad, but a cleric in the UK has proven me wrong.
<a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml' target='_blank'>Check out this nut job</a>
People like this do not help the problem, only add to it. The lack of outrage perplexes me though. I dont know if the media is giving them a free pass or if its become such common place that these remarks become nothing special. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope someone from MI6 kills him in his sleep in a way that would very much appear to be a heart attack...
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Sep 5 2004, 09:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 5 2004, 09:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Sep 5 2004, 11:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Sep 5 2004, 11:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's quite strange how some right-winged americans post in this thread and demand the russians to use less force, to find a political solution to the Chechnyan conflict and criticize them to have screwed up.
Hello, are you even serious? You're the same people that defend the war in Iraq, you defend the hard-line-policy against terrorist suspects, you defend the guantanamo concentration camps.
So when the USA is responsible for thousands of civilian deaths it serves a good purpose but when Russians do the same it's "they screwed up". When 3000 people in the WTC die it's not that the USA "screwed up" to pevent it, but when over 400 people are massacred in Russia during a terrorist attack you suddenly remember to criticize the authorities no less than the terrorists themselves.
This hypocricy is a joke. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where abouts did I suggest LESS force? I suggested that the American special forces would have gone in with overwhelming force, and finished it up, for better or worse results, in a matter of minutes, not hours. Nor did I suggest a political solution for Chechnya - and given the actions of these terrorists I find it very hard to generate any sympathy for them.
American's in Iraq acted to preserve as much civilian life as possible. Thats why you didnt see B52's carpet bombing Baghdad - you saw laser guided missiles. Dont get me wrong - the clear evil here is the terrorists. I just think the whole cleanup could have been a little more professional.
And I see no parallel between this situation and 9/11. Once the terrorists had control of the planes it was game over. In this situation, the government got to make all the hard calls, to actually fight. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Right.. so U.S. special forces rushing in would definitely solve all problems. The Russian forces are obviously and utterly obsolete. Dream on. You do not even know how the events unfolded in Beslan. So don't start making assumptions or drawing conclusions from thin air - or from the media for that matter.
Best to wait for a while to find out exactly what happened in that school raid, since you really cannot trust anything other than unanimous eyewitness accounts. Taken from <a href='http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_re_eu/russia_school_seizure&cid=518&ncid=716' target='_blank'>Yahoo! News</a>:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Russian officials said the bloodbath began when explosions were apparently set off by the militants — possibly by accident — as emergency workers entered the courtyard to collect the bodies of hostages killed earlier.
They said the militants opened fire on the hostages who started to flee in the confusion, prompting security forces and armed locals to return fire and send in commandos.
Blasts also tore through the roof of the bomb-wired gymnasium, where hundreds of hostages had been herded by their captors, sending wreckage down on victims, crushing many of them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chances are that this is not exactly what happened. Whatever did happen, the result is tragic - much more devastating than the theater incident. Chances are, Putin won't do much about it - he only parades in front of the media, while his own agenda comes first.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Sep 3 2004, 07:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 3 2004, 07:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont doubt the Russians are trained, but if any special forces entry takes 2 hours to complete, then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. Two hours is a hell of a long time to carry on a gun battle when the entry is supposed to be surgical, swift and overwhelming. I wouldnt be surprised if the Russians took in a tank, heavy machine guns and standard issue tents.....
And besides - why should I give russian special forces the benefit of the doubt? I seem to remember a certain seige of a theatre that didnt go terribly well.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> By the sounds of it though, the Russians did not enter on their own timing, but were forced to engage due to changing events. Of course this eventuality should have been prepared for, given the high probability that things would "go south".
However, keep these American examples in mind:
SWAT took hours to secure Columbine.
The battle in which Saddam's Sons were killed lasted for +/- 6 hours.
Now I realize these situations are not exactly the same as this latest incident but they do illustrate how difficult these operations can be.
Also, I don't see how can you possibly be "surgical and swift" when you have 1000 people in a building. I just don't see it happening. How can you get in with the hordes wanting out ?
From what I understand from CNN the russian forces lost 10 with 30 terrorists killed. That sounds pretty good considering the advantage would lie with the group holding the building.
As for the theatre seige I thought the idea of using gas in and of itself was rather innovative; unfortunately it seems they didn't have the experience and supplies to help all the victims of the gas afterwards. Obviously this should have been thought out properly, but still not a bad idea per se. How many would have been killed otherwise due to suicide bombs ?
Now as I recall, Mr Bush said he was embarking on a war on terror did he not?
Now where is that War On Terror in Russia? Where is the American support for the Russians. (And don't give me any of that "Its not our conflict", you made it your conflict when you embarked on this "Crusade against terrorism")
This is terrorism and it seems rather spiteful and mean to suddenly say "Oh its not our problem" when it is the same thing you set out to fight against. Then theres something wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just voicing an opinion on this matter here.
Now as I recall, Mr Bush said he was embarking on a war on terror did he not?
Now where is that War On Terror in Russia? Where is the American support for the Russians. (And don't give me any of that "Its not our conflict", you made it your conflict when you embarked on this "Crusade against terrorism")
This is terrorism and it seems rather spiteful and mean to suddenly say "Oh its not our problem" when it is the same thing you set out to fight against. Then theres something wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bush is supporting Putin on this matter, and I agree with both of them.
From all of the reports that I've read, it sounds like the Russian special forces were dealt a poor hand and had to make due with what they had. It sounds very similar to the Waco siege, only with a higher number of casualties.
If Russia brings the hammer down for this, I wouldn't be surprised. Russia is known for a lot of things, but leniency isn't really one of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By the sounds of it though, the Russians did not enter on their own timing, but were forced to engage due to changing events. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Sep 1 2004, 12:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Sep 1 2004, 12:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-agentx5+Sep 1 2004, 02:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (agentx5 @ Sep 1 2004, 02:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *smacks forehead* I don't give a **** who said it reasa. lol If I had said something of that nature than I am a racist catagorizing fool as well.
I was cautioning against such speech. Can we agree on that? I think we can.
And as I said, I can appreciate a joke/wit/whatever but I dodn't find it funny or true.
That's all. Quit trying to re-interpret and add your "spin" onto a warning please.
~edit~
Apologies to thread starter for getting everyone off topic. It was not my intention. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1st: Don't apply your definition of a racist to me and then reprimand me assuming that yours is the universal definition. Again it was a joke and you over reacted because you wanted to be the first to point out the "racism" that never was never intended or even there to begin with. Trust me if I start making <i>racist</i> comments you'll know it.
2nd: What spin? Are you saying that the majority of terrorist groups aren't made up of Muslims?
Racial profiling is not racism, its common sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Calling people terrorists works both ways. You may think most of the Muslims are terrorists but the same goes for us. Most Muslim's believe that the majority of terrorists are Americans. It works both ways and if you don't look at it like that, you will never solve any of the problems in the Middle East.
But this really isn't about Muslims, this was about Russia wanting to keep this state as part of Russia specifically for its surplus in oil and natural gas. That region specifically is an economic goldmine for Russia and they would be insane to easily give it up. Terrorism on both sides is wrong but your not going to stop it unless you understand what each side of the terrorists want.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+Sep 7 2004, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ Sep 7 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most Muslim's believe that the majority of terrorists are Americans.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? Can I see something backing this up?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this really isn't about Muslims, this was about Russia wanting to keep this state as part of Russia specifically for its surplus in oil and natural gas. That region specifically is an economic goldmine for Russia and they would be insane to easily give it up. Terrorism on both sides is wrong but your not going to stop it unless you understand what each side of the terrorists want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the Russians know exactly what the Chechens want, and we know exactly what Al Qaeda wants, unfortunately for them it doesn’t matter because nether of them are going to get what they want.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Sep 7 2004, 04:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Sep 7 2004, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+Sep 7 2004, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ Sep 7 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most Muslim's believe that the majority of terrorists are Americans.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? Can I see something backing this up?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this really isn't about Muslims, this was about Russia wanting to keep this state as part of Russia specifically for its surplus in oil and natural gas. That region specifically is an economic goldmine for Russia and they would be insane to easily give it up. Terrorism on both sides is wrong but your not going to stop it unless you understand what each side of the terrorists want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the Russians know exactly what the Chechens want, and we know exactly what Al Qaeda wants, unfortunately for them it doesn’t matter because nether of them are going to get what they want. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, you can go over to an Islamic state and ask a bunch of random civilians what they think of America. Seriously, why did you even ask that.
Secondly, what do the Chechens really desire? If you think about it, it relates directly back to democracy. They want to be free, unfortunately Russia doesn't want that to happen. Now what they are doing to try and achieve this is completely wrong in many ways but what Russia does is also completely wrong. It makes you think what would actually be the best way to sort this problem out, and the answer is it will never be solved. The Chechens have something the Russians want, and the Chechens don't want someone to rule over them, they want their own state. Since that in itself creates conflict, there will be no way to FULLY stop that violence.
<!--QuoteBegin-CNN Article+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CNN Article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"As for launching pre-emptive strikes on terrorist bases, we will carry out all measures to liquidate terrorist bases in any region of the world," General Yuri Baluevsky, chief of Russia's general staff, said, according to Russian news agencies.
"However, this does not mean that we will launch <b>nuclear strikes</b>." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't remember GWB ever excplicity excluding WMD from our anti-terror campaign. To me the fact they the Russians make a point of saying this means that they are very serious... Or I could just need coffee.... who know?
<!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+Sep 8 2004, 01:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ Sep 8 2004, 01:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Sep 7 2004, 04:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Sep 7 2004, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+Sep 7 2004, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ Sep 7 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Most Muslim's believe that the majority of terrorists are Americans.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? Can I see something backing this up?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this really isn't about Muslims, this was about Russia wanting to keep this state as part of Russia specifically for its surplus in oil and natural gas. That region specifically is an economic goldmine for Russia and they would be insane to easily give it up. Terrorism on both sides is wrong but your not going to stop it unless you understand what each side of the terrorists want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the Russians know exactly what the Chechens want, and we know exactly what Al Qaeda wants, unfortunately for them it doesn’t matter because nether of them are going to get what they want. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, you can go over to an Islamic state and ask a bunch of random civilians what they think of America. Seriously, why did you even ask that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not liking us, and thinking we are terrorists are two different things. Whiles its probably true that a majority of the muslim world doesn't like the US, not all of them believe us to be terrorists. Just because the news only covers a few extremist groups. does not mean that muslims as a whole think their way. But if you are so sure, why don't you go over and ask for us. Reasa asked for proof, because you are making a strong claim with no proof to back you up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Calling people terrorists works both ways. You may think most of the Muslims are terrorists but the same goes for us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think it works that way. Yes it is unfortunate that children get killed in our bombing raids. We, however, do not take children hostage; force them to drink their own ****; bayonette small children through the chest for asking for water in 100 degree weather; then shoot the kids in the back when they run for their parents. So whats the difference? We try to avoid civilian casualties, aiming for military (terrorist) structures. If the Chechyans were attacking Russian military targets, then they would qualify as rebels and not terrorists.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
As the topic starter I would appreciate it if we could stop with the conjecture and speculation and start trying to find facts about the situation. I realize that there are many interpretations about what's happening there but I'm looking for documentation here.
I found this opinion article today and while I'm not sure about the validity of this news service, the story is definately interesting:
An unknown Chechen rebel group "Black Widows" organised the siege of a school in Russian city of Beslan that culminated in the killing of hundreds of people including children.
Authorities in Russian capital are trying to establish that some al-Qaeda sponsored militants including at least ten Arabs were responsible for the school tragedy but independent sources have indicated from the first day of the bloody event that more than five armed women were not only part of the militants but one of the women seemed to be the leader of the group.
In the past few years Shamil Basayev, an extremist Chechen separatist leader accepted the responsibility of many incidents in which innocent civilians were killed but this time there is no word from Basayev. Russian media is still guessing that who is responsible for the tragedy.
Some journalists in Moscow received anonymous calls on the second day of the siege in Beslan and they were told that militants have communicated their demands to the authorities but the authorities are not making public their demands.
They demanded the expulsion of Russian troops from Chechnya and the release of more than 8,000 Chechen prisoners from different jails in Russia. The anonymous callers also claimed that the group responsible for the siege is called "Black Widows of Chechnya".
Those women whose husbands or other loved ones were killed by Russians in last ten years joined this group. Russian media is not writing facts about the tragedy because except from some English newspapers, rest of the media is still under state control.
One state controlled TV channel criticised the Russian government's strategy on Sunday but many analysts said that the government was just trying to establish that media is not under control.
The name of the Black Widows was surfaced in July 2003 when a Chechen woman, Zarema was arrested in Moscow with a bomb in her bag. A bomb expert was brought to defuse it, but it went off and killed him.
A Moscow court found her guilty of terrorism, attempted murder and sentenced her to 20 years prison. Zarema told investigators, "She belongs to the Black Widows of Chechnya, their main aim is to take revenge from Russians, they killed our husbands and children, and we will kill their husbands and children."
Another source claimed the name of woman leading the Beslan operation was Khaula Nazirove, a 45 years old widow from Grozny. Her 18 years old son, 16 years old daughter and some other relatives were also part of the operation. They attacked the school because the husband of Khaula was killed by torture in Russian military camp five years ago, while some of their cousins were killed when Russians bombed a school a few years ago.
The latest wave of violence in Russia is related to the presidential election held in Chechnya on August 29. Russian President Putin visited Grozny few days before the election and gave an impression that there is complete peace in Russia. He also rejected any possibility of talks with the separatists.
Violence started two weeks before the election. More than 46 people were killed in the first three weeks of August in Chechnya but Russian authorities were down playing the situation there. Two planes were destroyed around Moscow in the morning of August 25th by suicide bombers but once again the Russian government claimed that there was no clear evidence of terrorism in the incidents in which more than 90 people were killed.
It was Moscow Times that published the names of two Chechen women suicide bombers who destroyed the planes: 30 years old Amnat Nagayeva destroyed TU-134 and 37 years old Satsita Dzhebirkhanova destroyed TU-154. All their relatives went underground after the incidents. Both of them were close friends and lost their husbands a few years ago in Chechnya.
It was expected after the destruction of two planes that Chechen groups will increase their attacks after the election but common Russians were not aware of the situation. The state controlled media told them that everything is all right in Chechnya.
This scribe covered that election as a first ever-Pakistani journalist to be in Chechnya with two dozen other journalists from European and Arab countries. All of us were stopped from visiting polling stations at 3 in the afternoon because there was no voters in the polling stations of Grozny.
The journalists were taken to 46th Brigade headquarter of the Russian army and their movement was restricted there. Next day a pre-planned result was announced that a pro-Moscow candidate Alu Alkhanove got 73 percent votes.
He replaced Ahmid Kadirov as the new president who was killed on May 9th this year in a bomb blast at the Grozny stadium. Immediately after the announcement of the election results, Alkhanov claimed that he would give peace and stability to Chechnya. When we were coming back from Grozny to Moscow, people on the streets were openly expressing their fears that Russia is heading towards big troubles.
The day we arrived in Moscow, we witnessed another suicide operation at a metro station in which 10 people were killed. Once again a Chechen woman conducted the operation.
We were told by some Chechens in Moscow that most of the Black Widows are not very well educated, they have little knowledge of Islam, they don't know that nobody can kill innocents in the name of Islam, these Widows are carrying just a revenge mission. They are getting training from the fighters of Shamil Basayev who is known to have contacts with Osama bin Laden in the past.
Dmitry Peskov, an official of the president office in Moscow, told us that Chechen rebels are getting arms from the black market of Central Asian states. He said Russian authorities recovered Pakistani, Turkish and Bosnian passports from some militants killed recently in an operation conducted on the border of Georgia.
Peskov said those militants might have been hiding outside Russia and were coming back on fake documents. He also disclosed that Pakistani passports were printed in Moscow, which means that the Pakistani government was not directly responsible for aiding the Chechen militants.
Some other sources claimed that Russian intelligence received information many weeks ago that some Chechen women trained in Pakistani tribal areas are heading towards Russia for their suicide operations but the Russian government kept silent.
Official sources in Moscow are not ready to say that why the demands of militants were not made public after the school siege in Beslan but some observers think that the whole affair was mishandled by the Russian security forces.
According to sources, the militants sent a message through a woman that they want to address a press conference to explain that why they have targeted a school. At the initial stage Russian authorities indicated that they are ready to negotiate with the militants but actually they were taking time for a military operation. When Russian commandos attacked the school, three women suicide bombers blown their bodies and killed hundreds of others.
The whole Russia is in shock after the Beslan tragedy. The ruthless Black Widows have very successfully projected that everything is not all right in Chechnya, they will not accept an ex-Russian police officer as the new president following the rigged elections.
Putin must engage separatists in a dialogue. He can talk to Aslan Maskhadov, a moderate Chechen leader who served in Afghanistan as a Soviet army officer for many years.
He was accepted as the president of Independent Chechnya in 1997 but after two years Russians attacked Grozny and moderate Maskhadov was dominated by extremist Basayev who is providing logistic support to Black Widows.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've also heard (and for the life of me I can't remember where) that a portion of the terrorists in the school were Arabs (unconfirmed by me so far) and that when a portion of the terrorists realized they were holding children, the Arabs shot them. Now, before we get all crazy and calling me a rascist, I want it clear that I can't confirm this story. I was hoping someone else may have read something similar and could post it. If not, I'll assume the story is wrong.
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cant help but think that if the American special forces had carried out the assualt, it would have been over in a matter of minutes. Instead, the Russians had a 2 hour gun battle in the school, then let several escape into nearby buildings. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I somehow doubt that. Operations like these are trikcy, no matter what your nationality.
I dont doubt the Russians are trained, but if any special forces entry takes 2 hours to complete, then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. Two hours is a hell of a long time to carry on a gun battle when the entry is supposed to be surgical, swift and overwhelming. I wouldnt be surprised if the Russians took in a tank, heavy machine guns and standard issue tents.....
And besides - why should I give russian special forces the benefit of the doubt? I seem to remember a certain seige of a theatre that didnt go terribly well....
Basically it's too early to tell, just wait and see.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And besides - why should I give russian special forces the benefit of the doubt? I seem to remember a certain seige of a theatre that didnt go terribly well.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
America has had their fair share of botched raids and special forces operations. Operation Tiger Claw, Somolia, Waco, and so on.
And the russian forces have probably not even stormed the school. Nobody knows for sure what's happening at the moment, how many were killed, how many are injured and how many terrorsist escaped and where they are.
So before posting bs just wait until there is reliable information in a few hours. And marine01, I'm quite sure the russian inland forces are way much more trained than in any other country <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
CNN said it was over and that some were killed and that some escaped. This incident is over.
So take your own advice.
And our special forces are some of the most well trained in the entire world. Definitely better trained than those Russia used here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->latest from sky. Russians went in with stretchers to remove the dead (when did these people die? summary executions?) when a female hostage taker apparently accidentally triggered her explosives. Hostages bolted for it, terrorists shot at them, military (and locals) responded to protect them,turning it into a full firefight. Terrorists panicked and blew explosives in gym, where apparently there are 100 dead. (horrible as that is, I guess it could have been massively higher). After the firefight cooled down a bit, 13 terrorists bolted for it apparently dressed as hostages, then took up position in another building, and are still fighting apparently. There are also reports of at least 4 terrorists (including the head honcho) held up in a basement. Apparently they STILL have children hostage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is the case, then the situation destabilized and escalated, rather than a botched pre-meditated assault on the school by military forces as everyone seems to have initially assumed.
In other words, the crappy situation got worse and the military had to act and act now. I would imagine this will almost always result in more casualties than a pre-planned assault, regardless of what countries special forces are used. I highly doubt "american special forces" (or any other for that matter) would have been able to do much better.
Welcome to the study of Russia.
also for those of you who want info on russian special forces: <a href='http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Russia/Spetznaz.htm' target='_blank'>look here</a>
here is a key point about how they operate:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
it appears that rescuing hostages came second in priority to killing terrorists
-Dr Mark Galleoti (about the theatre incident)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CWAG, I certainly hope you got suspended for that one...
Meh why? I agree with him, we all knew it was going to end this way, it had to happen some time.
Meh why? I agree with him, we all knew it was going to end this way, it had to happen some time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because if over 300 bodies counts as "problem solved", then something's terribly wrong.
Did anyone expect anything except this outcome? Doesn't anyone remember the last time there was a mass hostage situation in Russia? Moscow, the Ballet Theater, they stormed that to. They almost always storm the building and use force. Taking hostages... they got the wrong idea on how to cow the Russians... These are the same folks who simply shelled Pervomayskaya into the dirt when the enemy started to kill folks... Lose a few hostages? "Oh-well, we got a few back."
I see a lot of people who look at this as a big failure, but for the Russians it's a success, the enemy is dead, they got a few people back. Everyone always expects the "good guys" to win and to get all the bad folks and rescue everyone, but for the most part glamorous Rainbow-6 assaults always fail.
This is just another event in the long and bloody war between the Russians and the Chechnyans, isn't the first, not the last, and it wont end until the Russians are no longer restrained by the international community, and simply slam a hammer down on the people of Chechnya.
Did anyone expect anything except this outcome? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wan't saying that. I was saying even if everyone knew what was coming CWAG didn't have to be an ***hole about it.
Hello, are you even serious? You're the same people that defend the war in Iraq, you defend the hard-line-policy against terrorist suspects, you defend the guantanamo concentration camps.
So when the USA is responsible for thousands of civilian deaths it serves a good purpose but when Russians do the same it's "they screwed up". When 3000 people in the WTC die it's not that the USA "screwed up" to pevent it, but when over 400 people are massacred in Russia during a terrorist attack you suddenly remember to criticize the authorities no less than the terrorists themselves.
This hypocricy is a joke.
Hello, are you even serious? You're the same people that defend the war in Iraq, you defend the hard-line-policy against terrorist suspects, you defend the guantanamo concentration camps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are completely different circumstances.
Hello, are you even serious? You're the same people that defend the war in Iraq, you defend the hard-line-policy against terrorist suspects, you defend the guantanamo concentration camps.
So when the USA is responsible for thousands of civilian deaths it serves a good purpose but when Russians do the same it's "they screwed up". When 3000 people in the WTC die it's not that the USA "screwed up" to pevent it, but when over 400 people are massacred in Russia during a terrorist attack you suddenly remember to criticize the authorities no less than the terrorists themselves.
This hypocricy is a joke. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where abouts did I suggest LESS force? I suggested that the American special forces would have gone in with overwhelming force, and finished it up, for better or worse results, in a matter of minutes, not hours. Nor did I suggest a political solution for Chechnya - and given the actions of these terrorists I find it very hard to generate any sympathy for them.
American's in Iraq acted to preserve as much civilian life as possible. Thats why you didnt see B52's carpet bombing Baghdad - you saw laser guided missiles. Dont get me wrong - the clear evil here is the terrorists. I just think the whole cleanup could have been a little more professional.
And I see no parallel between this situation and 9/11. Once the terrorists had control of the planes it was game over. In this situation, the government got to make all the hard calls, to actually fight.
Hello, are you even serious? You're the same people that defend the war in Iraq, you defend the hard-line-policy against terrorist suspects, you defend the guantanamo concentration camps.
So when the USA is responsible for thousands of civilian deaths it serves a good purpose but when Russians do the same it's "they screwed up". When 3000 people in the WTC die it's not that the USA "screwed up" to pevent it, but when over 400 people are massacred in Russia during a terrorist attack you suddenly remember to criticize the authorities no less than the terrorists themselves.
This hypocricy is a joke. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you misread some posts or something, as far as Russia is concerned this raid was a success. I knew they would use force from the beginning and I supported it.
<a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml' target='_blank'>Check out this nut job</a>
People like this do not help the problem, only add to it. The lack of outrage perplexes me though. I dont know if the media is giving them a free pass or if its become such common place that these remarks become nothing special.
<a href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml' target='_blank'>Check out this nut job</a>
People like this do not help the problem, only add to it. The lack of outrage perplexes me though. I dont know if the media is giving them a free pass or if its become such common place that these remarks become nothing special. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope someone from MI6 kills him in his sleep in a way that would very much appear to be a heart attack...
Hello, are you even serious? You're the same people that defend the war in Iraq, you defend the hard-line-policy against terrorist suspects, you defend the guantanamo concentration camps.
So when the USA is responsible for thousands of civilian deaths it serves a good purpose but when Russians do the same it's "they screwed up". When 3000 people in the WTC die it's not that the USA "screwed up" to pevent it, but when over 400 people are massacred in Russia during a terrorist attack you suddenly remember to criticize the authorities no less than the terrorists themselves.
This hypocricy is a joke. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where abouts did I suggest LESS force? I suggested that the American special forces would have gone in with overwhelming force, and finished it up, for better or worse results, in a matter of minutes, not hours. Nor did I suggest a political solution for Chechnya - and given the actions of these terrorists I find it very hard to generate any sympathy for them.
American's in Iraq acted to preserve as much civilian life as possible. Thats why you didnt see B52's carpet bombing Baghdad - you saw laser guided missiles. Dont get me wrong - the clear evil here is the terrorists. I just think the whole cleanup could have been a little more professional.
And I see no parallel between this situation and 9/11. Once the terrorists had control of the planes it was game over. In this situation, the government got to make all the hard calls, to actually fight. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right.. so U.S. special forces rushing in would definitely solve all problems. The Russian forces are obviously and utterly obsolete. Dream on. You do not even know how the events unfolded in Beslan. So don't start making assumptions or drawing conclusions from thin air - or from the media for that matter.
Best to wait for a while to find out exactly what happened in that school raid, since you really cannot trust anything other than unanimous eyewitness accounts. Taken from <a href='http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_re_eu/russia_school_seizure&cid=518&ncid=716' target='_blank'>Yahoo! News</a>:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Russian officials said the bloodbath began when explosions were apparently set off by the militants — possibly by accident — as emergency workers entered the courtyard to collect the bodies of hostages killed earlier.
They said the militants opened fire on the hostages who started to flee in the confusion, prompting security forces and armed locals to return fire and send in commandos.
Blasts also tore through the roof of the bomb-wired gymnasium, where hundreds of hostages had been herded by their captors, sending wreckage down on victims, crushing many of them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chances are that this is not exactly what happened. Whatever did happen, the result is tragic - much more devastating than the theater incident. Chances are, Putin won't do much about it - he only parades in front of the media, while his own agenda comes first.
And besides - why should I give russian special forces the benefit of the doubt? I seem to remember a certain seige of a theatre that didnt go terribly well.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the sounds of it though, the Russians did not enter on their own timing, but were forced to engage due to changing events. Of course this eventuality should have been prepared for, given the high probability that things would "go south".
However, keep these American examples in mind:
SWAT took hours to secure Columbine.
The battle in which Saddam's Sons were killed lasted for +/- 6 hours.
<a href='http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/07/22/sons_saddam030722' target='_blank'>Gun Battle</a>
Now I realize these situations are not exactly the same as this latest incident but they do illustrate how difficult these operations can be.
Also, I don't see how can you possibly be "surgical and swift" when you have 1000 people in a building. I just don't see it happening. How can you get in with the hordes wanting out ?
From what I understand from CNN the russian forces lost 10 with 30 terrorists killed. That sounds pretty good considering the advantage would lie with the group holding the building.
As for the theatre seige I thought the idea of using gas in and of itself was rather innovative; unfortunately it seems they didn't have the experience and supplies to help all the victims of the gas afterwards. Obviously this should have been thought out properly, but still not a bad idea per se. How many would have been killed otherwise due to suicide bombs ?
Now as I recall, Mr Bush said he was embarking on a war on terror did he not?
Now where is that War On Terror in Russia? Where is the American support for the Russians. (And don't give me any of that "Its not our conflict", you made it your conflict when you embarked on this "Crusade against terrorism")
This is terrorism and it seems rather spiteful and mean to suddenly say "Oh its not our problem" when it is the same thing you set out to fight against. Then theres something wrong.
Now as I recall, Mr Bush said he was embarking on a war on terror did he not?
Now where is that War On Terror in Russia? Where is the American support for the Russians. (And don't give me any of that "Its not our conflict", you made it your conflict when you embarked on this "Crusade against terrorism")
This is terrorism and it seems rather spiteful and mean to suddenly say "Oh its not our problem" when it is the same thing you set out to fight against. Then theres something wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3621140.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3621140.stm</a>
Bush is supporting Putin on this matter, and I agree with both of them.
From all of the reports that I've read, it sounds like the Russian special forces were dealt a poor hand and had to make due with what they had. It sounds very similar to the Waco siege, only with a higher number of casualties.
If Russia brings the hammer down for this, I wouldn't be surprised. Russia is known for a lot of things, but leniency isn't really one of them.
There you go.
I was cautioning against such speech. Can we agree on that? I think we can.
And as I said, I can appreciate a joke/wit/whatever but I dodn't find it funny or true.
That's all. Quit trying to re-interpret and add your "spin" onto a warning please.
~edit~
Apologies to thread starter for getting everyone off topic. It was not my intention. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1st: Don't apply your definition of a racist to me and then reprimand me assuming that yours is the universal definition. Again it was a joke and you over reacted because you wanted to be the first to point out the "racism" that never was never intended or even there to begin with. Trust me if I start making <i>racist</i> comments you'll know it.
2nd: What spin? Are you saying that the majority of terrorist groups aren't made up of Muslims?
Racial profiling is not racism, its common sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Calling people terrorists works both ways. You may think most of the Muslims are terrorists but the same goes for us. Most Muslim's believe that the majority of terrorists are Americans. It works both ways and if you don't look at it like that, you will never solve any of the problems in the Middle East.
But this really isn't about Muslims, this was about Russia wanting to keep this state as part of Russia specifically for its surplus in oil and natural gas. That region specifically is an economic goldmine for Russia and they would be insane to easily give it up. Terrorism on both sides is wrong but your not going to stop it unless you understand what each side of the terrorists want.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Can I see something backing this up?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this really isn't about Muslims, this was about Russia wanting to keep this state as part of Russia specifically for its surplus in oil and natural gas. That region specifically is an economic goldmine for Russia and they would be insane to easily give it up. Terrorism on both sides is wrong but your not going to stop it unless you understand what each side of the terrorists want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the Russians know exactly what the Chechens want, and we know exactly what Al Qaeda wants, unfortunately for them it doesn’t matter because nether of them are going to get what they want.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Can I see something backing this up?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this really isn't about Muslims, this was about Russia wanting to keep this state as part of Russia specifically for its surplus in oil and natural gas. That region specifically is an economic goldmine for Russia and they would be insane to easily give it up. Terrorism on both sides is wrong but your not going to stop it unless you understand what each side of the terrorists want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the Russians know exactly what the Chechens want, and we know exactly what Al Qaeda wants, unfortunately for them it doesn’t matter because nether of them are going to get what they want. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, you can go over to an Islamic state and ask a bunch of random civilians what they think of America. Seriously, why did you even ask that.
Secondly, what do the Chechens really desire? If you think about it, it relates directly back to democracy. They want to be free, unfortunately Russia doesn't want that to happen. Now what they are doing to try and achieve this is completely wrong in many ways but what Russia does is also completely wrong. It makes you think what would actually be the best way to sort this problem out, and the answer is it will never be solved. The Chechens have something the Russians want, and the Chechens don't want someone to rule over them, they want their own state. Since that in itself creates conflict, there will be no way to FULLY stop that violence.
<a href='http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-RTO-roitz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20040908%2F0627683863.htm&sc=roitz&photoid=20040906BES23D&floc=NW_1-T' target='_blank'>http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/story.jsp...23D&floc=NW_1-T</a>
Hope that link works.
Pay close attention here:
<!--QuoteBegin-CNN Article+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CNN Article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"As for launching pre-emptive strikes on terrorist bases, we will carry out all measures to liquidate terrorist bases in any region of the world," General Yuri Baluevsky, chief of Russia's general staff, said, according to Russian news agencies.
"However, this does not mean that we will launch <b>nuclear strikes</b>." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't remember GWB ever excplicity excluding WMD from our anti-terror campaign. To me the fact they the Russians make a point of saying this means that they are very serious... Or I could just need coffee.... who know?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Can I see something backing this up?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this really isn't about Muslims, this was about Russia wanting to keep this state as part of Russia specifically for its surplus in oil and natural gas. That region specifically is an economic goldmine for Russia and they would be insane to easily give it up. Terrorism on both sides is wrong but your not going to stop it unless you understand what each side of the terrorists want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the Russians know exactly what the Chechens want, and we know exactly what Al Qaeda wants, unfortunately for them it doesn’t matter because nether of them are going to get what they want. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, you can go over to an Islamic state and ask a bunch of random civilians what they think of America. Seriously, why did you even ask that.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not liking us, and thinking we are terrorists are two different things. Whiles its probably true that a majority of the muslim world doesn't like the US, not all of them believe us to be terrorists. Just because the news only covers a few extremist groups. does not mean that muslims as a whole think their way. But if you are so sure, why don't you go over and ask for us. Reasa asked for proof, because you are making a strong claim with no proof to back you up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Calling people terrorists works both ways. You may think most of the Muslims are terrorists but the same goes for us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think it works that way. Yes it is unfortunate that children get killed in our bombing raids. We, however, do not take children hostage; force them to drink their own ****; bayonette small children through the chest for asking for water in 100 degree weather; then shoot the kids in the back when they run for their parents. So whats the difference? We try to avoid civilian casualties, aiming for military (terrorist) structures. If the Chechyans were attacking Russian military targets, then they would qualify as rebels and not terrorists.
I found this opinion article today and while I'm not sure about the validity of this news service, the story is definately interesting:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Black Widows behind Russian School Tragedy</b>
Point of View: 7 September 2004, Tuesday.
HiPakistan.com
By Hamid Mir
An unknown Chechen rebel group "Black Widows" organised the siege of a school in Russian city of Beslan that culminated in the killing of hundreds of people including children.
Authorities in Russian capital are trying to establish that some al-Qaeda sponsored militants including at least ten Arabs were responsible for the school tragedy but independent sources have indicated from the first day of the bloody event that more than five armed women were not only part of the militants but one of the women seemed to be the leader of the group.
In the past few years Shamil Basayev, an extremist Chechen separatist leader accepted the responsibility of many incidents in which innocent civilians were killed but this time there is no word from Basayev. Russian media is still guessing that who is responsible for the tragedy.
Some journalists in Moscow received anonymous calls on the second day of the siege in Beslan and they were told that militants have communicated their demands to the authorities but the authorities are not making public their demands.
They demanded the expulsion of Russian troops from Chechnya and the release of more than 8,000 Chechen prisoners from different jails in Russia. The anonymous callers also claimed that the group responsible for the siege is called "Black Widows of Chechnya".
Those women whose husbands or other loved ones were killed by Russians in last ten years joined this group. Russian media is not writing facts about the tragedy because except from some English newspapers, rest of the media is still under state control.
One state controlled TV channel criticised the Russian government's strategy on Sunday but many analysts said that the government was just trying to establish that media is not under control.
The name of the Black Widows was surfaced in July 2003 when a Chechen woman, Zarema was arrested in Moscow with a bomb in her bag. A bomb expert was brought to defuse it, but it went off and killed him.
A Moscow court found her guilty of terrorism, attempted murder and sentenced her to 20 years prison. Zarema told investigators, "She belongs to the Black Widows of Chechnya, their main aim is to take revenge from Russians, they killed our husbands and children, and we will kill their husbands and children."
Another source claimed the name of woman leading the Beslan operation was Khaula Nazirove, a 45 years old widow from Grozny. Her 18 years old son, 16 years old daughter and some other relatives were also part of the operation. They attacked the school because the husband of Khaula was killed by torture in Russian military camp five years ago, while some of their cousins were killed when Russians bombed a school a few years ago.
The latest wave of violence in Russia is related to the presidential election held in Chechnya on August 29. Russian President Putin visited Grozny few days before the election and gave an impression that there is complete peace in Russia. He also rejected any possibility of talks with the separatists.
Violence started two weeks before the election. More than 46 people were killed in the first three weeks of August in Chechnya but Russian authorities were down playing the situation there. Two planes were destroyed around Moscow in the morning of August 25th by suicide bombers but once again the Russian government claimed that there was no clear evidence of terrorism in the incidents in which more than 90 people were killed.
It was Moscow Times that published the names of two Chechen women suicide bombers who destroyed the planes: 30 years old Amnat Nagayeva destroyed TU-134 and 37 years old Satsita Dzhebirkhanova destroyed TU-154. All their relatives went underground after the incidents. Both of them were close friends and lost their husbands a few years ago in Chechnya.
It was expected after the destruction of two planes that Chechen groups will increase their attacks after the election but common Russians were not aware of the situation. The state controlled media told them that everything is all right in Chechnya.
This scribe covered that election as a first ever-Pakistani journalist to be in Chechnya with two dozen other journalists from European and Arab countries. All of us were stopped from visiting polling stations at 3 in the afternoon because there was no voters in the polling stations of Grozny.
The journalists were taken to 46th Brigade headquarter of the Russian army and their movement was restricted there. Next day a pre-planned result was announced that a pro-Moscow candidate Alu Alkhanove got 73 percent votes.
He replaced Ahmid Kadirov as the new president who was killed on May 9th this year in a bomb blast at the Grozny stadium. Immediately after the announcement of the election results, Alkhanov claimed that he would give peace and stability to Chechnya. When we were coming back from Grozny to Moscow, people on the streets were openly expressing their fears that Russia is heading towards big troubles.
The day we arrived in Moscow, we witnessed another suicide operation at a metro station in which 10 people were killed. Once again a Chechen woman conducted the operation.
We were told by some Chechens in Moscow that most of the Black Widows are not very well educated, they have little knowledge of Islam, they don't know that nobody can kill innocents in the name of Islam, these Widows are carrying just a revenge mission. They are getting training from the fighters of Shamil Basayev who is known to have contacts with Osama bin Laden in the past.
Dmitry Peskov, an official of the president office in Moscow, told us that Chechen rebels are getting arms from the black market of Central Asian states. He said Russian authorities recovered Pakistani, Turkish and Bosnian passports from some militants killed recently in an operation conducted on the border of Georgia.
Peskov said those militants might have been hiding outside Russia and were coming back on fake documents. He also disclosed that Pakistani passports were printed in Moscow, which means that the Pakistani government was not directly responsible for aiding the Chechen militants.
Some other sources claimed that Russian intelligence received information many weeks ago that some Chechen women trained in Pakistani tribal areas are heading towards Russia for their suicide operations but the Russian government kept silent.
Official sources in Moscow are not ready to say that why the demands of militants were not made public after the school siege in Beslan but some observers think that the whole affair was mishandled by the Russian security forces.
According to sources, the militants sent a message through a woman that they want to address a press conference to explain that why they have targeted a school. At the initial stage Russian authorities indicated that they are ready to negotiate with the militants but actually they were taking time for a military operation. When Russian commandos attacked the school, three women suicide bombers blown their bodies and killed hundreds of others.
The whole Russia is in shock after the Beslan tragedy. The ruthless Black Widows have very successfully projected that everything is not all right in Chechnya, they will not accept an ex-Russian police officer as the new president following the rigged elections.
Putin must engage separatists in a dialogue. He can talk to Aslan Maskhadov, a moderate Chechen leader who served in Afghanistan as a Soviet army officer for many years.
He was accepted as the president of Independent Chechnya in 1997 but after two years Russians attacked Grozny and moderate Maskhadov was dominated by extremist Basayev who is providing logistic support to Black Widows.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've also heard (and for the life of me I can't remember where) that a portion of the terrorists in the school were Arabs (unconfirmed by me so far) and that when a portion of the terrorists realized they were holding children, the Arabs shot them. Now, before we get all crazy and calling me a rascist, I want it clear that I can't confirm this story. I was hoping someone else may have read something similar and could post it. If not, I'll assume the story is wrong.