I am going to tell a story and it may seem pointless, but just hold on. I am sort of explaining where I came by everything.
So back when I was twelve or thirteen (one of the two), my family got its first computer, a blazing fast Compaq 486 dx2/50, with a 1200bps modem (!!). And with it we get the INTERNET YELLOW PAGES, yes, a paper book with lists and locations of things on the internet. These were the days before google, kids. And at the same time I had just discovered the Pern series by the inimitable dirty old lady, Anne McCaffrey. And lookie here in the internet web pages there was a listing for a newsgroup called alt.fan.dragons. Imagine my pubescent joy when I found that not only did these people think winged lizards were the best thing since sliced bread, they said they <i>were</i> winged lizards. I joined in, and posted actively for a while, and then fell back out for a while, then came back, so on and so forth. And as you'd expect there was some crossover between all the dragon people and the furries, and as it happens I eventually met my first real long-term boyfriend through contact with the whole a.f.d. grouping. And he was a capital-F furry, and through him I associated with other capital-F furries and, well.
Here are some general trends about the whole thing that I found distasteful.
1. "Fursecution".
Ok so to start with wow, please, can we not make up retarded words like fursecution and furson and fursona and argh, stop it, really. That said, the furry community is just all up in boners over the idea of being the oppressed minorities of the internet. There are few things a furry likes talking about more than how they're unfairly stereotyped, put down, and otherwise bullied by the world at large. Read some furry fiction, excluding the pornography if you wish. I'll bet you $1.50 that it won't take you too long to find a furry story where animal people are the slaves/poor people/lynching victims of the world. So really what you've got is a group comprised of a majority of well-fed white males going "OMG WE ARE SO PROSECUTED <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->(((" and in the face of, say, Darfur, it rings a little hollow and offensive.
2. Thoughtcrime
A natural outgrowth of the first point is what a poster somewhere in this thread referred to as "open mindedness". That is something of a red herring, because the reality is that it is <b>never ok</b> to criticize in the world of the furry. The aforementioned bf could <i>not</i> draw. I am ******* you not, his drawings were awful grade-school scribbles on notebook paper. Which is fine, I can't draw either, but the problem was that he'd been trained by the furry community online to expect nothing but praise of his quote work endquote. So when I bought him a basic drawing book as a gift, he flipped out and got sulky and argh. If you don't believe, hunt down the furries on deviant art and read the comments they leave on each other's drawings. Circle-jerking of the ego.
Which of course is inconsistent because the furry community likes to rant and rave about the RIAA etc, who are as far as I can tell, ideological allies of the furries. They both share absolute views of copyrights, unprecedented in their scope and powers in human history, so how a furry can be all DOWN WITH THE DMCA, I have no idea.
4. Laziness
My ex and so many of his friends were unemployed and chronically so. Why? Because they had the soul of a majestic unicorn or whatever, and a million past lives, etc etc and in the end, dull human work was just below them. This also tended towards a certain degree of misanthropy, as they were so far above the mundanes or what have you.
5. Jailhouse ****
There're a lot of perpetual virgins in the land of furry that eventually decide, hey, if I can stick it in Bill over there, that's almost as good as a girl, and it's not as if I'll ever touch a girl anyways. Then of course the jailhouse **** contingent likes to trade on the **** aspect of imagining themselves to be put down by the man, and it's just ugh.
Things that don't bother me:
1. Bizarre pornography
This is one of the criticisms you see levelled at the furries on a regular basis, and I've never gotten that. Shti, it's just a drawing - it's not like an actual planet was destroyed by a gigantic phallus to bring them this jerking material. I reserve my horror for... actually horrific things, like Ed Gein and Islamic militants sawing a man's head off. If some guy wants to masturbate sticking his dong in a plush rabbit, I could not care less. Dan Savage, king of sex advice columnists, touched on this a while back too. Your fetishes are your fetishes, and they're hard to control - I'm actually willing to be a little more charitable if someone just thinks wolfmen are sexier than regular men than if they just... never grew up.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited August 2004
The lack of actual artwork criticism is an unfortunate side-effect in a social circle mostly comprised of people whose lives already aren't doing all that hot, a good chunk of which make alter-egos as a form of escapism to distance themselves from their actual lives... usually expressed through an ever-growing story of magnificence. As a somewhat-vaguely-esteemed figure in the community had said... "Why do I always see these majestic or cute animals? I mean, we have dragons, unicorns, wolves, tigers... when's the last time you saw someone with a displaced cockroach-spirit? Or even identified with one?"
Personally, when I'm asked to look at a piece of art, I give good forewarning that I will be pointing out the flaws primarily, as they are what the artist needs to see to improve; also, that anything I see as flawed does not need to (and cannot) be 'explained away'. If someone is looking at it for the first time, and this leg looks too big, or the hands are too small, I really don't particularly care if it's supposed to be an attempt at perspective. If it doesn't look right, it failed. This is also why I do not do art-critic duty on any major posting site.. favoring either in-person examination of the sketchbook, or an e-mailed scan.
(edit) Oh, and lest I forget. <span style='color:green'>Thread cleaning complete.</span> This is not intended to degrade into yet another religious debate. It is not an area to post things along the lines of 'you deluded freaks'. It is intended to expose and help people understand somewhat as to how the furry fandom operates.
<b>If you did not read the thread all the way through, go back and do it.</b> Read each post, as they have relevance (though some may have been concatenated by the cleaning-out of useless, off-topic, or otherwise insulting lines of discussion).
Ok so to start with wow, please, can we not make up retarded words like fursecution and furson and fursona and argh, stop it, really. That said, the furry community is just all up in boners over the idea of being the oppressed minorities of the internet. There are few things a furry likes talking about more than how they're unfairly stereotyped, put down, and otherwise bullied by the world at large. Read some furry fiction, excluding the pornography if you wish. I'll bet you $1.50 that it won't take you too long to find a furry story where animal people are the slaves/poor people/lynching victims of the world. So really what you've got is a group comprised of a majority of well-fed white males going "OMG WE ARE SO PROSECUTED <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->(((" and in the face of, say, Darfur, it rings a little hollow and offensive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I fail to see how any of the reasons you give as to why the furry community displeases you can be said as unique to the furry community. Yes, a lot of furries think they are persecuted, but so do most 'net goths, so does every kid who gets banned from a server for being stupid, so does basically every geek at some point in their lives.
The ego gratification in art is something that is usually worse in the furry community, but it does exist outside of it. Go to any fanart site for anything and you're bound to find someone who thinks they are awesome for drawing stick people and get **** when they get told they need work. It's worse amoungst furries because furry is so based around art that a lot more furries try to be artists, and therefore a lot more furries who can't draw try to be artists. And as for the copyright stuff, once again most art on the net suffers from that problem, some places much moreso than furries, like webcomics. In general I would say people who draw webcomics are much much more sensitive to "art theft" than anyone else including furries.
Furries are of course the only nerds to not have jobs. Although I think for most of the furries on these particular boards that would prove to be not the case.
Now the whole jailhouse **** (although to nit pick it usually ends up as jailhouse bi, I've seen a few polls on the subject and most agree that the % of actual homsexual furres is only somewhere around 15% to 20%, which is not THAT much out of sync with the general populace) thing I can kinda see why you would think that, I can count all the straight furries I know on one hand, but I have also found that as large a percentage of furry girls are bisexual as are furry guys, if not moreso, which doesn't make much sense if you are to attribute it to "jailhouse ****" since by your logic any furry girl would have her proverbial pick of the litter.
I'm just saying, furries are basically just like any other nerdly group out there on the internet, except with tails.
... the reality is that it is <b>never ok</b> to criticize ... the furry. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Spot on.
To expound on this idea, I'd say that it goes much further than just art. Anyone viewing the subject in a less than favorable light, even if they are willing to partake in a civil and logical discussion, is immediately and unquestioningly painted as some sort of horrible bigot, told to shut up, etc.
...
I was going to attempt to spark some further discussion on the subject beyond "I like to draw animal people" but after consideration, I really think it's a fruitless endeavour. The vehement refusal to acknowledge criticsms or differing viewpoints is something that seems to abound anywhere there is more than one or two of them together. I'd say Talesin has offered a fair explination of why this is the case. It's too bad, really.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited August 2004
Actually, an explanation as to why that happened was never offered, Edward. The truth of that matter is more an attempt to be over-polite, on the grounds that any harsh word might hurt someone's feelings, and bring down the wrath of the injured party's friends.
True, the semi-social-dysfunction (also known as having an interest that the general world does not share) does heighten that particular threat of being seen unfavorably, due to a much smaller social circle in which self-expression can be safely achieved.
I have no problem with questions or discussion. Accusation, stereotyping, and essential insult in the thread *is*, however, a problem. The discussions forum is intended toward a mature userbase. Put that maturity on display in the form of polite questions, rather than hypothetical statements or off-color commentry.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As soon as a piece of art is brought into existence, it falls under automatic copyright, to the artist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right which is sensible and most humans are going to be fine with individual pieces being copyrighted. But but, what I see alot of the time is that then the <i>idea</i> is presumed to fall under copyright. So in the aforementioned case of the dog with a purple/white color scheme, should someone else draw a purple and white dog or dogperson we suddenly hear the cries of "art theft" - even in the absence of something like tracing or what have you. Which strikes me as absurd because having a different colored dog is nowhere near as derivative as having a balto-lookin' canine in the first place. Again, the underlying concepts of almost any furry piece are predetermined, even down to the lack of background. So copyrighting minute variations of ideas in between them is silly - like if Marvel sued D.C. for having for having a guy in a blue suit with red gloves (assuming there's a marvel superhero with a blue suit and red gloves).
Allurhiveetc: oh totally, none of these faults are unique to furrylandia, and I certainly don't go out of my way to hang out with 1337kiddiez and people with AIM away messages like "cutting, brb". However there's something of a perfect storm of faults in furry.
And at the end of the day, the worst part is that it's all so boring. Yes that's a cute wolf person, just like the other 6 billion wolf person drawings out there - anything else? No?
"Character theft" is a prolific thing, yes. But that's true in pretty much any community (Sonic fandom, step forward). It's usually the less smart ones who are most vocal about it. Hell, a lot of them run around screaming about pose stealing as well. It's fairly stupid, but there's not really anything you can do about it aside ignore the wailing.
As for the ego stroking, you should go see what it's like in the anime community. It's a lot worse. And that's without the people who think they're hot ****, top of the barrel with their own little army of delusional fanboys.
Talesin, you offered an explination as to why there is a signifigant lack of art criticsm, and I say that your explination also adequately covered the more general opposition to criticsm that I mentioned. To quote,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lack of ... criticism is an unfortunate side-effect in a social circle mostly comprised of people whose lives already aren't doing all that hot, a good chunk of which make alter-egos as a form of escapism to distance themselves from their actual lives<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
edited August 2004
This is the 5th edit of how I want to express my thoughts on Talesin's edits. I can't find a good way to put it that wouldn't be instaclipped by Talesin, so I'm gonna talk to Nemesis Zero.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Which is, of course, the correct course of action to take, rather than posting additional flame or trollbait, or posting to protest moderational action.
Do any of them actually wear fur?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->?
And
I'm a human trapped inside of another human's body. Does this qualify me as a type of furball?
Tal, you've clipped every post that objects or challenges your worldview.
This is the dicussion forums. We poke a few holes in each other's arguments, the other party adapts and logically explains itself.
My religious convictions contradict yours, and unless we're all going to be idiots and say we're both right, there has to be some sort of discussion, where we investigate each other's reasoning. It's a symbiotic relationship. I've learned about and refined my own ability to articulate my faith as a result of this forum, in no small part due to the fact that several members have outright attacked Christianity, and Christian principles. Nobody deleted their posts, and I'm glad!
If you're going to clip out every post that contradicts or challenge someone else's ideas, you may as well rename this section the "Vanilla Corner: Home of agreement and not much else."
Somehow I dont think he did it solely on the basis that you guys disagreed with him. Several of my posts got deleted too, and he did what he said he was going to do. Much of the discussion was heading dangerously close to religious... stuff. There were several insults flung as well.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 28 2004, 09:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 28 2004, 09:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Weird question for furries of the day:
Do any of them actually wear fur?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->?
And
I'm a human trapped inside of another human's body. Does this qualify me as a type of furball? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. i don't wear fur. i find it tacky o_O
2. i don't know/get it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Wonderful. As noted, if you feel that an action is abusive (as in, unwarranted) then PMing the mod in question, or NemesisZero is the correct course of action, or e-mailing the abuse@natural-selection.org address.
Also note, this is a 'Discussions' forum, not a 'debates' or 'free trolling' forum. A discussion is assumed to be carried out with a level of maturity and somewhat of an open mind. A debate is entered into with a definite endpoint to be worked toward, and the only questions asked are either veiled insults or hypotheticals intended to lead the topic toward your particular ideology.
Feel free to discuss. When the thread starts derail due to off-topic posting or trollish posting behaviour, neccessary steps will be taken. It is also unneccessary to post 'PMed NemesisZero' upon doing so. It, in fact, defeats the purpose. Assume a number of people did, as their posts have been snipped away as being both off-topic and pointless.
If debates never took place in here I wouldn't keep coming back. People have a standpoint on most issues, and while I have learned quite a few things in this forum, I go into allot of topics with my mind made up at first. Unless someone can change that, hence the “discussion” becomes more of a “debate” the two are often interchangeable.
I don't think anything in this topic qualifies as abuse, because I thought it was a stupid topic to begin with. You can't honestly expect someone to say "I'm an animal trapped in a humans body" in all seriousness, and then expect no one to say something to counter that, in a way that the animal/person won't be at least slightly offended by.
However I to be fair, I support Bush for president (see sig <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->), and on these forums he's not a real popular guy, but something tells me that if I deleted every anti-Bush post I found, and I have found allot, I wouldn't be a mod for very long.
Currently I fall into the casual furry category. I enjoy films, games, comics and other art mediums with animal characters. I have a few furry friends who are ok to be around, but for the most part I ignore the fandom at large.
I used to be more active in the fandom, but a few things changed that. Namely, the majority of furries I talked did the same things to me that became annoying.
First: They would try to convince me I am actually **** when I know I am straight.
Second: Try to convince I should enjoy spooge art. I'm sorry, minotaur/fox sex doesn't do it for me. It qualifies as a personal taste issue, so I wish people wouldn't try and force their opinion on that.
Third: I was told and I "can't" be politically conservative and furry by a large number of people. I wasn't aware that liking certain types of art, etc. signed me up to a given political ideology.
Fourth: The juvenile bickering that occured. Nothing is more annoying to signing on to every message board you frequent to see people arguing about how someone stole their art or is copying their "fursona." Invariably this descends into both sides camps of friends trading blows. Its just dumb to argue at that level over the internet.
Fifth: I must campaign for animal rights. I disagree with the politics of most animal rights groups. Again, I didn't sign up to your political ideology when I started liking furry art.
My point, the furry fandom needs to relax and be fun again, instead of being a giant "you must be x to be furry." I can look at art and talk to the few furs I get along while not being involved in the community and spare myself a ton of drama and annoyance.
Don't fursecute me fur ( <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) having a furry fursona you nazi.
This is getting hilarious, since this post is going to get clipped, might aswell say what's on my mind.
It's one thing to be into the artwork and all, I admit...some of the stuff is cool do a degree. I especially dig Egyptian art. (not sure if stuff like Horus/Anubis would come near the 'furry' section of animal/human crossbreeds.) But to actually think you are an animal in a persons body, how could you tell that to someone and keep a straight face? Or do you 'furry' kids meet up in public restrooms and stuff like that? Or is it like trekkies at a convention, how is it you get in touch with one another? I know if I went up to some random person, told them I was certain I was a Dalmation in the body of a 16 year old kid, they wouldnt hesitate to do one of three things: flee, beat me sensless, laugh hysterically.
I agree with Perdition, I don't have a problem with liking the art and such, I mean that's been in human history for centuries: The Anubis, the Centaurs, the Minotaur, several greek gods like Pan, IIRC there were several oriental myths about serpentine bodies w/ human features, etc. etc. etc.
It's the 'misplaced soul' that I find a little.... 'off'.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 29 2004, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 29 2004, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree with Perdition, I don't have a problem with liking the art and such, I mean that's been in human history for centuries: The Anubis, the Centaurs, the Minotaur, several greek gods like Pan, IIRC there were several oriental myths about serpentine bodies w/ human features, etc. etc. etc.
It's the 'misplaced soul' that I find a little.... 'off'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps everyone should define what they mean by "soul".
<!--QuoteBegin-Perdition Flamethrower+Aug 29 2004, 04:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Perdition Flamethrower @ Aug 29 2004, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But to actually think you are an animal in a persons body, how could you tell that to someone and keep a straight face? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Humans are creatures driven by basic needs identical to those of animals. Food and sex being some pretty powerful examples of motivators. We have bodies that have much in common with animals in the wild.
We just like to think that we're special. Except when the sh** hits the fan we tend to resort to some _very_ primal instincts.
Is it that much of a stretch to think that some feel a deep connection with this basic level of thought -and the animal forms that represent them - more than others ? I think not.
<!--QuoteBegin-<name removed>+Aug 29 2004, 05:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (<name removed> @ Aug 29 2004, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:orange'><quote of post that has been removed; moderator discussion about punishment level for its poster still pending></span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Someone who does not acknowledge that they are currently in a human body is of course delusional. That is not what is being discussed though.
Please reconsider tossing around words like "stupid" as they do nothing for your cause.
OK, that's it. I fear that this thread has gone beyond repair.
Teppla, Chem, you're being restricted from this forum since you obviously see it as yet another chat channel.
I'm sorry that this discussion has progressed this way. I'd suggest to re-post it in a month - give me an advanced warning via PM, and I'll keep a close eye on it, maybe avoiding a few of the issues encountered this time.
Comments
So back when I was twelve or thirteen (one of the two), my family got its first computer, a blazing fast Compaq 486 dx2/50, with a 1200bps modem (!!). And with it we get the INTERNET YELLOW PAGES, yes, a paper book with lists and locations of things on the internet. These were the days before google, kids. And at the same time I had just discovered the Pern series by the inimitable dirty old lady, Anne McCaffrey. And lookie here in the internet web pages there was a listing for a newsgroup called alt.fan.dragons. Imagine my pubescent joy when I found that not only did these people think winged lizards were the best thing since sliced bread, they said they <i>were</i> winged lizards. I joined in, and posted actively for a while, and then fell back out for a while, then came back, so on and so forth. And as you'd expect there was some crossover between all the dragon people and the furries, and as it happens I eventually met my first real long-term boyfriend through contact with the whole a.f.d. grouping. And he was a capital-F furry, and through him I associated with other capital-F furries and, well.
Here are some general trends about the whole thing that I found distasteful.
1. "Fursecution".
Ok so to start with wow, please, can we not make up retarded words like fursecution and furson and fursona and argh, stop it, really. That said, the furry community is just all up in boners over the idea of being the oppressed minorities of the internet. There are few things a furry likes talking about more than how they're unfairly stereotyped, put down, and otherwise bullied by the world at large. Read some furry fiction, excluding the pornography if you wish. I'll bet you $1.50 that it won't take you too long to find a furry story where animal people are the slaves/poor people/lynching victims of the world. So really what you've got is a group comprised of a majority of well-fed white males going "OMG WE ARE SO PROSECUTED <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->(((" and in the face of, say, Darfur, it rings a little hollow and offensive.
2. Thoughtcrime
A natural outgrowth of the first point is what a poster somewhere in this thread referred to as "open mindedness". That is something of a red herring, because the reality is that it is <b>never ok</b> to criticize in the world of the furry. The aforementioned bf could <i>not</i> draw. I am ******* you not, his drawings were awful grade-school scribbles on notebook paper. Which is fine, I can't draw either, but the problem was that he'd been trained by the furry community online to expect nothing but praise of his quote work endquote. So when I bought him a basic drawing book as a gift, he flipped out and got sulky and argh. If you don't believe, hunt down the furries on deviant art and read the comments they leave on each other's drawings. Circle-jerking of the ego.
3. Thoughtcrime, part 2
For whatever reason, furries have also adopted the most inconsistent and draconian interpretation of copyright law I have seen anywhere. Let's be clear here: the vast majority of furry genre illustration is derivative rather than innovative. Almost every furry picture has the following properties:
1. 1 or more characters, posed
2. No background
3. Is in a Disney style, manga style, or some hybridization of the two
Since they fancy themselves victims of constant prosecution, they stick a copyright notice on EVERYTHING. Every last one of my ex's chicken scrawls had a © on them somewhere. And the copyright is not understood to apply to individual pieces, but rather the infitesimal variations on the theme that their characters comprise. So one person copyrights a husky with a pruple/white color scheme and another could "copyright" an orange/white color scheme and another could do it to a <i>wolf</i> with a purple/white color scheme. Patterns of markings, a particular tilt to a hat, color schemes, number of tails, mix of species - all of these are, in the world, unique and highly original ideas. Never mind that they're ALL derivative of the same furry schema of animal people using the same tropes and techniques over and over and over again, THIS dog is special and unique and mine because its left front foreleg has a blotch of hot pink fur.
Which of course is inconsistent because the furry community likes to rant and rave about the RIAA etc, who are as far as I can tell, ideological allies of the furries. They both share absolute views of copyrights, unprecedented in their scope and powers in human history, so how a furry can be all DOWN WITH THE DMCA, I have no idea.
4. Laziness
My ex and so many of his friends were unemployed and chronically so. Why? Because they had the soul of a majestic unicorn or whatever, and a million past lives, etc etc and in the end, dull human work was just below them. This also tended towards a certain degree of misanthropy, as they were so far above the mundanes or what have you.
5. Jailhouse ****
There're a lot of perpetual virgins in the land of furry that eventually decide, hey, if I can stick it in Bill over there, that's almost as good as a girl, and it's not as if I'll ever touch a girl anyways. Then of course the jailhouse **** contingent likes to trade on the **** aspect of imagining themselves to be put down by the man, and it's just ugh.
Things that don't bother me:
1. Bizarre pornography
This is one of the criticisms you see levelled at the furries on a regular basis, and I've never gotten that. Shti, it's just a drawing - it's not like an actual planet was destroyed by a gigantic phallus to bring them this jerking material. I reserve my horror for... actually horrific things, like Ed Gein and Islamic militants sawing a man's head off. If some guy wants to masturbate sticking his dong in a plush rabbit, I could not care less. Dan Savage, king of sex advice columnists, touched on this a while back too. Your fetishes are your fetishes, and they're hard to control - I'm actually willing to be a little more charitable if someone just thinks wolfmen are sexier than regular men than if they just... never grew up.
All that said, remember kids:
<b>You can't fight the moonlight.</b>
As a somewhat-vaguely-esteemed figure in the community had said... "Why do I always see these majestic or cute animals? I mean, we have dragons, unicorns, wolves, tigers... when's the last time you saw someone with a displaced cockroach-spirit? Or even identified with one?"
Personally, when I'm asked to look at a piece of art, I give good forewarning that I will be pointing out the flaws primarily, as they are what the artist needs to see to improve; also, that anything I see as flawed does not need to (and cannot) be 'explained away'. If someone is looking at it for the first time, and this leg looks too big, or the hands are too small, I really don't particularly care if it's supposed to be an attempt at perspective. If it doesn't look right, it failed. This is also why I do not do art-critic duty on any major posting site.. favoring either in-person examination of the sketchbook, or an e-mailed scan.
In any case, when I was first getting into drawing (not that I've progressed too far) I fell afoul of the same 'plaster © over everything' habit. Thankfully that's passed, for the most part. Unfortunately, more of the well-known or just-developing artists are falling back into that pit.
Primarily it's to discourage art pirates, whether they be porn sites or simply others looking to trace a picture for reposting under their own name. It really doesn't help too much anyway.
And as for 'draconian art laws'... they really don't need to even mark the picture as being copyrighted. Nor sign it. As soon as a piece of art is brought into existence, it falls under automatic copyright, to the artist. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(edit) Oh, and lest I forget. <span style='color:green'>Thread cleaning complete.</span> This is not intended to degrade into yet another religious debate. It is not an area to post things along the lines of 'you deluded freaks'. It is intended to expose and help people understand somewhat as to how the furry fandom operates.
<b>If you did not read the thread all the way through, go back and do it.</b> Read each post, as they have relevance (though some may have been concatenated by the cleaning-out of useless, off-topic, or otherwise insulting lines of discussion).
Ok so to start with wow, please, can we not make up retarded words like fursecution and furson and fursona and argh, stop it, really. That said, the furry community is just all up in boners over the idea of being the oppressed minorities of the internet. There are few things a furry likes talking about more than how they're unfairly stereotyped, put down, and otherwise bullied by the world at large. Read some furry fiction, excluding the pornography if you wish. I'll bet you $1.50 that it won't take you too long to find a furry story where animal people are the slaves/poor people/lynching victims of the world. So really what you've got is a group comprised of a majority of well-fed white males going "OMG WE ARE SO PROSECUTED <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->(((" and in the face of, say, Darfur, it rings a little hollow and offensive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fail to see how any of the reasons you give as to why the furry community displeases you can be said as unique to the furry community. Yes, a lot of furries think they are persecuted, but so do most 'net goths, so does every kid who gets banned from a server for being stupid, so does basically every geek at some point in their lives.
The ego gratification in art is something that is usually worse in the furry community, but it does exist outside of it. Go to any fanart site for anything and you're bound to find someone who thinks they are awesome for drawing stick people and get **** when they get told they need work. It's worse amoungst furries because furry is so based around art that a lot more furries try to be artists, and therefore a lot more furries who can't draw try to be artists. And as for the copyright stuff, once again most art on the net suffers from that problem, some places much moreso than furries, like webcomics. In general I would say people who draw webcomics are much much more sensitive to "art theft" than anyone else including furries.
Furries are of course the only nerds to not have jobs. Although I think for most of the furries on these particular boards that would prove to be not the case.
Now the whole jailhouse **** (although to nit pick it usually ends up as jailhouse bi, I've seen a few polls on the subject and most agree that the % of actual homsexual furres is only somewhere around 15% to 20%, which is not THAT much out of sync with the general populace) thing I can kinda see why you would think that, I can count all the straight furries I know on one hand, but I have also found that as large a percentage of furry girls are bisexual as are furry guys, if not moreso, which doesn't make much sense if you are to attribute it to "jailhouse ****" since by your logic any furry girl would have her proverbial pick of the litter.
I'm just saying, furries are basically just like any other nerdly group out there on the internet, except with tails.
... the reality is that it is <b>never ok</b> to criticize ... the furry. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spot on.
To expound on this idea, I'd say that it goes much further than just art. Anyone viewing the subject in a less than favorable light, even if they are willing to partake in a civil and logical discussion, is immediately and unquestioningly painted as some sort of horrible bigot, told to shut up, etc.
...
I was going to attempt to spark some further discussion on the subject beyond "I like to draw animal people" but after consideration, I really think it's a fruitless endeavour. The vehement refusal to acknowledge criticsms or differing viewpoints is something that seems to abound anywhere there is more than one or two of them together. I'd say Talesin has offered a fair explination of why this is the case. It's too bad, really.
True, the semi-social-dysfunction (also known as having an interest that the general world does not share) does heighten that particular threat of being seen unfavorably, due to a much smaller social circle in which self-expression can be safely achieved.
I have no problem with questions or discussion. Accusation, stereotyping, and essential insult in the thread *is*, however, a problem. The discussions forum is intended toward a mature userbase. Put that maturity on display in the form of polite questions, rather than hypothetical statements or off-color commentry.
Right which is sensible and most humans are going to be fine with individual pieces being copyrighted. But but, what I see alot of the time is that then the <i>idea</i> is presumed to fall under copyright. So in the aforementioned case of the dog with a purple/white color scheme, should someone else draw a purple and white dog or dogperson we suddenly hear the cries of "art theft" - even in the absence of something like tracing or what have you. Which strikes me as absurd because having a different colored dog is nowhere near as derivative as having a balto-lookin' canine in the first place. Again, the underlying concepts of almost any furry piece are predetermined, even down to the lack of background. So copyrighting minute variations of ideas in between them is silly - like if Marvel sued D.C. for having for having a guy in a blue suit with red gloves (assuming there's a marvel superhero with a blue suit and red gloves).
Allurhiveetc: oh totally, none of these faults are unique to furrylandia, and I certainly don't go out of my way to hang out with 1337kiddiez and people with AIM away messages like "cutting, brb". However there's something of a perfect storm of faults in furry.
And at the end of the day, the worst part is that it's all so boring. Yes that's a cute wolf person, just like the other 6 billion wolf person drawings out there - anything else? No?
Well, k, I'll go do something fun now.
As for the ego stroking, you should go see what it's like in the anime community. It's a lot worse. And that's without the people who think they're hot ****, top of the barrel with their own little army of delusional fanboys.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lack of ... criticism is an unfortunate side-effect in a social circle mostly comprised of people whose lives already aren't doing all that hot, a good chunk of which make alter-egos as a form of escapism to distance themselves from their actual lives<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I encourage others to do the same.
Do any of them actually wear fur?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->?
And
I'm a human trapped inside of another human's body. Does this qualify me as a type of furball?
This is the dicussion forums. We poke a few holes in each other's arguments, the other party adapts and logically explains itself.
My religious convictions contradict yours, and unless we're all going to be idiots and say we're both right, there has to be some sort of discussion, where we investigate each other's reasoning. It's a symbiotic relationship. I've learned about and refined my own ability to articulate my faith as a result of this forum, in no small part due to the fact that several members have outright attacked Christianity, and Christian principles.
Nobody deleted their posts, and I'm glad!
If you're going to clip out every post that contradicts or challenge someone else's ideas, you may as well rename this section the "Vanilla Corner: Home of agreement and not much else."
Do any of them actually wear fur?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->?
And
I'm a human trapped inside of another human's body. Does this qualify me as a type of furball? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. i don't wear fur. i find it tacky o_O
2. i don't know/get it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also note, this is a 'Discussions' forum, not a 'debates' or 'free trolling' forum. A discussion is assumed to be carried out with a level of maturity and somewhat of an open mind. A debate is entered into with a definite endpoint to be worked toward, and the only questions asked are either veiled insults or hypotheticals intended to lead the topic toward your particular ideology.
Feel free to discuss. When the thread starts derail due to off-topic posting or trollish posting behaviour, neccessary steps will be taken. It is also unneccessary to post 'PMed NemesisZero' upon doing so. It, in fact, defeats the purpose.
Assume a number of people did, as their posts have been snipped away as being both off-topic and pointless.
4 entries found for discussion.
Entry: discussion
Function: noun
Definition: talk
Synonyms: altercation, <b>analysis, argument, argumentation, </b>bull session, bull yard, canvass, colloquy, confab, confabulation, conference, consideration, consultation, contention, controversy, conversation, debate, deliberation, dialogue, discourse, <b>dispute, dissertation, examination, </b>exchange, excursus, flap, gabfest, groupthink, huddle, interview, meet, meeting, powwow, quarrel, rap, rap session, <b>review, scrutiny, </b>symposium, <b>ventilation, wrangling</b>
Sorry but disccussion means more than "Lets be friends."
If debates never took place in here I wouldn't keep coming back. People have a standpoint on most issues, and while I have learned quite a few things in this forum, I go into allot of topics with my mind made up at first. Unless someone can change that, hence the “discussion” becomes more of a “debate” the two are often interchangeable.
I don't think anything in this topic qualifies as abuse, because I thought it was a stupid topic to begin with.
You can't honestly expect someone to say "I'm an animal trapped in a humans body" in all seriousness, and then expect no one to say something to counter that, in a way that the animal/person won't be at least slightly offended by.
However I to be fair, I support Bush for president (see sig <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->), and on these forums he's not a real popular guy, but something tells me that if I deleted every anti-Bush post I found, and I have found allot, I wouldn't be a mod for very long.
I used to be more active in the fandom, but a few things changed that. Namely, the majority of furries I talked did the same things to me that became annoying.
First: They would try to convince me I am actually **** when I know I am straight.
Second: Try to convince I should enjoy spooge art. I'm sorry, minotaur/fox sex doesn't do it for me. It qualifies as a personal taste issue, so I wish people wouldn't try and force their opinion on that.
Third: I was told and I "can't" be politically conservative and furry by a large number of people. I wasn't aware that liking certain types of art, etc. signed me up to a given political ideology.
Fourth: The juvenile bickering that occured. Nothing is more annoying to signing on to every message board you frequent to see people arguing about how someone stole their art or is copying their "fursona." Invariably this descends into both sides camps of friends trading blows. Its just dumb to argue at that level over the internet.
Fifth: I must campaign for animal rights. I disagree with the politics of most animal rights groups. Again, I didn't sign up to your political ideology when I started liking furry art.
My point, the furry fandom needs to relax and be fun again, instead of being a giant "you must be x to be furry." I can look at art and talk to the few furs I get along while not being involved in the community and spare myself a ton of drama and annoyance.
This is getting hilarious, since this post is going to get clipped, might aswell say what's on my mind.
It's one thing to be into the artwork and all, I admit...some of the stuff is cool do a degree. I especially dig Egyptian art. (not sure if stuff like Horus/Anubis would come near the 'furry' section of animal/human crossbreeds.) But to actually think you are an animal in a persons body, how could you tell that to someone and keep a straight face? Or do you 'furry' kids meet up in public restrooms and stuff like that? Or is it like trekkies at a convention, how is it you get in touch with one another? I know if I went up to some random person, told them I was certain I was a Dalmation in the body of a 16 year old kid, they wouldnt hesitate to do one of three things: flee, beat me sensless, laugh hysterically.
It's the 'misplaced soul' that I find a little.... 'off'.
It's the 'misplaced soul' that I find a little.... 'off'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps everyone should define what they mean by "soul".
But to actually think you are an animal in a persons body, how could you tell that to someone and keep a straight face?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Humans are creatures driven by basic needs identical to those of animals. Food and sex being some pretty powerful examples of motivators. We have bodies that have much in common with animals in the wild.
We just like to think that we're special. Except when the sh** hits the fan we tend to resort to some _very_ primal instincts.
Is it that much of a stretch to think that some feel a deep connection with this basic level of thought -and the animal forms that represent them - more than others ? I think not.
Someone who does not acknowledge that they are currently in a human body is of course delusional. That is not what is being discussed though.
Please reconsider tossing around words like "stupid" as they do nothing for your cause.
Teppla, Chem, you're being restricted from this forum since you obviously see it as yet another chat channel.
I'm sorry that this discussion has progressed this way. I'd suggest to re-post it in a month - give me an advanced warning via PM, and I'll keep a close eye on it, maybe avoiding a few of the issues encountered this time.