<!--QuoteBegin-Crono5788+Aug 25 2004, 07:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crono5788 @ Aug 25 2004, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 25 2004, 06:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 25 2004, 06:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bad gameplay? What parts were bad with gameplay? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fighting the Marines and Asassins felt rather boring. I mean, they were smart, but shooting them felt fruitless... They didn't flinch or anything, and they could run far faster than you could dream of. With Asassins, maybe I could understand the speed part, but the Marines are just icky. I never beat the game, the Xen levels were also boring.
I DID have fun when I gave myself some ninja speed and jumping abilities and buffed the crowbar up significantly to the point of insta-gib <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also, Opposing Force > Half-Life * 10 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You kidding me?
HL also had revolutionary design in the AI, that was FAR beyond anything else any other game had ever done...
I mean the marines used squad tactics! The AI in HL is still top notch. I can still go back and play HL today and be like "Wow nice tactics", of course I kill the marines so fast they can't even move, but whatever. When I was a noob and I was like "What the hell is this?" And they ran around me, taking a shot, me firing at them, them running for cover, then another marine ran out at me, and the one who just took cover threw a grenade... and I died.
That was a blast (no pun intended). Fighting the marines was the most fun in the game, I was litterally saddened when you learn the rines are pulling out, they are the funniest enemies in the game and were generally the toughest. The aliens were mindless, and stupid but backed a lot of power, but generally you could use simple tricks to outsmart them.
The coolest part of HL was the dynamic between the two types of enmies, aliens and marines... one offered mindless brute force vs. one with teamwork, traps, and coordinated firepower.
It was just... so much freaking fun, I really can't wait for HL2. I was really disappointed in doom3's AI, the marines either charged and sat behind a barrel while shooting. I was like "Is this for real?" as I took out my pistol and just ran out behind cover and took a pot shot at the soliders who sat there shooting, never getting hit once. Sad sad sad
And OF was just as good as HL, but only worse in the fact it was shorter.
Also when I finished HL, I had that feeling of a good game, one of "Phew it's over man..." versus "Man, that's it?!?" I was very satisfied... like I had just completed a great challenge. (course it's not that great of a challenge in retrospect... but eh)
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 25 2004, 10:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 25 2004, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, what did Valve contribute to HL's survival? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Aside from the 7 years of updates and supporting the modding community?
<!--QuoteBegin-Seph Kimara+Aug 26 2004, 01:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Seph Kimara @ Aug 26 2004, 01:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 25 2004, 10:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 25 2004, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, what did Valve contribute to HL's survival? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aside from the 7 years of updates and supporting the modding community? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They're still updating WW2 Online, and I don't see that game in the 'Top Sellers' bin.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 26 2004, 02:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 26 2004, 02:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They're still updating WW2 Online, and I don't see that game in the 'Top Sellers' bin. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then again, WW2OL <i>sucked</i>, whereas HL's single player was great for its time.
<!--QuoteBegin-MedHead+Aug 26 2004, 01:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Aug 26 2004, 01:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Half-Life got boring once I went to the surface of Earth... remember the level where there is the revolving doors, and then the remote turrets on the roof? That's where it gets boring, from what I remember.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...What? Surface Tension is the best chapter in the game!
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Aug 26 2004, 12:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Aug 26 2004, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's right up there with "Mario versus Sonic" and "Quake versus UT" in the "worst videogame debates ever" category. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The overall quality of a game is for the most part subjective. Engine capabilities are much less so. The debate can get interesting though when people are saying "big cave that I can't actually walk around in=wide open terrain!"
<!--QuoteBegin-RandomEngy+Aug 26 2004, 10:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RandomEngy @ Aug 26 2004, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Aug 26 2004, 12:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Aug 26 2004, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's right up there with "Mario versus Sonic" and "Quake versus UT" in the "worst videogame debates ever" category. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The overall quality of a game is for the most part subjective. Engine capabilities are much less so. The debate can get interesting though when people are saying "big cave that I can't actually walk around in=wide open terrain!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I doubt that anyone in here has changed their mind about which engine is "better".
Uh Forlorn. The AI in HL was not that great especially for the marines. Sure it was pretty good for its time but it was still pretty lousy. They did 3 basic things. Throw Nades. Dodge Nades. Say random crap while shooting 100% accurately. That was it No squad tactic or the like. And comparing the AI to the ones in Doom3 is assinine. You have a brain dead zombie or a animalistic beast. Gee lets use squad tactics for an imp.... OK? I'm surprised noone has noclipped outside of the tram car on the monorail level in doom3. It looks absolutely fantastic and I was much more impressed by that then some bridge with bump mapping
<!--QuoteBegin-Crono5788+Aug 26 2004, 03:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crono5788 @ Aug 26 2004, 03:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So the engine stops rendering it once you can't walk on it?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When a player can only look at something from far away, it doesn't have to be very detailed at all to look good. I thought I already went over this.
(edit) Actually the guys in the red berets were the squad leaders and they give orders to grunts to advance or fall back.
Need I remind you that Half Life blew the computer gaming world away when it was released? Everyone said "OMG, A GAME WHERE YOU DON'T JUST KILL MOBS OF ZOMBIES!!11!!!" and voted it the best game of all time. Sure, Half Life is showing it's age (7 years later), but it's a blast to go through a beat the whole game again. The game was perfectly crafted for its time, with ever changing environments and new challenges as the game progressed. The gameplay changed constantly, and the game gave you more freedom and linearity than other games.
Half Life's engine, while based on the Quake 1 engine, was "highly modified." Valve used the Quake engine as a base, and then changed it so much, I imagine that even the Id guys were surprised. Have you seen what the Hostile Intent guys have done to the engine lately? It's pretty amazing, actually, with shaders and everything.
The Source engine will probably be in use for quite a while, because Source, as stated by Valve, has been created for upgradability. When DX10 comes out, Source will be ready and updated. That's a pretty important piece of the viability of using Source.
<!--QuoteBegin-Chem+Aug 26 2004, 12:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chem @ Aug 26 2004, 12:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh Forlorn. The AI in HL was not that great especially for the marines. Sure it was pretty good for its time but it was still pretty lousy. They did 3 basic things. Throw Nades. Dodge Nades. Say random crap while shooting 100% accurately. That was it No squad tactic or the like. And comparing the AI to the ones in Doom3 is assinine. You have a brain dead zombie or a animalistic beast. Gee lets use squad tactics for an imp.... OK? I'm surprised noone has noclipped outside of the tram car on the monorail level in doom3. It looks absolutely fantastic and I was much more impressed by that then some bridge with bump mapping <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes there was. Why don't you go back and play some of the parts, like the first time you run into marines where you see a scientist get gunned down, and just shoot one solider a little bit. Just a tad. Then watch him retreat into a courner or something while another one pulls out and starts shooting you, meanwhile the one who just retreated throws a nade at you from behind a box.
It's VERY well done.
Doom 3 could have easily incorpirated HL level of AI, at the very least. Instead they made doom 1 AI of CHAAARARGGEEE which kinda works because some of the enemies are fast, but in reality you can through most area's without even being touched.
Also, talk about bad imp AI:
- You've made a game where your imps can crawl on walls, shoot fireballs, and leap.
Why didn't the imps leap onto walls around you while charging, shoot fireballs while doing something demonic like standing on the ceiling? Or why didn't the imps use teamwork? I mean they are demons it's easy enough to create a backplot where they "Think similiarly" and you have imps who get injured and leap away while another imp leaps in and takes the fray.... stuff like that.
Just a case of bad AI imo or lazy programmers. I mean all of the animations are already built into the game.
I thought the AI was pretty darn good in HL. Well, the marine AI at least. They were extremely annoying. I remember having to play through...gah...i forget the name of that level...anyway, the one with lots of trip mines and explosive boxes at leat 5 or 6 times just to get through the marines without wasting all my ammo/dying.
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
And allowing them to crawl all over the walls and stuff through the entire game would require either dozens if not hundreds more animations, or using the same environment pieces over and over again with scripts telling them where they can play the animation. Then you'd be complaining about how hacky it is. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
AI is not a simple "do this" routine. It's incredibly complex and even the act of getting a monster to pathfind through a level is a monstrous achievement. HL used info_nodes for this, and HL2 does much the same with hint nodes (basically info_nodes and aiscripted_sequences mixed into a single entity, best I can tell). Most bots in games require waypoints - a la UT or Quake 3. Doom 3 monsters can find their way themselves. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuSquirrel+Aug 26 2004, 03:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Aug 26 2004, 03:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And allowing them to crawl all over the walls and stuff through the entire game would require either dozens if not hundreds more animations, or using the same environment pieces over and over again with scripts telling them where they can play the animation. Then you'd be complaining about how hacky it is. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
AI is not a simple "do this" routine. It's incredibly complex and even the act of getting a monster to pathfind through a level is a monstrous achievement. HL used info_nodes for this, and HL2 does much the same with hint nodes (basically info_nodes and aiscripted_sequences mixed into a single entity, best I can tell). Most bots in games require waypoints - a la UT or Quake 3. Doom 3 monsters can find their way themselves. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If NS can make it so skulks can run around walls... how hard would it be to make imps run up them them too? You wouldn't have to do anything imazing; just make the imps treat the walls like a flat surface even if it was curved. Because the game is so dark and if the imps move fast enough, no one would ever notice that an imp claw is misplaced one little bit.
While doom 3's pathfind is rather advanced, it leaves a lot to be desired, just look at the final boss... the cyber demon won't fire at you across the chasm unless you are standing still. The last time I can remember where enemies won't fire at diagonals across me was... goldeneye?
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 26 2004, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 26 2004, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If NS can make it so skulks can run around walls... how hard would it be to make imps run up them them too? You wouldn't have to do anything imazing; just make the imps treat the walls like a flat surface even if it was curved. Because the game is so dark and if the imps move fast enough, no one would ever notice that an imp claw is misplaced one little bit.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahh, but in an engine offering per-pixel collision calculations on every other bit of the game... they would. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Also, while the NS addition is very cool, the mechanics of taking a much larger creature up and over varying angles creates a much more complex and noticeable problem - with small skulks, you can get away with popping the angle between a 45 degree beveled trim at the floor up to the vertical wall. When you're dealing with a player-sized bipedal object, it'll be that much more pronounced if he doesn't bend around every corner as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While doom 3's pathfind is rather advanced, it leaves a lot to be desired, just look at the final boss... the cyber demon won't fire at you across the chasm unless you are standing still. The last time I can remember where enemies won't fire at diagonals across me was... goldeneye?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I'm not claiming Doom3 (or any game)'s AI to be flawless. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I do think for the type of game id was aiming to create, the AI is perfectly reasonable, if not a bit too brutal. The endless melee attacks tossing the screen about can get very frustrating, but that's really been my only complaint. I wouldn't be so hasty as to toss D3 AI off as sub-HL - minus some of the NPC interaction stuff HL had, a lot of the basic behaviors are very similar, and when you're aiming for a base gameplay style of fairly simple nature (in almost throwback fashion, save for the darker/slower atmosphere) I find it acceptable. Any other games on the engine aiming for more modernized experiences, of course, I will hold to making some improvements, but that lies more on the team's programmers than the tech itself, and the existing navigation, if accompanied by smart monster clipping to simplify pathfinding, is plenty adequate already.
We haven't seen enough of the Half Life 2 AI to really make opinions on it. From what Valve has said concerning the subject, the AI should allow a lot of replayability. The one thing is that if Half Life 2 is fairly directed/linear at all, in terms of plot, the AI will probably not be able to be all that impressive, at least to us in game, since the AI will generally be forced, by the maps and it's programming, to act in a similar manner each time.
We'll see though. I might be completely off. I've yet to be really not impressed with anything I've seen of HL2.
Comments
Fighting the Marines and Asassins felt rather boring. I mean, they were smart, but shooting them felt fruitless... They didn't flinch or anything, and they could run far faster than you could dream of. With Asassins, maybe I could understand the speed part, but the Marines are just icky. I never beat the game, the Xen levels were also boring.
I DID have fun when I gave myself some ninja speed and jumping abilities and buffed the crowbar up significantly to the point of insta-gib <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also, Opposing Force > Half-Life * 10 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You kidding me?
HL also had revolutionary design in the AI, that was FAR beyond anything else any other game had ever done...
I mean the marines used squad tactics! The AI in HL is still top notch. I can still go back and play HL today and be like "Wow nice tactics", of course I kill the marines so fast they can't even move, but whatever. When I was a noob and I was like "What the hell is this?" And they ran around me, taking a shot, me firing at them, them running for cover, then another marine ran out at me, and the one who just took cover threw a grenade... and I died.
That was a blast (no pun intended). Fighting the marines was the most fun in the game, I was litterally saddened when you learn the rines are pulling out, they are the funniest enemies in the game and were generally the toughest. The aliens were mindless, and stupid but backed a lot of power, but generally you could use simple tricks to outsmart them.
The coolest part of HL was the dynamic between the two types of enmies, aliens and marines... one offered mindless brute force vs. one with teamwork, traps, and coordinated firepower.
It was just... so much freaking fun, I really can't wait for HL2. I was really disappointed in doom3's AI, the marines either charged and sat behind a barrel while shooting. I was like "Is this for real?" as I took out my pistol and just ran out behind cover and took a pot shot at the soliders who sat there shooting, never getting hit once. Sad sad sad
And OF was just as good as HL, but only worse in the fact it was shorter.
Also when I finished HL, I had that feeling of a good game, one of "Phew it's over man..." versus "Man, that's it?!?" I was very satisfied... like I had just completed a great challenge. (course it's not that great of a challenge in retrospect... but eh)
Aside from the 7 years of updates and supporting the modding community?
Aside from the 7 years of updates and supporting the modding community? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're still updating WW2 Online, and I don't see that game in the 'Top Sellers' bin.
Quality not quantity (my girlfriend tells me that, maybe its time to invest in some male enhancement stuff...)
Then again, WW2OL <i>sucked</i>, whereas HL's single player was great for its time.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
...What? Surface Tension is the best chapter in the game!
The overall quality of a game is for the most part subjective. Engine capabilities are much less so. The debate can get interesting though when people are saying "big cave that I can't actually walk around in=wide open terrain!"
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The overall quality of a game is for the most part subjective. Engine capabilities are much less so. The debate can get interesting though when people are saying "big cave that I can't actually walk around in=wide open terrain!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt that anyone in here has changed their mind about which engine is "better".
No squad tactic or the like.
And comparing the AI to the ones in Doom3 is assinine. You have a brain dead zombie or a animalistic beast. Gee lets use squad tactics for an imp.... OK?
I'm surprised noone has noclipped outside of the tram car on the monorail level in doom3. It looks absolutely fantastic and I was much more impressed by that then some bridge with bump mapping
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When a player can only look at something from far away, it doesn't have to be very detailed at all to look good. I thought I already went over this.
(edit) Actually the guys in the red berets were the squad leaders and they give orders to grunts to advance or fall back.
Half Life's engine, while based on the Quake 1 engine, was "highly modified." Valve used the Quake engine as a base, and then changed it so much, I imagine that even the Id guys were surprised. Have you seen what the Hostile Intent guys have done to the engine lately? It's pretty amazing, actually, with shaders and everything.
The Source engine will probably be in use for quite a while, because Source, as stated by Valve, has been created for upgradability. When DX10 comes out, Source will be ready and updated. That's a pretty important piece of the viability of using Source.
No squad tactic or the like.
And comparing the AI to the ones in Doom3 is assinine. You have a brain dead zombie or a animalistic beast. Gee lets use squad tactics for an imp.... OK?
I'm surprised noone has noclipped outside of the tram car on the monorail level in doom3. It looks absolutely fantastic and I was much more impressed by that then some bridge with bump mapping <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes there was. Why don't you go back and play some of the parts, like the first time you run into marines where you see a scientist get gunned down, and just shoot one solider a little bit. Just a tad. Then watch him retreat into a courner or something while another one pulls out and starts shooting you, meanwhile the one who just retreated throws a nade at you from behind a box.
It's VERY well done.
Doom 3 could have easily incorpirated HL level of AI, at the very least. Instead they made doom 1 AI of CHAAARARGGEEE which kinda works because some of the enemies are fast, but in reality you can through most area's without even being touched.
Also, talk about bad imp AI:
- You've made a game where your imps can crawl on walls, shoot fireballs, and leap.
Why didn't the imps leap onto walls around you while charging, shoot fireballs while doing something demonic like standing on the ceiling? Or why didn't the imps use teamwork? I mean they are demons it's easy enough to create a backplot where they "Think similiarly" and you have imps who get injured and leap away while another imp leaps in and takes the fray.... stuff like that.
Just a case of bad AI imo or lazy programmers. I mean all of the animations are already built into the game.
AI is not a simple "do this" routine. It's incredibly complex and even the act of getting a monster to pathfind through a level is a monstrous achievement. HL used info_nodes for this, and HL2 does much the same with hint nodes (basically info_nodes and aiscripted_sequences mixed into a single entity, best I can tell). Most bots in games require waypoints - a la UT or Quake 3. Doom 3 monsters can find their way themselves. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
AI is not a simple "do this" routine. It's incredibly complex and even the act of getting a monster to pathfind through a level is a monstrous achievement. HL used info_nodes for this, and HL2 does much the same with hint nodes (basically info_nodes and aiscripted_sequences mixed into a single entity, best I can tell). Most bots in games require waypoints - a la UT or Quake 3. Doom 3 monsters can find their way themselves. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If NS can make it so skulks can run around walls... how hard would it be to make imps run up them them too? You wouldn't have to do anything imazing; just make the imps treat the walls like a flat surface even if it was curved. Because the game is so dark and if the imps move fast enough, no one would ever notice that an imp claw is misplaced one little bit.
While doom 3's pathfind is rather advanced, it leaves a lot to be desired, just look at the final boss... the cyber demon won't fire at you across the chasm unless you are standing still. The last time I can remember where enemies won't fire at diagonals across me was... goldeneye?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, but in an engine offering per-pixel collision calculations on every other bit of the game... they would. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Also, while the NS addition is very cool, the mechanics of taking a much larger creature up and over varying angles creates a much more complex and noticeable problem - with small skulks, you can get away with popping the angle between a 45 degree beveled trim at the floor up to the vertical wall. When you're dealing with a player-sized bipedal object, it'll be that much more pronounced if he doesn't bend around every corner as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While doom 3's pathfind is rather advanced, it leaves a lot to be desired, just look at the final boss... the cyber demon won't fire at you across the chasm unless you are standing still. The last time I can remember where enemies won't fire at diagonals across me was... goldeneye?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I'm not claiming Doom3 (or any game)'s AI to be flawless. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I do think for the type of game id was aiming to create, the AI is perfectly reasonable, if not a bit too brutal. The endless melee attacks tossing the screen about can get very frustrating, but that's really been my only complaint. I wouldn't be so hasty as to toss D3 AI off as sub-HL - minus some of the NPC interaction stuff HL had, a lot of the basic behaviors are very similar, and when you're aiming for a base gameplay style of fairly simple nature (in almost throwback fashion, save for the darker/slower atmosphere) I find it acceptable. Any other games on the engine aiming for more modernized experiences, of course, I will hold to making some improvements, but that lies more on the team's programmers than the tech itself, and the existing navigation, if accompanied by smart monster clipping to simplify pathfinding, is plenty adequate already.
We'll see though. I might be completely off. I've yet to be really not impressed with anything I've seen of HL2.