An Explanation For Cloaking

Fin

There has been to much accusations of cheaters therefore: For the players who think cloaking works an explanation. Nada im using you as a example because its perfect. Nada is a skilled player with a crappy video card. Look at the picture and you will see that the filtering of the surroundings is so low that only the first 3 cm of his image are filtered. The rest is blurred. But take a look at the players and objects. No matter how far the object is, it is still clear. It is easier to spot a clear skulk as it is cloaking/decloaking to the blurred background and its edges. The only 2 ways to fix this are to buy everyone a good video card that not only can do 100 fps but can also manage it with AF 8/16. Or to force players not only to return the graphic settings to default but also to force them to use AF of 8/16. Of course this would mean that 50-80 fps would become 20-40.

Now why people use these settings is simple, they wants the most frames because they understands the importance of them. I have played both with low end video cards and high end video cards and trying to see a cloaker at 1600 * 1200 with AF 8 is near impossible but seeing a cloaker at 800 * 600 with AF 0 is easier.

Scribbles

GOddamn, what's he playing on.. a 486? Does he even 'have' a video card??

RaVe

You might want to edit the screenshot, has a word that isn't allowed here <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Might I ask what kind of video card he uses though? We don't have much details on what he's using <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Rhodri

Lol think you've attached the wrong picy mate <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Fin

Ill remove the pic if the admins request it or nada does. But it is the one posted in the turrets section and it fits the explanation best. Its been a while since i used thpse settings. Also you don't understand. All video cards can do what the pictured one does. The issue is the pictured video card can not do what some of the newer cards can do(Without losing frames of course). AF is a filtering method to make the image crystal clear from bottom to top. Which means there are no more progression lines(Those lines you see as you move forward). Now you can change the location of those progression lines with the GL_ commands(If i remember correctly) in half life to make them closer or with AF settings to make them disappear. Making them closer gains frames while the opposite happens otherwise. But making them closer also blurs the surrounding. There is nothing to put blame on, this is how video cards work and how you can gain extra frames.

From my experience anything alike a Geforce 2/ even Geforce 3 are not very strong with many objects in NS, and those settings above do help quite a bit.

Zek

I'm curious to see an actual screenshot of a cloaking skulk with those settings as opposed to a minimap-obscured marine base...

Nemesis_Zero

Agreed. This is quite interesting, but your screenshot is sadly not very well choosen -_-

RaVe

Actually I think you can already think of it by using the HA in the background (it's hard to see him but hey, it's better than nothing.

I think it has to do with the aliasing of the player against the blurred texture maps on the world brushes o_O
Do player model textures blur in the distance just like how the map looks by any chance?

Don't get mad at me, we don't have any pictures of said cloaked skulks yet o_O

lochness

i dont think the card really makes much a difference, you can turn that feature on and off anyway, just maybe for worse cards if its not like this than the fps gets to low.

Charge

nada r teh h4x0r, b@nt

Fin

Yes im sorry for the selection of the pic. This has to do with Anisotropic Filtering. The Objects/Players are not blurred. While cloaked the blur would be present but edges would be easier to spot and as the skulk enters and exits. For the best idea of this look at the PG in that picture. Where the pg is placed you can see the progression lines. Though as you see the surrounding around the pg blurs the pg itself does not.

If you want to experiment with this. Turn of any AF filtering and see if you can see a outlines of a moving cloaked object. The progression lines will not be as close as they are in the above picture. On the other hand if you don't use AF turn, AF on to atleast 8x and see if it is harder for you to spot a cloaked object.

waller

How do you turn AF off then?

Fin

By Default AF is turned off. You know this because you see progression lines as you move. if you have it turned on, you can turn it off in the control panel of your video card. Right click on your desktop, go to properties. Move to settings. In settings click on Advanced Settings. There you should find a 3d section in which you can pick custom settings. This will allow you to turn AA and AF on or off and to what degree. Some of the GL commands also control how far the graphic card will AF the surrounding. So that the progression lines are closer or farther then by default. If you have no advanced settings then either you have a built/in video card or you have outdated drivers.

waller

Bloody built in vid card >_<

Bluee

All the pro Quake 3 players use settings like that too even though their machines can obviously handle otherwise. The advantaged of crisp clear enemy models displayed against a low detail blurry background is just too hard to ignore.

Oddly enough, Quake 3 is one of the few communities where 'configging' like that is widely accepted. For example, CS, you aren't allowed to go to detail that low at CPL. But at Quakecon they allow detail that low in Quake 3.

w/e, I just use normal settings. I can't see cloaked skulks.

Fin

Yes but now you are accusing. Nada uses these settings to get higher frames and he has stated that his frames do drop 50 and below. I posted this so that people would stop accusing others of "i was cloaked, he shot me, he must be a hacker".

Dantemss

GeForce 2 MX 400, 64mb. 1024x768. 60 FPS. No overclock. And I don't need to set filtering so low. Dynamic lighting also isn't a problem. Almost nothing is blurry and AF isn't even on. And I can't see those cloakers. Everybody seems to have lower performance with better video cards... The only things that bother me are the particles systems, but they are so few and usually only smoke (ns_ayumi) affects me. Am I a special case or something? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

I bet I could get 72+ fps if my monitor supported a higher refresh rate at that resolution. Do you really need so low settings? I could "extract" 30fps in normal hl from a 4mb Trident video card (No opengl and too slow in D3D, so I used software. My 300MHz processor didn't like it very much <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )and +- 12 in cs, although I never tested it in NS. (lol)

Ok ok I know bad video cards exist. When HL2 comes out, can you tell me how to do that? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Fin

I do not know. I am just presenting you with something i noticed along time ago. There are also different types of filtering beside AF which effect this i am just being simplistic. Its better for people to test for themselves and see if its alike to what i noticed. And remember this doesn't mean you can see cloakers but rather their distortions are easier to spot.

Fin

Yes 100 fps is very important. It is common for skilled players with lower class video cards to attempt all possibilities to improve performance.

gazOzz

<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Aug 23 2004, 12:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Aug 23 2004, 12:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it seems higher fps affects how the engine works period, despite the fact monitors don't display the diffrence. bhoping for me is a lot harder at 60 fps then 99, despite my monitor only being 60hz at that resolution. :\ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wait command is FPS dependent... It is normal to miss your timing that you get used to at different FPS...

Maveric

You know if cloaking worked at 100% you wouldn't be able to see player outlines... it'd be like they wern't even there, which it <i>should</i> be like. (Until NS gets ported to something that can do visual refractions IE: the newer game engines) Because right now it's something like 90% cloaked at the highest level, and over-lapping areas of player models appear more "solid" thus allowing you to see the cloaked figure.

Fin

Yes but since i moved to a 9800 pro with the setting of 1600x1200 with AF 8 i can no longer see alien outlines. If i focus enough on a specific area were there is some sort of gas leaking/umbra then i maybe able to see a very light shadow. With the flashlight it also seems to work but not always(Depends were in a map). Yet with my previous card a 8500le at settings of 800x600 with AF 0 outlines of cloaked aliens under flashlight was easier to spot and even without flashlight i could pinpoint a moving outline.

Ollj

No AF, whats coming next, no textures at all?

jumpingjoda

This screenshot looks awfull! I don't care if i miss 1-2 cloaked skulks, a decent visuall quality is worth it.

Ripur

i'm not very learned on configuring vid cards. I can tell you my card is bottom of the barrel, but aside from that i just don't know. How could i sacrifice clarity for FPS if i wanted to? I run on average 15 fps (30 if i stare at a wall in an empty server) and i think if i can up this, hopping rines won't be as hard to fight for me.

AvengerX

whoa, thats way interesting and a cool idea. I mean if you intentially did it it'd be an exploit. but definitly interesting to think about it

poor nada.... too bad he has a crap vid card

Fin

<a href='http://www.techspot.com/tweaks/cstrike/cstrike-2.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.techspot.com/tweaks/cstrike/cstrike-2.shtml</a>

The third page will speak about filtering methods.

Ripur

thanks abunch

Sizer

It is def. true that lack of AF really helps spot cloakers. At any rate, I leave it off because I get horrible fps even at 640x480 16 bit. This is with an MX440 overclocked to 310/450, Athlon 1 ghz, 512 pc100 ram, Win2k SP4. Even in the worst circumstance for spotting cloakers on your end, you can still see them if you stand still.

NGE

I get about 40 fps constant, it's alright


I play on a 6 year old dell, and have almost no problem spotting cloakers

Nadagast

Yeah I switched back to normal video drivers (nVidia 5x.xx I can't remember, what Zaiko suggested) after those drivers didn't really help my FPS.... Anyway let me tell you that it really is not an advantadge at all... at least IMO. It actually hurt my eyes (for the 2 weeks I used that) after awhile since the quality was so bad. I went back to playing with standard nVidia drivers and NS looked like Doom3 running in high detail to me because I'd been playing like that for 2 weeks. Anyway... I realize that you could percieve it as an advantadge but honestly when do you fight long range battles in NS anyway?

Shrug. I really wouldnt care if someone used em against me.