Improve Third Hive Abilities
killswitch
Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13141Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13141Members, Constellation
The third hive abilities for most creatures aren't worth the 2-point cost in combat, and aren't worht a concerted effort to put up the hive. Let's see:
Xenocide - there's nothing wrong with xenocide, but it is a bit buggy. SOmetimes skulks explode beside me and I'm not injured, even though I'm knocked back. It is THE reason people get the 3rd hive usually.
Web - Web is okay too, but I'd like to see it either impentrable to grenade launchers, or seiges, but not both. Right now they can both take down webs. Also maybe increase the amount of webs in a n area. It's alos a bit buggy, in that sometimes webs show up and sometimes they don't.
Primal Scream - This is more of a "cool" Ability that a useful one. Maybe increase the length it lasts and an increase in the energy, or boost its overall effectiveness on creatures.
Acid ROcket - this ability is in serious rough shape. It scarcely tickles, and definitely isn't worth 2 points. Increase the damage and energy cost I think is a must.
Charge - Charge is okay, its damage is okay but it is difficult to use. Also you get stuck. The onos also gets stuck on buildings and such. I would suggest something a bit radical: Let the onos clip through buildings and marines. That would make charge al ittle more 'charge' like, rather than coming to a full stop at buildings and marines.
Thoughts?
Xenocide - there's nothing wrong with xenocide, but it is a bit buggy. SOmetimes skulks explode beside me and I'm not injured, even though I'm knocked back. It is THE reason people get the 3rd hive usually.
Web - Web is okay too, but I'd like to see it either impentrable to grenade launchers, or seiges, but not both. Right now they can both take down webs. Also maybe increase the amount of webs in a n area. It's alos a bit buggy, in that sometimes webs show up and sometimes they don't.
Primal Scream - This is more of a "cool" Ability that a useful one. Maybe increase the length it lasts and an increase in the energy, or boost its overall effectiveness on creatures.
Acid ROcket - this ability is in serious rough shape. It scarcely tickles, and definitely isn't worth 2 points. Increase the damage and energy cost I think is a must.
Charge - Charge is okay, its damage is okay but it is difficult to use. Also you get stuck. The onos also gets stuck on buildings and such. I would suggest something a bit radical: Let the onos clip through buildings and marines. That would make charge al ittle more 'charge' like, rather than coming to a full stop at buildings and marines.
Thoughts?
Comments
As for primal scream, acid rocket, and charge, Im completely with you.
in 1.04, you could actually kill people with charge, now it 3, people just use it to run away, pathetic really isnt it.
Whats acid rocket? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Primal scream, hmm well Im very rarely a lerk, but I dont see this ability used alot either.
It doubles your rate of fire. Halves your energy consumption. And doubles the damage of each attack. It effectively gives quad damage to every alien around you. Now, think about Quake... think how valued the quad-damage pick up is in a death match. Now realize that the lerk can more or less keep up this effect indefinably.
Just because it doesn't do direct damage doesn't make it worthless. It also applies to gorges, meaning you can speed up hive healing as well. A lerk with scream+one gorge is the equivelent of four regular gorges in terms of hive healing. AND they can provide umbra. AND take out Jetpackers.
Lerks ROCK. You just have to use them right.
Ok mate good point, I dont use lerk so I didnt actually realise the full strength of primal scream.
Charge and acid rocket still suck.
From Balance.txt:
#define kPrimalScreamDamageModifier 0.30
#define kPrimalScreamDuration 4.00
#define kPrimalScreamEnergyFactor 0.60
#define kPrimalScreamROFFactor 0.30
That seems to indicate that its actual effect is somewhat less than what you describe.
Nobody fears charge anymore, instead they fear the onosesthan can charge and devour. IMO charge damage should be rised a little. Or better yet, charge should cause knockback and more damage, this would make the ability very fun.
I would luv to see rines banging over walls!
One more good reason to fear oni then. Wwtch out the bowler is coming!!11 <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo--> AAAGH....SPLAT
Actually:
Primal scream gives you 1/3 more damage, 1/3 faster RoF, and, even though it says it gives a 60% faster energy gain, PS does NOTHING with energy gain. It used to give a boost to speed, thats gone. Primal scream is pretty good, but not as good as it should be.
Xeno: Yeah, it is a bit buggy. If someone explodes under/over you, it wont do any damage. And sometimes it just doesnt do damage. Fix those bugs, and raise damage to 300. This way, it can kill any LA marine.
Webs: Meh, they're ok, but I still like the idea of moving them to hive 2, getting rid of bilebomb, and giving the gorge an attack called Web Bomb: Web bomb uses 30% energy. It is launched like bilebomb. Any marine inside the splash will recieve 10 damage, and will be stunned for .66 seconds.
Primal Scream: Add a 25% boost to speed, and a 60% energy gain increase.
Acid Rocket: Make acid rocket do 75 damage, since it is a game finisher (in 1.04, it did 50 damage, and was available at hive 2). Then raise the energy cost to 15% energy.
Charge: Back when it was FPS dependent, you could do 1000 damage/second. Now, you do 320 damage/second. Just raise damage to 520/second (thats 200 extra damage).
or brought back to a hive 2 ability
Web- Seems ok, but it's impossible to kill a hive with 2+ gorges healing it and a decent alien team. There should be some change to hive healing, but web is ok.
Primal Scream- Going to be beefed a lot on beta 5.
Acid Rocket- The worst ability in the game? :/ Something needs to be done. Maybe it can be replaced.
Charge- Dmg is ok, it's not intended to kill things. But it should push marines away (not structures or clip through). If someone feels it needs a boost so that it kills marines, maybe the onos should be unable to gore while using it?
Actually:
Primal scream gives you 1/3 more damage, 1/3 faster RoF, and, even though it says it gives a 60% faster energy gain, PS does NOTHING with energy gain. It used to give a boost to speed, thats gone. Primal scream is pretty good, but not as good as it should be.
Xeno: Yeah, it is a bit buggy. If someone explodes under/over you, it wont do any damage. And sometimes it just doesnt do damage. Fix those bugs, and raise damage to 300. This way, it can kill any LA marine.
Webs: Meh, they're ok, but I still like the idea of moving them to hive 2, getting rid of bilebomb, and giving the gorge an attack called Web Bomb: Web bomb uses 30% energy. It is launched like bilebomb. Any marine inside the splash will recieve 10 damage, and will be stunned for .66 seconds.
Primal Scream: Add a 25% boost to speed, and a 60% energy gain increase.
Acid Rocket: Make acid rocket do 75 damage, since it is a game finisher (in 1.04, it did 50 damage, and was available at hive 2). Then raise the energy cost to 15% energy.
Charge: Back when it was FPS dependent, you could do 1000 damage/second. Now, you do 320 damage/second. Just raise damage to 520/second (thats 200 extra damage). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forget, Primal Scream DOES give a 60% energy gain, but thats only for about half a second(basically, just puts energy 1/3rd up instantly). Primal scream is just fine the way it is.
Only one I could EVER see needing change is Charge, and really, thats more of a needed change of making it actually do damage consistently, instead of only sometimes.
gorge's spit does 25 damage....
acid rocket does 25 damage.......
spit is a 1st hive ability.....
acid rocket is a 3rd hive.......
acid rocket does splash damage....
spit has a higher rate of fire than acid rocket......
......
the gorge will own you all!!!
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
gorge's spit does 25 damage....
acid rocket does 25 damage.......
spit is a 1st hive ability.....
acid rocket is a 3rd hive.......
acid rocket does splash damage....
spit has a higher rate of fire than acid rocket......
......
the gorge will own you all!!!
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spit also takes a ungodly amount of energy. Acid Rocket isn't that bad. Not to mention, acid rocket isn't easily avoided, while gorge spit is VERY easily avoided.
in ns classic
it costs 80 res to get the 2 hives then anouther 50 to go fade
which is 130 total to use acid rocket...
while to use spit it takes 10 res...
120 res difference....
in combat..
3 to go fade and anouther 3 to get acid rocket.....
6 points to use acid rocket..
to use spit 1 point to go gorge...
5 point difference.....
large differences for attacks that do the same amount of damage.
and according to the manuel it costs 12% of energy to use spit and 10% to use acidrocket, which is only a 2% differance.
*gets beating stick*
Xenocide: aside from obvious bug fixes (which really aren't that bad IMO), It needs blast damage. The third hive means aliens are assaulting marine bases, so they need BASE BREAKING abilities. There is no excuse to NOT have it deal extra damage to structures.
Web: Fine, but the map limit MUST be increased (it was lowered with Crap combat in mind... Thanks combat... thanks alot)
Primal: Duration up, thats about all thats needed
Acid Rocket: whooooo boy, how many multipul threads discussed this craptackular weapon? to many to count. As much as i like throwing gorge spit with splash damage... I feel it needs to do more. Going off the "base breaking" theme, i feel the marine damage should stay the same, but Structure damages increased WAY high. Right now a fade can spam a marine base all he wants, it takes seconds to repair the damage done with a welder. I'd like to see Acid rocket just below Bile bomb in base breaking ability, combine that with the creature that Acid rocket is attached to, and aliens suddenly can siege marine bases (OMG FAIRNESS?NOOOO!)
Charge: Sucks. Badly. Enough so to consider replacing it, or totally reworking it. There are many good ideas on how to fix it, just search for it on these forums. Onos's gore already does extra structure damage... so it doesn't need a base breaking ability. I would like to see something to increase the onos's life span while under fire. perhaps a Ignore pain ability, making the onos invulnerable to weapons fire untill adrenaline is gone. Over powered? Welcome to the THIRD HIVE ONOS, you lose... GG.
the thing that it works well with is called focus. give it a shot <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Focus doesn't affect anything not in the 1st slot.
the thing that it works well with is called focus. give it a shot <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Focus doesn't affect anything not in the 1st slot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL... The pro-current Acid rocket arguement destroyed already!
i'm so sure that will work out for the fade.
*Sidebar* A Soldier in TFC carries a rocket launcher with splash damage, and fires near his enemies feet, guarenteeing damage with every hit; the target can hardly dodge or jump enough to escape damage if you know how to work them. The compensating factors in TFC that prevent the Soldier from being more of a god than he is -- fast classes that can dodge, slower rocket travel, the ability to concuss the Soldier to throw off his aim, and the need to slowly reload after 4 shots -- are not there in NS.
That might not be a bad thing if the goal of all hive 3 weapons is to be game enders, but you should keep in mind that the current concept of the Fade demands that the player be able to conduct a fight up close and personal if he wants to play Fade, otherwise he's just wasting res. When the acid rocket was strong, and came with an earlier hive, that was not the case.
Having acid rocket damage structures more might be a good thing, since the current primary use of acid rocket is to wear down bases full of turtling marines, and it would be nice if they could do that on a shorter timetable. But beefing the AR damage vs. marines will weaken the "elite" nature of a great fade that many of you probably love (lesser skilled players will go fade and just potshot with AR without ever closing), and highly skilled players using Fade, especially those with Soldier experience, will effortlessly destroy any number of marines with AR once they get it.
Again, if Hive 3 weapons really are meant to be uber-powerful, perhaps that's fine. I just wanted to point out just how uber AR is when it deals significant damage, and how it changes the role of the Fade more or less completely.
It's ranged (unlike bite, claw, gore, charge), does splash damage (unlike spit), damages structures (unlike spore), damages marines (unlike bile bomb), both light and heavy armors (unlike spore) and jetpacks. Its damage has to be low because it can be used for everything.
Why is it ok for bile bomb to do 350 damage or whatever huge amount it is? Because it only damages structures. Why is it ok for spore to do continuous (although light) damage over a huge area? Because it doesn't hurt structures or HA. Why is okay for claws and bites and gores to do significantly more damage than AR? Because you have to get up close to use them. Everything has a counter but AR. What's the counter to AR? The *only* thing it doesn't do is status damage (knockback, stun, poison, etc). Every point of extra damage added to AR is multiplied due to its wide utility. This utility is what makes it useful, even though its damage is relatively low.
When I'm a fade and the 3rd hives goes up, I breathe a sigh of relief that I have a new option to throwing myself onto 4 HMGs and 3 SGs and 12 turrets in MS. I spam some AR and the marines start milling around like angry hornets. Some guns go away and some welders come out. Some marines get irked enough to chase me, I soften them up as they hump towards me, draw them around the corner, and claw them to death. Welders keep vanishing, so more welders get dropped instead of more HMGs or Gls.
No, AR doesn't let me own the entire marine turtle by myself in 90 seconds. Not does it remove the need for me to play smart and use my claws. But that doesn't make it useless.
If any 3rd hive ability is in dire need of a tweak, it's Charge. I almost never use it except to get from the hive to front lines more quickly, or to make a sudden lunge for a devour, or to make a fast escape. It's far from useless either, but as long as it's obviously meant to do some damage as well, I'd like to see it actually be able to do some. Or better yet, to have the sort of dramatic effect you'd expect from the onos, like knockback and stun, causing weapon dropping, crushing stuctures... stuff like that.
You *could* argue that it makes no sense for a Fade to get AR in Combat. So be it. Not all upgrades make sense for all 'upgrade targets' in CO. If I plan on being a fade, I can't, for instance, rush xeno and earn all my points for fade that way since I'll be stuck with what is admittedly a weak ability for CO (thanks to the magic of Resupply, an actual counter to AR). Just like you don't rush focus to earn all the points you need for onos.
Thank you. Acid Rocket is the answer for taking down turtles... Sometimes the other aliens just can't get in there, but thats where the AR comes in. AR should do more damage against the armor of marines, and more damage to structures...
Web needs to be limited by person. Either you only allow 1 web to be made per person (additional web shots destroy the current web that is made), OR you make web an attack like spit except it slows down the marine. Web that is placed on bad spots like ceilings will most likely NEVER get removed and it would be nice to get your own web.
Charge is fine with me, though it could use some more indicators that you are doing immense damage like screen shaking because when I run into things I hardly feel I am doing any damage.
Primal needs a buff for sure. People need to realize it's not JUST for attacking, but can be used by gorges to heal hives... etc.
Xeno is perfect, though sometimes I use it and don't have energy to get that leap before I explode...
Me like that idea!!
That way Gorges become more of attack support than before. The only problem is that they lose the only way they can bust bases through indirect fire..
Right now I still see a serious problem with two hive lockdowns, even though unlocked lifeforms were supposed to help this condition... The main problem is partially due to map design, where certain locations are simply far more defensible than others especially with turret farms. Turret farms + a cliff/lift down into the front line = no onos, and Fades will have a tough time getting a few hits in. Skulks are fodder, and Lerks can't do crap all to the turrets which are the main issue. Since it's a two hive lockdown, no bilebomb -_-
Xeno is great at the moment, but a little more damage that'll pop LAs with a high degree of success would be great, though may not be necessary. (A good Xeno SHOULD be able to take out a LA no matter what IMHO)
Gorge needs a little looking into, since Web is laregly useless when it comes to base breaking, which is SORELY needed at the Hive 3 stage
Primal Scream is, well, haven't seen it in action all that long actually. Too busy trying to break the turtled marines with their grenade squadrons and HMG firing lines.
Acid Rocket, there's plenty enough on that issue. I'm in favor of having a damage beef, and Blast type damage (2x versus buildings). Alter the adren usage if needs be but there is a need for long-ranged base breaking.
I seriously think the Onos is in need of some special effects. Global knockback is a good idea, especialyl with Charge. The thing that kills Onos is not HMGs, but the damn skulk or lerk that was sitting behind the Ono.
Another thing that I've thought about was a Hive 3 bonus to health/armour values. Since we have armour absorbtion rates increases at every hive, why not a +HP/Armour boost at Hive 3? This solves the problems of retaining some sanity in CO circumstances, yet give a BIG boost at Hive 3 for lifeforms which need it and where classic calls for it.
What I'd do like to see, like some others, is for Acid Rocket to do 2x damage to structures. Let's face it. Acid Rocket is now just a glorified spit with splash damage and travels slightly faster. Fair enough, since Spit is strong if all hits land (and that happens once in a blue moon) However, having the same amount of strength as spit against buildings is not necessarily what I envision a 3 hive weapon. Currently, AR is just that, Spit that is faster, and has splash damage.
Charge needs reworking in the sense that you slide off everything so quickly, you won't necessarily be able to deal that massive amount of damage. I propose that when an Onos is already in Charge, and is near a marine entity, that the Onos should stick to his target (aka marine) when the +forward key is held. It doesn't need much of a damage boost as Gore already does well as an anti-structure ability. We don't need Charge to mow down a whole group of HA trains for that matter. I don't see how this should apply to structures, seeing as they don't move anyway. This should also give a reason for a lone LA marine with an HMG to fear an Onos in another way other than devour.
Thank you. Acid Rocket is the answer for taking down turtles... Sometimes the other aliens just can't get in there, but thats where the AR comes in. AR should do more damage against the armor of marines, and more damage to structures... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
AR doesn't need to be beefed up because everyone wants to rambo with fade.