Co_core Rapage

illuminexilluminex Join Date: 2004-03-13 Member: 27317Members, Constellation Posts: 784
Yesterday I was gaming on my favorite server, =PT= combat only. It was co_core, and the alien team kept losing. Fast. Really, really fast. We lost around 4 times before we won once, and then we lost every other game until the map changed.

The alien team really did not suck as bad as you might think. What happened was the entire marine team would rush the right side (led by a guy that really was too good) and take out any camping or rushing skulks. So, we'd lose around 1/4 of our team right off the bat. One or two marines would start moving up the backside, while the rest of the force would camp and slowly move into the hive. Any attempts to take them from behind never worked, as you'd get a bite in before dying.

They did this round after round after round after round. One guy said "oh blah blah blah, the team sucks, blah blah blah," but that wasn't it. It was simply that there was no way to get through their team. Most of the players were pubs. I'm sure that if we were really organized we could have wolfpacked a few players from their team, but we had seriously no chance of winning 30 seconds into the game.

Round after round after round.

Any opinions on how to prevent this from happening?
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Comments

  • NGENGE Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22443Members Posts: 1,007
    Get better.



    Sorry, seems kinda unconstructive, but it's the best advice for the situation. Don't rush out stupidly- go around. Parasite and run. Hit from behind. Don't miss bites. Simple stuff.
    Smart thing of the moment:



    -since NS came out. Since the summer of 04- - "A Veteran Player"

    Good thread!?
  • illuminexilluminex Join Date: 2004-03-13 Member: 27317Members, Constellation Posts: 784
    Trust me, we did all of that. Nothing could overcome what was happening. A better respawn might have helped a little, but seriously, with 7 marines in that little corner, at least two always looking behind, we were done. No way to get through.
  • MamboKingMamboKing Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27169Members Posts: 207
    Then the marines were just the better team. How do you kill a camping skulk, anyways? You should try camping in spots where the rines don't see you.
    IPB Image
  • BerettaBeretta Join Date: 2003-08-16 Member: 19794Members Posts: 220
    Co_core = xeno map, you get xeno and you will annihilate the camping rines team smile.gif
  • ThardinThardin Join Date: 2004-01-05 Member: 25081Members Posts: 295
    If you're truely having problems then I advise some of the following:

    -Lerks, there very mean on campers.

    -Cloaking, just cloak walk on walls, now, I caps lock the following so you read it.
    DO NOT CLOAK WALK ON THE GROUND!!!!

    -Leap and silence is deadly, leap is good but don't leap in front of a group, rather the back of it.

    -A Zerging may of helped, climb on the roof towards the main way, then all jump down and B-Hop, do not try this twice if it fails the first time.

    -You could of all just rushed back and attack the CC since you mentioned it wasn't well defended, but if 2-3 marines take out you 6 skulks, you're doomed to eternal frustration. (Use the vents by the way for this technique).

    -Go for the CC, very important to get them out from camping.
  • SaltzBadSaltzBad Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26833Members Posts: 1,276
    All you can really do is hope one guy on your team gets level 3 early enough, and spores them to all hell - so that once they do try to push in, killing them becomes fairly easy.

    Ideally they wouldn't even have resupply yet :o
    If I had a million resnodes...

    "The atom bomb will never go off - and I speak as an expert in explosives."
    - U.S. Admiral William Leahy in 1945.
  • gazOzzgazOzz Work's a ... Join Date: 2003-12-25 Member: 24747Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation Posts: 590
    Trying to get 7 rines camped at that corner is plain suicide and free xp for them...

    Basic skulks can kill cc much faster than LMG rines with hive. You should have go for CC right at the beginning...

    What is best is 2 or 3 skulks left behind for taunting and keeping them busy at that corner... 4-5 skulks go for CC. Also if all of them are camping there and no-one left behind to protect CC. Be sure to tell the skulks at hive not to kill any rine no mater what... Infact they should not attack at all. Killing a skulk gives more xp than attacking the hive. No skulks or rines killed in hive means they will need much more time for 2 ups to sg. And they have to run back if they try to rescue CC, giving you more time.

    Even if they return asap without attacking the hive; you should collect 1-2 levels before dying. If you die, it is just up to these two guys left behind to protect you from spawncamping. If they succeed and you all manage to spawn; things will be different with your new ups or lifeforms.

    Try it, if you can coordinate your team. :)

    user posted image
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation Posts: 3,203
    If you're outskilled, you're outskilled.

    If rines get upgrades from a good rush, then you can expect some shotties to appear very quickly.. and once that happens you'll find getting upgrades a lot harder.

    Aliens have a hard time of it skillwise since marines can cheerfully gang up and spam fire, ensuring SOMEONE gets an upgrade. With skulks, you can try and ambush as an entire team, or pray that someone can use cloaking to sneak behind the marines and help with a pincer attack.

    Try and bite the guy everyone else is biting... that way someone is bound to get a kill. Splitting up cuts down on fire, but just leaves a team of half dead rines and no aliens spawning in with upgrades. Better to kill 2 rines and nail an upgrade if you ask me.
  • j3stj3st Join Date: 2004-06-28 Member: 29602Members Posts: 239
    yep just bite the cc.

    have a skulk look to see how many marines are on their way back. if just a few, then focus ur attack on the cc. if there's a whole group, then get ur skulks to come back and overwhelm the little corner.
  • TheGlowTheGlow Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9650Members Posts: 325
    I was in a few situations yesterday where the marines had godly accuracy and I couldnt get anyone.
    I just went around and chomped the chair till lvl 3, then snuck up behind and hid lvl 4 and faded.
    After that I was able to sweep up a bit better and some skulks were able to get some residual xp.
  • NetherNether Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12530Members Posts: 103
    Illuminex dont listen to anyone else here. core is a heavily biased maps for marines. It doesnt matter how good the teams are marines have an advantage over aliens.

    Simple as that.
  • NGENGE Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22443Members Posts: 1,007
    QUOTE (Nether @ Aug 17 2004, 03:14 PM)
    Illuminex dont listen to anyone else here. core is a heavily biased maps for marines. It doesnt matter how good the teams are marines have an advantage over aliens.

    Simple as that.

    Ahem, lemme rephrase.

    "Illuminex, everyone's retarded. Listen to me."


    smile-fix.gif smile-fix.gif smile-fix.gif
    Smart thing of the moment:



    -since NS came out. Since the summer of 04- - "A Veteran Player"

    Good thread!?
  • j3stj3st Join Date: 2004-06-28 Member: 29602Members Posts: 239
    QUOTE (Nether @ Aug 17 2004, 03:14 PM)
    Illuminex dont listen to anyone else here. core is a heavily biased maps for marines. It doesnt matter how good the teams are marines have an advantage over aliens.

    Simple as that.

    lol

    care to explain?
  • NetherNether Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12530Members Posts: 103
    To small with only 1 main room easily spammed with grenades, and being able to shoot the hive from miles away at one entrance.

    It plays just like co_angel
  • WhiteRabbitWhiteRabbit Join Date: 2004-08-08 Member: 30456Members Posts: 44 Fully active user
    Bite CC ...
    Took out CC single handed at co_core
    Spawned rine = killled = get focus = CC *hurts* = GG ALIENS!
    user posted image
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Members Posts: 931
    Core is actually very well balanced, but it's balancing is different than most. It has areas of distinct advantage. The hive room, for instance, is distinctly marine biased. The marine start, on the other hand, is distinctly alien biased.

    Like others have said, if you see the entire marine team coming from one route (if you didn't see them coming, that's fault number one.. your skulks should be out in that main hallway parasiting as they emerge) then go the other. If you can force them to fight in their spawn, you'll have the edge.

    If you feel you must take them on in that corner, learn how to use the sloping ceilings and outside wall leading to it and attack en-masse. The inner-walls (such as the one between the hive room and the main hall) seem to be like skulk fly-paper. You may be able to run along it, but you probably won't get far.

    If you intend to skulk for any length of time, go for Xeno as quickly as possible. The map encourages marines to bunch up, making them great targets for it (not to mention spores and even acid-bomb). Besides, with Xeno you're set up to lay down a few webs as you evolve further.
    Why doesn't my Lerk perch?
  • WhiteRabbitWhiteRabbit Join Date: 2004-08-08 Member: 30456Members Posts: 44 Fully active user
    True
    But main field is still more to aliens balance
    One obvious place is "double" ceiling at backway exit from hive..
    Spamm lerk spores JUST inside the corner on the front way to hive and watch ur frags going up ...
    user posted image
  • NetherNether Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12530Members Posts: 103
    heh white rabbit, I like your suggestion to bite the CC.
    That is kind of the entire and only objective for aliens.

    The marine spawn is easy to assualt but no where near as easy as the aliens hive.
    Aliens cant sit 15 metres away from the CC and damage it at range from a position that is easily defended.
    Its also an easy hive to jetpack kill, lots of room to fly around and dodge.

    The main area just focuses aliens in one place for marines to kill, there is no reason for marines to go to the lower lvl.

    Core is one of my favourite maps tbh, teaches aliens a lesson in humility as they are overpowered in co.

  • jammnojammno Join Date: 2004-01-31 Member: 25832Members Posts: 304
    Core is the easiest map to just rush to GL and then kill the hive from far away. It's very fast when 1/2 the team rushes HMG while a few GL's stay back and siege it.

    Very imbalanced sad-fix.gif
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  • NuubNuub Join Date: 2004-01-05 Member: 25059Members Posts: 419
    It's always based on the team which gets the first exp levels. For rines it requires for them to rush right away to the middle of the map, they get there as fast as the skulks. When rines get there, it'll be harder to get them away from there without higher lifeforms. The marines own the skulks almost any time, but if the alien team contains 1 or more pros, the propably will win the first rush, kill all rines and end the game in a matter of seconds. It gets more balanced if the server has FF on, rines cant shoot so blind anymore.
  • AreteArete Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5921Members Posts: 65
    Didn't read anything anyone else said after first post, so sorry if this is covered.


    Go down the ladder side, run up into their spawn and bite away at the chair for a few levels, if they don't turn back they lose, if they do, they will be disorganized and you guys can kill them.


    And leap is your friend.
  • SariselSarisel .::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation Posts: 2,192
    As in any combat map, the aliens have to rush for level 4 before it becomes easier to deal with marines. If level 2 is slow (and marines are not), aliens are pretty much screwed into spawncamp.

    In early core, best chance is to pick off weak and stray marines. Other than that, bhop rushing the marines works if you have more than 3 skulks that can do it. In other words, you start with a big hop from the platform next to the hive and collide into the campers. If there's enough space between the skulks (not behind), then at least two skulks should score kills. Some distraction from another skulk on the ground just as this movement starts boosts the success rate by about 300%.

    Mostly it takes a lot of cooperation, which is hard to find on pubs.
  • UzguzUzguz Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17016Members, Constellation Posts: 342 Fully active user
    Core is bad for public servers because most of the Alien players have absolutely no concept of, or if they do, interest in teamwork. The Marines huddle up, and the Skulks charging at them from the front one at a time are raped by a 10-foot pole.

    With a smart approach that incorporates a respectable level of teamwork, Core is actually easier for the Aliens. The problem is trying to make any approach that relies on teamwork work.
  • WhiteRabbitWhiteRabbit Join Date: 2004-08-08 Member: 30456Members Posts: 44 Fully active user
    Well as i said dont forget as lerk (or skulk parasite?) spores and "double" ceiling in center of map, i get about 5 kills at least with spores even if they have Resup, our skulks rush them , they shoot them, but spores on _hurting_ rines is what doctor said!
    user posted image
  • illuminexilluminex Join Date: 2004-03-13 Member: 27317Members, Constellation Posts: 784
    The hive has less health than the chair. The rines can take the hive out by just camping at that one point. And there is no guarantee that you will be able to kill the occassional 'rine that spawns, even with focus.

    In all seriousness, the situation the alien team was caught in just plain blew. While there were some of us that were vets of NS, there were some really good marines who knew where and when to hit every little thing. I camped the ceiling of the hive, and one guy started shooting up at me before his bullets could even start hitting me. These marines knew exactly what they were doing. Some of our best guys did the "main" rush thing mentioned above, and just began the spawn que of death. I came from behind a few times, managed to get a rine or two, but nothing could be done.

    It was simply a done deal within the first 30 seconds of the map.

    If you can't get upgrades, how are you supposed to lerk? How are you contributing to your team if you're not trying to alleviate the spawn camp?

    Most of the posts are quite applicable (and I have used many times) in normal co_core games. This wasn't normal. The solution lies in teamwork, but most of the time the alien team DOES use teamwork. They see one guy jump in, and they'll do it too. The difference is that marine teamwork feels natural; Kharaa teamwork doesn't always feel natural.
  • SariselSarisel .::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation Posts: 2,192
    Hence, if your team cannot accomplish alien teamwork, then you cannot win against a team that has good marine teamwork. Alien teamwork is different and relies a lot more on distractions and overflow.
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation Posts: 3,203
    Alien teamwork also needs people to use best judgement. Yes, if you all rush the same guy then you're teaming up, but you might not be doing the best thing.

    I see posts saying "get a lerk" but I just have to reiterate that if you can't get kills then you can't get lerks.

    If you've a decent amount of players (not really likely since regular NS kicks in at... 6v6 isnt it?) then 4 might consider attacking the incoming rines while a 5th sneaks around the back into MS and bites the chair a few times. That'll get at least one upgrade, which'll make the game somewhat easier.

    Of course if a marine is camping MS then you got to be able to kill him, otherwise you'll be trying to rush a faaar better equipped rine.
  • WhiteRabbitWhiteRabbit Join Date: 2004-08-08 Member: 30456Members Posts: 44 Fully active user
    I see there are many complaints about core so i discribe an average game on co_core on 212.42.13.20:27025
    When game begins everyone either rushes CC to get XP or camps on map, im sure ull find many places to go in center
    Then good players rush front of rine and then all others go from behind or front considering that rines are reloading, while bad players like me camp on ceilings and wait for shared XP, which will come im sure. Then if rine managed to defend both rushes everyone who camped rush again so rines wont move in direction of the hive or just wait in ambush, at this point its good if sum1 uses mic to coordinate when to attack from ambush.
    Meanwhile others respawn and rush CC and MS to get sum XP as well while ambushers keep busy those who left from rine team.

    So as u can see everyone get enough XP to evolve to lerk and get xeno: the game is in bag!
    Furthermore sum ppl can even have enough lvls to evolve to fade and this is 100% victory!

    I hope this helps those who still hate co_core for its balance
    user posted image
  • SariselSarisel .::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation Posts: 2,192
    QUOTE (WhiteRabbit @ Aug 23 2004, 01:59 AM)
    I see there are many complaints about core so i discribe an average game on co_core on 212.42.13.20:27025
    When game begins everyone either rushes CC to get XP or camps on map, im sure ull find many places to go in center
    Then good players rush front of rine and then all others go from behind or front considering that rines are reloading, while bad players like me camp on ceilings and wait for shared XP, which will come im sure. Then if rine managed to defend both rushes everyone who camped rush again so rines wont move in direction of the hive or just wait in ambush, at this point its good if sum1 uses mic to coordinate when to attack from ambush.
    Meanwhile others respawn and rush CC and MS to get sum XP as well while ambushers keep busy those who left from rine team.

    So as u can see everyone get enough XP to evolve to lerk and get xeno: the game is in bag!
    Furthermore sum ppl can even have enough lvls to evolve to fade and this is 100% victory!

    I hope this helps those who still hate co_core for its balance

    Way to make a post not having understood what the thread is about. Totally useless.
  • BirdyBirdy Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16825Members, Constellation Posts: 1,051 Fully active user
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