In Case The Doom3 Engine Is Considered
curlydave
Join Date: 2003-10-21 Member: 21855Members
Join Date: 2003-10-21 Member: 21855Members
<div class="IPBDescription">don't consider it-it's unversatile</div> I was hoping that there would be able to be a large amount of fun, team based multiplayer mods coming out for Doom3, as they did with HL, and will for HL2. (many, many HL mod teams already) There's been speculation about a possible NS2 on an engine, and the rumor of doom3 has been brought up. I'd like to say that I think this is a bad idea.
I've just discovered a completely engine-killer that will cripple Doom3's versatility, and prevent the creating of mods that have a feel other than the dark, shadowy one of Doom3. One of the trademark things about the Doom3 engine is that the lighting of maps are not compiled, rather they are all dynamic. Mappers don't have to sit for hours compiling maps, rather only several seconds. Everything casts real-time shadows, and many differetn types of lighting effects and things such as moving lights are possible with this true dynamic lighting. However, this comes at a serious cost, and ha caused a serious limitatino of the engine: lights don't bounce. Each bounce requires computation, and doing this in realtime for many lights at a time would slow the game to a crawl.
What do I mean by lights don't bounce? I mean instead of the map maker adjust how many times a light reflects off surfaces and lights new areas, all objects must have line-of site to the light in order be lit at all. There are no radiosity calculations at all, and it's these calculations that lead to realistic-looking environments. There are filters that can be used to simulate ambient light, but they go all out, and do not leave any shadows at all. It's either harsh shadows, or no shadows.
Here's a picture of the problem: <img src='http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1q71c/nobounce.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> As far as I know, there is no way to prevent this effect, other than adding lights on the other side, which is what they do on Doom3 maps. All doom3-engine based maps are doomed to be either dark, or crappy-looking.
I've just discovered a completely engine-killer that will cripple Doom3's versatility, and prevent the creating of mods that have a feel other than the dark, shadowy one of Doom3. One of the trademark things about the Doom3 engine is that the lighting of maps are not compiled, rather they are all dynamic. Mappers don't have to sit for hours compiling maps, rather only several seconds. Everything casts real-time shadows, and many differetn types of lighting effects and things such as moving lights are possible with this true dynamic lighting. However, this comes at a serious cost, and ha caused a serious limitatino of the engine: lights don't bounce. Each bounce requires computation, and doing this in realtime for many lights at a time would slow the game to a crawl.
What do I mean by lights don't bounce? I mean instead of the map maker adjust how many times a light reflects off surfaces and lights new areas, all objects must have line-of site to the light in order be lit at all. There are no radiosity calculations at all, and it's these calculations that lead to realistic-looking environments. There are filters that can be used to simulate ambient light, but they go all out, and do not leave any shadows at all. It's either harsh shadows, or no shadows.
Here's a picture of the problem: <img src='http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1q71c/nobounce.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> As far as I know, there is no way to prevent this effect, other than adding lights on the other side, which is what they do on Doom3 maps. All doom3-engine based maps are doomed to be either dark, or crappy-looking.
Comments
We get the idea that your computer is well below average. Try to avoid using such a graphically vulgar description in the future, even if it did technically only contain one swearfilter evasion.</span>
Ehh, I'm pretty sure, with today's technology that it's impossible with a true real-time lighting engine that Doom3 uses. What takes the most time in compiling a map? Radiosity calculations; it's just impossible to do it in realtime. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> The only way would be if ID released a modified engine that could compile radiosity data into a map in addition to the dynamic lighting.
Ehh, I'm pretty sure, with today's technology that it's impossible with a true real-time lighting engine that Doom3 uses. What takes the most time in compiling a map? Radiosity calculations; it's just impossible to do it in realtime. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> The only way would be if ID released a modified engine that could compile radiosity data into a map in addition to the dynamic lighting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or someone could mod in the old school method of lighting, you know, placing them yourself and such.
that would be much more effort than it's worth- if it's even possible.
further forlorn is correct the problem can be over come simply by adding lights to either fake the bounce or to merely cover the problem and while this takes time it can create a very nice end product, as I stated previously.
The calcuations of bounces is a fairly cheap, in cpu time, process even for those of us who use the half life engine. several other engines do radiosity in real time, as an example Serious Sam.
I am reasonably certain that some one in the great world of the web can find a fix for the problem. and release a so called "light bouncer" or simply to work around the effect in level design.
you can have one or the other... realtime, or pre-render...
each have their strengths, and their weaknesses..
realtime means we can have player shadows and reflections..
Solution: don't have full 'black' areas... add more "lowered" lights
pre-rendered means that we can have more 'realistic' light that seems to act much like real lights do.
Solution: sit and wait for it to compile and live with a 'not soo cutting-edge' engine.
Thats already been worked around. Fairly simply too, from what I hear.
To be honest... I still think NS would be great on Doom 3. I love how dark Doom was. I was constantly wondering where the next enemy would come from, and it was a great rush. Id REALLY like it to be the same way when you play marine. Aliens would have some sort of night-vision I suppose, to stalk their prey. Doom and NS already have such a similiar feel, if someone took an existing Doom DM map, added some hive locations and some RTs, id be very happy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If anything, I'd say this makes it more ideal for NS. And shouldn't this be locked, being its bringing up the new engine thing AGAIN for the umpteenth time?
Sort of, it's a simple matter to increase the limit. But real time lights hurt performance something tremendous. I don't think say 16 player multiplayer would be useable on todays hardware unless you disabled the flashlight.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, there is a way to change that. Its called "Put some damned lights in your map." The HL engine is the same way. You put 1- a SINGLE light in there, and tahdah, the rest of the map is pitch black.
If anything, I'd say this makes it more ideal for NS. And shouldn't this be locked, being its bringing up the new engine thing AGAIN for the umpteenth time?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a problem with this, it's called horrid performance. Light maps are OK with any number of light sources, they are not rendered in real time and cause no more lag the more completely lit they are. Doom 3's lighting literally brings the game to a crawl if you just chuck 10 lights in a room.
It makes it horrid for NS, becuase flashlights would be quite nessecary in most circumstances, just as they are in doom 3, and as nice as it would look, it would cause tremendously bad performance. You can try and solve the problem by making lights brighter, but then the increadibly hard edge of shadows looks incredibly ugly. You can try and solve the problem by adding more lights, but then it becomes unplayable.
Sort of, it's a simple matter to increase the limit. But real time lights hurt performance something tremendous. I don't think say 16 player multiplayer would be useable on todays hardware unless you disabled the flashlight. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, its just fine, it just requires a bit more of a beefier system(the usual to do SP DOOM 3, plus probably .5ghz more for the MP out of your CPU I'm guessing). Also, DOOM 3 supports a full 32 players, and actually has the ability to go to 64 if I remember correctly, but the engine was never even touched to be optimized that high.
Though HL2 now, THAT will have an amazing engine for MP. 128 players for what VALVe has optimized, everything else is all up to the server.
Movies like toy story 1 and 2 monsters inc etc where not rendering with radiosity(light bounce) effects.. If you place your lights carefully you can re-create the effect of bounce light it just requires a bit more effort.
You may be required to actually learn how to light cinematicly now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The number of polygons increase linearly with the number of players over the base map amount, the number of light sources increase linearly with the number of players above the base amount. I would "guesstimate" that when you begin talking of many players you need a computer that is 4 times as powerfull to support twice as many players comfortably.
It's not fine if you have to have a 6800 SLI just to make the game remotely playable. It's obvious why you can't use a flashlight and weapon in doom 3, they want to increase performance and they can just say it makes the game more scary(which it doesn't). It's obvious why the put a four player limit on doom 3 multiplayer. It's obvious why rooms in doom 3 single player have only 1-3 light sources. You can feel a pretty descent framerate drop when you just turn the flashlight on, it's that bad.
I think JC made a horrible design desision with doom 3, he hurried and went with fully dynamic lighting and had to cripple gameplay for the sake of it, and it's still quite ugly. It's not that dynamic lighting hasn't been possible many years ago, it's just no one was crazy enough to use it as the only type of lighting.
further forlorn is correct the problem can be over come simply by adding lights to either fake the bounce or to merely cover the problem and while this takes time it can create a very nice end product, as I stated previously.
The calcuations of bounces is a fairly cheap, in cpu time, process even for those of us who use the half life engine. several other engines do radiosity in real time, as an example Serious Sam.
I am reasonably certain that some one in the great world of the web can find a fix for the problem. and release a so called "light bouncer" or simply to work around the effect in level design. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep
To those who say it's impossible:
- Go back 6 yrs when HL was released, and if someone were to say "Man, HL looks like crap compared to the other stuff out there!"
- And someone responds: "Actually, I bet you there are plenty of ways to make this game look much better with some better textures, some dynamic lighting, and maybe spruce up the player models to something interesting, to say, oh, Aliens and Marines, and on top of that the marines would have a leaders chair from where he could redirect everyone."
- "Oh, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, next thing people will be asking for is riot sheilds in CS"
Just because YOU think it's not gonna happen, doesn't mean it won't. As long as someone thinks it's possible, then it's possible. You don't have to have a PhD in computer science to know people will do everything and anything if it seems like a good idea.
I think the bigger problem is the amount of bandwidth the multiplayer uses.
I think the bigger problem is the amount of bandwidth the multiplayer uses. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
...right
designing a game for the future after it's release, now that makes sense.
I think the bigger problem is the amount of bandwidth the multiplayer uses. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...right
designing a game for the future after it's release, now that makes sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he meant it challenges current vid cards and will force people to buy future vid cards in order to run it at 100 fps
further forlorn is correct the problem can be over come simply by adding lights to either fake the bounce or to merely cover the problem and while this takes time it can create a very nice end product, as I stated previously.
The calcuations of bounces is a fairly cheap, in cpu time, process even for those of us who use the half life engine. several other engines do radiosity in real time, as an example Serious Sam.
I am reasonably certain that some one in the great world of the web can find a fix for the problem. and release a so called "light bouncer" or simply to work around the effect in level design. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep
To those who say it's impossible:
- Go back 6 yrs when HL was released, and if someone were to say "Man, HL looks like crap compared to the other stuff out there!"
- And someone responds: "Actually, I bet you there are plenty of ways to make this game look much better with some better textures, some dynamic lighting, and maybe spruce up the player models to something interesting, to say, oh, Aliens and Marines, and on top of that the marines would have a leaders chair from where he could redirect everyone."
- "Oh, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, next thing people will be asking for is riot sheilds in CS"
Just because YOU think it's not gonna happen, doesn't mean it won't. As long as someone thinks it's possible, then it's possible. You don't have to have a PhD in computer science to know people will do everything and anything if it seems like a good idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlon to run a bounce light system you would have to have an engine/video card which can support realtime raytracing algorithms at the moment the video cards around are heavily based on a raster based shading method which doom3 uses to the max for all its lighting and shadowing calculations.
I think the bigger problem is the amount of bandwidth the multiplayer uses. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...right
designing a game for the future after it's release, now that makes sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What i runs fine now for most people it just pushes the systems abit but the good part is its architexture is much more powerfull and will allow for some very cool things in the years to come when the hardware is out to use it to its max potenial.
Everypixel on every texture is a light source, but the brightness of the pixel changes according to the brightness of all the other lights shining on it, so it sort of reflects the light.
If anyone understands what I'm talking about... well I doubt anyone does cause I suck at explaining things like this.
thanks for reading the thread before replying
consider that some of the 500.000 have upgraded their hardware by now
i would say a max. of 30% of the current steam players can play doom3 at more than 30fps on the lowest settings...
then add 11 other players for a classic ns multiplayer match on the doom 3 engine ... i guess not many pcs right now are capable of doing it...
i think there are other engines available that are better for NS2. be it HL2 or the farcry engine or something else...
but i have to say that i like steam - and so i would favor the HL2 engine