On a full server with 16 people, marines outnumbering aliens most(if not all) of the time I still managed a 34-17 kill-death ratio using only skulk with carapice and celerity. This was a non-screwed server. It's not that aliens are way underpowered or that marines are way overpowered its that: 1) Teams are almost always uneven in favor of marines. 2) Grenade launchers need to be toned down (slower RoF, less ammo, cost more, whathave you). 3) People just don't know how to play aliens efficiently, yet. 4) You look out of a skulks freaking mouth and its impossible to see where your going and bite at the same time. This REALLY pisses me off. 5) Aliens have no effective way to destroy multiple strutures quickly enough to stop a commander from rebuilding, until the 3rd hive when you get bile bomb and onos. And because of bile bomb's short range it is not extremely effective.
This is an extraordinarily fun and entertaining mod, and it has perhaps the best initial release I've ever seen for a mod. This does not mean, however, that it is perfect, and I sincerely hope that the DEV team will listen to problems I, and many others, have listed <though I suspect they are listening since they are putting out a patch so soon>.
01Chrono
Edit: This is from the sole point of veiw of an alien as I have never been marine in the hours that I have played.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pitdragon+Nov. 01 2002,22:02--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Pitdragon @ Nov. 01 2002,22:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't feel the teams are unbalanced right now. The altered resource model may make it seem that way, but when a single turret takes a decent chunk out of your resources, I'm sure we'll stop seeing these overwhelming numbers of turrets. If you think about it, marines have to build a turret factory before they can start building the turrets, while aliens can build their turrets anywhere they want.
I also see tons of players neglecting basic alien powers. Alien players NEED to get upgrades if they expect to stand any sort of chance in the later game. Defensive chambers are an absolute must to have around when placing turrets. Movement chambers in every hive are necessary to quickly get to the battlezone. Sensory chambers I have less experience with, but the upgrades they give are terrific...
I was playing fade, running out shooting acid rockets to lure the marines towards me, running back around a corner and standing still to cloak... I had level 2 cloak, and a marine was staring right at me... He finally turned around, and I hacked him to pieces. Level 3 carapace makes you a force to be reckoned with, especially as an Onos or Fade.
People also don't seem to realize that in a non-altered resource model game, marines in HA wielding HMG's would be alot less common. Individual HMG's cost around 20 points, and 200 is a high number according to Silver... So HMG's for 3 or 4 marines PLUS heavy armor is a huge investment.
I really think you people should wait for this new patch to come out before judging balance. It seems like a lot of people complaining about balance are complaining about it because the marines have huge amounts of rp. A rough comparison would be playing as zerg against marines using show me the money in Starcraft (not that NS is anything like SC).
PS- Bridger, I was a marine in the game you were talking about, and the resource model had in fact been altered. When you guys first started attacking we had around 1500 rp's, and by the time the match ended we had around 600. We could rebuild everything simply because we didn't have to worry about rp's. In a unaltered game you guys would have probably beaten us within the first or perhaps second assault.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ahh, that's definatly good to hear, i was wondering how in the HELL you held us off lol.
Also, why did all the servers alter the model in favor of the marines? Why didn't any go the other way? Or was it a bug?
I'm hoping that the problem is admins tinkering with resources, but let me relay a story to you. We were playing on ns_bast, the marines had fortified Feedwater hive, we had the other 2. The engine room had an offensive chamber every 3 feet, ditto for the refinery. We tried forever to take down the feedwater base, but they had about 5 turrets in there, finally we try a lerk/fade combo, he ran in and umbrad the turrets and i tore them up with melee, it worked took down all turrets except 1, but a marine snuck up on is and wasted us both, by the time we got back to feedwater, evey turret was rebuilt, this was a friends server, no resources tinkered with, now what did we do wrong? We pulled off practically a perfect co'ordinated team attack and won the day, but the entire base was rebuilt in seconds, by that time, they had killed the engine room hive (the one with offensive towers everywhere), it just felt so pointless to even fight back anymore, they owned us.
Another problem is that there's no friendly fire on, on any of the servers i've played on. This is a big advantage for the Marines, as they can just grenade the heck out of the place as their allies run in. Since the majority of Alien attacks are melee attacks, a Marine with grens blowing up everywhere can be pretty invincible. Taking out the grenade launcher himself is, of course, a priority, but I still believe it's too much of an exploit. Grenade damage should at least take off friendly armor. TFC had this option
scale for alien value is: bad - soso - average - great - invaluable
--DEFENSE-- Carapace: You'll be chooing this one a good bit of the time. This upgrade benifits the higher level aliens more, especally the lerk, who nearly has more armor then health. Gorges can also last a suprising amount of time under fire with this upgrade.
skulk - bad He doesn't have enough HP anyway...
Gorge - Average Gives him a bit more staying power
lerk - Great This guy needs the higher absorb% offered by the carapace, else he has a tendancy to die with armor left.
fade - Great He's a little slow and melee, so he needs the health.
Onos - Invaluable Gives him 50 more points of damage absoring armor.
Regeneration: slowly heals your alien over time. Works best for aliens with less health.
skulk - great He has little hp to begin with. level 3 regen can put you back in the fight in no time flat.
Gorge - soso Because he generally spends much time around bases, he doesn't really need the upgrade because he hangs around hives and defense chambers.
Lurk - Average Invaluable when killing turrets, a little less useful otherwise.
Fade - bad Has too much HP to make any use of it.
onos - bad Has way too much HP to make any use of it.
Redemption: Another favorite. Teleports you back to the hive when your health is low. Note that this won't allways work, allthough level 3 is the best chance. This can be annoying, however, because it can teleport you out of situations you might want to stay in.
Skulk - bad Dies almost instantly, and what's the use of saving your life when you have no cost and 80 H/A?
Gorge - bad Again, the gorge is cheap, and generally gets killed quickly. In addition, he probally needs to stay near his chambers if they get attacked.
Lerk - soso Expensive enough to make a diffrence, the main problem being your lurk may die before he has a chance to make use of the skill!
Fade - Great Fades are expensive, and take time to gestate. In addtion, they have enough H/A so that redemption won't kick in unless they are really in danger, and will have time for it to take effect.
Onos - Great Ditto, for the same reasons and then some for the Fade.
--SENSORY--
Cloaking: Makes you invisible while standing still. Works better at higher levels.
All aliens benifit greatly from cloaking, save the Onos, who is too bad ### to matter and too big to miss even if they can't see him.
Adv. Hive Sight: Makes your alien flaishlight "F" show marines and marine buildings the same as allies. Note that level 1 and 2 actually make the marines harder to spot under some cases. level 3 will make them stand out like a deer in headlights.
All classes greatly benifit from this upgrade, simply because that is not only highlights marines, but it highlights their grenades as well! This means that seeing, and evading them is a snap.
Scent of Fear: Makes all wounded marines (less then 100 H) appear on hive sight.
SoF is a little flakey, but still a good choice for any alien.
--MOVEMENT--
Adrenaline: Increases recharge rate for energy.
Skulk - bad Doesn't need the enrgy for anything anyway. whee.
Gorge - Invaluable He doesn't need to be fast or silent, but having lots of energy will help him heal and harrass with greater efficeny.
Lerk - Invaluable Makes flying and spiking much easier on the energy supply. Makes using umbra then doing anything much more effective.
Fade - Great The energy recharge is a big help for killing turrets, buildings, and annoying marines.
Onos - average Again, doesn't use energy for much of anything, however, by the time you run out, your enemies should all be dead anyway.
Celerety: Makes you FASTAR!
Skulk - Great Makes biting more difficult, but skulks have a need for speed to avoid enemy fire.
Gorge - bad Why? So he can waddle to the next hive a bit faster?
Lerk - bad Doesn't affect his fligthspeed, annoyingly slow on the ground anyway.
Fade - Great The fade is a little plodding on the ground, so this upgrade is a great help if you don't use blink.
Onos - great ROOOOARRRRRRRRRR *stomp stomp stomp* This will improve his charge speed as well. Watch out marines!
Silence - Makes you quieter. A full level 3 makes everything you do perfectly silent.
Skulk - Great Again, quiet is good for the skulk.
Gorge - bad Mostly so I don't have to listen to the sickning "slap" when his flabby body hits the ground.
Lerk - soso He's pretty silent anyway. For those who would like to be even more silent!
Fade - great He's rather hard to miss anyway, you know? However, this upgrade makes blink that much harder to follow, if the marine can't hear you behind him either.
Onos - soso The "silent onos" creeps the heck out of me, but is more a party gag then a handy upgrade. However, it does make the appearence of the Onos a BIG suprise.
And there you have it. If there are typos, they will not be corrected just now because I am really dang sleepy.
My favorite kharaa species is the skulk, hands down. I take take celerity, regeneration, and cloaking in whatever order I've been provided with. Generally, if you let like 3 out of nine people concentrate on building, or at least a good constant number, while the rest concentrate on working together to attack, it works out good. Cloaking is extremely great. People neglect scans if you don't make yourself to apparent, I just use it to hide, and defend structures. Celerity makes harrassing turrets and marines a lot easier if you zig zag. Regeneration allows you to work seperated from the rest of the group. Just cloak and regenerate... then see whats going on with the rest of the team... attack from the rear. I like onos and all, but really what I do is follow an onos into battle and just kill things as it plays the greatest distraction. Skulks are extremely versitile in what they could do, and light armor marines especially are easy to kill. Worst comes to worst, your down to one hive, one tactic that brought us victory was a group of skulks, myself included, rushing through the turrets, and killing the command center, then the infantry portals... I dunno, don't count the kharaa out. It only takes a little bit of time to get used to the workings of an alien before you find your calling. Once a group of players find their fav species, its hard to stop them.
And always make sure you're playing in a legit server.
Also, I'm a good marine player... I'm a great shot, good team worker and a good commander. But being a kharaa proved to be a lot more interesting.
The Lerk is the best alien class there is and the most fun alien class too. It also requires the most skill IMO.
I came from a match not too long ago, where I spent about 30 min in the marine base 100% cloaked and 100% silenced with redemption just in case, and I destroyed all their turrents, labs, about 5 marines, etc. just with my spikes. Then sadly, lag took over so I fell off my perch and got murdered by a passing HA HMG marine.
Hey i love the game and all but i've only ever seen the aliens win 2 games. Both when i charged in and took out the command center as a skulk <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
Im glad amongst the whiners we have some players willing to give this awesome mod a chance instead of giving up and saying "its un-balanced" etc.
I also respect the people that despite complaining, do so in a constructive critisism sort of way, im sure the Team who created this mod would be offended to these "alienz sux0r" and other harsh remarks.
GW to the playtesters and to the team, props to the other NS newbies like myself who although sometimes get owned as the Aliens, persist on gettin this learning curve sharp like a Skulks fangs/claws.
The others, take a step back, try finding a good server (i.e, hopefully good ping, and no stuffed around node settings) and play with a clear head instead of joining with the anti-alien mentality. Dont just jump on the marines team if the aliens are getting owned, try to even things up!!
i already played more than 10 maps(20h play), and i always choose alien and try to get it balanced, but its so damn hard with 4239235953 sentrys, humans spamming corridors with grenades, and what can i do to counter it ? circle arround him and attack from his back? humm with the map full of sentrys not possible, get onos ? almost impossible to get 3 hives now.
humans have a faster start and an easier job, they can win just by filling 1 hive with setrys getting some resource spots filled with sentrys and voila! a human won game.
please balance it asap, and add team balancing code, save us poor aliens from beein slain everytime.
hah aliens... marines + good commander + simple tactics.. wins every time. aliens do have minute little advantages, i almost always play aliens to boost the underdogs, but in the end one skulk killing three marines by jumping from on top of a door doesn't really mean anything(brings tears to my eyes though). people WILL get better at playing aliens but you must realize they'll also get better at playing marines. still love the game though... original, fun and professional.. great job.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bridger+Nov. 02 2002,00:32--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Bridger @ Nov. 02 2002,00:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, why did all the servers alter the model in favor of the marines? Why didn't any go the other way? Or was it a bug?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On all the altered servers I've seen, both sides were changed. Have you not been on the alien side where your resources go from 0 to 100 instantly upon spawn?
It's unbalancing because even with infinite resources, the kharaa need at least a minute to change form and research upgrades. The marines can just grab a gun and armor on the ground, spend 5 seconds getting ammo, and they're good to go.
Even on normal servers, I still see way too many turrets. The damn things are everywhere! And I rarely get more than 1 alien offensive tower kill a game, but at least the things distract the marines from more important targets, like hives and myself. A few of the maps have hives in rooms such that they might as well have put signs on the entrances saying "insert grenades here." It really sucks to watch an entire hive full of upgrade buildings go down to one round of grenade spam, and knowning that there's nothing you can do about it because the room was too small to build anywhere else.
EVERY TIME I play I go alien. I join servers where the teams are 10 marines vs 4 aliens. That is the biggest problem. As soon as the autoteambalance is added a lot of the balance issues will go away. Also, it doesn't help to convince the marines to switch teams; Aliens need as many players in the beginning as possible. They need skulks scouting out and attacking is mass quantities, and gorges getting as many resources as possible. Marines only need 2 or 3 units to install a resource miner and turret center with effective cover.
Regardless, there are ways of taking out many marines with few aliens. For instance, one of the best ways to take out a turret cluster, especially early or midway through the game (before HMGs/GLs, is a fade gorge combo. For instance, if they are building a bunch of turrets around a corner you have to get a gorge to build 2 or 3 turrets on your side of the corner, as well as a defense chamber. THEN, you use the fade an keep popping around the corner, firing acid at the turrets/marines until they die. If they charge you, you rnu behind the turrets, and bile away, or hide, then swipe at them. I did this for about a minute and a half, killed 2 turrets and 4 marines. Then I got cocky and died, but hey.
Funny thing is... after I had a game 10v10.. toe to toe late game aliens won.. (we kicked some ###:D) .. anyways... next map... it was 15v5..... 15 aliens...
The only unbalance I've seen is team size. Maybe making the ready room doors SHUT until the teams are half-assed balanced would help. EVERYONE ALWAYS GOES TO MARINES. Personally, I always jump in the random team door just cuz. I think everyone should. It's more fun that way.
The other off balance I can see is due IMO to the lag. Marines don't have to move during a lag spike. They can just point and shoot. Aliens have to reset their bearings find the enemy and run back towards them. Lag spike. Warp on past. Turn around, start running back toward marine well he's firing on you already. Damn.
Fix the lag and resource problem (though I haven't seen that one yet) and I really think all will be fine.
I was a gorge, we kicked some serious marine butt. Teams? 13 Marines, 7 Kharaa.
This is one of the most balanced games up to date, heck one of th emost balanced I've ever played. BUT, stop complaining about things that have a explanation already!
Silver Fox said its cuz of the resources beeing 2000+. TRUST HIM! He wa a PT, you were not, he is a NSGuide, you are not, He has experience, u have not.
Yes, its very frustrating after you've built a good solid defense, to see it beeing taken out by a single marine, in HA and welder and GL, and u cannot do anything, but heres the reason why I lost 4/5 of those battles:
*MY TEAMATES DOES NOTHING! *I, as a gorge(only thing I play like, its so funneh =) ) have a limited resource pool, since after securing 3 or 4 of em, I've lost em to egoistic kharaa players who just evolve and upgrade, but dont help to build up defenses, so in turn, I'm left all alone with 6 dead friends and one hive. *Marines seem to have infinite resources, and alien not. But now that has been explained. Soon fixed.
A lil tip, that most seem to be forgetting about gorge strats:
NEVER let an offensive chamber be all alone! Two defence chambers for each turret, one heals the other while the other heals the turret. then u have 3 or so turrets.
BUILD those sensory chambers and movement chamber on every spot u see, it works perfectly as an "early warning system" and above all, marines are so greedy that they will want to kill everything, giving u more time to do other things.
STAND on a ledge, almost fall down, then simply build an offensive chamber, it will drop to the ground 12 feet below u, then a defence chamber, then a offensive chamber, a movement etc. u wont ever be in the line of fire, ut your turrets will. Just watch out for telefragging as u may get caught. Best thing is, they will all be clustered, so u will have all turrets fire at the same time, even though they are behind eachother, more like ontop of eachother.
And back up your gorges, they are the main reason u can attack.
THNX to flayra, and everybody making this, not only do I get scared to death, I enjoy it =)
Just registered and thought I'd throw my two cents in:
I have been playing all alien (they seem more fun), and haven't been in a winning game yet. From reading through this thread it seems this isnt so much to do with balance issues. The current problems seem to be:
#1) Admins screwing up the resources (fixed soon and good riddance to this problem)
#2) The teams are often unbalanced (also fixed soon thank you very much)
I think the biggest problem and the reason that everyone thinks aliens are worse then marines is that they are harder to play:
#1) You have no commander to help you find your way around the map or coordinate attacks.
#2) Killing marines is just plain harder than killing aliens and takes a lot of practice to get right.
Anyway I have been having lots of fun with the mod, despite losing all the time.
Ha all of this reminds me so much of Counterstrike...how people on public servers don't like working together at all. It's funny watching some marine teams, especially the ones with bad commanders. They're FORCED to work together and they still end up being selfish.
I think that once people learn that playing the aliens isn't your standard DM game and they'll have to fundamentally alter their playing style to succeed, they'll start getting more wins. Who knows...maybe the learning curve and necessity for teamwork in NS will root out those DM fanatics and "1337 haxors" that, in my opinion, plague CS.
yes a turret + the generator cost 41 but after that is 16 rp A pop, easy nuff to lay down 4 or 5 then that area is a lost cause. do that in a potential hive area adn the aliens are screwed.
that's why all the turrets should be removed. see how the balance is with just aliens and marines. balance that out, then balance the turrets (if you ever put them back in the game).
Why not just decrease the tolerance for "too many of that specific object in this area", so marines cannot have more than a couple in a room.
Also, why is there no limit on turrets or those crappy alien "offensive buildings"? Setting a maximum limit and less tolerant density level would not weaken their usefulness, but wouldn't make them game-breaking as they are now.
Aliens have to push as hard as they can and hope that the marines have an insanely stupid commander if they even want the slightest chance of winning. As more people play, that's going to happen less and less.
There is a limit to how many offensive towers you can build, as there is the amount of web you can use in total (or in one area).
Dunno about marine turrets though <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
I think the problem is with change. Which I welcome,others are finding difficult to adjust to.
I love being alien, though sometimes frustrating. The reason is the gameplay. Its excellent, top notch. It just require different thinking than CS or DoD. Humans, their pretty easy to play and as the game itself said, pikc it when your a "newbie".
As alien, your not a tank unless your an onos. Either for that, you require guerrila and harrasment techiques. Humans require brute strength, while the aliens require pushing techinques.
Lerk(I think) I played a flying one, I think it was called Lerk(sorry for the ignorance), and I loved it. The best thing I did was swoop by their heads, land behind them, fired, and then fly behind them. This keeps them confused, totally. Hell, luck shots are the only things that really hit you and turrets are too slow to catch up unless your going too slow.
The best idea is to keep on hitting them. They can't do squat when your flying by their heads all the time. Try to use the enviorment. Crates, girders, pipes, everything. The only thing I found difficult was trying to land or slow down. Sometimes I found myself crashing into a wall because flying was abit uncontrollable. But hey, gravity sucks.
Onos: Errr...crash into the enemy? Thats all I can say really. I don't have much experiance since I don't really like being walls of meat bashing. Though, it is adreniline pumpings and scary when one crashes into your squad.
Gorge: Don't know. I never really tried one.
Skulk: Same as lurker, harrasment techniques. You are not a tank. Repeat with me people, you are not a tank. Nor can you become one. The best idea is just to annoy the hell out of your enemies. The only problem is that sometimes you can see them on the ceiling because of their claws sticking out due to the fact the model dosen't flip over or when their on walls.
Fade: Ooh, I found this a good support or defensive class. When their in numbers and covering, their hard to beat. Their acid rockets and bombs do alot of damage and it really hurts when they get behind you.
I found the best technique is to jump in and out at the enemy. Jump out, fire at turret(or human), and jump back. Its just a matter of staying out of their guns. The Blink is great when its avaliable, though a little confusing to use. But I found it very useful in combat. Especially when faced with a wall of humans.
I guess thats it, how about humans: <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/asrifle.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::asrifle::'><!--endemo-->
Normal, cookie cutter grunt: I love being the low armored guy with the normal rifle. Its just helluva fun to feel vulnerable in a tight spot.
These guys are good for cover and recon. They can get in and out fast, or provide support(Just stand back when the big fellas hit your lines). With alot of ammunition, you can do some pretty good damage. But your idea is to keep the enemies head down. Thats the best you can do. Hell, you can do some pretty good damage. Their also good for checking tunnels and key areas. Man thats creepy. "Draco, go to the waypoint and check. I thought I saw one." "Sure." *walks down long winding tunnel when something brushes past shoulder* "Huh?" *turns around* "Must have been.." *DracoPaladore killed by ----*
Grenade Launcher: Ahhh...my little bug stomper <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->. Yes, I admit that I like this gun. But, they are best in the back in my opinion. While your wall of mariens march in, you bomb the area. Make sure nothing in front of them is too tough by softening them up. From experiance, I know that this thing isn't good at killing. Just at softening. With a welder, and a nade launcher, you can go a long way.
Pistol: To be honest, I like it. When in a sticky situation, I don't want a fething welder. I want my trust sidearm! With a nade launcher, you cant fire the damn thing close. You'll only turn yourself into a scorchmark before you do any damage.
HMG: Pulveriser and good support weapon. Very useful in both offense and defense situations. When I have to hold a position, this is my best friends. I find it too slow in my opinion, so I use it only on defense. Ok guys, you move slowly. I'll go scout ahead and have all the fun.
I found reloading slow, which I think is a good thing. If it was too fast, the aliens would have no chance. Anyways, it adds to the wonderful panic factor.
Shotgun: Good for covering positions. In offense, its too wild to hit anything. But on defense this thing is pretty good since you have time to react. But I don't like using it.
The only real problem I have so far is that it can be slow 200+ to crawling at 1000+. But I live happily knowing that the Dev team is fixing that up as said so in the news. Also, us aliens are found outnumbered in all games. And whenever we ask to balance teams, we always get a:
"A good team should win no matter the numbers."
But of coarse, this was coming from a Marine with 9 other mates shooting at 4 aliens(it was five, but he was AFK). But, again that is being fixed.
To all NS players: <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/asrifle.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::asrifle::'><!--endemo--> FRAG ON!
Being an alien is the most exhilerating experience I've ever had. Having the highest ping never helped me attacking, but I managed to go on a server and just dodge turrets and enemies by running up walls, climbing the ceiling, and flying at break-neck speed. In every map there's a wealth of ways to get around and avoid being seen or shot at when you are an alien, and the challenge of just defying ten turrets' tracking systems is just... oh so sweet when you actually make it past them without a scratch.
Even so, being an alien is a marvellous experience, I encourage everyone to be an alien at least twice a day to keep the marine-fever at bay.
When the patch comes, I'll be able to not just hide, I'll be able to kill as well <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Those strategies are quite nice, but it always needs a team.
I had some quite good experience being a Gorge with Cloak, Silence and Carapace. I made Offensive and Defensive Chambers like hell, healed wounded Onos and Fades as They did hit and run tactics, and supported them with fake skulks.
With this we often win the game, but again this needs teamwork, which means some people must agree to play the weak and uninteresting looking gorge. But you will have a very important role in the Team for sure.
Also a very good Tip is to get all 3 hives as fast as possible. All Alien players should first morph into a Gorge after each find a resource. Then they can change into something else again. You should also sometimes change back to smaller forms if it is neccessary. You needn´t stay in the same form all the time.
I use Gorge/Fade most of the time. And the Skulk, but only to get fast to the hives at the beginning.
Comments
1) Teams are almost always uneven in favor of marines.
2) Grenade launchers need to be toned down (slower RoF, less ammo, cost more, whathave you).
3) People just don't know how to play aliens efficiently, yet.
4) You look out of a skulks freaking mouth and its impossible to see where your going and bite at the same time. This REALLY pisses me off.
5) Aliens have no effective way to destroy multiple strutures quickly enough to stop a commander from rebuilding, until the 3rd hive when you get bile bomb and onos. And because of bile bomb's short range it is not extremely effective.
This is an extraordinarily fun and entertaining mod, and it has perhaps the best initial release I've ever seen for a mod. This does not mean, however, that it is perfect, and I sincerely hope that the DEV team will listen to problems I, and many others, have listed <though I suspect they are listening since they are putting out a patch so soon>.
01Chrono
Edit: This is from the sole point of veiw of an alien as I have never been marine in the hours that I have played.
I also see tons of players neglecting basic alien powers. Alien players NEED to get upgrades if they expect to stand any sort of chance in the later game. Defensive chambers are an absolute must to have around when placing turrets. Movement chambers in every hive are necessary to quickly get to the battlezone. Sensory chambers I have less experience with, but the upgrades they give are terrific...
I was playing fade, running out shooting acid rockets to lure the marines towards me, running back around a corner and standing still to cloak... I had level 2 cloak, and a marine was staring right at me... He finally turned around, and I hacked him to pieces. Level 3 carapace makes you a force to be reckoned with, especially as an Onos or Fade.
People also don't seem to realize that in a non-altered resource model game, marines in HA wielding HMG's would be alot less common. Individual HMG's cost around 20 points, and 200 is a high number according to Silver... So HMG's for 3 or 4 marines PLUS heavy armor is a huge investment.
I really think you people should wait for this new patch to come out before judging balance. It seems like a lot of people complaining about balance are complaining about it because the marines have huge amounts of rp. A rough comparison would be playing as zerg against marines using show me the money in Starcraft (not that NS is anything like SC).
PS- Bridger, I was a marine in the game you were talking about, and the resource model had in fact been altered. When you guys first started attacking we had around 1500 rp's, and by the time the match ended we had around 600. We could rebuild everything simply because we didn't have to worry about rp's. In a unaltered game you guys would have probably beaten us within the first or perhaps second assault.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahh, that's definatly good to hear, i was wondering how in the HELL you held us off lol.
Also, why did all the servers alter the model in favor of the marines? Why didn't any go the other way? Or was it a bug?
the servers i've played on. This is a big advantage for the Marines, as they can just grenade the heck out of the place as their allies run in. Since the majority of Alien attacks are melee attacks, a Marine with grens blowing up everywhere can be pretty invincible. Taking out the grenade launcher himself is, of course, a priority, but I still believe it's too much of an exploit. Grenade damage should at least take off friendly armor. TFC had this option
scale for alien value is: bad - soso - average - great - invaluable
--DEFENSE--
Carapace: You'll be chooing this one a good bit of the time. This upgrade benifits the higher level aliens more, especally the lerk, who nearly has more armor then health.
Gorges can also last a suprising amount of time under fire with this upgrade.
skulk - bad
He doesn't have enough HP anyway...
Gorge - Average
Gives him a bit more staying power
lerk - Great
This guy needs the higher absorb% offered by the carapace, else he has a tendancy to die with armor left.
fade - Great
He's a little slow and melee, so he needs the health.
Onos - Invaluable
Gives him 50 more points of damage absoring armor.
Regeneration: slowly heals your alien over time. Works best for aliens with less health.
skulk - great
He has little hp to begin with. level 3 regen can put you back in the fight in no time flat.
Gorge - soso
Because he generally spends much time around bases, he doesn't really need the upgrade because he hangs around hives and defense chambers.
Lurk - Average
Invaluable when killing turrets, a little less useful otherwise.
Fade - bad
Has too much HP to make any use of it.
onos - bad
Has way too much HP to make any use of it.
Redemption: Another favorite. Teleports you back to the hive when your health is low. Note that this won't allways work, allthough level 3 is the best chance. This can be annoying, however, because it can teleport you out of situations you might want to stay in.
Skulk - bad
Dies almost instantly, and what's the use of saving your life when you have no cost and 80 H/A?
Gorge - bad
Again, the gorge is cheap, and generally gets killed quickly. In addition, he probally needs to stay near his chambers if they get attacked.
Lerk - soso
Expensive enough to make a diffrence, the main problem being your lurk may die before he has a chance to make use of the skill!
Fade - Great
Fades are expensive, and take time to gestate. In addtion, they have enough H/A so that redemption won't kick in unless they are really in danger, and will have time for it to take effect.
Onos - Great
Ditto, for the same reasons and then some for the Fade.
--SENSORY--
Cloaking: Makes you invisible while standing still. Works better at higher levels.
All aliens benifit greatly from cloaking, save the Onos, who is too bad ### to matter and too big to miss even if they can't see him.
Adv. Hive Sight: Makes your alien flaishlight "F" show marines and marine buildings the same as allies. Note that level 1 and 2 actually make the marines harder to spot under some cases. level 3 will make them stand out like a deer in headlights.
All classes greatly benifit from this upgrade, simply because that is not only highlights marines, but it highlights their grenades as well! This means that seeing, and evading them is a snap.
Scent of Fear: Makes all wounded marines (less then 100 H) appear on hive sight.
SoF is a little flakey, but still a good choice for any alien.
--MOVEMENT--
Adrenaline: Increases recharge rate for energy.
Skulk - bad
Doesn't need the enrgy for anything anyway. whee.
Gorge - Invaluable
He doesn't need to be fast or silent, but having lots of energy will help him heal and harrass with greater efficeny.
Lerk - Invaluable
Makes flying and spiking much easier on the energy supply. Makes using umbra then doing anything much more effective.
Fade - Great
The energy recharge is a big help for killing turrets, buildings, and annoying marines.
Onos - average
Again, doesn't use energy for much of anything, however, by the time you run out, your enemies should all be dead anyway.
Celerety: Makes you FASTAR!
Skulk - Great
Makes biting more difficult, but skulks have a need for speed to avoid enemy fire.
Gorge - bad
Why? So he can waddle to the next hive a bit faster?
Lerk - bad
Doesn't affect his fligthspeed, annoyingly slow on the ground anyway.
Fade - Great
The fade is a little plodding on the ground, so this upgrade is a great help if you don't use blink.
Onos - great
ROOOOARRRRRRRRRR *stomp stomp stomp*
This will improve his charge speed as well. Watch out marines!
Silence - Makes you quieter. A full level 3 makes everything you do perfectly silent.
Skulk - Great
Again, quiet is good for the skulk.
Gorge - bad
Mostly so I don't have to listen to the sickning "slap" when his flabby body hits the ground.
Lerk - soso
He's pretty silent anyway. For those who would like to be even more silent!
Fade - great
He's rather hard to miss anyway, you know? However, this upgrade makes blink that much harder to follow, if the marine can't hear you behind him either.
Onos - soso
The "silent onos" creeps the heck out of me, but is more a party gag then a handy upgrade. However, it does make the appearence of the Onos a BIG suprise.
And there you have it. If there are typos, they will not be corrected just now because I am really dang sleepy.
And always make sure you're playing in a legit server.
Also, I'm a good marine player... I'm a great shot, good team worker and a good commander. But being a kharaa proved to be a lot more interesting.
I came from a match not too long ago, where I spent about 30 min in the marine base 100% cloaked and 100% silenced with redemption just in case, and I destroyed all their turrents, labs, about 5 marines, etc. just with my spikes. Then sadly, lag took over so I fell off my perch and got murdered by a passing HA HMG marine.
A thought I had for the balance issue is to have a higher ratio for aliens to marines. Since in all the movies the aliens always outnumber marines.
I also respect the people that despite complaining, do so in a constructive critisism sort of way, im sure the Team who created this mod would be offended to these "alienz sux0r" and other harsh remarks.
GW to the playtesters and to the team, props to the other NS newbies like myself who although sometimes get owned as the Aliens, persist on gettin this learning curve sharp like a Skulks fangs/claws.
The others, take a step back, try finding a good server (i.e, hopefully good ping, and no stuffed around node settings) and play with a clear head instead of joining with the anti-alien mentality. Dont just jump on the marines team if the aliens are getting owned, try to even things up!!
Ok, nuff outta me.
Decept out.
i already played more than 10 maps(20h play), and i always choose alien and try to get it balanced, but its so damn hard with 4239235953 sentrys, humans spamming corridors with grenades, and what can i do to counter it ? circle arround him and attack from his back? humm with the map full of sentrys not possible, get onos ? almost impossible to get 3 hives now.
humans have a faster start and an easier job, they can win just by filling 1 hive with setrys getting some resource spots filled with sentrys and voila! a human won game.
please balance it asap, and add team balancing code, save us poor aliens from beein slain everytime.
release a patch asap :\
still love the game though... original, fun and professional.. great job.
On all the altered servers I've seen, both sides were changed. Have you not been on the alien side where your resources go from 0 to 100 instantly upon spawn?
It's unbalancing because even with infinite resources, the kharaa need at least a minute to change form and research upgrades. The marines can just grab a gun and armor on the ground, spend 5 seconds getting ammo, and they're good to go.
Even on normal servers, I still see way too many turrets. The damn things are everywhere! And I rarely get more than 1 alien offensive tower kill a game, but at least the things distract the marines from more important targets, like hives and myself. A few of the maps have hives in rooms such that they might as well have put signs on the entrances saying "insert grenades here." It really sucks to watch an entire hive full of upgrade buildings go down to one round of grenade spam, and knowning that there's nothing you can do about it because the room was too small to build anywhere else.
Regardless, there are ways of taking out many marines with few aliens. For instance, one of the best ways to take out a turret cluster, especially early or midway through the game (before HMGs/GLs, is a fade gorge combo. For instance, if they are building a bunch of turrets around a corner you have to get a gorge to build 2 or 3 turrets on your side of the corner, as well as a defense chamber. THEN, you use the fade an keep popping around the corner, firing acid at the turrets/marines until they die. If they charge you, you rnu behind the turrets, and bile away, or hide, then swipe at them. I did this for about a minute and a half, killed 2 turrets and 4 marines. Then I got cocky and died, but hey.
Winning team ######... gotta love em....
The other off balance I can see is due IMO to the lag. Marines don't have to move during a lag spike. They can just point and shoot. Aliens have to reset their bearings find the enemy and run back towards them. Lag spike. Warp on past. Turn around, start running back toward marine well he's firing on you already. Damn.
Fix the lag and resource problem (though I haven't seen that one yet) and I really think all will be fine.
DarkMantiZ : 48 : 11
I was a gorge, we kicked some serious marine butt. Teams?
13 Marines, 7 Kharaa.
This is one of the most balanced games up to date, heck one of th emost balanced I've ever played. BUT, stop complaining about things that have a explanation already!
Silver Fox said its cuz of the resources beeing 2000+.
TRUST HIM! He wa a PT, you were not, he is a NSGuide, you are not, He has experience, u have not.
Yes, its very frustrating after you've built a good solid defense, to see it beeing taken out by a single marine, in HA and welder and GL, and u cannot do anything, but heres the reason why I lost 4/5 of those battles:
*MY TEAMATES DOES NOTHING!
*I, as a gorge(only thing I play like, its so funneh =) ) have a limited resource pool, since after securing 3 or 4 of em, I've lost em to egoistic kharaa players who just evolve and upgrade, but dont help to build up defenses, so in turn, I'm left all alone with 6 dead friends and one hive.
*Marines seem to have infinite resources, and alien not. But now that has been explained. Soon fixed.
A lil tip, that most seem to be forgetting about gorge strats:
NEVER let an offensive chamber be all alone! Two defence chambers for each turret, one heals the other while the other heals the turret. then u have 3 or so turrets.
BUILD those sensory chambers and movement chamber on every spot u see, it works perfectly as an "early warning system" and above all, marines are so greedy that they will want to kill everything, giving u more time to do other things.
STAND on a ledge, almost fall down, then simply build an offensive chamber, it will drop to the ground 12 feet below u, then a defence chamber, then a offensive chamber, a movement etc. u wont ever be in the line of fire, ut your turrets will. Just watch out for telefragging as u may get caught. Best thing is, they will all be clustered, so u will have all turrets fire at the same time, even though they are behind eachother, more like ontop of eachother.
And back up your gorges, they are the main reason u can attack.
THNX to flayra, and everybody making this, not only do I get scared to death, I enjoy it =)
I have been playing all alien (they seem more fun), and haven't been in a winning game yet. From reading through this thread it seems this isnt so much to do with balance issues. The current problems seem to be:
#1) Admins screwing up the resources (fixed soon and good riddance to this problem)
#2) The teams are often unbalanced (also fixed soon thank you very much)
I think the biggest problem and the reason that everyone thinks aliens are worse then marines is that they are harder to play:
#1) You have no commander to help you find your way around the map or coordinate attacks.
#2) Killing marines is just plain harder than killing aliens and takes a lot of practice to get right.
Anyway I have been having lots of fun with the mod, despite losing all the time.
I think that once people learn that playing the aliens isn't your standard DM game and they'll have to fundamentally alter their playing style to succeed, they'll start getting more wins. Who knows...maybe the learning curve and necessity for teamwork in NS will root out those DM fanatics and "1337 haxors" that, in my opinion, plague CS.
"Not balanced, turrets too powerful, marines too powerful"
"Shut up, you're wrong"
Argh. <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->
Also, why is there no limit on turrets or those crappy alien "offensive buildings"? Setting a maximum limit and less tolerant density level would not weaken their usefulness, but wouldn't make them game-breaking as they are now.
Aliens have to push as hard as they can and hope that the marines have an insanely stupid commander if they even want the slightest chance of winning. As more people play, that's going to happen less and less.
Dunno about marine turrets though <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
I love being alien, though sometimes frustrating. The reason is the gameplay. Its excellent, top notch. It just require different thinking than CS or DoD. Humans, their pretty easy to play and as the game itself said, pikc it when your a "newbie".
As alien, your not a tank unless your an onos. Either for that, you require guerrila and harrasment techiques. Humans require brute strength, while the aliens require pushing techinques.
Lerk(I think)
I played a flying one, I think it was called Lerk(sorry for the ignorance), and I loved it. The best thing I did was swoop by their heads, land behind them, fired, and then fly behind them. This keeps them confused, totally. Hell, luck shots are the only things that really hit you and turrets are too slow to catch up unless your going too slow.
The best idea is to keep on hitting them. They can't do squat when your flying by their heads all the time. Try to use the enviorment. Crates, girders, pipes, everything. The only thing I found difficult was trying to land or slow down. Sometimes I found myself crashing into a wall because flying was abit uncontrollable. But hey, gravity sucks.
Onos:
Errr...crash into the enemy? Thats all I can say really. I don't have much experiance since I don't really like being walls of meat bashing. Though, it is adreniline pumpings and scary when one crashes into your squad.
Gorge:
Don't know. I never really tried one.
Skulk:
Same as lurker, harrasment techniques. You are not a tank. Repeat with me people, you are not a tank. Nor can you become one. The best idea is just to annoy the hell out of your enemies. The only problem is that sometimes you can see them on the ceiling because of their claws sticking out due to the fact the model dosen't flip over or when their on walls.
Fade:
Ooh, I found this a good support or defensive class. When their in numbers and covering, their hard to beat. Their acid rockets and bombs do alot of damage and it really hurts when they get behind you.
I found the best technique is to jump in and out at the enemy. Jump out, fire at turret(or human), and jump back. Its just a matter of staying out of their guns. The Blink is great when its avaliable, though a little confusing to use. But I found it very useful in combat. Especially when faced with a wall of humans.
I guess thats it, how about humans: <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/asrifle.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::asrifle::'><!--endemo-->
Normal, cookie cutter grunt:
I love being the low armored guy with the normal rifle. Its just helluva fun to feel vulnerable in a tight spot.
These guys are good for cover and recon. They can get in and out fast, or provide support(Just stand back when the big fellas hit your lines). With alot of ammunition, you can do some pretty good damage. But your idea is to keep the enemies head down. Thats the best you can do. Hell, you can do some pretty good damage. Their also good for checking tunnels and key areas. Man thats creepy.
"Draco, go to the waypoint and check. I thought I saw one."
"Sure."
*walks down long winding tunnel when something brushes past shoulder*
"Huh?"
*turns around*
"Must have been.."
*DracoPaladore killed by ----*
Grenade Launcher:
Ahhh...my little bug stomper <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->. Yes, I admit that I like this gun. But, they are best in the back in my opinion. While your wall of mariens march in, you bomb the area. Make sure nothing in front of them is too tough by softening them up. From experiance, I know that this thing isn't good at killing. Just at softening. With a welder, and a nade launcher, you can go a long way.
Pistol:
To be honest, I like it. When in a sticky situation, I don't want a fething welder. I want my trust sidearm! With a nade launcher, you cant fire the damn thing close. You'll only turn yourself into a scorchmark before you do any damage.
HMG:
Pulveriser and good support weapon. Very useful in both offense and defense situations. When I have to hold a position, this is my best friends. I find it too slow in my opinion, so I use it only on defense. Ok guys, you move slowly. I'll go scout ahead and have all the fun.
I found reloading slow, which I think is a good thing. If it was too fast, the aliens would have no chance. Anyways, it adds to the wonderful panic factor.
Shotgun:
Good for covering positions. In offense, its too wild to hit anything. But on defense this thing is pretty good since you have time to react. But I don't like using it.
The only real problem I have so far is that it can be slow 200+ to crawling at 1000+. But I live happily knowing that the Dev team is fixing that up as said so in the news. Also, us aliens are found outnumbered in all games. And whenever we ask to balance teams, we always get a:
"A good team should win no matter the numbers."
But of coarse, this was coming from a Marine with 9 other mates shooting at 4 aliens(it was five, but he was AFK). But, again that is being fixed.
To all NS players: <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/asrifle.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='::asrifle::'><!--endemo--> FRAG ON!
*edit* Go7 your a fag.
Even so, being an alien is a marvellous experience, I encourage everyone to be an alien at least twice a day to keep the marine-fever at bay.
When the patch comes, I'll be able to not just hide, I'll be able to kill as well <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Once more into the ventilation, dear friends.
Kind Regards - Fab
I had some quite good experience being a Gorge with Cloak, Silence and Carapace. I made Offensive and Defensive Chambers like hell, healed wounded Onos and Fades as They did hit and run tactics, and supported them with fake skulks.
With this we often win the game, but again this needs teamwork, which means some people must agree to play the weak and uninteresting looking gorge. But you will have a very important role in the Team for sure.
Also a very good Tip is to get all 3 hives as fast as possible. All Alien players should first morph into a Gorge after each find a resource. Then they can change into something else again. You should also sometimes change back to smaller forms if it is neccessary. You needn´t stay in the same form all the time.
I use Gorge/Fade most of the time. And the Skulk, but only to get fast to the hives at the beginning.